Dispute over a character with low int


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Pathfinder Maps Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
John-Andre wrote:
A 4 Intelligence is barely above complete mental retardation. The character is quite literally stupider than the village idiot. He might understand the difference between right and wrong, but understanding technical details is completely beyond him.

<sigh>

Not supported in RAW and definitely not fun. And last I checked, there were 3 mental stats, and the character in question had 4 INT, 12 WIS and 19 CHA.

If the player *chooses* to play a lack of technical understanding and bafflement faced with even the simple devices, fine. Nothing forces him to. He could choose to play ignorance in book learning. He could choose to play slow and difficult reading (sounding out syllables, etc).He could choose to play frequent misunderstandings of what others want him to do. He could choose to play "Hodor". He could choose to play "Rain Man". Or not.

He could choose to play it in hundreds of different ways, or not at all.

Blanket statements that a 4 INT "is just stoopid" don't really help, and don't correspond to the definition of intelligence scores in RAW. If that's how you want to rule it in your home games, fine. But there is no RAW basis to argue that it "ought" to be played that way.


On the Fantasy vs medieval vs real topic;

All we have to work with is our own framework of right and wrong and how the world works. Convenience is part of it and the part that my NonGamer friends think is the dumbest part of the hobby. I've been fortunate to play with a barehandful of DMs who were good enough that not only could they handle the game and narrative but also completely dispense with our group prejudices and preconceptions to completely immerse us in an Alien World. That's a rare talent I think.

Part of what this thread has been is that. We have different views on what Stats mean. We have different views on how they should impact the game. We bring our own preconceptions to the table and those preconceptions are different for different people. The OP's group had a different preconception of what PC Intelligence means and the DM and his group had a discussion about it, that's working as intended for a RPG.

Preconceptions about the game happen with Mechanics and role play. I like to know ahead of time if the game I join is just a combat simulation and I like to know if I'll go whole sessions riffing in character and never toss a die. Both have merits and neither is exclusive. I usually prefer a game where there is some balance, but other times I just wanna hit stuff with a sharp stick.

To Paizo specifically and their setting.
Paizo has done a magnificent job at eliminating numerous conceits of the RPG hobby that were really hurting it at some levels.
*The depiction of ethnic minorities was a major one. I play with 2 black guys, father and son. The son doesn't remember a time where the only black guy in fantasy was an elf.
*The depiction of the female form in a sensible form of dress. There's an awful lot of Under boob cleavage in my TSR modules. I personally love Red Sonja's Metal Disc Bikini but it shouldn't be a default for art submissions.
*They've added actual moral and ethical dilemmas to their setting where players can actually make a decision that matters in regards to their place in the world.
*I never saw the term MurderHoBo before this board, but it's apt for a great many games ive participated in. Paizo's printed adventures and the APs especially have done more to remove that than any of their predecessors.
* Genocide: This is more than human genocide. Once clearing an Orc tribe meant dead Orc Babies in D&D. Not so much anymore. Maybe it's Mikaze's quest for non stereotyped racial portrayals or it's from years of players doing some awful things in character and thinking "wait a minute".

There are lots of bad spots on Golarion. Nidal is nasty but Cheliax isn't a vacation destination. Katapesh is full of Slavers, who will take anyone not obviously too powerful to market. In Geb, humans are food. Sargava is full of bad juju. Galt is a mess where death is true death sometimes.
Starvation is a real threat for the general populace of all those spots. Magical Healing exists but saying it's common place is a stretch. It also costs money by the rules and the poor of Golarion are like modern India poor in some of these places.

Andoren is nice, unless you work for the Timber Consortium. Molthune is trying to destroy Nirmathas. Razmir forces religious conversion on it's neighbors. In the River Kingdoms food producers have extremely high Social Status because it's so hard to bring a crop to harvest and everyone else is hungry. In central Varisia you can be raped by Ogres. Mendev exists because Demons are invading the world. Ustalav is Ustalav. LastWall is there to prevent an Undead Wizard King from escaping and bringing the whole world into Undeath and it's neighbor is a nation teeming with Orcs who worship a war god and like to war with Lastwall.
Golarion isn't a nice place to live.


Voadam wrote:

Since this is an advice thread about an actual experience and the situation was explained on page 1 this has an answer. The DM had them roll stats and then for this player had him place the 4 in int.

As a fellow player I would not chastise him for not role playing mentally disabled enough. Since I believe the poster said it was this player's first experience with Pathfinder I'd encourage him to just try to have fun playing a sorcerer.

Thank you for staying on topic and for actually reading what I said! :D

John-Andre wrote:


A 4 Intelligence is barely above complete mental retardation. The character is quite literally stupider than the village idiot.

The village idiot has 4 int. How does that make him stupider than the village idiot? Here is a link to his stats. http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/npc-s/npc-0/villagers

Also to stay on the topic here, let me quote myself on the needed facts.

TrollingJoker wrote:

So in a session I'm part of there is a bit of trouble concerning a sorcerer with 4 int and 12 wisdom. Other players feel like the sorcerer isn't being role played correctly. For example, the entire team screwed up and was arrested except for said sorcerer because he was somewhere else at the time. He returned though just in time to see them being arrested. He used invisibility and followed them inside. Asked if he could percept keys and was told where they were by the dm.

He then grabbed them and used them to open the cells of his allies and when a guard came to see if everything was good, he hid the keys under his clothes so they couldn't be seen.

The other players argued that he isn't smart enough to know that he should save them while he says that it's a matter of wis not int.
They also said that couldn't know the keys are also invisible when hidden under his clothes but the spell description says so specifically.

What are your takes on this? Are the other players correct or are they harassing him without proper reasons?

Thanks in advance.

TrollingJoker wrote:
Let me point out that he has 19 charisma. We didn't do a point buy system but we rolled our stats. The dm didn't think it would be necessary to reroll those stats and decided that even though 4 int is bad, he would have to choose it because other stats would be more important.
TrollingJoker wrote:

To be fair, this was his first session. It's been months later now since we've started and the GM helped him with the stats. He wanted something that does magic and since one guy picked wizard and he liked the sound of using spells without preparations, he picked Sorcerer.

And this has been a small issue for some time but it never really meant much but it lately it happened a bit more and the other players thought the role playing of every character (not just him) should improve. In which case they reminded him that he should act more "dumb" using arguments like the jail break.

So they do this because everyone agreed on the fact that role playing should be improved. Though he was absent by chance at the time, he agreed when he heard about the idea aside from the int wis bit.

Also he doesn't mind playing a dumb character but he doesn't want to tip toe around because of simple things. He has no problem with for example being forgetful or being rash and not thinking things through. But when it comes to possibly being restricted because it might be above his smarts, he isn't as willing.

TrollingJoker wrote:
The DM himself said he isn't too experienced and he tends to not give a damn whatsoever. Not meaning he ignores stuff but he's just an easygoing go with the flow kind of guy. Also he's right about the part where we should be old and wise enough to solve this problem ourselves and that he shouldn't act as our babysitter. No disrespect intended towards him


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber
zagnabbit wrote:


Appraisal is hand waived away...

Handle Animal is for Rangers, that guy will handle it.

Ride/ unless you took Mounted Combat, no one uses this.

Craft/ why bother. Magic mart has it

Profession/ really you kill things and get the girl.

I could go on. But why. If it's not Perception/Intimidate/ Bluff, it better have a feat bonus.

I just feel like mentioning that a player sold a 20k item for 2k because of a horrible appraise roll in one of my games.

another time he tried to sell something worth 5K for 10, and was confused when no one would buy it.

also, the party was rather annoyed that only the guy with profession blacksmith was able to actually MAKE money in a city with a thriving slave work force. everyone else just made enough for a day's gruel. (they were OOC fine with it, but their characters hated the gruel and had a big RP session while I handled all the stuff they came to the city for)

also, the blacksmith is the party crafter and he doesn't have caster levels but has that feat that let's him qualify for making magic items.


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Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber
John-Andre wrote:
TrollingJoker wrote:
So in a session I'm part of there is a bit of trouble concerning a sorcerer with 4 int and 12 wisdom. Other players feel like the sorcerer isn't being role played correctly.

A 4 Intelligence is barely above complete mental retardation. The character is quite literally stupider than the village idiot. He might understand the difference between right and wrong, but understanding technical details is completely beyond him.

In your example, the sorceror might have correctly used his natural gifts to turn invisible, and then to follow the team in to the jail cells, sure. He might also know that things he pick up are hidden, because he has observed this in the past.

There is no way in Hades he understands what a key is.

Yes, he might have seen the guard fiddle with the keys in order to close the cell gates. This does not mean he understands how a door works. To him, a lock might very well be completely magical in its working. The player might argue that he saw the guard unlock the door, so he knows how the key works... really? Did he see EXACTLY how it worked? Does he know you have to stick it in the lock, the correct orientation, does he know you have to turn the key? And more importantly, does he REMEMBER how it worked? Intelligence is also memory, and with a 4 Iintelligence, this character cannot remember squat.

Intelligence is dealing with technology. There is more to technology than a crossbow. A belt is technology, Buttons are technology. This character probably cannot wear most magical apparel because he doesn't understand how to secure it on his person. Sure, he understands that a magic item has power that he can use. That doesn't mean he understands how to work the clasp on his cloak of protection, or how to properly wear that circlet that gives him that bonus to Charisma.

What I'd do is this.

Any time the character has to figure out how to do something, how something works, he has to roll an Intelligence...

dem animals with 1-2 int must have trouble doing anything... oh, wait.

in the last 4 pages or so we've brought up several facts that say, int 4 is not mental retardation, but more like poor education/aptitude for learning. It can be entirely fixed with a class skill bonus for related stats. A bard with int 4 has 3 skill points, and still get's a huge bonus for his knowledge checks after so many levels.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Bandw2 wrote:
Orfamay Quest wrote:
Bandw2 wrote:


people are aware that running off a cliff is going to do something bad to them. People aren't aware that using your int on 4 means you basically aren't playing and you just roll to know if your characters knows what is happening.

Well, if they're not aware, then they weren't paying attention when I audited their character sheet and explained that Int 4 was a crippling disability that would make their character probably not fun to play, and they might want to use a different stat array.

except here's the thing, he's not "not fun to play" because of the 4 int, but because of you, the GM making it not fun.

Exactly right.


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I've basically been ignoring this thread but I'm getting somewhat legitimately pissed off that this f+@&er thinks people with mental retardation don't know how DOORS AND BELTS WORK.

John-Andre, I'm going to ask you to kindly please stop posting.

The Exchange

Rynjin wrote:

I've basically been ignoring this thread but I'm getting somewhat legitimately pissed off that this f#*@er thinks people with mental retardation don't know how DOORS AND BELTS WORK.

John-Andre, I'm going to ask you to kindly please stop posting.

I agree and no where do the rules state that mental retardation is X ability score. We don't say that strength 4 is Muscular Sclerosis or dex 4 is Parkinsons or Con 4 is AIDS....

Int 4 is not mental retardation unless you decide as the player that you want to associate it with ADHD, Autism, or any number of disorders but it still wouldn't suddenly mean that you can't dress yourself without a skill check.


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Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
John-Andre wrote:
A 4 Intelligence is barely above complete mental retardation.

It could be, but it doesn't have to be. Fun thing about roleplaying. It tends to be more versatile and freeing than restrictive.

John-Andre wrote:
The character is quite literally stupider than the village idiot.

Not according to Paizo.

John-Andre wrote:
He might understand the difference between right and wrong, but understanding technical details is completely beyond him.

I agree. He likely understands that keys open doors, but not necessarily how the locking mechanism actually works, just that it does.

John-Andre wrote:
In your example, the sorceror might have correctly used his natural gifts to turn invisible, and then to follow the team in to the jail cells, sure. He might also know that things he pick up are hidden, because he has observed this in the past.

This portion of your post logically contradicts the next quoted portion.

John-Andre wrote:
Yes, he might have seen the guard fiddle with the keys in order to close the cell gates. This does not mean he understands how a door works. To him, a lock might very well be completely magical in its working. The player might argue that he saw the guard unlock the door, so he knows how the key works... really? Did he see EXACTLY how it worked? Does he know you have to stick it in the lock, the correct orientation, does he know you have to turn the key? And more importantly, does he REMEMBER how it worked? Intelligence is also memory, and with a 4 Intelligence, this character cannot remember squat.

So he knows things can be hidden because he's observed it before, but observing a key being used is not enough? Is that not a contradiction in logic? A double-standard? Seems like an inconsistent bully of a DM to me.


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I'm trying to find in the SRD where it says having a low INT score means anything other than lack of skill points and penalties on INT checks.

If it doesn't anything beyond that is a houserule.

Trying to extrapolate IQ or anything else from that number is pointless, leads to arguments and wastes time.


John-Andre wrote:
TrollingJoker wrote:
So in a session I'm part of there is a bit of trouble concerning a sorcerer with 4 int and 12 wisdom. Other players feel like the sorcerer isn't being role played correctly.

A 4 Intelligence is barely above complete mental retardation. The character is quite literally stupider than the village idiot. He might understand the difference between right and wrong, but understanding technical details is completely beyond him.

In your example, the sorceror might have correctly used his natural gifts to turn invisible, and then to follow the team in to the jail cells, sure. He might also know that things he pick up are hidden, because he has observed this in the past.

There is no way in Hades he understands what a key is.

Yes, he might have seen the guard fiddle with the keys in order to close the cell gates. This does not mean he understands how a door works. To him, a lock might very well be completely magical in its working. The player might argue that he saw the guard unlock the door, so he knows how the key works... really? Did he see EXACTLY how it worked? Does he know you have to stick it in the lock, the correct orientation, does he know you have to turn the key? And more importantly, does he REMEMBER how it worked? Intelligence is also memory, and with a 4 Iintelligence, this character cannot remember squat.

Intelligence is dealing with technology. There is more to technology than a crossbow. A belt is technology, Buttons are technology. This character probably cannot wear most magical apparel because he doesn't understand how to secure it on his person. Sure, he understands that a magic item has power that he can use. That doesn't mean he understands how to work the clasp on his cloak of protection, or how to properly wear that circlet that gives him that bonus to Charisma.

What I'd do is this.

Any time the character has to figure out how to do something, how something works, he has to roll an Intelligence...

Nope. With 4 int you can still have ranks in engineering, and most certainly can "understand technical details".


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Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
DM Under The Bridge wrote:
With 4 int you can still have ranks in engineering, and most certainly can "understand technical details".

Yep. It all depends on how the PLAYER wants to build and portray his character.

The GM has no right to bully people for decisions that he allowed. He has every right to rule against a decision during character creation due to incompatibility of setting or play style. In the latter instance, ideally he will work with the player in question to find something that works for all.

Grand Lodge

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Did someone actually bring real world politics, and social issues, such a racism, other forms of bigotry, and even religion?

Did I read something wrong?

Are we making flamebait soup?

Paizo Glitterati Robot

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Locking. We're done here.

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