Hey guys!
This has been a huge question in my group, and I want to put it to rest now. Is it possible to take two archetypes in which one archetype modifies a feature, and the other changes it? Take, for example, the Winter Witch and the Scarred Witch Doctor. The former modifies the familiar, while the latter replaces it. Half of my group believes this shouldn't stack, while the other half claims it should, as they don't both replace the feature, so it is still there to be replaced by the second archetype. Is there a ruling on this??
Awesome, that's what I thought. Thank you!
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This is not correct. This is a misunderstanding of the use of the word "or."
You can't replace the same class feature and you can't change the same class features. You can replace a changed class feature in some circumstances.
FAQ
"Archetype: If an archetype replaces a class ability with a more specific version of that ability (or one that works similarly to the replaced ability), does the archetype's ability count as the original ability for the purpose of rules that improve the original ability?
It depends on how the archetype's ability is worded. If the archetype ability says it works like the standard ability, it counts as that ability. If the archetype's ability requires you to make a specific choice for the standard ability, it counts as that ability. Otherwise, the archetype ability doesn't count as the standard ability.
Pathfinder Design Team, 07/12/13"
The quote isn't specifically speaking about a changed feature being replaced, but it does give a clear definition of what changing the feature means and that changing it doesn't necessary mean it isn't the "same class feature." If it is still the same class feature it can then be replaced.
This is also, how it works with Hero Lab. If there is a class feature that has been changed, but isn't essential to the class (you must take it) then the changed feature can be replaced.
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You can replace a changed class feature in some circumstances.
You totally will see significant table variance with that line of thinking and the FAQ you listed has absolutely zero to do with that question. It is referring to things like a change class feature that works like the standard feature and the question of if it qualifies you for things like pre-reqs based on the standard feature.
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I noted that the FAQ wasn't speaking about it specifically, but it does clearly define what changing and class feature is and that it doesn't change the class feature. If the class feature is still the class feature then it meats the pre-reqs for being replaced.
The idea that you can't replace a change class feature is based upon nothing other then a single interpretation of the word or; it is an overly legalistic interpretation that ignores all other possible uses of the word or, and the context of other rules. It is atrocious reading comprehension.
there are many reasons that support that you can replace a changed class feature.
1. alternate interpretation of the use of or.
2. changing a class feature doesn't change it from being the ability, and thus the ability can be replaced.
3. It is consistent with the flexibility of being able to replace staged class abilities
4. It is how it is how it is done on Hero Lab.
That interpretation is like saying if all the windows in my house were broke and I was told I could replace or fix them; the assumption is that I can't do both depending on the window. The interpretation totally ignores the context and misapplies the context of the word or.
Hero Lab is NOT a Paizo rules source. It is a 3rd party program and may have inaccuracies.
Pazio has an invested interest for people to view Hero Lab as being a good tool. As well as Hero Lab has regular contact and rule clarification directly from people from Pazio. Given no source directly from pazio on the rules, Hero Lab is the best collaboration and clarification on the rules there is.
Given believing the collaborative work of hero lab or some random post, it's foolishness to belive that just because Hero Lab isn't Pazio directly that it is less likely to be correct on the rules then random guy number 1 who also isn't Pazio. Whose reasoning is based on an ambiguous meaning of a single word.
Hero Lab is not a Paizo rules source, period. It is not any more inherently right, nor wrong, than any other 3rd party rules source.
Your statement that it has regular contact and rules clarification does not change that it is not a Paizo rules source.
I am not saying you are wrong (or right) on your other points. I am not even addressing this topic. I am only referencing your inappropriate use of Hero Lab as a rationale for your position being correct.
I didn't say that it was a PAzio rules source just that because it has more exposer to the people who do make the rules that it has more credibility then an individual. That is how sources work. A book and a magazine may not be an expect but they have information directly from an expert. Making it more reliable then Joe-SMo. what ever bias you have against Hero Lab doesn't change that they have more access to have there questions answered then most people and thereby make their interpretations more valuable
I am not saying that it means Hero Lab has to be right, just that it gives support that interpreting the word "or" the way it is being interpreted isn't correct. claiming Hero Lab isn't Pazio is dismissive; and it completely ignores what it is through the claim of what it is not.
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Changing is altering, so a changed class feature can't be replaced because it has been altered. Look at crossblooded and wild blooded FAQ.
Crossblooded still has Bloodline Arcana. It isn't replaced. It is just altered to add both Arcanas to you. It doesn't stack with Wild Blooded.
This is not correct. This is a misunderstanding of the use of the word "or."
You can't replace the same class feature and you can't change the same class features. You can replace a changed class feature in some circumstances.
FAQ
"Archetype: If an archetype replaces a class ability with a more specific version of that ability (or one that works similarly to the replaced ability), does the archetype's ability count as the original ability for the purpose of rules that improve the original ability?It depends on how the archetype's ability is worded. If the archetype ability says it works like the standard ability, it counts as that ability. If the archetype's ability requires you to make a specific choice for the standard ability, it counts as that ability. Otherwise, the archetype ability doesn't count as the standard ability.
Pathfinder Design Team, 07/12/13"The quote isn't specifically speaking about a changed feature being replaced, but it does give a clear definition of what changing the feature means and that changing it doesn't necessary mean it isn't the "same class feature." If it is still the same class feature it can then be replaced.
This is also, how it works with Hero Lab. If there is a class feature that has been changed, but isn't essential to the class (you must take it) then the changed feature can be replaced.
Would this ruling mean a Sacred Servant paladin can also take an Oath since they both modify spell casting, but it still functions the same way?
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"Would this ruling mean a Sacred Servant paladin can also take an Oath since they both modify spell casting, but it still functions the same way? "
No because you can't change the same ability, You can only change it and then replace it all together.
If you have two changes, you can't choose which change takes place, but if the change still defines the ability as a pre-req for the replacement; then you can replace the ability all together.
But then you are not conforming to the first archetype.
"Crossblooded still has Bloodline Arcana. It isn't replaced. It is just altered to add both Arcanas to you. It doesn't stack with Wild Blooded."
They both change the bloodline arcana, Neither actually replace the blood line arcana because they are still considered "bloodline arcana."
Yoou can't change the same ability twice, you can only replace an ability that was changed (but still considered a pre-req for the replacement)
But then you are not conforming to the first archetype.
That's like say if you take a feat that changes or alters a class ability you aren't conforming to it. You make the change and then replace the change. Unless their is something in the change saying you must take the changed class ability; you are free to alter/replace.
When you take an archetype you must take all of the changes the archetype makes. If you add an archetype that removes the changed ability then you haven't taken all the abilities from the first archetype.
"If you add an archetype that removes the changed ability then you haven't taken all the abilities from the first archetype"
As I said there is nothing saying that you can't alter or change an ability with a feat, prestige class, or other means; thus there is no reason to assume you can't with an arch type (other then misinterpreting the word or).
"You can't alter something that isn't there."
If that was assumed then there wouldn't be the need to of addresses it specifically. Your argument assumes a singular unsupported interpretation; if their is a priority of replacing vs changing then that obviously NOT how it works.
Also, they have already insinuated that isn't the case with the ability to shift tiered class abilities.
A character can take more than one archetype and garner additional alternate class features, but none of the alternate class features can replace or alter the same class feature from the core class as another alternate class feature. For example, a paladin could not be both a hospitaler and an undead scourge since they both modify the smite evil class feature and both replace the aura of justice class feature. A paladin could, however, be both an undead scourge and a warrior of the holy light, since none of their new class features replace the same core class feature.
And
When an archetype includes multiple class features, a character must take all of them—often blocking the character from ever gaining certain familiar class features, but replacing them with equally powerful options.
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" character must take all of them"
That's an obvious reverence that you can't choose which ones' to take from the original class. You have taken it out of context and tried to misapply the quote.
You have taken them all, you have just replaced one. Again, your interpretation would assume that you can't replace a class feature by other means.
Well if the rules themselves don't convince you I certainly don't think I will. The correct information is here for those that want it.
I haven't denied what the rules said, just that you are reading them wrong. So, just repeatedly reposting the rule without explaining why it should be interpreted in a certain way, means nothing. It just validates the fact that you are reading it wrong.
If the two archetypes are legally compatible, then you can add them in either order. Are you saying you can take an archetype that modifies an ability that another archetype removed?
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Are you saying you can take an archetype that modifies an ability that another archetype removed?
The other way around. If an ability is changed, but still "count's as the standard ability" (as defined in the FAQ)
Then that standard ability can be replaced. There is a difference between being changed and replaced.
"A character who takes an alternate class feature does not count as having the class feature that was REPLACED for the purposes of meeting any requirements or prerequisites."
The FAQ obviously says that a change can be the same ability. but the rules say a replacement can't be the same ability. They are two distinctive things, and a change that is still the same ability can be the pre-rec for a replacement.
Another example of this distinction in the quote you provided earlier "often blocking the character from ever gaining certain familiar class features, but REPLACING them with equally powerful options."
you can't replace something you've replaced, ,and you can't change something you have changed, but you can replace something you have changed as long as it still counts as the pre-rec for the replacement.
Those circumstances are "none of the alternate class features can replace or alter the same class feature from the base class as the other alternate feature"
As I said before that interpretation is all based upon the ambiguities of the word "or." and I have provided several reason that support the rule as I have presented it.
So if archetype A modified a class ability and archetype B replaced the same class ability, you think that you could take archetype A and archetype B but you could not take archetype B and archetype A?
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Bevrji, if you have fighter Bob, he wants to take both Archetype 1 and Archetype 2
Archetype 1 changes ability B and C
Archetype 2 replaces ability A and B
So you are saying that ability B was changed but Archetype 1, but since it still counts as the same basic ability you can replace it with the new ability B from Archetype 2?
Is that what you are saying?
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So if archetype A modified a class ability and archetype B replaced the same class ability, you think that you could take archetype A and archetype B but you could not take archetype B and archetype A?
Not sure what you mean by "take." you would end up with only the replacement B.
If A changes the ability, but it still counts as the ability; then it can be replaced with B. You would no longer have A (just as you would not have the original class ability that would of been replaced) and would be left with B
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Bevrji, if you have fighter Bob, he wants to take both Archetype 1 and Archetype 2
Archetype 1 changes ability B and C
Archetype 2 replaces ability A and BSo you are saying that ability B was changed but Archetype 1, but since it still counts as the same basic ability you can replace it with the new ability B from Archetype 2?
Is that what you are saying?
Yes, As the FAQ explains a "change" that should be how it works.
So if archetype A modified a class ability and archetype B replaced the same class ability, you think that you could take archetype A and archetype B but you could not take archetype B and archetype A?
Yeah I feel that's what he's saying. He says that if you go B and then apply A that you're doing the order wrong. You can't do both because archetype A HAS to have the modified ability. Yes other things like feats and items can use that as if it was the base ability, but that doesn't work for replacing it with another archetype.
but that doesn't work for replacing it with another archetype.Based upon what? Other then the interpretation of the word "or" what do you base the fact you can't do that with another arch type? Because I provided a different use of the word "or" gave an example of it's use and provided three other reason to support this is how it works.
Yes,Bevrji, if you have fighter Bob, he wants to take both Archetype 1 and Archetype 2
Archetype 1 changes ability B and C
Archetype 2 replaces ability A and BSo you are saying that ability B was changed but Archetype 1, but since it still counts as the same basic ability you can replace it with the new ability B from Archetype 2?
Is that what you are saying?
while I see what you are getting at, that is not rules legal, as when taking archetypes you get everything, so Archetype 1 can't change ability B because Archetype 2 is attempting to replace it, there is no order in with you change then replace, or calculate Archetype 1 then 2, you get both all at once, if that means an ability is being targeted twice (or more) it is not compatable.
You are saying that one of them can replace a changed ability, but your assuming that the change comes before the replace, but it happens at the same time, you dont get to pick and choose.
Another way to look at if something is okay that happen at the same time is to apply them in both orders AKA.
Archetype 1 changes ability A to C
Archetype 2 replaces ability A with B
so you end up with B according you Bevrji ruling.
But then you do it the other way.
Archetype 2 replaces ability A with B
Archetype 1 changes ability A to C
Archetype 1 doesn't have an ability A to chance to C anymore.
Thus it can't work.
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while I see what you are getting at, that is not rules legal, as when taking archetypes you get everything, so Archetype 1 can't change ability B because Archetype 2 is attempting to replace it, there is no order in with you change then replace, or calculate Archetype 1 then 2, you get both all at once, if that means an ability is being targeted twice (or more) it is not compatable.You are saying that one of them can replace a changed ability, but your assuming that the change comes before the replace, but it happens at the same time, you dont get to pick and choose.
You are assuming you can't pick the order. I am making my "assumption" based upon the fact that you get to pick the order of your creation and meeting pre-recs in almost every other instance. If you have two feats you get to pick them in order to meet the pre-req. There is no reason to assume the same isn't true with archetypes.
Another way to look at if something is okay that happen at the same time is to apply them in both orders AKA.
Archetype 1 changes ability A to C
Archetype 2 replaces ability A with Bso you end up with B according you Bevrji ruling.
But then you do it the other way.
Archetype 2 replaces ability A with B
Archetype 1 changes ability A to CArchetype 1 doesn't have an ability A to chance to C anymore.
Thus it can't work.
it wouldn't work either way cause there is no order in witch you take archetypes, when you decide to take archetypes its all simultaneous if one is changing or replacing ability C no otherarchetype also selected can change or replace ability C because they would conflict no mater what.
"when you decide to take archetypes its all simultaneous"
Where is that rule?
@LazarX, proclaiming that you know the rule and how it works isn't proof. You make that assumption based upon how you have played it and based upon the misinterpretation of the word "or"
it wouldn't work either way cause there is no order in witch you take archetypes, when you decide to take archetypes its all simultaneous if one is changing or replacing ability C no otherarchetype also selected can change or replace ability C because they would conflict no mater what.Another way to look at if something is okay that happen at the same time is to apply them in both orders AKA.
Archetype 1 changes ability A to C
Archetype 2 replaces ability A with Bso you end up with B according you Bevrji ruling.
But then you do it the other way.
Archetype 2 replaces ability A with B
Archetype 1 changes ability A to CArchetype 1 doesn't have an ability A to chance to C anymore.
Thus it can't work.
Then get something from the books that mentions you can chose the order in which ability changes/replacements is allowed, to my knowledge no such wording exist, you are basing all this of of the word "or" and ignoring ares that others have already quoted that disallow such order choosing.
Straight from the PRD under Advanced Core Classes:
A character who takes an alternate class feature does not count as having the class feature that was replaced when meeting any requirements or prerequisites.
A character can take more than one archetype and garner additional alternate class features, but none of the alternate class features can replace or alter the same class feature from the core class as another alternate class feature. For example, a paladin could not be both a hospitaler and an undead scourge since they both modify the smite evil class feature and both replace the aura of justice class feature. A paladin could, however, be both an undead scourge and a warrior of the holy light, since none of their new class features replace the same core class feature.
It flat-out states that you can't alter or replace the same ability twice.
"when you decide to take archetypes its all simultaneous"
Where is that rule?
its all simultaneous because as mentioned you take all a bilitys from an archetype, if Archetype 1 changes ability B and Archetype 2 replaces ability B you no longer have the change from Archetype 1, since rules state you must take all modifications them, since Archetype 2 replaces ability B you no longer have the change from Archetype 1 thus invalidating the Archetype pairing.
Straight from the PRD under Advanced Core Classes:
It flat-out states that you can't alter or replace the same ability twice.A character who takes an alternate class feature does not count as having the class feature that was replaced when meeting any requirements or prerequisites.
A character can take more than one archetype and garner additional alternate class features, but none of the alternate class features can replace or alter the same class feature from the core class as another alternate class feature. For example, a paladin could not be both a hospitaler and an undead scourge since they both modify the smite evil class feature and both replace the aura of justice class feature. A paladin could, however, be both an undead scourge and a warrior of the holy light, since none of their new class features replace the same core class feature.
we have stated that to him be he's trying to weasel his way arround the word "or" he's not changing an ability twice, and he's not replaceing an ability twice, so he believes changing then replacing an ability is allowed due to his interpretation of the word "or".
bverji is trying to read it in a very limited way.
He is reading it as replacing and altering are two different things and that if you alter it you can still replace it.
He is wrong of course, but that is what he is trying to do.
bverji, the rules are quite clear on this, you cannot alter and/or replace the same ability. If two archetypes replace and/or modify the same ability then you cannot take both of them.
It doesn't matter if one is altering and the other is replacing, you cannot do it. Period.
You are alone in your assertion and you are flat out wrong.