Appropriate DPR by level, has someone done it?

[ElementalXX]

Hello was just asking if someone has done a list of the regular dpr of a character by level and the max/min dpr a character has. It to more or less stablish a measure of a character firepower. Im aware of the DPR olimpics but it only offers reference for one level im looking for a more complete list

[wraithstrike]

ElementalXX wrote:

Hello was just asking if someone has done a list of the regular dpr of a character by level and the max/min dpr a character has. It to more or less stablish a measure of a character firepower. Im aware of the DPR olimpics but it only offers reference for one level im looking for a more complete list

I dont think this has been done for every level because it would have to be something that we can all agree on or it would be ignored. We would basically need a DPR Olympics for every level. That is not likely. What might be more easily accomplished is doing one for every 5 levels, but each one would need it's own thread.

Levels 1, 6, 11, and 16, should work in my opinion. 20 is not needed because if you are not making enemies cry by level 16 then you won't likely be doing it by level 20 either.

11 has been done, but the info was not compiled AFAIK.

[Duiker]

There's no need for a comprehensive table when the number can be easily generated for any class and level through the use of a simple pseudo-function that I've written in Perl but could be easily adapted to any programming language:

sub sufficientDPR {

my $sufficient=0;

($level,$class,$hadFunLastTime)=@_;

if ($hadFunLastTime) {
$sufficient=1;
}

return $sufficent

}

[wraithstrike]

Personally I don't think we can find an "appropriate" DPR. We might be able to find an average/normal DPR, which is what the DPR Olympics was about.

[Covent]

DPR Math

I did some DPR breakdowns at the above, however it is 15 pb and optimized.

I would recommend using excel rather than google docs for this.

This is just some rough math and is old so I will try to dig up a new one later.

Sorry posting from my phone.

[BigDTBone]

I think "appropriate" DPR = .5(CR+1 AVG HP)

[N. Jolly]

This would actually be really useful, and I don't have the math skills to figure it out, but it'd be nice to see a general baseline for what damage should be.

[rainzax]

there is a similar metric in the Bestiary, with suggested damage in reverse vector: monster vs PC

[Jiggy]

Start here: Monster Statistics by CR

For whatever level you want to look at, estimate the CR of the monsters you're likely going to be facing. Not the CR of the total encounter, but the CR of individual creatures.

Now, make a subjective decision as to what an "appropriate" number of rounds would be for how long it takes you to kill ONE of the creatures you're looking at. Involve your group in this decision.

Based on your decision of "rounds to kill" and the average HP value of a creature of the selected CR, determine how much damage you would need to deal per round. This is your target DPR at that level.

From there, you can use various maths to determine what your attack and damage bonuses could be to get that DPR.

Hope that helps!

[BigDTBone]

Appropriate DPR (Read: "Good to High")

1 - 10
2 - 15
3 - 20
4 - 27
5 - 35
6 - 42
7 - 50
8 - 57
9 - 65
10 - 72
11 - 80
12 - 90
13 - 100
14 - 110
15 - 120
16 - 135
17 - 150
18 - 165
19 - 185
20 - 205

VERY High DPR

1 - 20
2 - 30
3 - 40
4 - 55
5 - 70
6 - 85
7 - 100
8 - 115
9 - 130
10 - 145
11 - 160
12 - 180
13 - 200
14 - 220
15 - 240
16 - 270
17 - 300
18 - 330
19 - 370
20 - 410

EXTREME Cheese Level DPR

1 - 30
2 - 45
3 - 60
4 - 83
5 - 105
6 - 128
7 - 150
8 - 173
9 - 195
10 - 218
11 - 240
12 - 270
13 - 300
14 - 330
15 - 360
16 - 405
17 - 450
18 - 495
19 - 555
20 - 615

[Atarlost]

Jiggy wrote:

Start here: Monster Statistics by CR

For whatever level you want to look at, estimate the CR of the monsters you're likely going to be facing. Not the CR of the total encounter, but the CR of individual creatures.

Now, make a subjective decision as to what an "appropriate" number of rounds would be for how long it takes you to kill ONE of the creatures you're looking at. Involve your group in this decision.

Based on your decision of "rounds to kill" and the average HP value of a creature of the selected CR, determine how much damage you would need to deal per round. This is your target DPR at that level.

From there, you can use various maths to determine what your attack and damage bonuses could be to get that DPR.

Hope that helps!

In a sense that helps, but many classes don't progress smoothly and the game transitions over time.

At level 1 if you can't routinely one shot "typical" CR=APL monsters you're not trying, but one rounding a CR 20 at level 20 using HP damage is probably impossible without many more confirmed crits than average. Table 1-1 has CR 1 HP at CRx10 and CR 20 HP over CRX15 while most damage sources scale slower than level and later iteratives are increasingly chancy.

The real question is "have I put enough resources into DPR on this character?" and that's harder. The hard part of it isn't dividing HP by rounds to kill, it's determining what fight duration is acceptable at what levels.

[Undone]

Average full BAB DPR.
1 - 15
2 - 20
3 - 30
4 - 40
5 - 55
6 - 70
7 - 85
8 - 100
9 - 115
10 - 130
11 - 145
12 - 160
13 - 180
14 - 200
15 - 220
16 - 240
17 - 270
18 - 300
19 - 330
20 - 370

High DPR is 1.5x that. Extremely high/cheese is 2x or more thaan this.

Quote:

At level 1 if you can't routinely one shot "typical" CR=APL monsters you're not trying, but one rounding a CR 20 at level 20 using HP damage is probably impossible without many more confirmed crits than average. Table 1-1 has CR 1 HP at CRx10 and CR 20 HP over CRX15 while most damage sources scale slower than level and later iteratives are increasingly chancy.

Not even remotely true. A 20th level non cheese character can easily do >600DPR.

[BigDTBone]

I should point out that my list isn't a full-BAB or 3/4 or 1/2, but for all characters. If you want it measure DPR (ie it is important to your character to have direct damage output) then it doesn't matter what your BAB is. If you have 1/2 of your party dealing damage per my progression and 1/2 of the party supporting them then you should do fairly well.

Clearly, if you have less than 1/2 of the party contributing directly to damage then you should be hitting one of the other tracts I have laid out.

[ZanThrax]

BidDTBone's and Undone's numbers really make me question my character building skills. Of the characters on my builds thread, nearly all are martial characters. Of those, the highest DPR numbers I come up with at 8th level against a CR 8 enemy is just shy of 60 with the Daring Champion, who's swinging for 1d10+33 damage. I'm not sure what I'd have to build to be averaging 100 DPR with just two attacks at level 8.

[rainzax]

ballpark 10 per level?

[Cheapy]

I crunched the numbers for an optimized and unoptimized fighter using only the core rules. I explain the builds, and used the base numbers from the Monster Stats by CR chart. One important thing to note is that they both use the Elite Array, which is roughly 15 PB, which is what the game "assumes" when rules are being written. As such, I believe it's as close a baseline as you can get:

Non-Optimized fighter.
Optimized fighter.

I also calculated the average damage per round for monsters:
Here

[Ssyvan]

I *think* the formula would be something like:

Player's DPR = PDPR
Enemy's DPR = EDPR
Enemy's HP = EHP
Player's HP = PHP
Then the last value is the magic number, which I arbitrarily decided would be 20% of the player's HP. I'm sure there is a much much better metric than this, but didn't really take time to think it through.

So the PDPR should be equal to or greater than:

PDPR = (EDPR)(EHP+1)/(HP * 0.2)

Edit:

I'm ignoring the sticky subject of initiative, spells cast, blah blah blah

[BigDTBone]

ZanThrax wrote:

BidDTBone's and Undone's numbers really make me question my character building skills. Of the characters on my builds thread, nearly all are martial characters. Of those, the highest DPR numbers I come up with at 8th level against a CR 8 enemy is just shy of 60 with the Daring Champion, who's swinging for 1d10+33 damage. I'm not sure what I'd have to build to be averaging 100 DPR with just two attacks at level 8.

I don't know what your attack bonus is, but 2x attacks at d10+33 would be about 77 damage if both hit, my guess is your DPR is near 58-60 which is right in line with my recommended DPR for that level. Also note that I lust that as good to high DPR. Keep in mind that in game you will likely be higher with party support, or if no one is providing party support then they will be contributing to damage. My point being that ok/adequate DPR would be less than my low chart and would still be fine for a party of 4-6.

[BigDTBone]

Ssyvan wrote:

I *think* the formula would be something like:

Player's DPR = PDPR
Enemy's DPR = EDPR
Enemy's HP = EHP
Player's HP = PHP
Then the last value is the magic number, which I arbitrarily decided would be 20% of the player's HP. I'm sure there is a much much better metric than this, but didn't really take time to think it through.

So the PDPR should be equal to or greater than:

PDPR = (EDPR)(EHP+1)/(HP * 0.2)

** spoiler omitted **

If you want to use a formula like this then make your magic number = 1/(# in party). So a party of 5 would still be .2

[Cap. Darling]

Some of the Numbers here Does look a bit High. How do you get them? Not cheapys but the others. 55-105 at level 5 May need a build to show for it.

[Deadmanwalking]

BigDTBone wrote:

ZanThrax wrote:

BidDTBone's and Undone's numbers really make me question my character building skills. Of the characters on my builds thread, nearly all are martial characters. Of those, the highest DPR numbers I come up with at 8th level against a CR 8 enemy is just shy of 60 with the Daring Champion, who's swinging for 1d10+33 damage. I'm not sure what I'd have to build to be averaging 100 DPR with just two attacks at level 8.

I don't know what your attack bonus is, but 2x attacks at d10+33 would be about 77 damage if both hit, my guess is your DPR is near 58-60 which is right in line with my recommended DPR for that level. Also note that I lust that as good to high DPR. Keep in mind that in game you will likely be higher with party support, or if no one is providing party support then they will be contributing to damage. My point being that ok/adequate DPR would be less than my low chart and would still be fine for a party of 4-6.

Yeah, a 9th level Archer Bard alone can make that 3 attacks for 1d10+37 (+39 if you're 9th level, too), and over 130 damage if they all hit, plus plugging out five attacks of their own for 1d6+13 a piece (for 82.5 damage if they all hit) starting the second (maybe 3rd) round of combat.

[Undone]

Cap. Darling wrote:

Some of the Numbers here Does look a bit High. How do you get them? Not cheapys but the others. 55-105 at level 5 May need a build to show for it.

My numbers assume the party contributes the buffs associated with the class. For example a 5th character can be assumed to have haste. Although there are classes which really can do >50 points alone at level 5. Some are lancers but still.

The numbers I listed are the approximate numbers to 1 round an average HP CR appropriate monster.

All of them are hittable numbers by primary full BAB types and 3/4ths combat oriented BAB (Monk).

[Cap. Darling]

Undone wrote:

Cap. Darling wrote:

Some of the Numbers here Does look a bit High. How do you get them? Not cheapys but the others. 55-105 at level 5 May need a build to show for it.

My numbers assume the party contributes the buffs associated with the class. For example a 5th character can be assumed to have haste. Although there are classes which really can do >50 points alone at level 5. Some are lancers but still.

The numbers I listed are the approximate numbers to 1 round an average HP CR appropriate monster.

All of them are hittable numbers by primary full BAB types and 3/4ths combat oriented BAB (Monk).

If that have basis in actual calculations and builds how come the addition of haste +1 to hit and +1 attack only accounts for 15 more in DPR? I am willing to belive you build better than i do. But i need at least a few builds to do so:)

[ZanThrax]

BigDTBone wrote:

I don't know what your attack bonus is, but 2x attacks at d10+33 would be about 77 damage if both hit, my guess is your DPR is near 58-60 which is right in line with my recommended DPR for that level. Also note that I lust that as good to high DPR. Keep in mind that in game you will likely be higher with party support, or if no one is providing party support then they will be contributing to damage. My point being that ok/adequate DPR would be less than my low chart and would still be fine for a party of 4-6.

+16/+11, with a x3 weapon (assuming Challenge and Power Attack to get those damage numbers as well). 77 if both hit, but that's not reasonable. The point of choosing the CR8 enemy is to be able to determine what the likelihood of each attack hitting (or critting) is so that an accurate DPR can be calculated. Which is why I'm not sure what sort of builds are able to reliably have over 100 DPR at that level.

Undone wrote:

My numbers assume the party contributes the buffs associated with the class. For example a 5th character can be assumed to have haste.

Okay, that explains your numbers then. I'm not calculating based on theoretical party members that may or may not exist, and especially not on there being a buff-bot wizard who consistently manages to haste me before my first full attack.

[Cheapy]

His numbers appear to be the average hit points per CR, and with the assumption is that someone should be able to take out a CR equal creature in one round at all levels. I may be misunderstanding it, but I'm not convinced that's a safe assumption.

I certainly don't expect anyone to be able to put out 15 damage on average at first level, at least :-)

[BigDTBone]

Cap. Darling wrote:

Some of the Numbers here Does look a bit High. How do you get them? Not cheapys but the others. 55-105 at level 5 May need a build to show for it.

I say that "good" DPR at 5th is 35. 105 is what I call EXTREME cheese. To me that means that about 90% of people are going to have a bad taste in their mouth with the level of RAI ignoring that's going on and at least 30% of people are just going to flat accuse you of cheating. Basically, 105 is the extreme cap before you must admit to your inner munchkin that you need to stop. I'm not even saying that I have a build capable of putting out the extreme end of damage at each level.

If 2 people in your group are built for 35 dpr at level 5, and 2 people are built to support them through buffs or bf control or debuffs then you should find AP's easy-to-moderate in difficulty.

[Undone]

Cap. Darling wrote:

Undone wrote:

Cap. Darling wrote:

Some of the Numbers here Does look a bit High. How do you get them? Not cheapys but the others. 55-105 at level 5 May need a build to show for it.

My numbers assume the party contributes the buffs associated with the class. For example a 5th character can be assumed to have haste. Although there are classes which really can do >50 points alone at level 5. Some are lancers but still.

The numbers I listed are the approximate numbers to 1 round an average HP CR appropriate monster.

All of them are hittable numbers by primary full BAB types and 3/4ths combat oriented BAB (Monk).

If that have basis in actual calculations and builds how come the addition of haste +1 to hit and +1 attack only accounts for 15 more in DPR? I am willing to belive you build better than i do. But i need at least a few builds to do so:)

Ok well here's just a generic barbarian at level 5.

Spoiler:

Human barb Smashy Mc SMASHFACE
STR: 23 (+2 item, 1 level)
DEX: 14
CON: 14
INT: 7
WIS: 11
CHA: 7
Items of importance
+1 weapon, +2 str belt (seems reasonable)

Feats
1: Power attack
H: Reckless rage (+1 power attack progression)
3: Weapon focus
5: Extra rage power

Rage powers
2: Reckless Abandon
4: Lesser elemental rage
5: Witch hunter

To hit: +14 (5 BAB, 8 str raging, 1 weapon, 1 weapon focus, +2 reckless abandon -3 power attack)
Damage: 2d6+1d6+22 average 32.5 (12 STR, 1 weapon, 9 Power attack, Potential +2 from witch hunter)

You can replace several elements but it's pretty stock. Adding haste easily shoves 65 damage out of the 55 point DPR average thanks to crit effects on DPR.

This has no fancy anything. It uses PHB, and APG and one item from ACG (Reckless rage). This is a pretty standard DPR for well built full martial characters.

Quote:

I certainly don't expect anyone to be able to put out 15 damage on average at first level, at least :-)

Nearly every one of my characters that is full BAB can do this or more. Heck a first level 18 str with power attack greatsword does more than this! 18 str = 6 damage, Power attack = 3 damage 2d6 = 7.

Quote:

Okay, that explains your numbers then. I'm not calculating based on theoretical party members that may or may not exist, and especially not on there being a buff-bot wizard who consistently manages to haste me before my first full attack.

This is only a problem from level 5 to 9. After that boots of speed erases the need for another helper.

[Cap. Darling]

Cheapy wrote:

His numbers appear to be the average hit points per CR, and with the assumption is that someone should be able to take out a CR equal creature in one round at all levels. I may be misunderstanding it, but I'm not convinced that's a safe assumption.

I certainly don't expect anyone to be able to put out 15 damage on average at first level, at least :-)

Pehaps with High str and a Lance and a cleric blessing and a

Bard playing a trombone. But that is not for every body. Or Raging with a Big sword and PA at level 1 And the support can also get there. But i dont know how to get to the higher numbers.

[Undone]

Cap. Darling wrote:

Cheapy wrote:

His numbers appear to be the average hit points per CR, and with the assumption is that someone should be able to take out a CR equal creature in one round at all levels. I may be misunderstanding it, but I'm not convinced that's a safe assumption.

I certainly don't expect anyone to be able to put out 15 damage on average at first level, at least :-)

Pehaps with High str and a Lance and a cleric blessing and a

Bard playing a trombone. But that is not for every body. Or Raging with a Big sword and PA at level 1 And the support can also get there. But i dont know how to get to the higher numbers.

The overwhelming majority of those numbers come from using styles that people either don't like or don't put effort into playing. Animals, Archery, lancing, Flurrying exct. You usually need a gimmik to keep up with DPR. Two handed will only keep up on a barb for the most part.

[Cap. Darling]

Undone wrote:

Cap. Darling wrote:

Cheapy wrote:

His numbers appear to be the average hit points per CR, and with the assumption is that someone should be able to take out a CR equal creature in one round at all levels. I may be misunderstanding it, but I'm not convinced that's a safe assumption.

I certainly don't expect anyone to be able to put out 15 damage on average at first level, at least :-)

Pehaps with High str and a Lance and a cleric blessing and a

Bard playing a trombone. But that is not for every body. Or Raging with a Big sword and PA at level 1 And the support can also get there. But i dont know how to get to the higher numbers.

The overwhelming majority of those numbers come from using styles that people either don't like or don't put effort into playing. Animals, Archery, lancing, Flurrying exct. You usually need a gimmik to keep up with DPR. Two handed will only keep up on a barb for the most part.

is that both the standart and the 30 damage on level 1 ones? I personally cannot get close to 60 at level 3.

[ZanThrax]

I'm not convinced that a barbarian with two stats dumped to 7, using a 1/rage rage power, and a second rage power that it doesn't actually have the prerequisites for should be considered a good baseline for determining "appropriate DPR by level".

[Cap. Darling]

A str 20 barbarian with powerattack and weapon focus is around 17 ws AC 12 i guess that quailfy. But it is hardly standart.

[Undone]

ZanThrax wrote:

I'm not convinced that a barbarian with two stats dumped to 7, using a 1/rage rage power, and a second rage power that it doesn't actually have the prerequisites for should be considered a good baseline for determining "appropriate DPR by level".

Dropping rage powers entirely (except reckless abandon) still places you firmly at the number specified. I made it in 5 minutes. Drop WF for superstitious. Removing 5 damage a strike puts it right at 55.

If you're worried about the haste then just be a druid or summoner with an animal, be a lancer, be a zen archer, be a paladin archer smiting evil. It takes a little bit of work but I expect anyone asking if their DPR is good to be using pregen optimization level characters. Heck even reach weapons and combat reflexes can increase your DPR drastically against a lot of enemies.

[wraithstrike]

ZanThrax wrote:

I'm not convinced that a barbarian with two stats dumped to 7, using a 1/rage rage power, and a second rage power that it doesn't actually have the prerequisites for should be considered a good baseline for determining "appropriate DPR by level".

I agree.

[ElementalXX]

Hi again. Good this thread got some support. While im seeing all have quite some different lists, I specially like BigDTBone and Cheapy's work, I think its important to stablish a benchmark. The points or questions which I think would be necessary to organize them would be:

1. How many rounds should an X level PC take to kill an CR X monster? (by damage of course)

2. How much damage could be considerated too much?

3. Which is the acceptable* monster with the highest HP, which one has the lowest?
(Lets leave monster contruction and templates aside)
*(some monsters may be excluded if their CR is way to high to realistically include on a game, like chuthulu for example )
-------------------------------------------------------------------

1. Personally i expect my pcs take 2-3 rounds on average to finish a monster. So my personal magic number would be 2.5

2. Personally I think if a 20 level PC can one shot the highest hp monster then that would be too much, however that will depend on number

-To get a media I believe its important to get the max and the mins of damage. Then we may be able to focus on number in between those points. Im no mathematician so if im saying something wrong make sure to point it out. Regards

- Also examples of a class dpr should be based on vanilla versions, to get the media of a class, somehow the same way Cheapy did

[wraithstrike]

To keep this clean DPR should be restricted to damage done on your turn since that is how the other DPR threads were done.

[ElementalXX]

wraithstrike wrote:

To keep this clean DPR should be restricted to damage done on your turn since that is how the other DPR threads were done.

Agreed, unlike in 3.5 or 4e out of turn damage is practically impossible to control, it depends on a number of factors which may overcomplicate the calculations

[Undone]

1) How many rounds? I believe full BAB/combat oriented classes should average 1 average CR appropriate monster a turn under the circumstance of full attacking. Exceptional or defensive monsters should be more difficult.

2) How much is too much? Enough to kill two at level targets in a single turn.

3) An acceptable monster HP is listed on average. Give or take 15%.

Minimum damage is not really helpful. Maximum is helpful sort of but it's SO high due to leadership and BATTY BAT.

Also using the "Base" of each type is not really fair. Most damage oriented characters do a lot more damage with archetypes.

The problem is that there are really two sets of DPR. Those who have generic builds and meh DPR and those who have good DPR and use a gimmick of some kind. For example Lancing, Archery, Animal companions, or animated undead.

Lastly it should be noted there are only a few types of DPR no matter what the number listed is. You can either spend
Bad: 3 rounds killing 1 target
Low: 2 rounds killing 1 target
Good: 1 round killing 1 target
Very High: 1 round killing 2 targets

[ElementalXX]

Undone wrote:

Also using the "Base" of each type is not really fair. Most damage oriented characters do a lot more damage with archetypes.

Its true, however I think the vanilla versions are more on par of what the class creators expected it to do since archetypes are usually not made by the original authors of the class

Undone wrote:

Lastly it should be noted there are only a few types of DPR no matter what the number listed is. You can either spend

I think is much more easy to make an aveage but if someone is willing to do the list a per separted in tiers it would be better

Undone wrote:

. Maximum is helpful sort of but it's SO high due to leadership and BATTY BAT.[...]Lancing, Archery, Animal companions, or animated undead.

Im not really sure, probably only companions and eidolons should be counted since Leadership and Undead minions depend heavily on Dm fiat

[Undone]

ElementalXX wrote:

Undone wrote:

Also using the "Base" of each type is not really fair. Most damage oriented characters do a lot more damage with archetypes.

Its true, however I think the vanilla versions are more on par of what the class creators expected it to do since archetypes are usually not made by the original authors of the class

I disagree. That's only true for bestiary 1. The subsequent monsters are tougher and clearly assume more options are available which is why B4 is by far the hardest of the monster sets overall.(not to say other books aren't hard but the numbers are higher in B4)

[wraithstrike]

ElementalXX wrote:

Hi again. Good this thread got some support. While im seeing all have quite some different lists, I specially like BigDTBone and Cheapy's work, I think its important to stablish a benchmark. The points or questions which I think would be necessary to organize them would be:

1. How many rounds should an X level PC take to kill an CR X monster? (by damage of course)

2. How much damage could be considerated too much?

3. Which is the acceptable* monster with the highest HP, which one has the lowest?
(Lets leave monster contruction and templates aside)
*(some monsters may be excluded if their CR is way to high to realistically include on a game, like chuthulu for example )
-------------------------------------------------------------------

1 and 2. Assuming only full attacks the monster at the longest should take 2 rounds to put down. One rounding something that is APL+2 higher than you might annoy some GM's so that would be beyond the norm. ←←just a guess on my part

Yes I am aware that not full attacks are not always available if you are not an archer.
@ everyone
I dont consider certain builds "vanilla" just because they are well known on this site however we can make that judgement as builds are presented.

[wraithstrike]

Instead of picking certain monsters why not just use the chart telling us average hit points for a CR?

[ElementalXX]

Undone wrote:

ElementalXX wrote:

Undone wrote:

Also using the "Base" of each type is not really fair. Most damage oriented characters do a lot more damage with archetypes.

Its true, however I think the vanilla versions are more on par of what the class creators expected it to do since archetypes are usually not made by the original authors of the class

I disagree. That's only true for bestiary 1. The subsequent monsters are tougher and clearly assume more options are available which is why B4 is by far the hardest of the monster sets overall.(not to say other books aren't hard but the numbers are higher in B4)

Now that you mention it you are right, interestingly this poses the problem that if CR is not really that balanced it may be nota good measure of a PC power

[ElementalXX]

wraithstrike wrote:

Instead of picking certain monsters why not just use the chart telling us average hit points for a CR?

That may be the most accurate measure so far

[Blakmane]

I think bigDTbone's numbers are already a decent enough benchmark. There's no need to take it much further than that.

It seems like most people are having an issue because those numbers are high. If you look a bit more carefully at his post, you'll see the later lists are specifically for high-optimisation baselines (cr equivalent in one round). If you just focus on the first set as a good goal to aim for, there isn't much need to go further as that is already more than enough.

Personally, killing a cr equivalent monster in 1-2 rounds is my baseline for an encounter-ender like a martial or SoL caster. 3 rounds is pushing it but acceptable. 4 rounds and you are risking death, as the chances of failing a vital save (ghoul paralyze, spells etc) or getting critted begin to rise unacceptably.

IMO the biggest misconception I see about pathfinder is the expected length of combat. Pathfinder combats are, and should be, extremely short (max 5 rounds). Longer combats (somewhat counterintuitively) are more swingy as the risk of a string of lucky monster rolls becomes more likely. As a DM you should generally be trying to keep the swinginess as low as possible so that you have a clear understanding of how the combat will play out (almost always, the PCs winning with some minor resource expenditure). A lot of problems I hear about in terms of encounter balancing (and 'OMG broken OP build' calls) stem from a misunderstanding of this by the DM, who assumes combats should be longer and more 'gritty'. Pathfinder is not the system for that.

[Undone]

ElementalXX wrote:

Undone wrote:

ElementalXX wrote:

Undone wrote:

Also using the "Base" of each type is not really fair. Most damage oriented characters do a lot more damage with archetypes.

Its true, however I think the vanilla versions are more on par of what the class creators expected it to do since archetypes are usually not made by the original authors of the class

I disagree. That's only true for bestiary 1. The subsequent monsters are tougher and clearly assume more options are available which is why B4 is by far the hardest of the monster sets overall.(not to say other books aren't hard but the numbers are higher in B4)

Now that you mention it you are right, interestingly this poses the problem that if CR is not really that balanced it may be nota good measure of a PC power

The monster creation guide lines are for B1. I was being conservative on the damage.

[Cap. Darling]

I am Still unconvinced of the High numbers. And talking about tricks that either is very limited or comes online at level 10+ is not helping. If we talk about a zen archer how Does he do 20 at level 2? If it is undead how do you manage 40 at level 4? And please notice this is the builds you claim is in the High end and i just ask for the avarage numbers.

[Bandw2]

this thread has made it clear to me how horrible i am at making martials.

my samurai get's like 13 DPR at level 5 against CR 5, 18 on a challenge but still. also how is a 5th level character supposed to be hasted, it's a 3rd level spell for bards even.

[Cap. Darling]

Bandw2 wrote:

this thread has made it clear to me how horrible i am at making martials.

my samurai get's like 13 DPR at level 5 against CR 5, 18 on a challenge but still. also how is a 5th level character supposed to be hasted, it's a 3rd level spell for bards even.

It is also a level 3 spell for wizards. And a transmuter gets to cast it 4 times by level 5 if he have a bound item.

[Undone]

Cap. Darling wrote:

I am Still unconvinced of the High numbers.

Ok.

Cap. Darling wrote:

And talking about tricks that either is very limited or comes online at level 10+ is not helping.

I'm not talking about 10+ and you'll also note that not all builds have good damage at every level. In fact nearly no build has good damage at all levels.

Cap. Darling wrote:

If we talk about a zen archer how Does he do 20 at level 2?

Congrats you chose one of two levels where a ZA is not great. Their core class feature isn't online. If the ZA is anything with wis/str doing 1d8+4 (5 for PBS) is not outside of possibility which is 19 average.

Cap. Darling wrote:

If it is undead how do you manage 40 at level 4?

Look ma blunt arrows. At level 4 40 damage over 3 attacks is not that hard since deadly aim is online now for +4 damage with +4 from STR, +1 from weapon. Although slightly out of reach for practical builds. A ZAM is more balanced than the other options but scales up better than some of the listed options. It's DPR is on the lower end of the listed ones because it's more balanced.

Cap. Darling wrote:

And please notice this is the builds you claim is in the High end and i just ask for the avarage numbers.

I'm presenting existing builds not extremely lopsided theory crafting. Most actual builds will have poor DPR unless buffed in some way by the anvils. You also are unlikely to accept Lancing DPR.