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I have put together s set of changes I would like to try for the rogue.
HERE is a description of the changes I came up with. Most of the changes are new rogue talents or alterations to existing rogue talents. I also changed the rogue's Fortitude save from bad to good.
I hope someone will try it out and let me know how it goes.
Thanks, all.
I've always found the rogue to be fine. Characters can contribute in ways other than combat. Keeping with the theme of those changes though, I would find good will instead of fort to be more in the theme of a rogue. It also may be beneficial to give the rogue a resource. Luck Knack or something of the like to ensure less abuse of power is possible. Make the powers that are use able once per day take up said resource if you use them more than once.
When I imagine Rogues; I tend to imagine Scoundrels; people whose minds and reflexes are sharp, though usually frailer in body. Therefore, I'd agree Rogue getting Will makes sense.
Honestly; I'd like it if Rogue became an Anti-Mage dedicated class. Someone who uses every trick in the book to screw with a caster; forcing concentrations with distracting banter, stealing spell components, evading lightning bolts, deceiving enchanters into thinking they are compelled, etc.
I think I'll try to use current rogue to make that.
I've always found the rogue to be fine. Characters can contribute in ways other than combat.
This is where I turn this into "one of THOSE Rogue topics" by mentioning that Rogues aren't that good at out-of-combat situations either.
I think the Greater Rogue Feint talent might be a bit much. One, it's basically free to use, as the rogue isn't using his swift actions for anything else, typically. Secondly, it turns Sap Master from arguably-the-best rogue build to indisputably-you're-a-fool-if-you-don't-take-this best rogue build. I understand you're trying to beef up the rogue, but Sap Master + Greater Rogue Feint is probably too much. At minimum, I'd remove the flat-footed condition from the Greater Rogue Feint, and just have it take away Dex to AC like a regular feint, so as not to stack with Sap Master.
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I think the Greater Rogue Feint talent might be a bit much. One, it's basically free to use, as the rogue isn't using his swift actions for anything else, typically. Secondly, it turns Sap Master from arguably-the-best rogue build to indisputably-you're-a-fool-if-you-don't-take-this best rogue build. I understand you're trying to beef up the rogue, but Sap Master + Greater Rogue Feint is probably too much. At minimum, I'd remove the flat-footed condition from the Greater Rogue Feint, and just have it take away Dex to AC like a regular feint, so as not to stack with Sap Master.
You're right about that. I'll tone it down so that it matches the Greater Feint feat.
I also wonder whether the combination of Rogue Feint and Rogue Skill Perfection might be too much. A 10th level rogue with Skill Focus (Bluff) and full skill ranks would then have a Feint bonus of +24 (+10 ranks, +3 class skill, +6 skill focus, +5 competence) before CHA modifier.
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When I imagine Rogues; I tend to imagine Scoundrels; people whose minds and reflexes are sharp, though usually frailer in body. Therefore, I'd agree Rogue getting Will makes sense.
Honestly; I'd like it if Rogue became an Anti-Mage dedicated class. Someone who uses every trick in the book to screw with a caster; forcing concentrations with distracting banter, stealing spell components, evading lightning bolts, deceiving enchanters into thinking they are compelled, etc.
I think I'll try to use current rogue to make that.
You make a good point.
My thinking was that good Will saves seem to be reserved for casters.
Thug Rogue + Sap Master + Shatter Defenses + Enforcer.
Gotta try that... Your enemies are rendered Shaken, and Stirred (In the sickened sense)
I think it would be a nice trend breaker; Monk has already started it, but some argue Monks get so many SUs with Ki Pool that they are magey
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Theconiel,
I disagree with RumpinRufus that Greater Feint being swift 1-round Dx-denial is too powerful. Compare to 5th level spells.
also, I would just give all these changes out for free to the rogue, like:
Theconiel's Rogue
Saves: REF plus one of choice
1- Sneak attack, Trapfinding, Rogue Feint
2- Rogue Talents, Evasion
3- Trap Sense, Skill Perfection
4- Rogue Talent, Uncanny Dodge
5- Improved Rogue Feint
6- Rogue Talent
7
8- Rogue Talent, Improved Uncanny Dodge
9- Greater Rogue Feint
10- Rogue Talent, Advanced Talents
11
12- Rogue Talent
13
14- Rogue Talent
15
16- Rogue Talent
17
18- Rogue Talent
19
20- Rogue Talent, Master Strike
...
next question: what are you going to do with 'dead levels' 7/11/13/15/17/19?
@rainzax, I didn't say that swift-action Dex-denial is too powerful, I said swift action flat-footed is too powerful.
In most cases there's not much difference, but when you have Sap Master there is a tremendous amount of difference.
@Theconiel, I think that Rogue Skill Perfection is really strong. I understand what you're trying to do by rethroning the rogue as "skill king", but it may be going overboard. What do you think of making the bonus equal to the relevant ability mod, with a max of 1/2 rogue level? So they basically get to add all the ability modifiers twice on skills. Just a thought.
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Theconiel,
I disagree with RumpinRufus that Greater Feint being swift 1-round Dx-denial is too powerful. Compare to 5th level spells.also, I would just give all these changes out for free to the rogue, like:
** spoiler omitted **
...next question: what are you going to do with 'dead levels' 7/11/13/15/17/19?
I'm open to suggestions.
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viz Skill Perfection.
consider granting 1/2 rogue level to all skills (class or cross-class) the rogue has maxed out (ranks = HD). I've seen another poster grant this to rogue right out of the gate, and think it is an elegant solution.
I had considered making the bonus 1/3 rogue level. I hope to have the opportunity to test it out and see what happens. I think a player in my group might build a rogue when we start Emerald Spire.
viz Skill Perfection.
consider granting 1/2 rogue level to all skills (class or cross-class) the rogue has maxed out (ranks = HD). I've seen another poster grant this to rogue right out of the gate, and think it is an elegant solution.
This means that if you progress a level and don't invest a skill point in a skill that was maxed, your ability in that skill drops instead of staying the same.
How about granting +1/2 Rogue level to a number of skills determined by your IntMod, or granting +1/2 Rogue level to skills that you have taken Skill Focus or one of the other skill-bossting feats for (Athletic, Deceitful, etc.)? Maybe also require that the skill has to be a class skill (but a class skill gained from another class or a trait also qualifies)?
* * * * * * * *
For the additional good save, I agree that Will should be the default, but allow archetypes to change which save is good (for instance, Thug gets a good Fortitude save instead).
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Theconiel,
Feel free to re-steal my rogue ideas (Cunning Rogue).
UnArcaneElection,
This is intentional. So as to grant the ability early while discouraging dipping. As rogue is the only class to get 8 hard skill points.
Im guessing im the only one who actually thinks the rogue should be a wisdom based class, it sells streetsmart to me.
I think rogue should come in each mental stat flavor.
Im guessing im the only one who actually thinks the rogue should be a wisdom based class, it sells streetsmart to me.
That goes into the arguments that people can be wise about different things, the stats being a poor representation of a person's character, and which Rogues in which stories should be the model for the PF Rogue.
I do think Wis Rogues are probably the least popular idea though.