Androids in fantasy settings: Are they overpowered


Advice and Rules Questions


Something I am working on for NeoExodus: A House Divided Campaign setting. We are adding Androids (which we call Kagans) to the setting but we are changing the racial abilities of the race. Simply put, is this race overpowered now?:

Ability Score Racial Traits: Kagan have swift reflexes and are very intelligent, but have difficulty relating to others. As a result, Kagan gain a +2 bonus to Dexterity and Intelligence, but suffer a –2 penalty to Charisma.

Size: Kagan are Medium creatures, and they have no bonuses or penalties due to their size.

Base Speed: Kagan have a base speed of 30 feet.

Languages: Kagan begin play speaking Common. Kagan with high Intelligence can choose any languages they want (except secret languages, such as Druidic).

Exceptional Senses: Kagan have darkvision and so can see perfectly in the dark to a range of 60 feet and in addition, they possess low-light vision.

Constructed: For the purposes of effects targeting creatures by type (such as a ranger’s favored enemy and bane weapons), Kagan count as both humanoids and constructs. Kagan gain a +4 racial bonus on all saving throws against mind-affecting effects, paralysis, poison, and stun effects, are not subject to fatigue or exhaustion, and are immune to disease and sleep effects. Kagan can never gain morale bonuses, and are immune to fear effects and all emotion-based effects.

Arcane Essence (Ex): Once per day as a full-round action, Kagan imbue a single small (or smaller) inanimate object with the Kagan’s arcane essence with mobility and a semblance of life. The animated object then immediately attacks whomever or whatever you initially designate. An animated object can be of any nonmagical material. This spell cannot affect objects carried or worn by a creature. This effect last 1 round per level. Objects that are imbued disintegrate in to dust and the end of the time effect of this ability.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

A bit confused. Are you asking if the Android as written by Paizo might be considered overpowered, or are you asking if we think the changes you made to them make them overpowered?


Arcane Essence seems ... wonky on some level, though I can't quite put my finger on it.


Considering how op people thought aasimar were, these are just over the top.

Treating them as humanoid allows enlarge and all that good stuff, and at the same time they still have even better defence vs charms etc.

Would make amazing wizards, which is silly coming from a robot.

Yeah... No... This is way out.

With these in game, why would you even touch a different race?


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Uh ... they're identical to PF's Androids, except for the last ability and missing that -4 penalty to Sense Motive.

Why would androids not make good wizards? PF wizardly is all about memorization and doing the same thing with precise, measured actions. It makes perfect sense.

And why play anything else ... better racial support, you want to play something that uses Charisma like a Sorcerer ...


Irnk, Dead-Eye's Prodigal wrote:
A bit confused. Are you asking if the Android as written by Paizo might be considered overpowered, or are you asking if we think the changes you made to them make them overpowered?

Sorry I am asking about the changes I made are overpowered.

Zhayne wrote:
Uh ... they're identical to PF's Androids, except for the last ability and missing that -4 penalty to Sense Motive.

We also removed Nanite Surge and Emotionless also.

Shifty wrote:
Would make amazing wizards, which is silly coming from a robot.

It is funny you refer to them as "robots". The new cylons from the lastest Battlestar Galatica were "robots" who looked entirely humanoid. Did you assume they would have a non-human appearance just based on wording of Android?


You still kept the big part of emotionless, which is the inability to gain morale effects.


Zhayne wrote:
You still kept the big part of emotionless, which is the inability to gain morale effects.

Do you think they work better with OR without emotions? Constructions with emotions could be very interesting.


Definitely with. If they had no emotions, they'd never do anything, because giving a crap is an emotion. :) Now, I would suspect said emotions would be far more subdued than most people, as they would likely lack things like an endocrine system, so they would, say, be afraid of things, but not panic, be happy but not joyous, sad but not morose, etc.

But I grew up on Transformers. The idea of mechanical/artificial lifeforms having emotions is not odd to me. :)

Liberty's Edge

I don't know that they're really more powerful than regular androids, but I think the arcane essence ability is kind of wonky, and could probably do with some fine tuning, or at least some explanation. Since animated objects are built with construction points, can you put the construction points into anything you want? Do stone objects always have the stone extraordinary ability and hardness? What about metal objects? Would they have the Metal extraordinary ability and hardness, even though it usually cost more construction points than a small animated object has?

The rounds/level seems right for the ability, but I could still see a number of 3rd level androids creating animated objects with hardness 8 being a much harder fight than their CR might usually indicate, even if the objects only last 3 rounds. But the same can be said for summoning as well.


Zhayne wrote:
Definitely with. If they had no emotions, they'd never do anything, because giving a crap is an emotion. :) Now, I would suspect said emotions would be far more subdued than most people, as they would likely lack things like an endocrine system, so they would, say, be afraid of things, but not panic, be happy but not joyous, sad but not morose, etc.

Thanks for the opinion. I will have to think this over.

Zhayne wrote:
But I grew up on Transformers. The idea of mechanical/artificial lifeforms having emotions is not odd to me. :)

That means you had a GREAT childhood.

Deighton Thrane wrote:
I don't know that they're really more powerful than regular androids, but I think the arcane essence ability is kind of wonky, and could probably do with some fine tuning, or at least some explanation.

Valid point.

Deighton Thrane wrote:
Since animated objects are built with construction points, can you put the construction points into anything you want? Do stone objects always have the stone extraordinary ability and hardness? What about metal objects? Would they have the Metal extraordinary ability and hardness, even though it usually cost more construction points than a small animated object has?

We were thinking from the perspective of the Animate Object and Animate Rope spells as a basis of this ability. Personally, I would like to handle this issue teh easy and simplest way possible also which makes the most sense.

Deighton Thrane wrote:
The rounds/level seems right for the ability, but I could still see a number of 3rd level androids creating animated objects with hardness 8 being a much harder fight than their CR might usually indicate, even if the objects only last 3 rounds. But the same can be said for summoning as well.

It's a catch-22 but since this ability is once a day, you can't really do this too often.


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Androids really should have the emotionless ability removed. i watched a lot of animated programs where the constructs had fully human emotions and could thus identify with humans. whether such things as Transformers in General, or even Eve from Elsword or Kos-Mos from Xenosaga. the Way Eve and Kos-Mos acted was very emotion driven or would appear to be, even if the Canon stated that Kos-Mos was supposed to be emotionless. Eve from Black Cat and Melfina from Outlaw star are highly emotional biological constructs.


Auren "Rin" Cloudstrider wrote:
Androids really should have the emotionless ability removed. i watched a lot of animated programs where the constructs had fully human emotions and could thus identify with humans. whether such things as Transformers in General, or even Eve from Elsword or Kos-Mos from Xenosaga. the Way Eve and Kos-Mos acted was very emotion driven or would appear to be, even if the Canon stated that Kos-Mos was supposed to be emotionless. Eve from Black Cat and Melfina from Outlaw star are highly emotional biological constructs.

This topic tends to result in 5+ page philosophical discussions about the nature of emotion, psychology, neurology, and human thought.

To cut it short and put a bow on it, "emotionless" Pathfinder androids are Data and/or Spock from Star Trek. Agreeing with the use of the term "emotionless" or the real-world implications and repercussions and meanings of emotional thought doesn't change the underlying trope and doesn't need to. You're playing a Vulcan, be ye evil or be ye good, there's an example floating around to draw from so rock on with it.

Now, the changes: Current meddling with 'emotionless' seems entirely unnecessary, wouldn't bother with it. Replacing nanite surge with Animate 1 small object is...meh.

I hate 1/day abilities in general (you can't use 'em without buyer's remorse and they're usually super-weak) and they boil down to "I have a flank-buddy with hardness for a duration that will eventually matter" vs. "I get a bonus to one d20 roll that will eventually be high enough to matter." Not that big a deal. Biggest worry is that animated objects themselves are pretty "loose" in the rules, so you're opening up a lot of DM interpretations and dilemmas if the player gets creative with the ability. "Can I animate part of this wall, thus making a hole in it?" "Can I a crude statue with 50 legs and the flight special so it can carry the entire party?" "I animate a barrel of acid that I used Shrink Item on, now I'm sending it into the center of an enemy formation, what happens when it gets hit?"

Which is fine, but something to be aware of.


Why not just use androids as written and offer up some alternate racial traits? Are you opposed to androids as written? Also, have you decided on any changes to you original post? An update before further analysis would be appreciated.


so, we have a Special Race for Playing Spock from Star Trek? what Racial Options do we get if we wanted to play Eve from Elsword? at least an alternate racial ability to trade away emotionless to represent a machine with extreme levels of Emotional Sensitivity would be nice. for those of us who want to play as the adorable and tsundere Nasod Queen Herself.


Everyone seems to be missing there is a feat that removes the emotionless quality. It was introduced in one of the Iron God Adventure Path. It isn't on the SRD for that reason, but it shouldn't be a hard sell for story purposes to most GMs.

Quote:

EMPATHY You have learned to experience emotion.

Prerequisites: Cha 13, android.

Benefit: You lose the emotionless special quality. You can gain morale bonuses, and can be affected by emotionbased effects and fear effects. You lack the +4 racial bonus on saving throws against mind-affecting effects.

So the option is totally there to play androids that go beyond their base construction and programming and learn to experience emotion.

In the case of Eve, she experienced emotion but didn't always understand it completely. Which these feat would certainly cover.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Auren "Rin" Cloudstrider wrote:
Androids really should have the emotionless ability removed. i watched a lot of animated programs where the constructs had fully human emotions and could thus identify with humans. whether such things as Transformers in General, or even Eve from Elsword or Kos-Mos from Xenosaga. the Way Eve and Kos-Mos acted was very emotion driven or would appear to be, even if the Canon stated that Kos-Mos was supposed to be emotionless. Eve from Black Cat and Melfina from Outlaw star are highly emotional biological constructs.

On the other hand, the world's most beloved android was Data, whom until someone came up with the idiot idea of an emotion chip was a great example of an artificial life form trying to process the concept of emotion beyond what his programming allowed.

I like the quality because it properly sets androids off as different from natural beings in a way that's consistent with their origins.


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Aleron wrote:
Everyone seems to be missing there is a feat that removes the emotionless quality.

I'm not sure one should have to spend a feat to roleplay a character in the manner they desire. I think it would work much better as simply an alternate racial trait, especially since it looks like you lose as much as you gain.


Zhayne wrote:
Aleron wrote:
Everyone seems to be missing there is a feat that removes the emotionless quality.
I'm not sure one should have to spend a feat to roleplay a character in the manner they desire. I think it would work much better as simply an alternate racial trait, especially since it looks like you lose as much as you gain.

Or more, depending on your character build. I mean, how many characters ACTUALLY build for a good sense motive vs. how many want to have really good will saves?


Excellent point. You can often get away with just one party member having a good Sense Motive (the designated face), but everybody wants good Will saves. Really, it's a drawback ... definitely not worth a feat.

This may be my new #1 worst feat in the game.


Really? Others have been touting it as overpowered in certain builds as it does allow them to experience morale effects too. That basically means an Android barbarian or bloodrager becomes wickedly viable due to still being immune to fatigue from their racial traits and being probably the single easiest way to rage cycle.

I agree outside of the niche builds though, it's not something that seems worth it. For adapting androids to my own setting they receive a choice of Empathy (slightly adjusted to avoid the above) or another custom feat that turns them more construct at level 5 so the player can develop them as they wish, either into something becoming more human or something more construct. That said, the races in my custom setting are more powerful than core and meant to be.


This strikes me as an issue with rage cycling existing, really. I'm not sure why they didn't just say 'once per encounter' on them.


OK I made some changes based on the comments in this thread and I have come up with this:

Ability Score Racial Traits: Kagan have swift reflexes and are very intelligent, but have difficulty relating to others. As a result, Kagan gain a +2 bonus to Dexterity and Intelligence, but suffer a –2 penalty to Charisma.

Size: Kagan are Medium creatures, and they have no bonuses or penalties due to their size.

Base Speed: Kagan have a base speed of 30 feet.

Languages: Kagan begin play speaking Common. Kagan with high Intelligence can choose any languages they want (except secret languages, such as Druidic).

Exceptional Senses: Kagan have darkvision and so can see perfectly in the dark to a range of 60 feet and in addition, they possess low-light vision.

Constructed: For the purposes of effects targeting creatures by type (such as a ranger’s favored enemy and bane weapons), Kagan count as both humanoids and constructs. Kagan gain a +4 racial bonus on all saving throws against paralysis, poison, and stun effects, are not subject to fatigue or exhaustion, and are immune to disease and sleep effects.

Emotional: Unlike androids, Kagan have emotions, can gain morale bonuses, and can be affected by emotion based effects and fear effects.

Arcane Essence (Ex): A Kagan can use this ability a number of times per day equal to 1 + the Kagan’s Charisma modifier as a full-round action, Kagan imbue a single small (or smaller) inanimate object with the Kagan’s arcane essence with mobility and a semblance of life. The animated object then immediately attacks whomever or whatever is initially designate. An animated object can be of any nonmagical material, with 1 Construction Point with a hardness up to 5. This ability cannot affect objects carried or worn by a creature. This effect last 1 round per level. Objects that are imbued disintegrate in to dust and the time effect of this ability.


Androids in fantasy settings are pretty much always dumbed down to the point that they barely seem like androids. It's for the sake of power balance, but it really makes the concept fall flat.

Think about Data in Star Trek: The Next Generation.

If he was a player character, he'd have abilities that were way more powerful than everyone else in the party. (huge strength, immune to all kinds of stuff, perfect memory, computer interface and speed, inhuman levels of accuracy and reflex)

That's the way an android should be, but it doesn't work in RPGs. The way West End Star Wars handled Droids was the closest thing I've seen to a functional PC android race in an RPG.


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Doomed Hero wrote:

Androids in fantasy settings are pretty much always dumbed down to the point that they barely seem like androids. It's for the sake of power balance, but it really makes the concept fall flat.

Think about Data in Star Trek: The Next Generation.

If he was a player character, he'd have abilities that were way more powerful than everyone else in the party. (huge strength, immune to all kinds of stuff, perfect memory, computer interface and speed, inhuman levels of accuracy and reflex)

That's the way an android should be, but it doesn't work in RPGs. The way West End Star Wars handled Droids was the closest thing I've seen to a functional PC android race in an RPG.

I think people limit what they think of in the realm of androids and robots. The Vision and the original Human Torch of Marvel comics are both androids (synthoids to be exact) who are made of the same parts. But the Human Torch is basically human with emotions and feelings, while the vision is more of the traditional "robot-ese" android. People hear the word android and the limit them to what robots are. You would think the updated Batllestar Galatica would have open people's mind to robots / androids and what they can look like.


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Tangential note - they retconned it so that the Torch was unrelated to the Vision, which was logical (Vision had mechanical/electronic parts, Torch was basically a vat-grown human .. they couldn't have been one and the same).

But, yeah, the idea that androids/robots/whatever are automatically OMG CREZZY is weird to me. Again, Transformers background ... while a few had crazy abilities like that, most things like reaction times and mental capabilities were just 'above average' with some below average (*cough*Dinobots*cough*), with accuracy levels being pretty Stormtroopery.

Thinking about it ... Data's about the only android I can think of with that kind of crazy 'I can do it all' package. C3PO certainly didn't have super-strength or speed ... R2D2 couldn't just hack into every system effortlessly ...


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Eve isn't even an "I do it all" Android either, she is generally the highly emotional android equivalent to a DPS based Ray caster with combat capable pets and a secondary focus on summoning with a custom unique summon list.


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Johnny five was, though he wasn't exactly an android. There have been others, especially the short-lived, "man is the true monster" ones that show up and die within a single episode. There are ridiculously overpowered androids and ones that are just human. Which one shows up depends on the narrative.

Economics rules says that most smart robots will actually be WEAKER than the average human because plastic and aluminum are all you need for a thing that's supposed to do really boring repetitive tasks like file clerk or janitor. "Created by a mad scientist" droids are going to be superior in every way he can make them superior.


What favored class bonuses do you think this race should have for themselves?


Doomed Hero wrote:

Think about Data in Star Trek: The Next Generation.

If he was a player character, he'd have abilities that were way more powerful than everyone else in the party. (huge strength, immune to all kinds of stuff, perfect memory, computer interface and speed, inhuman levels of accuracy and reflex)

That just represents him having a higher CR and statistics than the rest of his crew and doesn't necessarily have to be a trait of being an android.


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Data was a DMPC.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Maps, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

Louis, I like the revision to the Arcane Essence ability, but the last part: "Objects that are imbued disintegrate in to dust and the time effect of this ability" probably needs some refining beyond the 'not versus objects carried or worn' that you wisely put in. I can think of too many ways to use that in a fashion that you obviously don't intend to remove objects.

Examples: construct familiars (still objects, even if animated. I'd suggest adding 'inanimate' as a requirement to correct this, and to avoid arguments about whether they count as magical or not, as some forms of constructs might have a low enough hardness to qualify and/or not be explicitly magical, such as clockworks);or door locks (I'd suggest clarifying that the animated object can't be a component of something else to avoid this).


Kharis2000 wrote:

Louis, I like the revision to the Arcane Essence ability, but the last part: "Objects that are imbued disintegrate in to dust and the time effect of this ability" probably needs some refining beyond the 'not versus objects carried or worn' that you wisely put in. I can think of too many ways to use that in a fashion that you obviously don't intend to remove objects.

Examples: construct familiars (still objects, even if animated. I'd suggest adding 'inanimate' as a requirement to correct this, and to avoid arguments about whether they count as magical or not, as some forms of constructs might have a low enough hardness to qualify and/or not be explicitly magical, such as clockworks);or door locks (I'd suggest clarifying that the animated object can't be a component of something else to avoid this).

OK thanks for the head's up. Here is how I changed it:

Arcane Essence (Ex): A Kagan can use this ability a number of times per day equal to 1 + the Kagan’s Intelligence modifier as a full-round action, Kagan imbue a single small (or smaller) inanimate nonmagical object with the Kagan’s arcane essence with mobility and a semblance of life. The animated object then immediately attacks whomever or whatever is initially designate. An animated object can be of any nonmagical material, with 1 Construction Point with a hardness up to 5. This ability cannot affect objects carried or worn by a creature. This effect last 1 round per level and objects that are imbued disintegrate in to dust and the end of time effect of this ability.


Zhayne wrote:
Data was a DMPC.

Wesley was a DMPC. Data was just an optimizer.

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