Dispute over a character with low int


Advice

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Bandw2 wrote:

If you visit a town regularly, you know where it is, you don't need a DC knowledge check for it.

Assuming you've learned on your trips and remember where it is.

What stat controls learning and memory again? Oh, yeah.... intelligence.

And you don't need a DC knowledge check for it, because anyone who isn't stupider than a blade of grass can take 10.


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber

if you go there, every 2 days, you're not suddenly going to forget one day.

and no, apparently int 8, and you now have a 45% chance to remember.

Sovereign Court

Suichimo wrote:


How is he a troll?

I'd imagine he rolled, and probably had a strict DM. Also, the SRD says to allow rerolls if the total modifier is below a +1.

Nothing he did seems to required much in the way of skills though. I can't imagine noticing where the keys are would be that high of a perception check, and if they're not on a guard that should be the only check he may need to make.

It could be a small prison that really doesn't mean much. Heck, the entire situation where you have the prisoners trying to get the keys off a table/sleeping guard/etc. with whatever happens to be lying around is a pretty common one.

Troll is in the OP's handle, I was calling him by name :P

I always played with DMs that said re-roll below 8 or below 7 and I thought CRB and the old 3.X SRD also said that. May be wrong on that one...

I think he'd have needed a Stealth roll (with a +20 circumstancial due to being invisible) to follow the guard NPC without being noticed, opposed by guards Perception. By strict RAW, he'd need a Sleight of Hand to take the key from the guards, since it's an attended object. Invisibility doesn't do much for the fact he'd still make noise while following the guards, plus that he'd still be sensed while trying to steal the key. That should definitely require a roll, even if the guard is sleeping.

I guess the guard eventually goes to sleep, but at that point the PC has the problem that invisibility only lasts for minutes per caster level, and when he rolls the attack roll (CMB-based) to steal, a strict DM could say that it breaks invisibility.

(Maybe I really am D&D Hitler...)


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber

keys often aren't actual kept on peoples belts like the movies, and there are several copies. (oh god we dropped the keys into the toilet looks like all the prisoners starve...)

Sovereign Court

Even assuming there are copies, it's a Perception to find the copy successfully. And only a severely inept guard (working for a generic bond villain) would leave the key out in the open (and even if they do it's a Stealth roll to quietly open the cell door IMO).

Having been behind bars before (don't ask) I can say that prison doors are not at all quiet when they open. Neither are the keys turning in the door on an 'old' style cell.


Bandw2 wrote:
Orfamay Quest wrote:
Bandw2 wrote:


also, all of those are assuming the person is a "foreigner".
They do not. Nowhere in the skill description does the word "foreigner" appear.

k then like I said, since the average person doesn't have knowledge(geometry), no one in a town can name the closest town, or know it's direction.

DC 15 "Recognize current plane" has no idea he's on material plane since he did not train a skill point in planes.

the rules assume you just know things, if they make sense for you to know them.

I'm not sure why any given NPC doesn't have a rank Knowledge GEOGRAPHY. If that NPC travels, at all, a rank makes sense. Also the merchant, sailor/navigator, caravan driver is likely an Expert with skills in this stuff.

Recognize Current Plane is irrelevant, untill you get plane shifted involuntarily.

Yeah you are assumed to know stuff. But the assumption that you know the word "Fork" with an INT of 4 is not going to get past every DM.


taldanrebel2187 wrote:
Troll is in the OP's handle, I was calling him by name :P

Oh. :P

Quote:
I always played with DMs that said re-roll below 8 or below 7 and I thought CRB and the old 3.X SRD also said that. May be wrong on that one...

My DMs stick us with what we roll, but we also generally roll 4d6 drop the lowest. I can't find it on either SRD, but I remember the 3.5 PHB saying that.

Quote:

I think he'd have needed a Stealth roll (with a +20 circumstancial due to being invisible) to follow the guy without being noticed, opposed by guards Perception. By strict RAW, he'd need a Sleight of Hand to take the key from the guards, since it's an attended object.

I guess the guard eventually goes to sleep, but at that point he has the problem that invisibility only lasts for minutes per level, and when he rolls the attack roll (CMB-based) to steal, a strict DM could say that it breaks invisibility.

(Maybe I really am D&D Hitler...)

The classes that you usually think of as guards don't get perception and will probably have a somewhat low Wisdom. The +20 from Invisibility is probably all that he needs to succeed against the guards.

He'd only need Sleight of Hand if the key is actually on a guard. I've seen numerous tv shows and movies where a couple of guys get locked up and everyone has to gather their shoe laces and a piece of gum so they can go fishing for the keys that are sitting on the table before the guard gets back. Pirates of the Carribean was pretty bad about it, with the keys being left with a small dog.

Sovereign Court

What I would question is logistically, how does the Sorcerer follow the party, they get booked, paperwork done, locked up and then the guard goes away... all within the duration of 1 invisibility spell.

Then again we aren't getting all the details here I think (or it's buried in the thread, which I have not read all of).


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber
zagnabbit wrote:
Bandw2 wrote:
Orfamay Quest wrote:
Bandw2 wrote:


also, all of those are assuming the person is a "foreigner".
They do not. Nowhere in the skill description does the word "foreigner" appear.

k then like I said, since the average person doesn't have knowledge(geometry), no one in a town can name the closest town, or know it's direction.

DC 15 "Recognize current plane" has no idea he's on material plane since he did not train a skill point in planes.

the rules assume you just know things, if they make sense for you to know them.

I'm not sure why any given NPC doesn't have a rank Knowledge GEOGRAPHY. If that NPC travels, at all, a rank makes sense. Also the merchant, sailor/navigator, caravan driver is likely an Expert with skills in this stuff.

Recognize Current Plane is irrelevant, untill you get plane shifted involuntarily.

Yeah you are assumed to know stuff. But the assumption that you know the word "Fork" with an INT of 4 is not going to get past every DM.

still this guy thinks everything is a DC 10 knowledge check... >_>


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber
taldanrebel2187 wrote:

What I would question is logistically, how does the Sorcerer follow the party, they get booked, paperwork done, locked up and then the guard goes away... all within the duration of 1 invisibility spell.

Then again we aren't getting all the details here I think (or it's buried in the thread, which I have not read all of).

ye oldern times didn't have Habeus Corpus or other rights. people very easily got thrown in jail and just forgotten.

Sovereign Court

Sure, I'd say habeus corpus likely doesn't exist. But I'd also imagine plenty of paperwork exists in certain societies (LG). Granted it'd totally depend on town size, alignment, guard competence and so forth. Even then, I'm not sure they'd be left alone so quickly.

Usually law enforcers would at least do some basic interrogation of the party or have a watchman. Granted again it'd totally depend on the specifics of this town. I'm just advocating an "It shouldn't be easy to break out of jail" approach. Totally depends on the story specifics and DMing style. I'd run it Hitler-style, myself.


Actually, a 10 Int has a 55% chance of knowing, not 50. there are 20 sides, 10 or better means 11 sides, not 10. an 8 int has a 50% chance because 11 is the real 50% mark on the d20, not 10. there are 20 sides and the previous arguments got their math wrong

a 4-5 int has a -3 modifier or 40% chance of knowing DC 10 answers on immediate offhand memory after penalties. without skill ranks. and knowledge checks can be retried as an action which is classified as "let me think a bit"

somebody with a 40% chance of knowing the correct answer immediately without wasting move actions to retry or "think" is not that handicapped at all

hell, even though they can't speak without spending a skill point, a wolf has a 35% chance of knowing DC 10 human answers.

but stuff like "how do i use a fork?" "what is the name of my home town?" "where is the nearest town to the east of my hometown?" "what is the name of my home town's lord?" or "where is the best tavern in my home town?" are DC5, maybe DC0. knowing the name of the current current ruler of your home nation should also be DC 5 at hardest

what counts as DC10 knowledge is, "what is the name of that shire in the forest 3 towns over?" and stuff like that

Sovereign Court

For the sake of devil's advocacy, I will point out the the PC can take a 10 on a knowledge check. At least by RAW. In a home game I would totally not allow it on a 4INT murderhobo character (:


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber

FINALLY someone else that gets it. T_T


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber
taldanrebel2187 wrote:
For the sake of devil's advocacy, I will point out the the PC can take a 10 on a knowledge check. At least by RAW. In a home game I would totally not allow it on a 4INT murderhobo character (:

why does he have to be murderhobo? >_>

seriously I could be the face man as a bard with 3 skill points...


taldanrebel2187 wrote:
For the sake of devil's advocacy, I will point out the the PC can take a 10 on a knowledge check. At least by RAW. In a home game I would totally not allow it on a 4INT murderhobo character (:

He would only get a 7 though...

Sovereign Court

It depends whether he min-max'd his INT to a 4, is evil and how much meta-gaming went into this. It's been my experience that characters with 19 CHA and 4 INT are usually the product of enterprising min-maxing. Or just really, really bad luck. (like losing the genetic lottery, in Golarion... I guess)

Also, I must take this time to advocate for my home campaign, where a eugenics-obsessed, charismatic young Paladin calling himself "the Saviour" has taken Absalom and is culling the monstrous races in favor of extending humanity's dominion over allegedly lesser species. Humans under 6 INT are treated as an anathema to society, and essentially forced into conditions slightly better than slave labor. The final solution, etc.


taldanrebel2187 wrote:
For the sake of devil's advocacy, I will point out the the PC can take a 10 on a knowledge check. At least by RAW. In a home game I would totally not allow it on a 4INT murderhobo character (:

if a PC with 4 intelligence can't perform actions of basic complexity such as the prison break scenario in the OP, then a wizard who dumps strength better be in a wheel chair

most murder hobos dump charisma, unless they outright depend on charisma for a powerful scaling supernatural class feature, and the only way to get a 4 int is to roll or use house rules

so potentially, we had a DM who forced rolling of attributes and the sorcerer ended up with a 4 intelligence because the dice saddled him with it. but yeah, dumping is dumping, it's just dice force extra dump stats you may not desire

it would be better to use point buy, where the lowest a character can have after a racial penalty is 5, unless they are a special case like a 3 charisma duergar.


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber
taldanrebel2187 wrote:

It depends whether he min-max'd his INT to a 4, is evil and how much meta-gaming went into this. It's been my experience that characters with 19 CHA and 4 INT are usually the product of enterprising min-maxing. Or just really, really bad luck. (like losing the genetic lottery, in Golarion... I guess)

Also, I must take this time to advocate for my home campaign, where a eugenics-obsessed, charismatic young Paladin calling himself "the Saviour" has taken Absalom and is culling the monstrous races in favor of extending humanity's dominion over allegedly lesser species. Humans under 6 INT are treated as an anathema to society, and essentially forced into conditions slightly better than slave labor. The final solution, etc.

that... seems perfectly Lawful, not good, but lawful I guess. :P

Grand Lodge

taldanrebel2187 wrote:
By the way, he should *not* get any skill ranks beyond 1 per level, RAW. Might want to audit the character if you really are the DM of this group.

He can get up to two skill points per level, or three if he's human, actually.

One skill per level base, plus favored class bonus, plus human bonus.


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber
Jeff Merola wrote:
taldanrebel2187 wrote:
By the way, he should *not* get any skill ranks beyond 1 per level, RAW. Might want to audit the character if you really are the DM of this group.

He can get up to two skill points per level, or three if he's human, actually.

One skill per level base, plus favored class bonus, plus human bonus.

humans are the best

Sovereign Court

It's all for the good of humanity to "help" the weak by offering them life-time employment. By keeping them in lowly positions he is guarding them from the harsh, unforgiving outside world. Guarding all of humanity by leading armies to slaughter the kobolds, crush Geb (slaughtering all undead with no chance at redemption), close the world-wound, kill all tieflings (read: genocide) and force the elves back into their forest territories and underground land on the premise of superior numbers. He's the voice of humanity. Just ask him.


No, what I think Orfamay Quest is pointing out is how skill checks can actually be applied.

Most Skill Checks get hand waived in game for expediency. As a result no one takes Appraise ranks anymore.
Basically the DM says; "you find a jade bracelet"
Player says "what's it worth?"
DM says "250 gp"

Same is done for knowledge checks that everybody at the table knows. If your game is set in Varisia, it's hand waived that the players know what the nearest city is, since the last campaign was in Varisia.
Also there is a poster map of Varisia behind the DM's head on the wall.

Now. When there is a PC with an INT score of 4; suddenly knowledge checks are the balance factor.

Just like that PC with a STR score of 4 had better know the exact weight of every item on his person at all times. Since his clothes and a dagger are the limit of a light load.

It's fair to say the DM is being Douchey making you roll to remember your father's first name but it's not when he makes you roll to remember the name of someone you just had a conversation with yesterday.

Skill checks and ability checks are basic and intrinsic to the math underlying the game. The "take 10" rule is in place to help you not fail routine tasks when there is no pressure to complete it. The definition of "pressure" is entirely up to the DM though; and it's not too far out there that they rule any kind of Grey Matter use is a stressful situation for a PC with a 4 INT.

An intelligence of 4 is dumb, as in no memory retention.

If the game is played STRICTLY by rules the skill checks and ability checks would be far more common place than they are.


taldanrebel2187 wrote:

It depends whether he min-max'd his INT to a 4, is evil and how much meta-gaming went into this. It's been my experience that characters with 19 CHA and 4 INT are usually the product of enterprising min-maxing. Or just really, really bad luck. (like losing the genetic lottery, in Golarion... I guess)

Also, I must take this time to advocate for my home campaign, where a eugenics-obsessed, charismatic young Paladin calling himself "the Saviour" has taken Absalom and is culling the monstrous races in favor of extending humanity's dominion over allegedly lesser species. Humans under 6 INT are treated as an anathema to society, and essentially forced into conditions slightly better than slave labor. The final solution, etc.

there is no way you can minmax the point buy chart to get an intelligence of 4, even with racial penalties, it is clearly bad luck. and minmaxing isn't evil at all, minmaxing is annoying, and often demands arbritrary rules to punish it, but what i would do, is allow the sorcerer to bump his intelligence up from 4 to 10 if it where a bad roll and not point buy.


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber
taldanrebel2187 wrote:
It's all for the good of humanity to "help" the weak by offering them life-time employment. By keeping them in lowly positions he is guarding them from the harsh, unforgiving outside world. Guarding all of humanity by leading armies to slaughter the kobolds, crush Geb (slaughtering all undead with no chance at redemption), close the world-wound, kill all tieflings (read: genocide) and force the elves back into their forest territories and underground land on the premise of superior numbers. He's the voice of humanity. Just ask him.

doesn't matter good is "life in general must be helped" so diminishing other "lesser" beings is an Evil action in pathfinder based universes.

Sovereign Court

Jeff Merola wrote:
taldanrebel2187 wrote:
By the way, he should *not* get any skill ranks beyond 1 per level, RAW. Might want to audit the character if you really are the DM of this group.

He can get up to two skill points per level, or three if he's human, actually.

One skill per level base, plus favored class bonus, plus human bonus.

My understanding of Skilled and FCB is that they'd modify the X+INT per level, rather than be applied afterwards. I wonder how that actually works?

Grand Lodge

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taldanrebel2187 wrote:
Jeff Merola wrote:
taldanrebel2187 wrote:
By the way, he should *not* get any skill ranks beyond 1 per level, RAW. Might want to audit the character if you really are the DM of this group.

He can get up to two skill points per level, or three if he's human, actually.

One skill per level base, plus favored class bonus, plus human bonus.

My understanding of Skilled and FCB is that they'd modify the X+INT per level, rather than be applied afterwards. I wonder how that actually works?

They apply after. The formula is Max(X+Int, 1) + Bonuses, not Max(X+Int+Bonuses, 1).


zagnabbit wrote:

No, what I think Orfamay Quest is pointing out is how skill checks can actually be applied.

Most Skill Checks get hand waived in game for expediency. As a result no one takes Appraise ranks anymore.
Basically the DM says; "you find a jade bracelet"
Player says "what's it worth?"
DM says "250 gp"

Same is done for knowledge checks that everybody at the table knows. If your game is set in Varisia, it's hand waived that the players know what the nearest city is, since the last campaign was in Varisia.
Also there is a poster map of Varisia behind the DM's head on the wall.

Now. When there is a PC with an INT score of 4; suddenly knowledge checks are the balance factor.

Just like that PC with a STR score of 4 had better know the exact weight of every item on his person at all times. Since his clothes and a dagger are the limit of a light load.

It's fair to say the DM is being Douchey making you roll to remember your father's first name but it's not when he makes you roll to remember the name of someone you just had a conversation with yesterday.

Skill checks and ability checks are basic and intrinsic to the math underlying the game. The "take 10" rule is in place to help you not fail routine tasks when there is no pressure to complete it. The definition of "pressure" is entirely up to the DM though; and it's not too far out there that they rule any kind of Grey Matter use is a stressful situation for a PC with a 4 INT.

An intelligence of 4 is dumb, as in no memory retention.

If the game is played STRICTLY by rules the skill checks and ability checks would be far more common place than they are.

how are you dumb when you have a 40% chance to recall a feature you learned in the local school house during your childhood on the spot in an immediate fashion?

Sovereign Court

Bandw2 wrote:


doesn't matter good is "life in general must be helped" so diminishing other "lesser" beings is an Evil action in pathfinder based universes.

Way I've always read Alignment in SRD is that the alignment is humanoid-centric. Kobolds or evil dragons, intelligent undead, etc. don't have rights, they're monsters plain and simple. Slaughtering a room full of evil dragons with suffocation or even torturing an evil intelligent undead is not really evil. As they are not "innocent" life as stipulated by the SRD. They are monsters in the truest sense, and most humans will either flee from them or attempt to kill them on sight (adventurers).

Outsiders are often treated accordingly, and inherently inequal members of society treated with mistrust in most corners of the world. It's also a low-magic setting, so I'm running it in that vain. It's a home-game though, not at all society inspired.


Orfamay Quest wrote:


But a person with an intelligence of 10 doesn't need to roll at all, because the person of intelligence 10 is smart enough to be assumed to have access to all of "common knowledge," something that a person of intelligence 4 is not.

One of the known weaknesses of a d20 based system is that there is too high a chance of failure on routine tasks. This is addressed by by the take 10 mechanic, which says that there is NO chance of failure on routine tasks, unless you are so poor at the relevant task that it's no longer routine.

So, basically, knowing the name of the local priest is routine for a person of normal intelligence. But for the village idiot, that's not at all routine.

By that logic, a person with an INT of 10 is half again as smart as a person with an INT of 9 because the latter cannot take a 10 to make a DC 10 INT check - meaning his chances of making the check drop from "100%" to 45%. This all despite the fact that the person's INT barely changed at all.

Like I said, you can't consider Take 10 mechanics because they're really a "Meta" mechanic that exists solely to make the game easier on the player - not as a consequence of some roleplaying element being simulated by the rules.


zagnabbit wrote:
No, what I think Orfamay Quest is pointing out is how skill checks can actually be applied.

And pointing out the absurdity of relying on strict rules-as-written as a justification for there being no significant drawbacks to a dumped intelligence.

By strict rules-as-written, there is no category easier than "very easy" for knowledge checks, and hence there is no DC lower than 10. To repeat myself in another way, there is no such thing as a DC 5 knowledge check under strict RAW. Any question -- "what is your name?" "what is your quest?" "what is your favorite color?" -- requires at least a DC 10 knowledge check to answer. (Yes, the game master can put a circumstance bonus on the roll, but that doesn't, under strict RAW, adjust the DC.)

Quote:


Most Skill Checks get hand waived in game for expediency. As a result no one takes Appraise ranks anymore.
Basically the DM says; "you find a jade bracelet"
Player says "what's it worth?"
DM says "250 gp"

Same is done for knowledge checks that everybody at the table knows. If your game is set in Varisia, it's hand waived that the players know what the nearest city is, since the last campaign was in Varisia.
Also there is a poster map of Varisia behind the DM's head on the wall.

Now. When there is a PC with an INT score of 4; suddenly knowledge checks are the balance factor.

Exactly.

Quote:


Skill checks and ability checks are basic and intrinsic to the math underlying the game. The "take 10" rule is in place to help you not fail routine tasks when there is no pressure to complete it. The definition of "pressure" is entirely up to the DM though; and it's not too far out there that they rule any kind of Grey Matter use is a stressful situation for a PC with a 4 INT.

An intelligence of 4 is dumb, as in no memory retention.

If the game is played STRICTLY by rules the skill checks and ability checks would be far more common place than they are.

Yup. A GM is completely within his rights to demand of any character who dumped a stat that that character make a roll for an otherwise "routine" task that any normal person could make without trying. Trying to remember where you parked your car? Trying to open a jar of pickles? Trying to carry a plate of food without dropping it? All of these are simple checks that should be trivial but that are not trivial with bad stats.

There are rules to suggest how much a Strength 4 character can lift over his head, but not how much he can bench press, or how easily he can open a jar. The GM makes rulings on the fly about those. He is not only allowed to, but he is required to. But similarly, there are rules about Knowledge skills and "very easy" questions. If the GM is making a house rule that remembering-what-a-cow-is does not require a roll, then that is basically the same as telling the wizard to ignore encumbrance rules, because dumped stats don't matter.


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Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber
zagnabbit wrote:

No, what I think Orfamay Quest is pointing out is how skill checks can actually be applied.

Most Skill Checks get hand waived in game for expediency. As a result no one takes Appraise ranks anymore.
Basically the DM says; "you find a jade bracelet"
Player says "what's it worth?"
DM says "250 gp"

Same is done for knowledge checks that everybody at the table knows. If your game is set in Varisia, it's hand waived that the players know what the nearest city is, since the last campaign was in Varisia.
Also there is a poster map of Varisia behind the DM's head on the wall.

Now. When there is a PC with an INT score of 4; suddenly knowledge checks are the balance factor.

Just like that PC with a STR score of 4 had better know the exact weight of every item on his person at all times. Since his clothes and a dagger are the limit of a light load.

It's fair to say the DM is being Douchey making you roll to remember your father's first name but it's not when he makes you roll to remember the name of someone you just had a conversation with yesterday.

Skill checks and ability checks are basic and intrinsic to the math underlying the game. The "take 10" rule is in place to help you not fail routine tasks when there is no pressure to complete it. The definition of "pressure" is entirely up to the DM though; and it's not too far out there that they rule any kind of Grey Matter use is a stressful situation for a PC with a 4 INT.

An intelligence of 4 is dumb, as in no memory retention.

If the game is played STRICTLY by rules the skill checks and ability checks would be far more common place than they are.

not really since all the knowledge checks are written as if you are an outsider. knowing the closest town of someplace you've never been too, or have just arrived, is DC 20, but if you have lived in the area and travel then you honestly KNOW.

almost all the listed knowledge checks have an effect, either in letting you not get lost or not, or what ever. but remember simple everyday things is not governed by the knowledge skill.

Knowledge skills DO NOT affect your characters ability to remember someones name, why? because that's not their jurisdiction, no skill covers that. that is up to the player to remember.

also, I GM on the internet, so I use digital character sheets which keep track of carrying capacity and equipment weight for me. I also make people roll appraise whenever they want to know how much something is worth. If I want to give the players 8k in loot, then it's in coins.

no knowledge skill though covers personal memory. You simply do not have to roll for things you actually remember from in-game.

INT DOES NOT COVER PERSONAL MEMORY IT IS YOUR ABILITY TO RETAIN ACADEMIC USE OF KNOWLEDGE, IT APPLIES TO NOTHING ELSE (this does include wizardry, crafting and appraising)


CommandoDude wrote:
Orfamay Quest wrote:


But a person with an intelligence of 10 doesn't need to roll at all, because the person of intelligence 10 is smart enough to be assumed to have access to all of "common knowledge," something that a person of intelligence 4 is not.

One of the known weaknesses of a d20 based system is that there is too high a chance of failure on routine tasks. This is addressed by by the take 10 mechanic, which says that there is NO chance of failure on routine tasks, unless you are so poor at the relevant task that it's no longer routine.

So, basically, knowing the name of the local priest is routine for a person of normal intelligence. But for the village idiot, that's not at all routine.

By that logic, a person with an INT of 10 is half again as smart as a person with an INT of 9 because the latter cannot take a 10 to make a DC 10 INT check - meaning his chances of making the check drop from "100%" to 45%. This all despite the fact that the person's INT barely changed at all.

Like I said, you can't consider Take 10 mechanics because they're really a "Meta" mechanic that exists solely to make the game easier on the player - not as a consequence of some roleplaying element being simulated by the rules.

you mean 50%, but you are right they can't take 10, there are 20 sides on a d20. being able to succeed on a 10 or better is a 55% chance, not a 50% chance, the 11 or better is the 50%.

you need a 55% chance to be able to take 10, so it drops from 100% to 50%. on 20 sides, 11 is the 50% mark. 10 might be half of 20, but it ends the first half, doesn't start the second. succeeding on a 10 or better out of 20 sides is being able to succeed on 11 sides, or 55%

Sovereign Court

How I see Intelligence, and a good reference table...

1-2: Animals, as per SRD
3: Special Needs
4-5: Some learning disability
6-9: The guys that beat us up in high school for playing D&D
10-11: Pretty much everyone else
12-15: Stereotypical HS responsible kid
16-17: Borderline genius, probably has a fedora. Holier-than-though *nix nerds
18-19: Entry-Level Mensa, probably one of the people who are really good at something in school
20+: Wizards seeking lichdom. Outsiders. Evil dragons.


Auren "Rin" Cloudstrider wrote:
zagnabbit wrote:

No, what I think Orfamay Quest is pointing out is how skill checks can actually be applied.

Most Skill Checks get hand waived in game for expediency. As a result no one takes Appraise ranks anymore.
Basically the DM says; "you find a jade bracelet"
Player says "what's it worth?"
DM says "250 gp"

Same is done for knowledge checks that everybody at the table knows. If your game is set in Varisia, it's hand waived that the players know what the nearest city is, since the last campaign was in Varisia.
Also there is a poster map of Varisia behind the DM's head on the wall.

Now. When there is a PC with an INT score of 4; suddenly knowledge checks are the balance factor.

Just like that PC with a STR score of 4 had better know the exact weight of every item on his person at all times. Since his clothes and a dagger are the limit of a light load.

It's fair to say the DM is being Douchey making you roll to remember your father's first name but it's not when he makes you roll to remember the name of someone you just had a conversation with yesterday.

Skill checks and ability checks are basic and intrinsic to the math underlying the game. The "take 10" rule is in place to help you not fail routine tasks when there is no pressure to complete it. The definition of "pressure" is entirely up to the DM though; and it's not too far out there that they rule any kind of Grey Matter use is a stressful situation for a PC with a 4 INT.

An intelligence of 4 is dumb, as in no memory retention.

If the game is played STRICTLY by rules the skill checks and ability checks would be far more common place than they are.

how are you dumb when you have a 40% chance to recall a feature you learned in the local school house during your childhood on the spot in an immediate fashion?

That 40% chance to remember that Tuesday follows Monday is still dumb.

The DM controls that check, whether it gets rolled or not.

"Take 10" is completely in the wheelhouse of DM permission.

The DM can force a knowledge chck at any time.


intelligence is purely academic. it doesn't apply to the practical use you gained from growing up in the area you live in, even the dumbest peasant who grew up in the local shire knows who his sheriff is, because he has been living there the whole time and has likely interacted with the sheriff on countless occasions.


zagnabbit wrote:

That 40% chance to remember that Tuesday follows Monday is still dumb.

The DM controls that check, whether it gets rolled or not.

"Take 10" is completely in the wheelhouse of DM permission.

The DM can force a knowledge chck at any time

knowing Tuesday follows Monday is so mundane it is DC 5 at highest, i would consider it DC 0. still an 100% chance on taking 10, even for a 1 int guy. this is beyond easy, DC 10 would be closer to knowing the answers to algebra II or geometry problems you learned in high school

knowing tuesday follows monday is like DC 5. at harderest, more like DC0.


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber
Orfamay Quest wrote:


By strict rules-as-written, there is no category easier than "very easy" for knowledge checks, and hence there is no DC lower than 10. To repeat myself in another way, there is no such thing as a DC 5 knowledge check under strict RAW. Any question -- "what is your name?" "what is your quest?" "what is your favorite color?" -- requires at least a DC 10 knowledge check to answer. (Yes, the game master can put a circumstance bonus on the roll, but that doesn't, under strict RAW, adjust the DC.)

there is no "very easy" or "easy" or "hard", there's just 10, 15, 20, 15 + hazard's CR, 15 + spell level, 20 + spell level, 25 + spell level, and 10 + monster's CR. These aren't "difficulties".

Knowledge wrote:


You are educated in a field of study and can answer both simple and complex questions.

NO WHERE DOES THIS SAY IT HAS TO DO WITH REMEMBERING THINGS, IT EVEN SAYS FOR FAILURE AND RETRYING: "The check represents what you know, and thinking about a topic a second time doesn’t let you know something that you never learned in the first place.". THE CHECK IS A CHECK TO SEE IF YOU EVER LEARNED ABOUT THAT THING, IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH MEMORY!

dfajhdsfajyhdfgjhkddhjgfjads*incoherent herp derp*

low int equates more to apathy than to stupidity.

Sovereign Court

In the advocacy of devils... Intelligence reflects the ability to effectively acquire knowledge, as well as specialized reasoning ability predicated upon that knowledge. I think a good example is a historian attempting to discern the writing style of a document using a Linguistics check. Or an artisan using Craft to create a set of masterwork agile half-plate made of mithral or another difficult to work material. Or avoiding having your mind fried by the Voice of God, as it speaks to you (see Contact Other Plane).

I think we confuse INT for education here in this discussion. An idiot can still be educated.


intelligence represents how quickly you pick up academic knowledge, it doesn't affect how well you remember things.


I'm not sure where "Intellignce is purely academic" comes from.

If that's a hard rule. I don't remember it in the CORE Rulebook. Not saying it's not there. My copy is at home.

This sounds interpretive. I've seen multiple GMs in multiple versions of the game come down differently on the ruling.

Sovereign Court

Alchemist archetype:
Perfect Recall

At 2nd level, a mindchemist has honed his memory. When making a Knowledge check, he may add his Intelligence bonus on the check a second time. Thus, a mindchemist with 5 ranks in Knowledge (history) and a +2 Intelligence bonus has a total skill bonus of +9 (5 + 2 + 2) using this ability. The mindchemist can also use this ability when making an Intelligence check to remember something.

I think INT is the closest ability we get to recall-ability. The "reroll" section of Knowledge sort of suggests that the reason it's INT based with no default retry roll, is that you either remember something you studied...or you don't.


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber
zagnabbit wrote:

I'm not sure where "Intellignce is purely academic" comes from.

If that's a hard rule. I don't remember it in the CORE Rulebook. Not saying it's not there. My copy is at home.

This sounds interpretive. I've seen multiple GMs in multiple versions of the game come down differently on the ruling.

it's like why don't characters roll for breathing? because there isn't a rule that you need to roll to breathe.

Intelligence literally only seems to ever effect actual hard knowledge, not how easy it is for you to remember things.

@taldanrebel2187, this is incorrect, it says that you NEVER LEARNED IT.


Auren "Rin" Cloudstrider wrote:
zagnabbit wrote:

That 40% chance to remember that Tuesday follows Monday is still dumb.

The DM controls that check, whether it gets rolled or not.

"Take 10" is completely in the wheelhouse of DM permission.

The DM can force a knowledge chck at any time

knowing Tuesday follows Monday is so mundane it is DC 5 at highest, i would consider it DC 0. still an 100% chance on taking 10, even for a 1 int guy. this is beyond easy, DC 10 would be closer to knowing the answers to algebra II or geometry problems you learned in high school

knowing tuesday follows monday is like DC 5. at harderest, more like DC0.

The DCs start at 10.

A DC of 0 is a gimme.

Just like every other hand waived skill check in the game.

I played a game years ago, ROLEMASTER maybe, where you could actually die trying to cross a city street and failing an ability check. The hand waiving of rules isn't a bad thing but it's also completely legit to require actual rolls.


zagnabbit wrote:


The DCs start at 10.
A DC of 0 is a gimme.

Just like every other hand waived skill check in the game.

I played a game years ago, ROLEMASTER maybe, where you could actually die trying to cross a city street and failing an ability check. The hand waiving of rules isn't a bad thing but it's also completely legit to require actual rolls.

i never played rolemaster. not my kind of thing, but i would consider forcing anybody to roll to know that tuesday comes directly after monday to be a powermad cookie bear.


There isn't a rule that says Roll to Breathe.

There also isn't a rule that says you never roll to breathe. It's in the purview of the GM, if something justifies an Ability Check to breathe then it gets rolled.

GMs adjudicate the game through rolling checks. Period. The how and why of those checks is also up to the GM.


zagnabbit wrote:

There isn't a rule that says Roll to Breathe.

There also isn't a rule that says you never roll to breathe. It's in the purview of the GM, if something justifies an Ability Check to breathe then it gets rolled.

GMs adjudicate the game through rolling checks. Period. The how and why of those checks is also up to the GM.

and some of those checks are redundant and serve no purpose but to slow down table time by punishing a PC for taking a dump stat you don't approve of. i would rather that the dump stat in question be banned than punished.

instead of forcing a lot of rolls for common knowledge, why not just ban intelligence scores that are so unplayably low?

my solution, if the stats were rolled, beef up that intellect to 10 as a freebie, and do the same for other PCs with stats below 10.


Power Mad Cookie Bear is occasionally the counter to Disruptive Munchkin.

An INT of 4 should lead to hilarious game situations. That's actually the only real value to ultra low stats. That's also how ability and skill checks for ultra low stats should work. If the game isn't helped from a group enjoyment standpoint any disruptive element should be excised.


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zagnabbit wrote:
disruptive element

You mean like the metagaming players that got annoyed that the 4 int player should have more negatives that the game says he should? Yeah, kick them to the curb...

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