|
Throw a Skald in the bandit group.
3 Orc robbers are the toughest CR1 encounter, but they scale off.
2 Orc robbers and their Skald leader makes the encounter utterly deadly.
Similarly, any bandit encounter can be made very hard for CR level by putting the Skald force multiplier in.
And as a GM, having one of the bad guys yelling crazy war cries or murderous threats creates fun for the whole table.
...Ooh, I found a template that could help with making low level NPCs dangerous.
The Troop Template.
"Troop" is an acquired template that can be added to any Small, Medium, or Large construct, elemental, humanoid, outsider, or undead. A troop can incorporate any riding animals used by such creatures as long as such mounts are Medium or Large. A mount and rider together is treated as one creature of the mount's size for all calculations of troop abilities.
A troop is deliberately formed and requires a degree of training and organization beforehand, as well as at least a few minutes of actually ordering ranks before battle. Creatures with Intelligence 2 or less must be under the direct control of intelligent creatures in order to form troops. A troop uses all the base creature’s statistics and special abilities except as noted here.
Size and Type: A troop is a Gargantuan creature composed of twenty small or medium creatures or five large creatures (or riders on large creatures). The troop’s type remains unchanged from the base creature (ignore the type of any mounts).
Hit Dice: A troop has a single pool of Hit Dice and hit points. Troops have half the total hit points and Hit Dice the component creatures. This works out to ten times the base creature's values for small and medium creatures, five times the creature's values for large creatures. Include mounts in the calculation, including the mount's size. Reducing a troop to 0 hit points or lower causes it to lose cohesion break up into component creatures which are broken and run away from the battle to the best of their ability. Damage taken until that point does not degrade its ability to attack or resist attack. Troops are never staggered or reduced to a dying state by damage.
Speed: A troop’s speed is 10 feet slower than that of the base creature (or its mount, if applicable).
Armor Class: As the base creature, with a +4 troop bonus. Ignore the Troop’s new size modifier; AC is based on the size code of
http://hastur.net/wiki/Troop_%28D%26D_creatures%29
Sorry if the link doesn't work, I'm not used to posting them on threads.
I remembered coming across something a few years back but couldn't remember what it was, when I remembered the name I Googled D&D troop template and it should be the third result.
Why not check out one of the most famous bandits of myth. Robin Hood. No matter what version you look at Robin had some interesting supporting characters that would translate into clerics, bards, rogues, druids, rangers through to total exotics like paladins and wizards.
I don't know what version you've read, but I don't recall any version ever having anything remotely resembling magic in it.
I don't know what version you've read, but I don't recall any version ever having anything remotely resembling magic in it.Why not check out one of the most famous bandits of myth. Robin Hood. No matter what version you look at Robin had some interesting supporting characters that would translate into clerics, bards, rogues, druids, rangers through to total exotics like paladins and wizards.
Though in a fantasy world they might be bit more magical. Friar Tuck as a cleric, though the rest would probably stick to rogues, fighters, rangers and the like
I meant how do they work?
Similar to 4E minion rules. 4 underlings of a CR are worth approximate 1 normal creature of that CR. The underlings have fixed HP, AC, saves, and damage based on their CR. They can get special abilities based on what they are - DR, SLAs, etc.
It works kind of like a template, honestly.
You can treat the HP as just normal HP, or you can make it more 4Eish by using a threshold rule - a minion that's injured below the threshold is fine, injured above the threshold becomes wounded, and injured again to above the threshold dies.
|
Usually most bandits in my setting aren't high levels, because there is frankly no need to. Now, of course there are specialized bandits, more like adventurers bandits.
Some adventurers simply wait for other adventurers to go into dungeon, fight monsters, collect the gold and they attack adventurers coming out of dungeons, knowing that they probably wasted a bunch of resources. Some kill "newbie" adventurers and stack up on gold and magical items, while other bandits just rob them of their loot and run away.
Rappan Atthuk had a funny encounter like that, but well, won't say much about it, since it might be a spoiler to some people.
There's a metagame issue here. Why (as the GM) do you want to add bandits? Is it:
1) Simulationist. Bandits operate in this area, so the PCs are likely to meet them in a random sandbox encounter.
It shouldn't matter whether they make a level-relevant fight provided you don't waste time on a dull fight. But you need to make it 'realistic'.
2) Gamist. Bandits sound like fun. Not had bandits yet in this campaign. Let's try some bandits this evening. Mmmm, fried bandit.
Here you need to make it balanced and level-relevant. Though if it doesn't look doable, don't bother at all.
3) Storyteller. The bandit leader has kidnapped (and/or is in love with) the missing princess, etc.
This doesn't need to be realistic, but it should be entertaining and point the PCs in the right direction afterwards, so you'll need to hand out clues at some point.
The objections above are simulationist/gamist. Realistic bandits are tedious when numerous and irrelevant when not. Any bandit attack should be done from ambush by large numbers, and the bandits should run away as soon as they think they'll lose. Given enough cover and prepared ground, they'll be hard to pursue and be too separated to take out effectively with AoE spells. So they'll shoot a few rounds of arrows achieving nothing very conclusive, the PC paladin will charge into a pit, the PC casters will use a few spells and a dozen bandits will be killed or injured, and the rest will melt away. A Gamist GM will have them fight to the death; a storyteller will have the leader drop some Huge Clue as he falls.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I am a mix of 1 and 2. I play sandbox games and plan for what makes sense to be in what area, but try to keep most random/mundane encounters within a reasonable range of the party.
I like bandits as random encounters, and wolves. Played too much Skyrim I think. :P
|
If I was a bandit and a powerful group was slaughtering and doing heroics I would not attack them. I would cause problems elsewhere, get the government to kick them out, ruin their reputation, harass anyone who helped them, reward thieves who take their stuff, if pushed use hit and run tactics (in cities or very large range), buy a scroll of a powerful spell to really mess them up, get a legit bureaucratic job and make their life hell.
I wouldn't be suicidal and make a last stand or put my life on the line. As failure would stop me from completing my own goals. If you didn't wipe me out when I was younger and dumber I will be a powerful foe.
|
I am a mix of 1 and 2. I play sandbox games and plan for what makes sense to be in what area, but try to keep most random/mundane encounters within a reasonable range of the party.
I like bandits as random encounters, and wolves. Played too much Skyrim I think. :P
And bears wanting a piece of what the players are cooking. ;-)
They do that in RL.And the classic sandwich boar*: "Intruders in my turf, charge!"
*so called as it end in the next sandwich made by the characters.
- * -
They have never made an apparition in the Pathfinder adventures I have run so far, I miss them.
Bandits, whenever I come across them they're either useless after a couple levels or you somehow have 8th level thieves sleeping in the woods like hobos and mugging farmers.
How do you keep bandits relevant as encounters while maintaining a sense of realism for the region they're in? ...
This is an issue with the whole PF system and all its prior incarnations. After a few levels you can take on tigers with your bare hands. Could the average bandit (or cop) do that? No.
Most of the common 'normal' opposition is irrelevant after a few levels.We just got done with a campaign that got up to level 15+ by the end. Some of the later story stuff was trying to keep the locals, authorities, secret society, guard, and other notables from getting angry with us.
It was getting really hard to care about any of that (well except for the paladin). Even if all those groups had managed to cooperate and gang up on us all at once, they probably couldn't have taken us. Certainly not without their town being destroyed. And there was no chance we couldn't get away any time we wanted.
Yes, we were good aligned. But the town was not, it was neutral at best. Most of us were chaotic good. We had no intention of staying their long term. There were thoroughly vile targets in the town that we were there to put down.
If we were really playing in-character, we would have just ignored all that city stuff and gone straight after the bad guys. But that wasn't the way the AP was set up.
So to not kill the campaign, we had to metagame and do some things that that really made little sense in-character. We are obviously supposed to be concerned about this so we will play along so the campaign isn't wrecked.
|
|
Bandits, whenever I come across them they're either useless after a couple levels or you somehow have 8th level thieves sleeping in the woods like hobos and mugging farmers.
How do you keep bandits relevant as encounters while maintaining a sense of realism for the region they're in? ...This is an issue with the whole PF system and all its prior incarnations. After a few levels you can take on tigers with your bare hands. Could the average bandit (or cop) do that? No.
Most of the common 'normal' opposition is irrelevant after a few levels.We just got done with a campaign that got up to level 15+ by the end. Some of the later story stuff was trying to keep the locals, authorities, secret society, guard, and other notables from getting angry with us.
It was getting really hard to care about any of that (well except for the paladin). Even if all those groups had managed to cooperate and gang up on us all at once, they probably couldn't have taken us. Certainly not without their town being destroyed. And there was no chance we couldn't get away any time we wanted.
Yes, we were good aligned. But the town was not, it was neutral at best. Most of us were chaotic good. We had no intention of staying their long term. There were thoroughly vile targets in the town that we were there to put down.
If we were really playing in-character, we would have just ignored all that city stuff and gone straight after the bad guys. But that wasn't the way the AP was set up.
So to not kill the campaign, we had to metagame and do some things that that really made little sense in-character. We are obviously supposed to be concerned about this so we will play along so the campaign isn't wrecked.
Your characters would really like to live as foreign troops at Mombasa or in Afghanistan?
It the city really hate you you can't go to a tavern to drink something, you have no one willing to sell you food, do your laundry or even speak with you.The characters can destroy the town, but if they have to live in it making every citizen hate you isn't a good move.
...
Your characters would really like to live as foreign troops at Mombasa or in Afghanistan?
It the city really hate you you can't go to a tavern to drink something, you have no one willing to sell you food, do your laundry or even speak with you.
The characters can destroy the town, but if they have to live in it making every citizen hate you isn't a good move.
We were not living in it. The city didn't really have anything we wanted. And apparently almost no one in the town other than the bad guys were there to kill were the only ones that could realistically oppose us if needed. We were really crunched for time. The bad guys were setting up ops in 2 different places at the same time and neither could be allowed to succeed. So the entire goal was to spend as little time as possible in the town, do the job, and get out.
About 90% of the NPC's (even down to commoners) encountered in the campaign had been thoroughly unpleasant people. Any authorities have been even worse. Xenophobic, misogynistic, accusatory, whiney, entitled, demanding, etc... The nation is mostly somewhere between LN and NE. Even the guy playing the paladin (and yes, he likes playing a paladin to the hilt) doesn't like helping these guys.
As an example: Folks we saved from enslavement and devoured by monsters tried to get us arrested for breaking the peace. The authorities that hired us to free them tried to cooperate with the effort to arrest us because we hadn't purchased a permit to go around armed.
The few decent characters we encountered we invariably helped leave and set-up somewhere else of their choosing.
Once we in-character found out about the bad guys ultimate plan. We could sorta in-game justify saving these people because if the bad guys succeeded they would take over and become a threat to surrounding countries. But we still had to meta-game pretty hard to pretend to care what these people thought about us.
Before we in-character discovered their plan it was even harder. We really had no reason not to just leave and let these guys stew in their own prejudices.
I've been told the GM overplayed the write-up. There is supposed to be some of that, but not to the extent he played it. Haven't read it myself, so I don't really know.
|
|
They are level 15+. If they want a drink they can probably just teleport off to the the beer making capital of the world or something.Your characters would really like to live as foreign troops at Mombasa or in Afghanistan?
It the city really hate you you can't go to a tavern to drink something, you have no one willing to sell you food, do your laundry or even speak with you.
The characters can destroy the town, but if they have to live in it making every citizen hate you isn't a good move.
Whit a 3% chance of ending somewhere else. I love how people hand wave away that little factor.
Sure, they can use greater teleport and be 2 7th spell short every time they want a beer, get clean clothing and so on. And the US troop in Afghanistan can hop a plane and go to a allied state for a nookie.Still usually they don't do that and instead try to keep the local population happy.
** spoiler omitted **...
It was something from Paizo?
As you weren't interested in staying in the town more than a few hours the comment about trying to make nice with the population is less important.
On the other side, the population being from LN to NE don't necessarily make them disagreeable.
I would probably find more disagreeable a fanatical LG follower of Erastil that want to keep women in their place, don't care about the big towns with more than 100 persons in them and think that anyone coming from such a large city is debauched than a LE individual with a larger world view.
...
It was something from Paizo?
As you weren't interested in staying in the town more than a few hours the comment about trying to make nice with the population is less important.
On the other side, the population being from LN to NE don't necessarily make them disagreeable.
I would probably find more disagreeable a fanatical LG follower of Erastil that want to keep women in their place, don't care about the big towns with more than 100 persons in them and think that anyone coming from such a large city is debauched than a LE individual with a larger world view.
Carrion Crown AP
No the alignment does not make them disagreeable. But we didn't even have the excuse of we are saving good people. Because they weren't.
Small starting village to large cities were very similar.
NO ONE had a 'larger world view'
But it bypasses the point.
The point was, that at that fairly high level, the views of anyone encountered other than the bad guys were really inconsequential unless we chose to be concerned about it. Our 5 guys would simply not be threatened and barely even inconvenienced by the entire city in opposition. If the entire city had mobilized against us, we would barely have noticed. Trying to make nice with them actually slowed us down a lot (to the point of almost mission fail).
We did the investigation, favor trading, and lousy ally cajoling because that is what the AP expected and the GM gets disappointed when you skip all the RP stuff.
It would have been substantially easier and quicker (as well as far less annoying) to just do our own scrying and divinations from outside of town, then fly in to the evil lair, and hammer it flat. Would have taken a couple of days rather than a couple of weeks, probably would have achieved surprise (rather than being warned by agents in the government), the one bad guy probably wouldn't have gotten away.
I think it depends on what you mean by bandit. Sometimes that is a term thrown about for a small army or militia operating within another country that the government can't stamp out. Oh its just bandits. But those bandits have a growing infrastructure and organization that is a subversive movement. The crew of 5 to 10 highwaymen might be the grunts but moving through the country side from stronghold to stronghold is the bandit leader. Such a leader might have an intel network and learn that that 4 people are travelling down the east road with enough magic gear (hordes of money and power) to fill a dragon hoard. He sends his best fighters or goes himself.
They are level 15+. If they want a drink they can probably just teleport off to the the beer making capital of the world or something.Your characters would really like to live as foreign troops at Mombasa or in Afghanistan?
It the city really hate you you can't go to a tavern to drink something, you have no one willing to sell you food, do your laundry or even speak with you.
The characters can destroy the town, but if they have to live in it making every citizen hate you isn't a good move.
At 15 level characters should be hanging around Goku and the rest of the Dragon Ball z crowd, not worrying about Bandits.
|
|
Troops are a fantastic idea for keeping mobs of low level warriors and such relevant.
As for plot reasons to justify bandit gangs that are dangerous enough to challenge PCs of Xth level... Letters of Marque don't have to be restricted to sea-based banditry. Some villain in the next town/duchy/kingdom over might be profiting by fomenting unrest in the land the PCs are adventuring in. If a high priest/duke/you-name-it is behind the banditry, then he could also be outfitting them with what we might today call "military advisors". These could come in the form of healers or battle wizards as well as martial officers to direct and train said bandits.
At higher levels, I'd say that bandits become either more like adventurers, or warlords. Unless they are powerful monster races, they've racked up quite a number of levels in experience. More experienced bandits are bolder bandits.
More likely, these are individual bandits who keep surviving their comrades in raids. They become de facto leaders, bandit lords and, if they avoid getting slain by adventurers or the local guard, legends. Bandits are lazy or cowardly by nature, usually, but greater skill at arms means a wider number of targets. Successful high-level bandits eventually find each other--they can't count on regular thugs to survive long enough to bother with--and form short alliances to raid high-priority targets, because they're just that good now. So we have small teams of high-level characters, embarking on dangerous missions because the payout is good and they believe they have the skills to waive the danger. Instead of an army of thugs, the party has to confront what amounts to a super villain team of personalities and high tactics. So... a typical not-so-good adventuring band.
A more successful bandit band, with less of an every-man-for-himself attitude, is much more dangerous to the country they develop in--so coincidentally, less likely to reach higher levels as they get the notice of adventurers. Assuming they survive, and build in strength, eventually the bandits will overpower the local military in every encounter. New recruits will flock to their banner, and veterans will form an elite core within the organization. Without any ability to fight back, the existing government will either become a figurehead to the wishes of the bandit leaders, or collapse into anarchy. Power breeds ambition, so the bandit army will spread. Most invading bandits will die, but those with skill and luck will become forerunners to expansion, alongside the original, now mid-level leaders.
The bandits might transform into a military dictatorship, but it's more likely they will begin splitting into factions, each with the same philosophy that made the original so dangerous. If the trend kept up so that the leaders and veteran bandits were in the upper echelons of levels, they will have amassed such armies and personal strength as to have slaughtered angels, pilfered demiplanes, and melted down ancient monuments for their gold. They've probably gained the attention--and backing--of any number of cults and outsiders. A continental empire may be reduced to a lawless land of nomadic warlords. Their greed and ambition threaten to plunge the world into the Dark Ages.
So you know, good times.
Kyreem, I've GMed Carrion Crown all the way through, and I'm stumped as to where the hell your party even is in the AP. At L15 you should be approaching the end, and what you've described sounds nothing like it.
Edit: Hell, my players had a serious debate as to whether they were going to torch the town. In the end they decided not to, but a couple people really pushed for it.
If you're not in (Spoilered), then what you're describing has very little to do with the AP and a great deal to do with your GM actively screwing with you.
Seriously, trying to arrest you for saving people without a weapons permit is entirely your GM's doing. There's NOTHING like that in the AP.
To discuss the topic at hand - a high level "bandit" group would probably be a powerful warband or cult that's killing time with some casual war crimes between jobs/missions.
The high level bandit gang isn't waiting in the forest to ambush passing merchants.
The high level bandit gang openly assaults and sacks towns, and might even take on military targets.
After all, they have yet to encounter someone who could stop them...
|
|
** spoiler omitted **
But it bypasses the point.
The point was, that at that fairly high level, the views of anyone encountered other than the bad guys were really inconsequential unless we chose to be concerned about it. Our 5 guys would simply not be threatened and barely even inconvenienced by the entire city in opposition. If the entire city had mobilized against us, we would barely have noticed. Trying to make nice with them actually slowed us down a lot (to the point of almost mission fail).
We did the investigation, favor trading, and lousy ally cajoling because that is what the AP expected and the GM gets disappointed when you skip all the RP stuff.
It would have been substantially easier and quicker (as well as far less annoying) to just do our own scrying and divinations from outside of town, then fly in to the evil lair, and hammer it flat. Would have taken a couple of days rather than a couple of weeks, probably would have achieved surprise (rather than being warned by agents in the government), the one bad guy probably wouldn't have gotten away.
Kyreem, I've GMed Carrion Crown all the way through, and I'm stumped as to where the hell your party even is in the AP. At L15 you should be approaching the end, and what you've described sounds nothing like it.
...
If you're not in (Spoilered), then what you're describing has very little to do with the AP and a great deal to do with your GM actively screwing with you.Seriously, trying to arrest you for saving people without a weapons permit is entirely your GM's doing. There's NOTHING like that in the AP. ...
The thing with trying to arrest us was much earlier. I don't remember exactly when in the AP it took us well over a year to get through the AP.
He's not the type to try and screw with people in a mean way. If anything he is usually too nice as a GM. We often are not challenged enough cause he doesn't want to risk killing a PC.
I am told there is some text in the AP that tells the GM to portray the people as zenophobic, unpleasant, and distrustful. Apparently it has been fairly common for some GM's to go way overboard on this.
.
.
...
** spoiler omitted **
Not trying to be mean or anything. Just an honest error.