No problem with the thread derail. We are still talking about the crossbow so it is all good. I wish I could afford herolab.
From a playable point of view I think the Sohei offers alot.This thread is more about DPR then anything else. I did spend his gold on defense as well as a flying mount. I think the whole build needs to be shown so you do not end up with a PC that can 1 time a day do a bunch and then is useless. This guy is limited by his boots of haste.
That's true, preferably he would have an allied caster cast haste on him. Freeing up his boot slot and money for something else.
However, we were just trying to make comparisons between:
Weapon Master 11
Bolt Ace 11
Bolt Ace 5 / Weapon Master 6
And determine what significant differences exist between them. The build that Bigdaddyjug and myself made are as identical as can be while having different classes (and slightly different item needs).
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I may be missing the point of playing that kind of things, even though I do not like the bow, and I think crossbow should be much, much more deadly for realism sake.
That's actually a common misconception. Crossbows weren't really more deadly than a big ol' longbow. (and the longbow could be fired much more often) It's just that the longbow required all sorts of training to be good with. A pack of barely trained conscripts could use crossbows. In addition, crossbows were great for sieges since you could keep your head down while reloading.
Heck - Prussia kept a smallish force of longbows on hand until the 1800's since a longbow could shoot approx 10 shots a minute vs a musket's 3-4.
If you look at various combination of crossbows and compound bows at various conditions you will actually find that they can generate about the same amount of kinetic force being imparted through the arrow. Which means the same effective deadliness, generally speaking.
Different arrow head types can be more effective at different things, but that has almost nothing to do with crossbow versus bow but arrow/bolt design.
As Charon mentions, it was really all about training. A troop of barely trained peasants could be as deadly as a seasoned longbowmen. For one volley. Afterwhich the ability to reload more quickly came into play. However, "limitless" supplies of pesant also came into play and could be used with rotating ranks to allow crossbowmen to reload after shooting, but with the benefit or require practially no time to train.
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I may be missing the point of playing that kind of things, even though I do not like the bow, and I think crossbow should be much, much more deadly for realism sake.
That's actually a common misconception. Crossbows weren't really more deadly than a big ol' longbow. (and the longbow could be fired much more often) It's just that the longbow required all sorts of training to be good with. A pack of barely trained conscripts could use crossbows. In addition, crossbows were great for sieges since you could keep your head down while reloading.
Heck - Prussia kept a smallish force of longbows on hand until the 1800's since a longbow could shoot approx 10 shots a minute vs a musket's 3-4.
I can get behind SOME of this. Now, pray tell, how did the DEADLY, SKILLED, TALENTED, English/Scottish/Gaelic bowmen did get their asses kicked consistently by the "inferior" dastardly French Crossbowmen until the advent of mass-scales guns ?
Bows are just century-old propaganda to me
Disclaimer : I may be biased, I am actually French
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I can get behind SOME of this. Now, pray tell, how did the DEADLY, SKILLED, TALENTED, English/Scottish/Gaelic bowmen did get their asses kicked consistently by the "inferior" dastardly French Crossbowmen until the advent of mass-scales guns ?
Bows are just century-old propaganda to me
Disclaimer : I may be biased, I am actually French
I think the battles of Crecy and Agincourt tell a slightly different story
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I think the battles of Crecy and Agincourt tell a slightly different storyI can get behind SOME of this. Now, pray tell, how did the DEADLY, SKILLED, TALENTED, English/Scottish/Gaelic bowmen did get their asses kicked consistently by the "inferior" dastardly French Crossbowmen until the advent of mass-scales guns ?
Bows are just century-old propaganda to me
Disclaimer : I may be biased, I am actually French
The English victories at both those battles had less to do with the Longbow being some sort of medieval superweapon than the fact that the English fought intelligently, and the French didn't. The crossbowmen at Crecy might have been at just a bit of a disadvantage of account of:
1) Lacking vital equipment left in the baggage train.
2) Fighting at the end of a long day of marching, while the English were rested.
3) Attacking while the sun was in their eyes.
4) Attack enemies on high ground.
5) Being attacked by their own knights because said knights wanted to get into melee, and the crossbowmen were in between them and the enemy.
All Crecy really proves is that longbows are better than crossbows when the crossbowmen are being commanded by morons, and the longbowmen have competent leadership. Which isn't really much of a surprise.
Also, bear in mind who eventually won that war.
I was mostly poking fun. I think the true answer is that neither is really obviously superior or inferior, but rather have strengths and weaknesses. And overall, the abilities of either crossbowmen or longbowmen were less important than leadership, tactics, strategy, and a multitude of other factors.
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Also, bear in mind who eventually won that war.
Which had less to do with quality of weapons than with the fact that a small country with a small population was trying to invade and occupy a much larger one.
I was mostly poking fun. I think the true answer is that neither is really obviously superior or inferior, but rather have strengths and weaknesses. And overall, the abilities of either crossbowmen or longbowmen were less important than leadership, tactics, strategy, and a multitude of other factors.
Fair enough then. I agree that crossbow vs. longbow is a case of each weapon having pros and cons. Part of the problem is that many of of the crossbow's advantages really don't translate well to D&D (and thus Pathfinder).
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I would like to thank Stereofm for illustrating the difference seen in this matter between Francophones and Anglophones.
For more fun and entertaining examples of historiography, look into the difference seen between English speaking accounts of the Battle of Waterloo in contrast to Continental Europe's perspective. Let's just say the views of the contributions of the British-Dutch and the Prussians are a tad bit different.
I would like to thank Stereofm for illustrating the difference seen in this matter between Francophones and Anglophones.
For more fun and entertaining examples of historiography, look into the difference seen between English speaking accounts of the Battle of Waterloo in contrast to Continental Europe's perspective. Let's just say the views of the contributions of the British-Dutch and the Prussians are a tad bit different.
Have to admit, the English-speaking accounts of the Hundred Years War always remind me of how people from the American South talk about the American Civil War. It's just that in case of a civil war, there's another English-speaking side to offer their version of events.
Mathius, I'd be much more interested in seeing what the character is capable of without the cheesy double wealth by level, and without the single barbarian level. Sure you can rage, and get the dex bonus. For 5 rounds a day. That damage is deceptive because of that because it is not a sustainable output. You will use that up in one combat most likely.
Also, courageous likely should not add an increased bonus unless you actually use the weapon to attack. This is up for debate with a lot of people, but rather than abusing a lot of potential factors, lets see what it can do without funky interpretations.
Flying crossbowmen take 2
S 7 D 22 C 12 I 10 W 14 C 6
Gunslinger 5(Bolt Ace)/Fighter 14(mutation master)/Barbarian 1(Urban)/
Traits: Alluring, Adopted (Carefully Hidden)
Skills: Ride, Stealth, Perception, Craft, UMDAt level 7 he grows a vestigial arm, that should solve the reloading issue. Still using the same cheesy tactic to gain most treasure at half price. Took +4 courageous blade boots to add +2 to dex. This assumes that bracers of falcon's aim will make Xbows will stack with improved crit. 140 min on the mutigen, 10 rounds of haste, 8 rounds of haste. Swift action every round to ad+5 damage is arcane strike.
DPR vs AC 40 (CR 23)= 1004.72
** spoiler omitted **
Dex 22 base +6 Headband +4 Profane +5 Level +5 Wish + 4 Rage +6 Mutagen + 2 courageous +2size = 56 (+23)
Accuracy: 20 BAB +23 Dex +2 focus +5 training (gloves) +5 Magic +2 size +1 Haste +1 competence -6 Aim -2 TWF -2 xbow =
+49/+49/+49/+49/+43/+43/+39/+39/+34Damage: 1d4+4d6 +23 dex +12 Aim +5 Training +5 Magic +4 Specialization +5 Arcane=
1d4+4d6+54(17-20/x4) Crit= +3d4+162(228 with bursts)** spoiler omitted **
I calculate your DPR slightly higher though. I get 1202.4
All hits but last
((.95)(56.5+14))+((.2)(.95)(56.5+66)(3))=136.8
Last attack
((.75)(56.5+14))+((.2)(.75)(56.5+66)(3))=108
Total of 1202.4
In case anyone is interested, I have created a web-based DPR calculator. You can find it here
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There is also the Lilitu that you are trying to persuade to give you the +4 profane bonus. Seeing that this is the a CR 17, you are asking it to do something that it is not normally to do, especially when it is a Major Demon from the Worldwound, it would be nearly impossible to make that opposed Charisma check when you have a 6 Charisma compared to her 26.
On top of that, even if you do persuade her, she can whimsically dismiss the bonus. Especiallywhen she thinks you are doing what she does not like.
I also agree that double wealth seems to lead readers. If all other builds in the DPR Olympics page had double wealth, you would see that the can possibly do the amount of damage per round that this does, possibly more, which would skew your data hypothesis.
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In case anyone is interested, I have created a web-based DPR calculator. You can find it here
Thank you. But when I clicked the link it wouldn't load. However, I quoted your post and then was able to copy & paste the link into an address bar.
I have a DPR calculator of my own that I use - but I've been looking at ways to improve the appearance and overall ease of use. Your layout is something I will probably borrow aspects of & incorporate into my own sheet if you don't mind?
What is it they say? Something about copying is the sincerest form of flattery?
I have no eye for presentation...
EDIT: Isn't Manyshot multiplied on a crit? That's part of what makes it so good? Did you mean Vital Strike?
For PFS, I created a build using the Minotaur Double Crossbow, with a Fighter/ Wild Rager Barbarian. The wild rager archtype gives the barbarian an extra attack at -2 to all attacks. By level 12 with rapid shot, I would get 5 attacks around firing 10 bolts. so if they all hit, that is 10d8 damage without any other modifiers. if you add in holy damage for an additional 2d6 per bolt that's 10d8 + 20d6 + 30 for holy and a +1 weapon enhancement. If you add in deadly aim you will add in an additional 80 damage if all the attacks hit at lvl 12. So we are now at 10d8+20d6+110 damage. We also have weapon specialization. So we add an additional +20 damage. And Weapon Training for an additional +2 per attack for an additional +20. With these additions we come to 10d8+20d6+150 damage. For point blank range we add an additional point for each successful attack to bring up the total static damage to 160.
However one must remember that not all of the attacks will hit.
But if they do, then the average damage would be approximately 260 damage.
But this would have to be against an evil outsider.
Also note its hardly likely that all attacks will hit as their are tons of negatives to the attack bonus.
@Claxon and others: I know this is in no way a viable build or even really playable at high level.
Right, but I'm really interested in seeing what a realistic build could put out in damage.
Actually it says in the description of the Minotaur Double Xcrossbow that with the xbow mastery you get to reload as a free action.
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@Claxon, some of your information is a bit off. As has already been mentioned, you cannot use many shot with a crossbow but also keep in mind that bracers of falcons aim specify that they do not stack with anything else that effects your critical threat range (like improved critical).
At the moment, I have a theorcrafted build that shoots for around 1d10+17 and once per round can make it around 1d10+30 or so, full attacks with a heavy crossbow and has feats to spare. Sadly, can't take focused shot for more damage due to it being a standard action and adding a bonus I am already getting. I have another version of the build that seems to be able to add extra dice and do extra static damage but it's not complete or refined-just a thought train spewed to a friend via text as we ran through character concepts. A crit based crossbow build would be pretty sweet, though.
In case anyone is interested, I have created a web-based DPR calculator. You can find it hereThank you. But when I clicked the link it wouldn't load. However, I quoted your post and then was able to copy & paste the link into an address bar.
I have a DPR calculator of my own that I use - but I've been looking at ways to improve the appearance and overall ease of use. Your layout is something I will probably borrow aspects of & incorporate into my own sheet if you don't mind?
What is it they say? Something about copying is the sincerest form of flattery?
I have no eye for presentation...
EDIT: Isn't Manyshot multiplied on a crit? That's part of what makes it so good? Did you mean Vital Strike?
No problem, use what you like and steal what you love! :D
I had an issue with addressing earlier today but all of the links should work now. I actually got them fixed around the time you made that post.
Well for PFS the Minotaur double xbow is legal and a separate weapon from the double xbow.
@Claxon, some of your information is a bit off. As has already been mentioned, you cannot use many shot with a crossbow but also keep in mind that bracers of falcons aim specify that they do not stack with anything else that effects your critical threat range (like improved critical).
Yes, people have already mentioned about Manyshot. I'm use to building archers, not crossbowmen. So I was building him exactly the same way, except adding in Rapid Shot. It's not so much off as I forgot that Manyshot specifies bows.
And, people wrong about the Bracers of Falcon's Aim and how it will stack. You're correct that it specifies that it doesn't work with anything that increases the critical threat range. But thankfully crossbows normally have an 19-20 crit range. Which with improved critical becomes 17-20. Bracers of Falcon's Aim increase the critical threat multiplier from 2 to 3, but does not change it's threat range which is already 19-20. Crossbow Training moves it to 4.
If I was trying to stack the critical threat range I would be claiming that the range was 12-20.
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I will take a 12-29 x4 weapon.
Gonna be a bit before I have the lower level builds up.
Is retraining available in PFS? I ask this because two fighting is not viable until level 12 and I do not have any feats there. If not then the sohei is the only way to gain extra attacks.
Is there a good way to get Ki back over the course of a day? If not it is not a good way to get extra attacks. Kinda like my rage in this build.
Yes, you can retrain in PFS. It requires Prestige Points equal to the amount of days needed to retrain. You can get a Maximum of 6 per level, but that is if you succeed in both Primary and Secondary conditions of the Scenario.
If you are thinking that of crafting in PFS, unfortunately you can not craft in PFS. All crafting feats are banned in PFS, with the exception of Craft (Alchemy) for Alchemical Weapons/Firearm Ammunition for Alchemists and Gunslingers.
Once you reach Level 12, you are considered a Seeker. Basically you are retired until you want to do the SINGLE 4-part scenario. Other than that, you can try playing the Module/Adventure Path that are beyond 12.
With the exception of the Seeker mission, missions are usually Levels 1-5, 3-7, 5-9, 7-11.
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Price +2 bonus
Aura moderate conjuration; CL 9th; Weight —
DESCRIPTIONOnly bows and crossbows can be made into endless ammunition weapons—firearms and other projectile weapons cannot. Each time an endless ammunition weapon is nocked, a single non-magical arrow or bolt is spontaneously created by the magic, so the weapon's wielder never needs to load the weapon with ammunition.
If the wielder attempts to load the weapon with other ammunition, the created arrow or bolt immediately vanishes and the wielder can load the weapon as normal. This ability does not reduce the amount of time required to load or fire the weapon. The created arrow or bolt vanishes if removed from the weapon; it persists only if fired. Unlike normal bow and crossbow ammunition, these arrows and bolts are always destroyed when fired.
You never need to load the weapon, so you dont need to "reload", unless of course you are changing amunition such as changing from regular bolts to silver or cold iron bolts.
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@Claxon, all this time I though for some reason that crossbows (particularly heavy ones) were crit 20 *3 weapons. But yes, I knew they only applied to the threat range- I just was wrong about what the threat range actually was.
After actually messing around a bit with the math I have some more concrete numbers. At the moment, with stats and gear and dips I would never take for real, I've got 1d10+24 per shot with a once per round 1d10+38. With a -5 to all attacks we have a remaining penalized attack bonus of +25 at 11th level. We don't really need to bother with hitting touch ac so much.
So the attack sequence is +25/+25/+20/+15. Haste would be great for an additional attack as well, of course but this is not using any particular buffs at the moment, though I am sure I could squeeze out a few more bonuses to hit and damage if I tried. The amusing thing is that I tossed together a rogue the other night who did most of this guys Damage in a single hit. Either way, I have always liked crossbows more than bows (in RPGs) I think they're neat and flavorful.