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No mention of the UC story feat Damned? Since taking the class completes the feat, you end up with a bonus on charisma checks against evil outsiders and a +2 enhancement bonus to an ability of your choice (like intelligence for sorcerors).
Also, the layout appears to be broken for me, with the text being behind the text blocks.
This looks really informative, thank you. Will be back with more comments and feedback later; but for now (slightly burned out ex-DM speaking) I see alignment arguments in your future ("What do you mean 'looking more and more like an E'?! Yes, my character bathes in the blood of the innocent and eats babies, but you can do that and be Neutral - he'd only be Evil if he really enjoyed it!")...
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Firstly, wow - great guide, lots of good ideas and things I hadn't thought of. I will definitely be using at least some of this to construct my budding evil wizard. Thank you. Thoughts & ideas below.
I look forward to reading your thoughts on planar binding.
Levelling: I really like the idea of going for level 1 Diabolist as early as possible: the major bonuses (imp companion, Cha boost for interacting with devils) are there straight off. I'd completely missed the fact that the imp companion is free to replace! Heh heh heh. Have to say though, that - for me - there's a certain 'meh' associated with achieving a prestige class via summoning a ... Lemure. Pretty sure that the other diabolists will be snickering up their sleeves at you, but that isn't an issue of mechanics. Who knows, maybe Asmodeus will be amused that your character found a way to game the system...
How far do you go and what do you lose? I'm not so sure that the level 2 & 3 bonuses are that good: if you're into summoning, are you not likely to have taken Augment Summons fairly early into your feat tree? And as you point out, if you're not casting Planar Ally then the level 2 bonus is less useful. The Cha bonuses are nice to have, but the next one isn't till level 4, and then level 7! What are you giving up in your 'normal' class to get those?
Well, if you're a cleric, not much: so you can't channel as effectively, ho hum. Given that you're most likely channeling negative energy anyway, not such a big deal. Your domain powers might not be quite as effective (call the waaaaahmbulance!). Also, the blast and teleport powers you get as a high-level diabolist start to look pretty good by comparison with what you could "achieve" using clerical spells (protip: if you took cleric to go pure blaster and utility teleport, you're probably doing it wrong). Any reason not to go diabolist all the way?
If you're a wizard, you're losing/delaying the bonus feats you get at levels 10, 15 and 20. Bigger deal than the cleric, but acceptable, although the PrC is pretty feat-starved. You're also losing out on the free spells you get at each new wizard level; how big a deal this is depends on how readily available research time (and/or other peoples' spell books) are in your campaign. You're also losing some effectiveness on your school powers - most of these aren't earth-shattering, though. Maybe grab the level 4 diabolist's charisma bonus and stop there? You can cast dimension door already, and the ray powers are nice but nothing you can't do without. Just don't die. If you're afraid to give up the comfort of getting to level 5 diabolist, maybe you're not cut out to meddle with the powers of hell?
Sorcerers probably have the most to gain - OK, your bloodline powers increase with sorcerer level, as do bloodline spells, but are they really that good? Given that Cha is your major stat (protip: if it isn't, you're probably doing it wrong), the level 4 and 7 diabolist bonuses might not be much - but the hellfire at level 2 is a bit of free (instantaneous!) metamagic and the infernal transport and hellfire ray are effectively free spells! Make your infernal bargain and take your chances. Any reason not to go diabolist all the way?
Thoughts on abjurant salt: In addition to teleportation, it's not clear whether a summoned creature could either brush it aside (probably not), or throw rocks at it (probably yes). Or blast it with fireballs. Or just pick up a bucket of water and use that - hey, not directly touching the salt!
Thoughts on planar ally: yes, mechanically inferior to planar binding - but the advantage (that they arrive well-disposed to help and have been sent specifically to assist) could be quite significant. We are, after all, dealing with Evil outsiders and specifically with devils, who will do their utmost to test the limits of any agreement: the fact that planar ally is less coercive should be a big deal. Perhaps this is less in the mechanics and more in the gameplay.
Large numbers of summons: this would seem to be an issue that PbP was almost designed to handle: a separate alias for each minion, with a link in the header section to its stat block and a reminder of what "Diabolist Dave's Minion #1" is this week. Also, you can have hours to plan out your strategy, if that's what floats your hell-raft.
Diabolist is a PrC that has a vast potential for power. It also has vast potential for complicating the players' lives. You can't reflect that in the mechanics, but a DM could definitely have some fun:
Alice and Bob are not alone: So there you are, your summoned Barbazus Alice and Bob have happily carved up your enemies. Job done, they leave. End of the matter? Um, no. Alice and Bob have a supervisor (let's call them ... Eve). "Eve" is likely watching when Alice and Bob are on duty. What they learn, "Eve" learns. And "Eve" has a supervisor. And so does that supervisor. And so on, all the way to Asmodeus. If you call on the powers of hell often enough, you may attract significant interest. Maybe the powers of hell will call on you. A DM could make the PC pretty uncomfortable with that idea. Just a reminder, every now and again, that Asmodeus is the ultimate chessmaster and it's his pawns that you're playing with.
Alice and Bob aren't happy: They don't LIKE being summoned. You left them alive at the end of their service? Maybe they have ... not friends exactly, but allies. Maybe someone up the chain owes them a favour. Someone powerful enough to bother even a party of PC's. Maybe that someone sees an easy way to pay off that favour. Or... You deliberately let them die at the end of their service?! Maybe that gets noticed, too. Word gets around. Maybe Alice and Bob's replacements have an agenda of their own. Which leads us to...
Alice, Bob and the Xanatos pile-up:Uh-oh. While Alice and Bob were working for you, they were working for someone else, too! Maybe they were only pretending to serve you (the DM rolled the dice in secret, right?)... Or, maybe, while serving you, they messed up someone else's plans. Maybe that someone is a significant someone. Maybe that someone isn't happy with Alice and Bob. Maybe there's enough unhappiness to go round.
And Asmodeus laughs, long and loud.
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And, oh look, it's yet a third set of rules for handling damnation.
Should House Thrune have all the thrice-damned fun?
Occult Mysteries has a book that grants a +5 circumstance bonus on opposed charisma checks against devils after casting planar binding as well as instructions on creating more durable magic circles against evil.
For 2255gp that's a steal. The name is 'The inward-facing circle'.
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Occult Mysteries has a book that grants a +5 circumstance bonus on opposed charisma checks against devils after casting planar binding as well as instructions on creating more durable magic circles against evil.
For 2255gp that's a steal. The name is 'The inward-facing circle'.Googling on that title, all I find is "(When making Knowledge: [the planes] checks, this treatise grants a +2 circumstance bonus on checks concerning devils. Using the treatise in this way takes 1 minute.)" -- Which would be worth having by itself, to be sure.
Doug M.
His insights into the infernal mind give the reader a +5 circumstance bonus on opposed Charisma checks to negotiate with a devil after casting planar binding or a similar spell.
So, for 2,255 gp, you get
- +2 circumstance bonus on Knowledge (planes] checks concerning devils
- a focus to use plane shift to travel to a specific layer of hell
- a spell book containing greater planar binding, planar binding, lesser planar binding, agonize, dimensional anchor, sacrifice, magic circle against evil, communal protection from evil
- the option to create a permanent circle that isn't broken by footsteps or a gust of wind
- a +5 bonus on charisma checks against called devils
It also contains the true name of some devils, but all of those are currently bound to House Thrune.
All very good comments, especially on the value of the Cha bonuses; I'm convinced. Duly taken on board for my wizard character. Thanks.
Two rules points: looks like planar ally spells are evil if you summon an evil outsider - makes the Maleficium damnation feat look even more attractive!
Second, to qualify for the PrC you "Must have conjured a devil using lesser planar ally or lesser planar binding (or a similar spell) and successfully coaxed the fiend into performing a task longer than 1 day."
Despite liking porn (great spot, BTW! Made me chuckle), lemures have no listed Int (you don't have to be sentient to enjoy some things) - can you therefore bargain with them?
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If you ever do a trait section, these might be of interest:
Dark Magic Affinity (Tiefling)
You have an instinctive talent for unleashing the vilest spells, letting the taint in your blood empower your malicious magic.
Benefit Whenever you cast a spell with the [evil] descriptor, you act as if you were one level higher for the purpose of determining that spell’s effects.
with Channel Hellfire
Planar Savant: You have always had an innate sense of the workings of the planes and their denizens. You may use your Charisma modifier when making Knowledge (planes) checks instead of your Intelligence modifier.
for sorcerors.
I didnt notice if this had been added, but there i a new trait that might be useful:
Wicked Leader (Social)
Benefit(s): You gain a +1 trait bonus on Charisma checks against evil creatures.
If you select the Leadership feat or the Vile Leadership feat at any point when you meet the prerequisites for that feat, you can recruit a cohort who is up to 1 level lower than you (instead of the normal requirement that your cohort must be 2 or more levels lower than you are) as long as your cohort is evil.
The bonus on cha checks is notable.
Jadeite and Williamoak, those are fine traits. I wasn't going to include traits (because there are *so* damn many of them now), but I will add these to the guide. Thanks! If you know of any more, send them along.
Doug M.
No problem Doug! I happened across it while looking to make an evil "snow white" type character. She would sing to her imps rather than her woodland creatures.
{. . .}
Also, the layout appears to be broken for me, with the text being behind the text blocks.
At least this lets me know this isn't just my obsolete computer (had to pull a 2003 vintage computer back into service after my less obsolete computer fried).
I'm posting from phone now, so I can't link it to you, but "The inward facing circle" (the book in the previous posts) is on the Archives of Nethys.
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Would love to read it, but large blocks of text are interposed on top of the main text and making a mess of things, what do you have this formatted for?
Also, Boon Companion would do nothing for the imp unless you had multiple non Diabolist classes, the feat will bring your companion up to your character level, which the imp already is if you only have one non Diabolist class anyway.
Finally complete, the Guide can now be found right here, and Broken Zenith tells me it should be up in the Guides thread soon as well. This was published in installments here over several months, so thanks to everyone who commented on those threads.
A couple of notes about the current version. First, it's just a simple Word doc, with no illustrations or clever graphics. I respect people who can turn their guides into works of art, but my talents don't lie in that direction. Second, it was getting unmanageably huge until I realized that the Planar Binding stuff could and should be cracked out into its own guide. So, watch for DMDM's Guide to Planar Binding, out (I hope) next week.
So here it is! Comments are very welcome, I'd love to hear what you think.
cheers,
Doug M.
Interesting guide, but I disagree on the Diabolist Capstone being situational.
Here is why: By the time that Ability kicks in(LvL 15-18), a well prepared Diabolist will have researched the name of at least one powerful go to go Outsider(also helps with a Will save).
In most cases there should have been one month to have done so. Pick one Cornugon or whatever and make it your go to go creature.
You'll always have this guy for back up.
This is an excellent guide. Particularly since I'm making a diabolist for WotW.
The formatting is fine for me - using Firefox and android.
One feat I'm considering is Esoteric Advantage to reduce the SR of a creature. Effectively getting another lot of Spell Penetration. It might not be needed, but it looks useful.
A thought-provoking guide. Thanks.
There's a bit in the inquisitor section that says they don't get the planar ally spell unless they get it through a domain, which is confusing, as inquisitors don't normally get bonus spells through their domain. That should be clarified or deleted.
Additionally, if you could justify worshipping Desna whilst being a diabolist, taking her Deific Obedience feat as an Evangelist would give you your charisma bonus onto both concentration checks and rolls to beat SR - her 2nd boon of Starlit Caster. Plus a bit of extra damage on some spells. Guess who all future sorcerors and bards and Oracles of mine will be worshipping. ..
I searched it again and again, but it's not on the Archives anymore. :/
I swear it's in Occult Mysteries though (just checked my PDF!).
I think you are missing a class/choice that is VERY good for the PrC. Divine CHA caster.
Skills: An oracle with the Outer Rifts mystery adds Fly, Intimidate, Knowledge (arcana), and Survival to her list of class skills.
Bonus Spells: endure elements (2nd), resist energy (4th), vermin shape I (6th), confusion (8th), lesser planar binding (10th), planar binding (12th), insanity (14th), greater planar binding (16th), imprisonment (18th).
Dread Resilience (Ex): You have been hardened by exposure to the otherworldly energies of the Outer Rifts, and you just keep getting tougher. You gain a +1 inherent bonus to Constitution upon taking this revelation and another for every four oracle levels gained thereafter. You must be at least 9th level to select this revelation.
Planar Infusion (Su): As a standard action once per day, you can cause a 20-foot-spread to gain either the mildly chaotic-aligned or mildly evil-aligned planar trait for a number of rounds equal to your oracle level. Lawful creatures in a chaotic-aligned area take a –2 circumstance penalty on all Charisma-based checks, as do good creatures in an evil-aligned area. At 11th level, the infusion makes the area strongly aligned, which causes the –2 circumstance penalty to apply on all Intelligence-, Wisdom-, and Charisma-based checks made by any creature that lacks the matching alignment component (these penalties stack with those from the lower-level effect). You must be chaotic or evil to select this revelation, and you can only infuse an area with an alignment that matches a component of your own alignment.
Rift Magic (Su): Your spells gain a +4 bonus on caster level checks made to overcome the spell resistance of chaotic outsiders and evil outsiders.
Telepathy (Su): You can mentally communicate with any other creature within 100 feet that has a language, as per the telepathy power of demons and angels. You must be at least 11th level before selecting this revelation.
As a dip class of 4 levels, this would allow the Oracle to still grab up the Greater Planar Binding spell as well as save some feats on Spell Penetration for working on the creatures you call.
Also, one of those feats saved would get you Divine Protection, +CHA to all your saving throws.
One more thing to look into, if you are going CHA caster, Deific Obedience for Calistria. Eventually gets your CHA mod to AC as well as your DEX mod.
Oracle does work, but Planar Infusion doesn’t help a diabolist much. One of the class requirements is having an alignment of LN, LE, or NE. Therefore you can't infuse an area with anything detrimental to Devils. It's useful against other creatures, though.
Oracle does work, but Planar Infusion doesn’t help a diabolist much. One of the class requirements is having an alignment of LN, LE, or NE. Therefore you can't infuse an area with anything detrimental to Devils. It's useful against other creatures, though.
That is exactly the point, it opens up your choices. The entire reason for Planar Binding being better than Planar Ally is being able to pull the right creature for the job. Being able to pin a -4 penalty onto a LG creature when you make that opposed CHA check, possibly as high as -8 (at 11th level) makes things much more likely to go your way. The class is stacking the deck vs Devils already, this just opens up your repertoire. I'd say that helps immensely.
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Oracle does work, but Planar Infusion doesn’t help a diabolist much. One of the class requirements is having an alignment of LN, LE, or NE. Therefore you can't infuse an area with anything detrimental to Devils. It's useful against other creatures, though.That is exactly the point, it opens up your choices. The entire reason for Planar Binding being better than Planar Ally is being able to pull the right creature for the job. Being able to pin a -4 penalty onto a LG creature when you make that opposed CHA check, possibly as high as -8 (at 11th level) makes things much more likely to go your way. The class is stacking the deck vs Devils already, this just opens up your repertoire. I'd say that helps immensely.
LG outsider would only be at -2. He would need to be chaotic for a chaotic infusion and would lose his Diabolist abilities.
It's also *either* chaotic or evil, not both.
I'd allow a CE oracle to infuse once vs Good, and then the following round infuse vs Law, thus achieving both. A diabolist version could only get the Evil infusion.
Rift Magic is useful. I looked at this build for my diabolist but I simply like playing wizards.