Dispute over a character with low int


Advice

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TrollingJoker wrote:
- A good way of dealing with this is having him make a int check for mental capabilities like planning or executing a somewhat complex plan. Though 10 might be a bit low since he has a int of 4. He can easily make the check with a D20. 12 - 15 or something like that might be better

DCs in Pathfinder are fixed, not set per character. It's a DC 5 wisdom check to avoid a mishap when you fail to cast from a scroll, no matter who you are. We don't say, "Walking along the plank is a DC 15 dexterity check for you because you have low Dex, but anyone else can do it automatically."

If something is a DC 15 intelligence check, it should be a DC 15 intelligence check for everyone. The point of a DC 15 intelligence check is that it's easy(ish) for someone with high intelligence, and hard(er) for someone with low intelligence.

So if you want to apply that rule, apply it to all characters. The ones with high intelligence will be more likely to succeed, right?

Rogue: I pick the lock.
GM: The key is already in the lock.
Rogue: I unlock the door.
GM: Make an Intelligence check.
Rogue: I rolled a 10. My Int is 16, add my bonus of 3... that's 13.
GM: Ooh, not enough. Your character has never heard of a key, and can't figure it out.


Matthew Downie wrote:
TrollingJoker wrote:
- A good way of dealing with this is having him make a int check for mental capabilities like planning or executing a somewhat complex plan. Though 10 might be a bit low since he has a int of 4. He can easily make the check with a D20. 12 - 15 or something like that might be better
DCs in Pathfinder are fixed, not set per character. It's a DC 5 wisdom check to avoid a mishap when you fail to cast from a scroll, no matter who you are. We don't say, "Walking along the plank is a DC 15 dexterity check for you because you have low Dex, but anyone else can do it automatically."

Actually, we do. That's what the take 10 mechanics accomplish.

DC 10 is automatic for anyone with a "normal" attribute, so there's no need to roll. Unless you happen to have dumped your stat.


Matthew Downie wrote:
TrollingJoker wrote:
- A good way of dealing with this is having him make a int check for mental capabilities like planning or executing a somewhat complex plan. Though 10 might be a bit low since he has a int of 4. He can easily make the check with a D20. 12 - 15 or something like that might be better

DCs in Pathfinder are fixed, not set per character. It's a DC 5 wisdom check to avoid a mishap when you fail to cast from a scroll, no matter who you are. We don't say, "Walking along the plank is a DC 15 dexterity check for you because you have low Dex, but anyone else can do it automatically."

If something is a DC 15 intelligence check, it should be a DC 15 intelligence check for everyone. The point of a DC 15 intelligence check is that it's easy(ish) for someone with high intelligence, and hard(er) for someone with low intelligence.

So if you want to apply that rule, apply it to all characters. The ones with high intelligence will be more likely to succeed, right?

Rogue: I pick the lock.
GM: The key is already in the lock.
Rogue: I unlock the door.
GM: Make an Intelligence check.
Rogue: I rolled a 10. My Int is 16, add my bonus of 3... that's 13.
GM: Ooh, not enough. Your character has never heard of a key, and can't figure it out.

Well that's gonna annoy the heck out of everyone I'm sure haha.

The player himself has already offered to quit his character because he knows for sure that this topic will be repeated over and over again which is probably true. Though it's a bit extreme and even though the others would get what they want(that being no more discussing over what is a legitimate move or not), he would lose his Sorcerer which by a stroke of luck has the highest amount of HP of all the characters, has levitation boots and some other nifty magical items. So yeah it's a shame that he thinks that this would be the solution.


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Orfamay Quest wrote:
Matthew Downie wrote:


DCs in Pathfinder are fixed, not set per character. It's a DC 5 wisdom check to avoid a mishap when you fail to cast from a scroll, no matter who you are. We don't say, "Walking along the plank is a DC 15 dexterity check for you because you have low Dex, but anyone else can do it automatically."

Actually, we do. That's what the take 10 mechanics accomplish.

DC 10 is automatic for anyone with a "normal" attribute, so there's no need to roll. Unless you happen to have dumped your stat.

True for a DC 10 untrained skill check when not distracted and where the player knows they only need a 10. No take 10 rule for attribute checks, though.


It's really not complicated. Seriously just ask the player to come up with reasonable rules on what limitations he has himself.


I'd like to try my hand at role-playing a character with an intelligence score of 4, but trust this will not be the person you would want to break you out of jail.


Lenthalia wrote:
It's really not complicated. Seriously just ask the player to come up with reasonable rules on what limitations he has himself.

Oh it's definitely that complicated. He already gave a couple of examples as to what would be int based and what would be wis based. For example, he once found a ring and immediately put it on and instantly turned into a frog. He wouldn't know what enchanting is because of the low int. Afterwards he would know because he had encountered it. It would be fair for him to learn of it. You could argue that he should have let stuff like that happen once or twice more to really get the idea.

He argued that knowing what a prison is, what a city guard is and that jail cells have keys would be something even a low int person would know. He did not however conjure up a plan which involved multiple steps and phases. He simply went after them figuring that they would be in trouble(after seeing them being arrested) and decides to go straight after them without a real plan other than freeing them. Like Abyssian said, he actually did something stupid by not forging a plan and immediately going after them.

That is one of a couple of examples he had. Though the others are hell bent on the fact that his prison escape action wasn't entirely wis based. Though they agreed on the frog bit. It's just they have their own opinion on what wis and int should be and that's where the problem begins. When we try to make a mutual understanding about the difference in actions, a fight just starts up. One person fires up a lot which in turn angers him. So we never get anywhere with this. Though the DM hasn't been directly involved so far. He has been involved now.


TrollingJoker wrote:
Matthew Downie wrote:
TrollingJoker wrote:
- A good way of dealing with this is having him make a int check for mental capabilities like planning or executing a somewhat complex plan. Though 10 might be a bit low since he has a int of 4. He can easily make the check with a D20. 12 - 15 or something like that might be better

DCs in Pathfinder are fixed, not set per character. It's a DC 5 wisdom check to avoid a mishap when you fail to cast from a scroll, no matter who you are. We don't say, "Walking along the plank is a DC 15 dexterity check for you because you have low Dex, but anyone else can do it automatically."

If something is a DC 15 intelligence check, it should be a DC 15 intelligence check for everyone. The point of a DC 15 intelligence check is that it's easy(ish) for someone with high intelligence, and hard(er) for someone with low intelligence.

So if you want to apply that rule, apply it to all characters. The ones with high intelligence will be more likely to succeed, right?

Rogue: I pick the lock.
GM: The key is already in the lock.
Rogue: I unlock the door.
GM: Make an Intelligence check.
Rogue: I rolled a 10. My Int is 16, add my bonus of 3... that's 13.
GM: Ooh, not enough. Your character has never heard of a key, and can't figure it out.

Well that's gonna annoy the heck out of everyone I'm sure haha.

The player himself has already offered to quit his character because he knows for sure that this topic will be repeated over and over again which is probably true. Though it's a bit extreme and even though the others would get what they want(that being no more discussing over what is a legitimate move or not), he would lose his Sorcerer which by a stroke of luck has the highest amount of HP of all the characters, has levitation boots and some other nifty magical items. So yeah it's a shame that he thinks that this would be the solution.

Honestly... The other players shouldn't be commenting on his actions. If he is doing something so far beyond an INT 4 character that it needs a comment, then the GM should be asking. If the players aren't satisfied with the GM's amount of interruptions, then they should take it to the GM in between sessions.

And yeah... Most tasks in a 3d6 stat creation system should have a MAX DC of 9 and here is why:

With 3d6, the odds of rolling below 10 is 37.49%... A character rolls 6 stats. That means the chance of having a stat below 10 is around 94%.
If we imagine that the low ability score will be placed averagely in all the 6 stats, that means a little more than 15% of the population has less than 10 in intelligence... And that is without even taking multiple low stats into consideration.
If you set a DC of 10, that would mean that 15% of the population would fail the task at least 50% of the time... That seems very high for coming up with a plan of "I break the key in the lock to keep the guards locked up"...


TrollingJoker wrote:

So in a session I'm part of there is a bit of trouble concerning a sorcerer with 4 int and 12 wisdom. Other players feel like the sorcerer isn't being role played correctly. For example, the entire team screwed up and was arrested except for said sorcerer because he was somewhere else at the time. He returned though just in time to see them being arrested. He used invisibility and followed them inside. Asked if he could percept keys and was told where they were by the dm.

He then grabbed them and used them to open the cells of his allies and when a guard came to see if everything was good, he hid the keys under his clothes so they couldn't be seen.

The other players argued that he isn't smart enough to know that he should save them while he says that it's a matter of wis not int.
They also said that couldn't know the keys are also invisible when hidden under his clothes but the spell description says so specifically.

What are your takes on this? Are the other players correct or are they harassing him without proper reasons?

Thanks in advance.

There's NEVER a good reason to harass another player.

Intelligence is unquantifiable. Unless you somehow made a rule to provide absolute benchmarks to what one INT score can do that another can't, and these guys can quote a number and back it up with evidence, then these jerks don't have a leg to stand on.

Unless it's disrupting or betraying the group, the only person who has any business advising players on their RP is the GM.


Oh... And as another fun calculation... With a 3d6 system around 10% of characters will have a stat of 3-4. With that high a percentage it is unfair to punish him/her to harshly for not playing it the way the others want.


I offered the link to this thread to the GM and hopefully we'll can figure something out together which works for everyone.


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber

omg, people here are weird.

an Int of 3/4 doesn't mean he's mentally disabled, he is still at average an IQ 100 being, and is awakened and thus able to follow simple common sense and use knowledge that he has.

A good example of a low int character that isn't mentally handicapped would be like Natsu from Fairy Tail. He can't follow things like math or complex information or rules, but he can still put two and two together pretty easily.

Low int equates anything to an apathy for knowledge or a simple inability to think on deep rule sets.

the character in question, actually has above average Wis, and superb charisma, no where does that suggest a mental handicap, someone with a disability would have all his mental stats pretty low. Wisdom suggests he can easily use common sense and follow through with any task that he set for himself. Charisma says that he can at the very least summon up enough force of personality to cast spells pretty well and get people convinced of his conviction.


To be picky, a lot of disabilities do produce very narrow regions of incapability. A huge gap between some mental stats and others would typically indicate a cognitive disorder.


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber
seebs wrote:
To be picky, a lot of disabilities do produce very narrow regions of incapability. A huge gap between some mental stats and others would typically indicate a cognitive disorder.

but NOT a low IQ or a stat change that can be fixed by having it as a trained class skill.

Scarab Sages

Bandw2 wrote:

omg, people here are weird.

an Int of 3/4 doesn't mean he's mentally disabled, he is still at average an IQ 100 being,

People think otherwise because we've been playing since 1e and Gygax summed it up that way back then. Here is a short history of Int and IQ, at least for AD&D:

http://www.superdan.net/gaming/dnd3/dndmisc/int_iq.html


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber
Berti Blackfoot wrote:
Bandw2 wrote:

omg, people here are weird.

an Int of 3/4 doesn't mean he's mentally disabled, he is still at average an IQ 100 being,

People think otherwise because we've been playing since 1e and Gygax summed it up that way back then. Here is a short history of Int and IQ, at least for AD&D:

http://www.superdan.net/gaming/dnd3/dndmisc/int_iq.html

yes, but at some point along the way, there became a distinction between an awakened creature and a non-awakened creature. An awakened creature can read and write as a base things of at least one language.


Average human IQ = 100; average human Intelligence score = 10. Dolphin IQ = between 35 and 49, average 42; dolphin Intelligence score = 2.

100-42 = 58. 10-2 = 8. 58/8 = 7.25 IQ per Int point away from 10. INT 10-4 = 6; 6*7.25 = 43.5. 100 (ave human IQ) - 43.5 = 56.5. INT 4 = IQ 56.5

IQ 56.5 = Mild Intellectual Disability. "Educable with adjustments. Can learn to care for oneself. Employable in routinized jobs but require supervision. Might live alone but do best in supervised settings. Immature but with adequate social adjustment, usually no obvious physical anomalies. ...typically not caused by brain damage but part of the normal variance of intelligence."

At this level, a person:
-takes longer to learn to talk, but can communicate well once he or she knows how
-fully independent in self-care
-has problems with reading and writing
-is socially immature
-is unable to deal with responsibilities of marriage or parenting
-may benefit from specialized education plans

On a personal level: I have a 12 year old granddaughter who functions at this level. She would be capable of understanding the need for an escape plan and capable of idealizing such a plan. However the plan would be very simplistic. It would be as detailed as "sneak behind the guard, kill him with a karate punch, and take his keys" (she is convinced she knows karate because she saw it in a movie). Unfortunately, someone of this intellect would likely also be extremely sensitive to causing pain and therefore a terrible choice for an adventurer.

Liberty's Edge

The big issue with that is that Dolphins are much smarter than wolves, and smarter than some humans. The Pathfinder dolphin stats are thus incorrect.


Its actually not a "big issue". I've provided a real world guide for playing this character and its limits. That's just a nickle-and-dime argument that doesn't really change the point.

Liberty's Edge

HardMaple wrote:
Its actually not a "big issue". I've provided a real world guide for playing this character and its limits. That's just a nickle-and-dime argument that doesn't really change the point.

Uh...if dolphins, with IQ 42, averaged Int 7 your whole argument falls completely apart. So...the fact that the dolphin Int is wrong is indeed sorta an issue there. Now, personally, I think 7 is stretching it a bit for a score like that (though I also think dolphins are probably smarter than IQ tests indicate)...but the simple fact that the basic numbers for your comparison (specifically, Int 2 = IQ 42) are completely off invalidates the numbers you derive from them completely.


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The Village Idiot is something everyone should look at. With a 4 int, "A village idiot can also represent any simple commoner, by replacing his Climb skill with an appropriate Craft or Profession skill. A stableboy might have the Ride skill instead, while a dock rat may possess the Swim skill. An urchin runner might have the Fleet and Run feats instead."

So your dock rat, urchin runner, stableboy, or ANY simple commoner work just fine with a 4 int. No rocket surgeon but they aren't drooling on themselves. Pretty much they should have NO issue with the tactics used in the OP's example.


Nearyn wrote:

What a load of tosh. I'm sorry, but who do the other players think they are, telling this guy how to play his character? This character is not intelligent, so of course, if the he starts talking complex math and high-litterature, perhaps someone should ask the player if he really thinks that, that is what his character would realistically do. ASK him if that is what he thinks. Not tell him that it is not. It's not like the guy is lacking the wisdom to make good decisions, and he can be expected to know how his own spells work, just as much as a fighter can be expected to know his sword is made of a hilt, blade, pommel and crossguard.

If there has been a historical issue in the group of this player dumpstatting and then just roleplaying his way around it, as if it didn't matter, then I can see a reason why you would take the player aside to ask him, after the game. But if I was said player, I'd frankly ask the others to take their noses out of my business while I'm roleplaying my character.

My 2 cents.

-Nearyn

Edit: does this thread belong on the advice board?

Exactly!


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I've seen this come up before, so I will say. Not everything we consider as indicative of intelligence is covered under the stat intelligence.


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If players are expected to roleplayer dumb characters' IQs how are they expected to roleplay intelligent ones?

Hello Mr Wizard with 20 INT.

Wiz: I'm going to cast mage arm...
GM: Wait- You realise that's a bad idea and realise the best solution would be to do nothing this round.
Wiz: Great! I'll do that!

Fun times.

The only sense these restrictions and bonuses have are in direct relation to the pertinent skills and abilities, not the combination of intuition, experience, knowledge, inspiration and many other factors than might motivate a character to figure out a course of action. I'm pretty good at 2 and 3d image-based puzzles but I can't remember my bank account number half the time.

I wouldn't be keen to play in such a restrictive environment. Played to that degree, it seems logical that all the low int, melee guys would be dead within a few encounters and all the high int guys would go get a safe job in a Uni somewhere.


barry lyndon wrote:

If players are expected to roleplayer dumb characters' IQs how are they expected to roleplay intelligent ones?

Hello Mr Wizard with 20 INT.

Wiz: I'm going to cast mage arm...
GM: Wait- You realise that's a bad idea and realise the best solution would be to do nothing this round.
Wiz: Great! I'll do that!

Fun times.

The only sense these restrictions and bonuses have are in direct relation to the pertinent skills and abilities, not the combination of intuition, experience, knowledge, inspiration and many other factors than might motivate a character to figure out a course of action. I'm pretty good at 2 and 3d image-based puzzles but I can't remember my bank account number half the time.

I wouldn't be keen to play in such a restrictive environment. Played to that degree, it seems logical that all the low int, melee guys would be dead within a few encounters and all the high int guys would go get a safe job in a Uni somewhere.

Funny you mentioned a wizard with 20 int who acts like that.

We used to have one who did just that. He walked around with a great sword which he wasn't proficient with and kept attacking with that. Also when he used spells he often didn't think of consequences or thought of telling us what his plan was.

For example he once used Magic Jar on a demon WE were fighting. So he would turn into our sole enemy and try to reason with us AS the demon by saying that he is our wizard. That was the first time he used Magic Jar and he did it like that. Of course our characters wouldn't believe that.

This one other time we were fighting a hoard of skeletons when we were still low level. What did he do? He managed to sneak past the skeletons and opened the final chamber in which a Skeletal Champion was residing.

We often called him the retard wizard even though he had a decent amount of wisdom and around 20 int.

This was in the same session with the Sorcerer in question. The wizard though is now dead after being eaten by a tree monster.


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber

well at least the wizard ended up being good for the environment.

Scarab Sages

barry lyndon wrote:

If players are expected to roleplayer dumb characters' IQs how are they expected to roleplay intelligent ones?

Hello Mr Wizard with 20 INT.

Wiz: I'm going to cast mage arm...
GM: Wait- You realise that's a bad idea and realise the best solution would be to do nothing this round.
Wiz: Great! I'll do that!

Fun times.

There were certainly times I said "are you SURE you want to do that?" and the player said "well ... yes I do!"

Obviously the player was not as smart as the character.

hardmaple wrote:


she is convinced she knows karate because she saw it in a movie

this made me LOL


4 int isn't unbelievably low. Its statted by Paizo as the common village idiot. Capable of taking directions, doing odd jobs, being a functional member of society but generally lacking in alot of skill to take their own initiative.

Grand Lodge

I am going to have to weigh in and say that an Int of 4 would be someone who is very forgetful and tends to have short term memory problems.

I am a nurse so I am going to base the idea of mental scores on Dementia.

Wisdom - would be something that that is acquired over a long period of time, ie. Common sense, depending on the age of the character you could say that he does get somethings or hasn't had that exposure because of his lowered intelligence.

Charisma - would be as people said force of personality, that is something that isn't always so much of a mental stat, as a lot of people tend to use it as a looks stat too. There are plenty of "non gorgeous" people who can talk the talk. Also this character can use it to "present" well, by this i mean I have known many dementia patients who are well into the late states of the disease but can talk you in circles and make it seem like they aren't forgetful.

Intelligence - I would play the character as forgetful, his short term memory is affected by this because he can learn new things but doesn't tend to retain them. The party comes up with a solid plan and if someone doesn't constantly remind him his part he may wander off or spring the trap at the wrong time. I would say maybe a 5-6 year old child intelligence, they get most things but tend to "forget" when it comes to major things like "don't push your sister."

Anyway end rant.


Raltus wrote:

I am going to have to weigh in and say that an Int of 4 would be someone who is very forgetful and tends to have short term memory problems.

I am a nurse so I am going to base the idea of mental scores on Dementia.

Wisdom - would be something that that is acquired over a long period of time, ie. Common sense, depending on the age of the character you could say that he does get somethings or hasn't had that exposure because of his lowered intelligence.

Charisma - would be as people said force of personality, that is something that isn't always so much of a mental stat, as a lot of people tend to use it as a looks stat too. There are plenty of "non gorgeous" people who can talk the talk. Also this character can use it to "present" well, by this i mean I have known many dementia patients who are well into the late states of the disease but can talk you in circles and make it seem like they aren't forgetful.

Intelligence - I would play the character as forgetful, his short term memory is affected by this because he can learn new things but doesn't tend to retain them. The party comes up with a solid plan and if someone doesn't constantly remind him his part he may wander off or spring the trap at the wrong time. I would say maybe a 5-6 year old child intelligence, they get most things but tend to "forget" when it comes to major things like "don't push your sister."

Anyway end rant.

I would probably suggest this to the other players but I have a feeling they still want some kind of rule which states he can't do anything too specific like the jail break.


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In my opinion those other players should be forced to play characters with a 4 in a stat of their choice. See if they like being limited like they want to limit this guy.


TrollingJoker wrote:
I would probably suggest this to the other players but I have a feeling they still want some kind of rule which states he can't do anything too specific like the jail break.

If you want a 'rule', show them the village idiot monster entry. It's clear after reading it they are totally wrong and he didn't do anything wrong. Unless they think a dock rat, urchin runner, stableboy, or ANY simple commoner isn't able to hide a key...


graystone wrote:
TrollingJoker wrote:
I would probably suggest this to the other players but I have a feeling they still want some kind of rule which states he can't do anything too specific like the jail break.
If you want a 'rule', show them the village idiot monster entry. It's clear after reading it they are totally wrong and he didn't do anything wrong. Unless they think a dock rat, urchin runner, stableboy, or ANY simple commoner isn't able to hide a key...

Yeah well saying that he can't know how his own spells work because he has low int isn't really fair. It's more the part about following them and help them break out. They expected him to bolt right after them like "WHAT ARE YOU GUYS DOING TO MY FRIENDS!?" or something among those lines.


TrollingJoker wrote:


I would probably suggest this to the other players but I have a feeling they still want some kind of rule which states he can't do anything too specific like the jail break.

Then they are objectively wrong as a simple matter of fact.

It really is that simple.

Your players are mad that another player isn't being extra-punished for his dump stat, even though the rules really do cover the complete scope of penalties he faces. They want extra rules because... I dunno. Honestly, it sounds to me like they're jerks. I wouldn't want to play with people who got all angry because another player played his character effectively in a way which absolutely does not go against any rules.

Your players have a thoroughly confused understanding of what "intelligence" is, and what the implications of "not being very intelligent" are. They are not correct about our world, and they are not correct about the world modeled by the Pathfinder rules. Look, people have used Down Syndrome as an example in this thread. Lemme point you at a thing.

Here's some writing by a man with Down Syndrome.

Are your players going to say that this man is obviously cheating because they "know" that someone "stupid" can't do something complicated like that? Yeah, probably. But that would make them bigots. "Stupid" people can in fact be quite a lot smarter than people are usually aware.

Honestly, what's mostly at issue isn't how much cognitive ability people have, it's whether they are making an effort to make reasonable decisions. (See also, the idiot mage with a 20 int.) Your sorcerer is fine.


Raltus wrote:

I am going to have to weigh in and say that an Int of 4 would be someone who is very forgetful and tends to have short term memory problems.

I am a nurse so I am going to base the idea of mental scores on Dementia.

Wisdom - would be something that that is acquired over a long period of time, ie. Common sense, depending on the age of the character you could say that he does get somethings or hasn't had that exposure because of his lowered intelligence.

Charisma - would be as people said force of personality, that is something that isn't always so much of a mental stat, as a lot of people tend to use it as a looks stat too. There are plenty of "non gorgeous" people who can talk the talk. Also this character can use it to "present" well, by this i mean I have known many dementia patients who are well into the late states of the disease but can talk you in circles and make it seem like they aren't forgetful.

Intelligence - I would play the character as forgetful, his short term memory is affected by this because he can learn new things but doesn't tend to retain them. The party comes up with a solid plan and if someone doesn't constantly remind him his part he may wander off or spring the trap at the wrong time. I would say maybe a 5-6 year old child intelligence, they get most things but tend to "forget" when it comes to major things like "don't push your sister."

Anyway end rant.

Any attempt to make a relation between the unquantifiable abstract qualities of Wisdom, Charisma, and Intelligence to PF's numerical system is a fool's errand at best.


Zhayne wrote:
Raltus wrote:

I am going to have to weigh in and say that an Int of 4 would be someone who is very forgetful and tends to have short term memory problems.

I am a nurse so I am going to base the idea of mental scores on Dementia.

Wisdom - would be something that that is acquired over a long period of time, ie. Common sense, depending on the age of the character you could say that he does get somethings or hasn't had that exposure because of his lowered intelligence.

Charisma - would be as people said force of personality, that is something that isn't always so much of a mental stat, as a lot of people tend to use it as a looks stat too. There are plenty of "non gorgeous" people who can talk the talk. Also this character can use it to "present" well, by this i mean I have known many dementia patients who are well into the late states of the disease but can talk you in circles and make it seem like they aren't forgetful.

Intelligence - I would play the character as forgetful, his short term memory is affected by this because he can learn new things but doesn't tend to retain them. The party comes up with a solid plan and if someone doesn't constantly remind him his part he may wander off or spring the trap at the wrong time. I would say maybe a 5-6 year old child intelligence, they get most things but tend to "forget" when it comes to major things like "don't push your sister."

Anyway end rant.

Any attempt to make a relation between the unquantifiable abstract qualities of Wisdom, Charisma, and Intelligence to PF's numerical system is a fool's errand at best.

But does that mean it shows low int or low wis?


seebs wrote:

Your players are mad that another player isn't being extra-punished for his dump stat, even though the rules really do cover the complete scope of penalties he faces.

Your players have a thoroughly confused understanding of what "intelligence" is, and what the implications of "not being very intelligent" are.

Annoyed or confused would be more like it. It's not like this is a constant warfare. It just simply annoys the Sorcerer himself because of the 2nd thing you said. In his opinion they haven't got a good impression of the difference between int based actions as well as wis based actions.

They often just simply write it off as int. It's just them being narrow minded though the Sorcerer himself also has trouble taking in their opinions.


TrollingJoker wrote:
seebs wrote:

Your players are mad that another player isn't being extra-punished for his dump stat, even though the rules really do cover the complete scope of penalties he faces.

Your players have a thoroughly confused understanding of what "intelligence" is, and what the implications of "not being very intelligent" are.

Annoyed or confused would be more like it. It's not like this is a constant warfare. It just simply annoys the Sorcerer himself because of the 2nd thing you said. In his opinion they haven't got a good impression of the difference between int based actions as well as wis based actions.

They often just simply write it off as int. It's just them being narrow minded though the Sorcerer himself also has trouble taking in their opinions.

I would just tell them that, based on their inability to accept new information, you've docked them all 4 points of int. If they then argue with you, dock them 4 points of wis. If they get visibly mad, dock them 4 points of cha.

Then they'll have nice concrete examples of the distinctions between these stats!


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Ultimately, this should involve the GM simply saying 'You roleplay your guys how you want, he roleplays his guy like he wants, end of discussion'.

Grand Lodge

seebs wrote:

Zhayne wrote:

Raltus wrote:
I am going to have to weigh in and say that an Int of 4 would be someone who is very forgetful and tends to have short term memory problems.
I am a nurse so I am going to base the idea of mental scores on Dementia.
Wisdom - would be something that that is acquired over a long period of time, ie. Common sense, depending on the age of the character you could say that he does get somethings or hasn't had that exposure because of his lowered intelligence.
Charisma - would be as people said force of personality, that is something that isn't always so much of a mental stat, as a lot of people tend to use it as a looks stat too. There are plenty of "non gorgeous" people who can talk the talk. Also this character can use it to "present" well, by this i mean I have known many dementia patients who are well into the late states of the disease but can talk you in circles and make it seem like they aren't forgetful.
Intelligence - I would play the character as forgetful, his short term memory is affected by this because he can learn new things but doesn't tend to retain them. The party comes up with a solid plan and if someone doesn't constantly remind him his part he may wander off or spring the trap at the wrong time. I would say maybe a 5-6 year old child intelligence, they get most things but tend to "forget" when it comes to major things like "don't push your sister."
Anyway end rant.
Any attempt to make a relation between the unquantifiable abstract qualities of Wisdom, Charisma, and Intelligence to PF's numerical system is a fool's errand at best.
But does that mean it shows low int or low wis?

I guess it is all in how you view it, to me Wisdom is like experience, you get more wise as your experience stuff, intelligence as someone said earlier is "book" learning. Yes I know you "experience" books and learn from them.

To me Intelligence is your memory, if you can train your brain to remember the intricate formula of spells your a wizard, if it comes naturally to you and you just do it cuz well your a sorcerer.

This guy chose to play a sorc and put a low intelligence, he isn't an idiot by any means, he just can't remember where he put the car keys ever.

Grand Lodge

Also a lot of dementia people can still do many learned behaviours from a longer period ago or live in the past. They couldn't explain to you why they do this or even that they are doing it because the intelligent portions of their minds is starting to fade away.


So, what, PRECISELY, can a 6 INT do that a 4 INT can't? No 'usually' or 'probably' or 'might'. Precise, undeniable benchmarks backed up by statistical data from multiple sources.


To be fair, this was his first session. It's been months later now since we've started and the GM helped him with the stats. He wanted something that does magic and since one guy picked wizard and he liked the sound of using spells without preparations, he picked Sorcerer.

And this has been a small issue for some time but it never really meant much but it lately it happened a bit more and the other players thought the role playing of every character (not just him) should improve. In which case they reminded him that he should act more "dumb" using arguments like the jail break.

So they do this because everyone agreed on the fact that role playing should be improved. Though he was absent by chance at the time, he agreed when he heard about the idea aside from the int wis bit.

Also he doesn't mind playing a dumb character but he doesn't want to tip toe around because of simple things. He has no problem with for example being forgetful or being rash and not thinking things through. But when it comes to possibly being restricted because it might be above his smarts, he isn't as willing.


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TrollingJoker wrote:

Too be fair, this was his first session. It's been months later now since we've started and the GM helped him with the stats. He wanted something that does magic and since one guy picked wizard and he liked the sound of using spells without preparations, he picked Sorcerer.

And this has been a small issue for some time but it never really meant much but it lately it happened a bit more and the other players thought the role playing of every character (not just him) should improve. In which case they reminded him that he should act more "dumb" using arguments like the jail break.

So they do this because everyone agreed on the fact that role playing should be improved. Though he was absent by chance at the time, he agreed when he heard about the idea aside from the int wis bit.

Also he doesn't mind playing a dumb character but he doesn't want to tip toe around because of simple things. He has no problem with for example being forgetful or being rash and not thinking things through. But when it comes to possibly being restricted because it might be above his smarts, he isn't as willing.

Unrelated. He has every right to RP his character as he desires. The stats are abstract, and thus he determines what they mean, not anybody else.


TrollingJoker wrote:
It's more the part about following them and help them break out. They expected him to bolt right after them like "WHAT ARE YOU GUYS DOING TO MY FRIENDS!?" or something among those lines.

And this is what's totally wrong. Again, it's right there in the village idiot monster entry. Replace his character with 'any simple commoner' or 'stableboy'. Would they have the issue if they didn't know those kind of characters have a 4 int? It's quite clear 4 int doesn't mean what they think it does.

Why would he rush right in? Toddlers can be surprisingly clever and I'm not expecting calculus out of them. What he did was a fairly simple plan. (follow, open cells, hide key). "Hey commoner. Can you follow someone, open some doors and then hide the key?" Do you really expect "Derp....." and he starts drooling on himself?


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

I'm going to chime in on the side of the sorcerer. The other players should not be able to tell him how to play his character.

Earlier on these boards there were posts saying INT=4 roughly equated with an IQ of 50-60. Let's assume that is true.

I have a cousin, Don. Don is intellectually disabled (the new correct term) and has an IQ at the low end of the 50's. He commutes to and from work every weekday on a public bus. Don reads, writes and does math at about the level of a nine-year old. He does chores around the house (including cooking meals) for his parents. When they pass, he will move in with other family members because he is not completely independent.

If Don can do all this, the sorcerer could certainly make that jailbreak happen. It just might take him longer.

Maybe that could suggest how the sorcerer might fit into the party better. They look out for him, and he looks out for them.

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Lenthalia wrote:
Wolves, and I'm fairly sure the majority of vertebrae animals, are 2. I only know that because I have a rule that creatures with intelligence 1 can't use tactics of any kind. :)

Which, of course isn't what RAW says at all.

Give any monster a feat, and RAW says the creature knows how to use it. If it's a flanking feat, then the creatures know to flank. Overrun, trip, etc? Same thing.

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