Now I'm not talking about players that are too new to fully understand the game. I'm not talking about players that don't take the plot seriously and do random dumb things. I'm not talking about players that just make bad decisions. I'm not talking about players that underoptimize because of cool flavor.
I'm talking about people who play for four years and still have no idea to to calculate their melee damage, give their wizard 14 INT or still haven't comprehended how many of what actions they can perform in a turn. Sometimes its a lack of willingness to read the actual rules but sometimes I have parties full of people who are... off is some way that I cannot determine where I'm forced to build characters for them, avoid plots more complicated than "Bad guy over there!", and have to recalculate anything their character does. This causes DM burnout really really fast and it seems like half my parties are like this.
What do you do? What should I do? Fixing the problem should be simple right? Not really...
I tried explaining building a character and the basic combat chapter rules. The results are either people see this as a lecture and only absorb bits of it. I understand this. I didn't 'get' pathfinder until I read the core rulebook, so that's understandable. so...
I tried directing to online guides and srd. This never goes well. Whenever I give out or direct to any resource that involves the internet I will guarantee that at least 3/4s of the entire party will never see it. I might as well have sent emails to mars.
I feel like the only thing I haven't tried was making my own guide to pathfinder in general, but I'm terrified that the amount of work it would take to draw the graphics, write it out and compose it in pdf form would not be worth it because nobody, and I mean nobody, reads any of my handouts and I don't expect this to change.
Its like if you already know what you're doing things will go okay, but if you don't know what you're doing by now this will not change even years from now. I've been to the point where I was almost ready to quite and play FATE instead because I can (and have) reasonably run that even if the players don't bother reading the rules.
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It seems like you have players with a lack of interest in learning the game. Probably it's time to stop coaching them and see if they can rise to the occasion. Following that it might be time to start restricting your group to people who want to play at the same level you do.
If they cared to read, they would. That's the bottom line and you can't make someone else care.
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In a slightly more serious response. Some people are at best casual players, they play more for the social aspect of gaming than because of the game. They have no desire to put any time into learning a game. The truth is you can't force them to want to learn the game. All you can do is find something simple they can figure out, keep doing what you are doing or find a new group. Personally I would go with option three.
I would try a less complicated game. Pathfinder is a fairly mechanics-intensive game, and not everybody is interested in that.
Run a session of Dread or FATE or something, see if they get more invested in the roleplaying.
It's also possible that you and your players don't want the same thing. They may want a simple, kick-in-the-doors, beer and pretzels kind of game, and if they do, no amount of rules primers is going to help.
So talk to them about what they want.
Just to note, I'm not talking about one group, This is most players that I run into outside of PFS. PFS players and players that have an idea of what they are doing seem to more often have lives and schedule hokey pokey comes into effect. There are plenty of roleplayers in my area and plenty of FATE, Savage Worlds ect going on but I want to play pathfinder and these are the people that answer my recruitments, and this includes people who have been playing 3.X for YEARS.
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You can lead a gamer to mountain dew but you cant make them drink. You will have to run a less serious perhaps lower challenge game to suit the players. If that sounds like too much of a compromise, you may have to bow out. Sometimes your best friends make the worst gamers. There is no right or wrong way, each player must find their on path.
I would second the notion of running a less complicated system. Or an MMO. Seriously, this just gives the impression of folks who dont care about the game to begin with. I would simply give up on GM-ing myself.
Hopefully Mark Hoover might pass by, I know he has experiences with similar groups.
Okay, this has happened to me. Though one of my problems was actually having stupid players. It got to me enough that I had to break my game apart- invite the good players and grab some other friends from other groups to make a decent gaming group.
Just because people like each other and are friends doesn't mean that they will all enjoy the same games in the same way. I have friends who min/max and people who roleplay their character selection; they don't work all that well together in these games, as the Min/Maxers are playing to kill, smash, and outsmart creatures, while the roleplayers are playing to charm, interact, and create a story.
They can work, but it takes a very good DM to juggle their players' different needs, but at the end of the day, you need to have players who excite you, surprise you, in order to keep your spirits up.
This seems to be a great game of Diablo. Or if this is really simple gauntlet run? Either way switch to something less number heavy. I don't know why but players like it when they don't have to make character sheets, but as a result they have no clue how to play them. Refuse to make anything but fighters if they don't make their own character sheet. If they are all fighters they can't possibly mess up since they are so simple.
Are they your friends? Do you want to keep gaming with them? Do you want it to be Pathfinder?
If the answer to any of the above questions is no, either change the players or change the game.
If you want to keep playing Pathfinder with this group, you can either give up on them learning the rules, or find some new way to teach them.
Don't teach them the rules. Teach them a rule. Use it in play. Offer an incentive. Potions are cheap and expendable, and might get them excited to use it in the game. So start the game off by saying "A free healing potion to the player who can tell me the first two things that happen when you try to start a grapple." Or "An invisibility potion to the first person to tell me what being Invisibile gives you." The quiz is open book. Make sure the answers can be short. Choose a reward that is relevant to the game you have planned.
They won't learn the whole PRD, but they might learn a couple things. Then again, they might not. Can't hurt to try.
I swear that I've seen cheat sheets for actions and what have you somewhere on the interwebs...
Like this. Not the best I can find, but maybe printing them out for those players might help?
I'm talking about people who play for four years and still have no idea to to calculate their melee damage, give their wizard 14 INT or still haven't comprehended how many of what actions they can perform in a turn. Sometimes its a lack of willingness to read the actual rules but sometimes I have parties full of people who are... off is some way that I cannot determine where I'm forced to build characters for them, avoid plots more complicated than "Bad guy over there!", and have to recalculate anything their character does. This causes DM burnout really really fast and it seems like half my parties are like this.
What do you do? What should I do? Fixing the problem should be simple right? Not really...
...
Its like if you already know what you're doing things will go okay, but if you don't know what you're doing by now this will not change even years from...
So it isn't that they are stupid, they just don't care to learn the minutiae of the Pathfinder system.
Maybe they aren't looking for a serious game?
I feel like the only thing I haven't tried was making my own guide to pathfinder in general, but I'm terrified that the amount of work it would take to draw the graphics, write it out and compose it in pdf form would not be worth it because nobody, and I mean nobody, reads any of my handouts and I don't expect this to change.
Are you aware of the strategy guide that is upcoming? Its purpose is to sort of walk people through some of the basics of pathfinder instead of that incomprehensible tome that is the core book. It might help, and is certainly easier then creating the same thing yourself.
Are they your friends? Do you want to keep gaming with them? Do you want it to be Pathfinder?
Sometimes they're my friends but for the most part these are people that answer to recruitment calls for pathfinder.
Since I've started playing pathfinder I've had a rotating door of players. The only constant is my girlfriend who is pretty terrible at the game but until level 6 or 8 it isn't that bad. I always have to help her make a sheet each level but if it's on her sheet she can do it, I just have to explain it and print out what it does.
I want to play Pathfinder. I like Pathfinder. I also own a copy of FATE and D&D 5e but I want to play Pathfinder right now.
They won't learn the whole PRD, but they might learn a couple things. Then again, they might not. Can't hurt to try.
I say that I know the game has a lot of rules but if you read chapters 'Combat', 'Magic', and 'Getting Started' everything else falls into place. Its not that hard of a game.
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If you are making recruitment calls for long term campaigns then you should stop doing that. Start with meetups to talk to the person to make sure they are bearable. Then put them through a trial of one shots or PFS scenarios to make sure they can meld with the group. Its a process but I find it to be worth it in the long run. Though I am super picky about who makes it into my home games YMMV.
I would try a less complicated game. Pathfinder is a fairly mechanics-intensive game, and not everybody is interested in that.
Run a session of Dread or FATE or something, see if they get more invested in the roleplaying.
It's also possible that you and your players don't want the same thing. They may want a simple, kick-in-the-doors, beer and pretzels kind of game, and if they do, no amount of rules primers is going to help.
So talk to them about what they want.
5th Edition and Numenera are also good rules-lite systems that reward role-playing with mechanical benefits.
Being a player character takes a lot of work but if it takes your party the entire session to ford the river chances are they won't survive the dungeon crawl that comes after.
My advice when having players who are inept at grasping the rules of Pathfinder is to try an edition that's a little more their speed and work your way up to the more complex systems.
nothing wrong with casual gaming if that's your thing. Perhaps you should meter your expectations and try having a bit more fun?
Live games I take it? Do you have a PFS presence nearby? If you do go game there and find people who enjoy the kind of game you want to run. Lots of good players there. Lots of bad too, but go there a few weekends and you can weed them out.
If its online play its a little trickier as many people are good at making a good first impression, and then well frankly suck. For online game play I usually go through 2-4 players to get a good one. Luckily I have a pretty steady group, but I usually try and bring in one new person every game, and usually one player needs to drop every campaign or so because of life, or they don't like what I'm running next (I run a lot of different genres, sometimes people don't like Fallout or steampunk). I just accept I'll probably burn through several to find that one, and my players are pretty much veterans so expect it.
Are they your friends? Do you want to keep gaming with them? Do you want it to be Pathfinder?Sometimes they're my friends but for the most part these are people that answer to recruitment calls for pathfinder.
Since I've started playing pathfinder I've had a rotating door of players. The only constant is my girlfriend who is pretty terrible at the game but until level 6 or 8 it isn't that bad. I always have to help her make a sheet each level but if it's on her sheet she can do it, I just have to explain it and print out what it does.
What about sticking to something like E6? Where you never enter into the high complexity of upper level characters?
A few things came to mind.
With many people it isn't a matter of can't understand the rules. It's just that they don't want to be bothered with it. I don't think PF is the best game for those kinds of people, but it is the most common game that you can find a group to join. {shrug} I haven't tried it, but I've heard the Dresden RPG would meet that type of gamers requirements much better.
A lot of people will respond to an open recruitment call because it is the only game they see happening when they can make it. Even though it isn't their favorite type of game. Also, you can get some real creepy, drunken, drug addict, or other problem people into your home that way. I don't do those open postings any more.
I use PFS for my recruiting. First, I like PFS for a way to get more game time without committing to another group. Second, I pay attention to the other GM's and players. A very few are so obnoxious that I don't want to sit at a table with them and will make an excuse to leave or go to a different table if I see they are there. Most of them are ok to game with occasionally, but I don't want them in my home game.
A few seem to approach the game similarly to me. I strike up a conversation before and/or after a few sessions to get a better idea of their personality. If they seem like the type of people that I enjoy spending time with, I invite them to the next home game (or I could ask if they have an open spot in their home game).
It is not a quick process, but I have finally gotten a pretty stable group of people that get along pretty well. They're not as good as the group I had back in middle school, but I'm not sure anything ever will be again. (My wife insists I'm remembering things better than they ever were, but I'm sure she is mistaken.)
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Just to note, I'm not talking about one group, This is most players that I run into outside of PFS.
I doubt this. I can see one group sure, but if it's everyone, maybe the problem isnt them.
Just to note, I'm not talking about one group, This is most players that I run into outside of PFS.I doubt this. I can see one group sure, but if it's everyone, maybe the problem isnt them.
Not everyone, but most that don't have schedule problems or some other problem occured.
To be more specific, since I started GMing (Not that long ago) These are the people that I felt were great at the game.
I had a group of three players that were either game competent or developing but in game and out of game ran into conflict with my girlfriend. I tried to handle it in a 'lets spend some time to talk about what the problems are' but I got called on not defending my girlfriend from people that insult her so all three of those players were gone.
I have one person who've I've played under and and GMed during PFS. I started GMing him during a home game but he had work reschedules.
I had a couple that wanted to play but they had family emergencies that quickly took them out of the game.
My girlfriend's sister is fairly competent albeit a rules lawyer but I cant have her and her sister play at the same time because they'll fight.
Another couple recently wanted to play but could only make one session because of work. They're on standby in case I get a weekend game going.
One player just vanished. I have no idea what happened to him. One player has some work and schedule changes so he won't be able to play in a few weeks.
One player had to move for work, is playing with another group a few cities over.
One player really does not like one of my other players for some reason I don't know.
One player really does not like my girlfriend for some reason that I do know.
One player got increasingly late due to commuting to the game and gave up and went to a game closer to him.
And that's how the people who know what they are doing rotate out of my games.
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So effectively 5 'good' players are not playing with you because they dont get along with your girlfriend? I feel like we are jumping over an obvious problem here...
So effectively 5 'good' players are not playing with you because they dont get along with your girlfriend? I feel like we are jumping over an obvious problem here...
I think it was more, Player A doesn't like girlfriend, player B doesn't like player x, sister and girlfriend act like, well, sisters and player c and d got into a fight with girlfriend and refused to work it out (which is on them and not the girlfriend)
Let me count,
First three players had conflict with my girlfriend but conflict with two specifically my girlfriend went as far as 'banning' them from the house so I'll count two. (+2)
My girlfriend's sister counts as one despite fighting on separate occasions. (+1)
One player does not like my girlfriend. (+1)
So basically that's 4 'good' players that are not playing with me because they don't get along with my girlfriend. 5 if you count the full group of three that in the first instance. Less if you count her sister as just sister stuff. And that's out of 14 good players that are no longer playing. I don't know what to make of those numbers I'm just clarifying what the numbers are.
So, get a new girlfriend who doesn't play Pathfinder?
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So, get a new girlfriend who doesn't play Pathfinder?
I don't think that's practical.
Let me count,
First three players had conflict with my girlfriend but conflict with two specifically my girlfriend went as far as 'banning' them from the house so I'll count two. (+2)
My girlfriend's sister counts as one despite fighting on separate occasions. (+1)
One player does not like my girlfriend. (+1)
So basically that's 4 'good' players that are not playing with me because they don't get along with my girlfriend. 5 if you count the full group of three that in the first instance. Less if you count her sister as just sister stuff. And that's out of 14 good players that are no longer playing. I don't know what to make of those numbers I'm just clarifying what the numbers are.
I'd call the sister a .5
So 3.5 out of 14 because of the girlfriend. I don't think the girlfriend is the problem. Just plain old bad luck. And it sounds like the two that got banned from the house were dicks, so no big loss there, imho.
Hard to say for certain without getting the other side's POV of course.
I'd preferred if it was not assumed that my girlfriend is a relevant factor in this topic.
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Good luck with that.
Hard to say for certain without getting the other side's POV of course.
As he mentioned that they were insulting her, I'd say the problem was on their end. Because she obviously got mad enough to use the ban hammer, which means they had to know she was feeling insulted and didn't bother to apologize.
Anyhow Malwing, I don't think your girlfriend is a factor. I think you're just having bad luck with players.
Kill'em...works for me. It's only a game after all,and if they aren't that invested anyway....
Sometimes a little ultra-violence is just the thing to make a player start to read and refocus on building a good character.
If not,they'll be out of the way until they get their next speedbump scratched out.
In real life alot of people are stupid,so dumb adventurers are just par for the course.
For every party of Epic heroes there's one full of Epic Dufusses just waiting to become a statistic...
...This is THEIR story :)
This works best if your running a module...says on the cover APL 5
You guys are 5th level right? That way their deaths aren't on your hands for "throwing too much".
If you kill'em and they leave and don't come back...they will likely tell others why they left.
Hearing a DM's game is tough can make optimizers show up for the
"Pepsi Challenge".
IMHO Molly Coddling them is the worst thing to do.
If you want a crunchy game with crunchy players,running some watered down rules lite system will probably leave you feeling dissatisfied as a DM.
I don't intend to disparage simpler games...but they tend to provide a different type of satisfaction.The kind you'd get from a good artistic performance,not the rush of winning a chess tournament.
So a new gf is out of the picture…fair enough.
That leaves you in a poor predicament. How bad do you want good players and playing pathfinder? If you need this, PF is my addiction of choice for instance, you need to speak with your gf and reason with her explaining this. If she is unwilling to be an adult and let them( the two that were banned) play then that is something you need to live.
My next point is more helpful most likely. Don't go over the rules with them anymore unless they ask for it. As a GM tell them they can't do something if it violates the rules. By knowing the rules and them not and not asking, it will work out fine as is or they will figure out how to learn the rules in a way that works for them.
Also when I GM I may provide a recommendation such as "Make sure you know your grapple rules". When a player helps to speed up game play and can assist another player I award due diligence with a small amount of xp or let them pull off awesome rp things depending on what they enjoy. Its not ideal or perfect but it works for my group.
Eitherway good luck.
So a new gf is out of the picture…fair enough.
That leaves you in a poor predicament. How bad do you want good players and playing pathfinder? If you need this, PF is my addiction of choice for instance, you need to speak with your gf and reason with her explaining this. If she is unwilling to be an adult and let them( the two that were banned) play then that is something you need to live.
Eitherway good luck.
You're assuming the two that were banned deserve to be invited back. If they can't behave like adults and refrain from insulting someone just because they may not like them very much, I'd say the GF was right to ban them and that he should not talk to her about inviting them back.
Honestly, we don't know the exact details of the banning and it may be that inviting them back is not the right thing to do. You're assuming the girlfriend is the one being juvenile when it could easily be the two other players.
So a new gf is out of the picture…fair enough.
That leaves you in a poor predicament. How bad do you want good players and playing pathfinder? If you need this, PF is my addiction of choice for instance, you need to speak with your gf and reason with her explaining this. If she is unwilling to be an adult and let them( the two that were banned) play then that is something you need to live.
Eitherway good luck.You're assuming the two that were banned deserve to be invited back. If they can't behave like adults and refrain from insulting someone just because they may not like them very much, I'd say the GF was right to ban them and that he should not talk to her about inviting them back.
Honestly, we don't know the exact details of the banning and it may be that inviting them back is not the right thing to do. You're assuming the girlfriend is the one being juvenile when it could easily be the two other players.
That ship sailed a long time ago so assume that those players will never be back. I won't elaborate but out of that group only one is available and I wouldn't play with him as a player due to dramatically different play styles/goals so the entire idea is off the table.
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Honestly, we don't know the exact details of the banning and it may be that inviting them back is not the right thing to do. You're assuming the girlfriend is the one being juvenile when it could easily be the two other players.
Yeah, I feel we don't really need to know the details. You don't come to someone's house as a guest to play a game and then continue to insult your host. Beyond that, it's just unproductive to continuously insult another player at the table, whether it's the GM's girlfriend or not.
Malwing, I don't know how long your girlfriend had to put up with those two, but you both have my sympathy, and you're well rid of them. I've had to ban a player because he simply could not stop snapping at my wife. I'd warn him, it would let up for a session or two, then he'd start in again. Finally, I had to tell him he was not invited back.
He even knew the rules really well, and never had to ask which die to roll. But I didn't feel like I lost a good player. Part of knowing how to play the game is being able to get along with the other people at the table. Even if you don't like them. In other words, they're obviously not the kind of players you're looking for.
Of what's been said already, which ideas sound like solutions you could try? If we know more about what you're willing or able to try, maybe more people can supply aid on those lines.
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I feel your pain. With 20 years of military service behind me I went through years of getting a good group built up, then we would all move on to a new base and I'd start again. When I moved to Ohio as my last assignment I thought I found a good group but everybody was young college guys and the group slowly devolved into a crappy bunch of frat wannabees playing out their perverted fantasies (3 years of my life I won't get back). I bailed as I didn't feel clean after the last few game sessions due to changes in the players in that group. Found a new group, got into it and was happy with this group for 6 years. Slowly over the last 3 years everybody moved or moved on to new interests. Now onto my 3rd and 4th groups here (kids have grown and I have more game time, yay) and am pretty happy; but I expect that in time these groups will move on too. It's kind of the nature of gaming groups.
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Lock them in the basement with no food or water untill they fully understand the rules. All stupid questions will be answered with napalm.
This is how you begin teaching people, humans are primates. Primal things like starvation, thirst and fire will get them to learn really quick.
Pain also works.
Things have been much better when I started using Adventure Paths with hard rails and an obvious carrot to follow. Its mostly 'follow the yellow brick road' and say silly things along the way. At the worst I have players that solve mysteries like a video game rpg, i.e. they touch everything and talk to every NPC regardless of relevance and apply every item to every object/person to make things happen.
I've never, in my memory anyway, encountered a "dumb" player. However, since starting games on these boards I have encounter a different problem, and think it safe to say that generally more than half of the players in my games here are very intelligent, and at the same time very distressing to me as a GM because they simply do not seem at all interested in talking to other players.
Keep in mind in some cases I'm not talking about dumb in game but in general. As in talking has been the first thing to do and repeated. As in I'll generate rules cheat sheets and handouts for suggestions insist that some players read the chapter on how magic works if they want to be a caster, offer off days to explain rules and how things work, help build characters, give handouts and advice on how to do things like solve mysteries, advise on not going past the Core Rulebook if the amount of books are too complicated, offer sessions with the beginner box until more of the rules are clear, ect.
I still get situations like "I want to ask the NPC if she has a big clue" and having to explain how to add up attack bonuses to someone who I know has played at least five campaigns before.
Also keep in mind that this never happens in PFS where I have less communication with players.