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Since the other thread was closed without a satisfactory answer, I thought it might be worthwhile to make a FAQ request about this very delicate topic.
Does the race of a creature of the material plane inform the alignment of that creature(for example: Will an Orc raised outside of Orc society automatically gravitate towards Chaotic Evil?)
Discuss freely, but try and play nice with the other kids; and please Do not bring up IRL!
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This is already covered pretty succinctly in the Bestiary:
Alignment, Size, and Type: While a monster's size and type remain constant (unless changed by the application of templates or other unusual modifiers), alignment is far more fluid. The alignments listed for each monster in this book represent the norm for those monsters—they can vary as you require them to in order to serve the needs of your campaign. Only in the case of relatively unintelligent monsters (creatures with an Intelligence of 2 or lower are almost never anything other than neutral) and planar monsters (outsiders with alignments other than those listed are unusual and typically outcasts from their kind) is the listed alignment relatively unchangeable.
In short, maybe, maybe not. Ask your GM.
For the record, my personal view is that Sentient creature have free will, and thus even Drow and Orcs can choose to separate themselves from the alignment that is associated with their kind.
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For the record, my personal view is that Sentient creature have free will, and thus even Drow and Orcs can choose to separate themselves from the alignment that is associated with their kind.
It is certainly possible, though statistically uncommon. In many such societies, orcs/drow with such inclinations would be slain by their fellows before realizing enough to either flee or coup.
Edit: Note that a GM may decide that orcs are Always Chaotic Evil in her campaign world, and that's fine, too.
This is already covered pretty succinctly in the Bestiary:
Alignment, Size, and Type: While a monster's size and type remain constant (unless changed by the application of templates or other unusual modifiers), alignment is far more fluid. The alignments listed for each monster in this book represent the norm for those monsters—they can vary as you require them to in order to serve the needs of your campaign. Only in the case of relatively unintelligent monsters (creatures with an Intelligence of 2 or lower are almost never anything other than neutral) and planar monsters (outsiders with alignments other than those listed are unusual and typically outcasts from their kind) is the listed alignment relatively unchangeable.In short, maybe, maybe not. Ask your GM.
The problem isn't so much in home games as it is in the Golarion setting. If the GM is going strictly by what can be found in Paizo material, the RAW seems to indicate that Orcs, for example, are entirely evil and even when raised separate from other Orcs they will still often be evil.
EDIT:
It is certainly possible, though statistically uncommon. In many such societies, orcs/drow with such inclinations would be slain by their fellows before realizing enough to either flee or coup.
Ah, but being slain doesn't change that those inclinations are possible.
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I don't see why a FAQ would be needed. This is purely setting/GM call, although like any such thing it should probably be communicated to the players to some degree.
In Golarion, it is fairly clear that there is both nature and nurture going on. So many Orcs, even raised in a good home, would still be evil. Some raised in a good home would probably overcome their nature and not be so bad. Very few raised in their own tribes would be anything other than what one would expect, and as such they would only occur for a significant story/plot reason.
If the average orc raised in the best of environments turned out mildly sociopathic, and a significant percentage of them became psycho killers, orc raising would quickly fall into disfavor.
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In my experience, this is not a frequently asked question.
Creative Director
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The information quoted in the second post, from the Bestiary, is accurate in Golarion.
AKA An orc raised in a non-evil, non-chaotic society is not "hard-wired" to be evil.
Just because we haven't told that story yet doesn't mean we won't ever tell it, and it certainly doesn't mean that it can't be told at all.
I hope this post "settles" it... but if the internet's taught me anything...
...it's that you can never have enough cute cat pictures.
But it also taught me that "settling" arguments is a tough trick to pull off.
The information quoted in the second post, from the Bestiary, is accurate in Golarion.
Awesome! That in turn answers the quandary about the orc toddlers; their alignment CAN vary, so killing them WOULD definitely be an EVIL act.
EDIT: Or at least not a good one.
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Creative Director
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Awesome! That in turn answers the quandary about the orc toddlers; their alignment CAN vary, so killing them WOULD definitely be an EVIL act.The information quoted in the second post, from the Bestiary, is accurate in Golarion.
It's certainly not a good act, killing an infant of any race.
Whether or not it's evil, or any more evil than killing an adult... or whether indirectly killing an infant by killing its evil parents is an evil act... that starts to get into a gray area that not all groups are interested in complicating their table with.
Moral quandaries, such as "what do we do with all the goblin babies left behind after we saved the town from their parents?" can make a game interesting... or they can end a campaign dead in its tracks. If you have a table where that type of thing would end your campaign, you as the GM need to work hard to present either...
1) Adventures where that moral quandry doesn't come up, or...
2) Incorperate the reintegration of orphaned creatures into society into part of the campaign.
Both suggest interesting storylines.
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As blaphers already quoted, monster alignments vary to serve the needs of the campaign. So there's little to FAQ here.
But what does "serving the needs of the campaign" mean exactly? That's a good question. The answer won't always be the same.
Maybe you want a shades of grey campaign, where the good guys get their hands dirty. Nobody's entirely clean, but then nobody's entirely evil either. You can't say "I'm a bit dirty, but compared to the Demon Overlord, I'm still good".
On the other hand, sometimes you just want the "simple" campaign, where paladins ride forth to smite the heathen orcs. If you look at Tolkien for example, that's fairly un-nuanced black and white morality.
Either campaign might be to your liking. So there's no one right answer for the devs to put in an FAQ.
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Thank you for your quick and thoughtful response JJ!
In case you don't hear it enough, you're pretty awesome.
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For the record, my personal view is that Sentient creature have free will, and thus even Drow and Orcs can choose to separate themselves from the alignment that is associated with their kind.
This is known as 'the only view that makes any sense whatsoever'.
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For the record, my personal view is that Sentient creature have free will, and thus even Drow and Orcs can choose to separate themselves from the alignment that is associated with their kind.This is known as 'the only view that makes any sense whatsoever'.
And happily also the official view of the game as a whole, and (at least as of this thread) Golarion specifically. :)
Thank you for your quick and thoughtful response JJ!
In case you don't hear it enough, you're pretty awesome.
And in case you need a bit more, +1 on this, and I Favorited both JJ posts and the one I am replying to.
* * * * * * * *
(Insert shameless plug) My concept for a Good Drow that isn't a Drizz't Do'Urden clone, and backstory tailored to be compatible with Second Darkness (that is, not breaking it). Culture definitely changed here(*). I've posted this link before in other threads, but have done a little bit of updating. At some point I need to get the Crunch together; still debating the best implementation with myself.
(*)Andoran seems especially good for this -- not sure whether it is the absolute champion for providing a good environment for somebody traditionally considerad to be Evil to grow up Good, but the more cosmopolitan parts of it (Almas, etc.) have got to be close to the top. Of course, it wouldn't hurt to have an actual Andoran AP (hint, hint).
And happily also the official view of the game as a whole, and (at least as of this thread) Golarion specifically. :)For the record, my personal view is that Sentient creature have free will, and thus even Drow and Orcs can choose to separate themselves from the alignment that is associated with their kind.This is known as 'the only view that makes any sense whatsoever'.
Indeed, especially since 'the alignment that is associated with their kind' (a phrase that makes me cringe just typing it) can vary by campaign setting anyway. I've run a number of words where drow were not 'the enemy', slavers and backstabbers living underground demon worshippers blah blah.
