I think Ross is saying that NPC's were not intended to be used as monsters and technically it is just gaming the CR system, so instead of just justifying it*, with NPC levels just make the monster tougher, but keep the CR the same.
*I said justifying because a GM may say what he did was rules legal, just like some players use RAW as an excuse to bypass RAI.
And what I was saying was that some DMs do not feel comfortable by "just making the monster tougher" without some rules behind it. This is a highly codified gaming environment - Paizo promotes that mentality, yet the offered fix is DM Fiat?
As to the spirit of the rules/RAW/RAI- I'm not buying it.
Nowhere in the rules as written or even intended does it say you cannot add NPC levels to any creature. There is a guide and number parameters that list CR baseline values which I as a DM should be trying to follow.
On the other hand players who are hyper-optimized, do not have such a guide. There isn't a list of "what your numbers should be like" for PCs or even quantifying abstract abilities (newest splat exploitable spell or feat) where now a 5th level PC should be instead treated as a 6th level PC.If I use a rule in the bestiary and don't break those values (291) I am not breaking RAW or even RAI - since there is no inference that these NPC classes (page 297-298) are for humanoids only. These classes do not have a racial or stat requirement - they don't even have a status requirement (Corporeal, alive, etc). This is not a nebulous debate about a new spell (create pit) and how it can be abused. Adding in levels to creatures has been an option since 3rd ed was published. In PF, the first NPC level doesn't count if it doesn't match or exceeded HD. If a creature is performing under CR, then I see this as both a legit (RAW) and reasonable (RAI) fix.
If I add a level of Warrior to a Gelatinous Cube I am not looking to make a Cube that once served in the city militia and now decided to explore the local crypt...
I get what both of you were saying, but it seemed like you were talking past each other.
I'm pretty sure you can't Vital Strike a touch attack or a ranged touch attack, both attacks the Witchfire has are those. If you can, then Shocking Grasp and Ray-users just got a massive damage boost.Vital Strike requires the attack action. Abilities that involve touch attacks are their own, separate, standard actions.
Both correct and incorrect. Touch attack SPELLS are incompatible with vital strike. However, the witchfire is not holding a charge. The witchfire is using a natural attack. Vital Strike works just fine with natural attacks. As does Improved Natural Attack. You can also attack with a natural touch attack at a -5 penalty along with manufactured weapons.
For example, let's say you have a bard lich. The bard lich has taken Improved Natural Attack (bringing its 1d8 touch attack to 2d6) and Vital Strike. If it gets the chance to full attack it uses it's +2 rapier to make all of its normal attacks and attacks with the touch attack at a -5 for 2d6 damage. If he needs to move + attack, he can vital strike for 4d6 negative energy damage as a standard action. If he is hasted, he can touch twice.
The moral of this story is Touch Attack =/= Touch Spell.
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You can vital strike with guns, you can vital strike with a witchfire.
Looking at the SRD:
Witchfires don't have a melee attack, they have an incorporeal touch attack. That's quite different. I don't think you can Vital Strike that.
Secondly, that's a witchfire Bolt, not a ray. Bolts have saves ...although they don't list one, and it probably should be a ray attack, since it seems to mimic a ghost more then anything. I know you can't Vital Strike with a bolt.
Pretty sure both attacks are (Su), too, and I don't think you can VS with an SU attack, either. They seem extensions of its Witchfire ability...
Meh. YMMV. Then again, there's probably a reason it wasn't designed with Vital Strike.
==Aelryinth
Looking at the SRD:
Witchfires don't have a melee attack, they have an incorporeal touch attack. That's quite different. I don't think you can Vital Strike that.
Secondly, that's a witchfire Bolt, not a ray. Bolts have saves ...although they don't list one, and it probably should be a ray attack, since it seems to mimic a ghost more then anything. I know you can't Vital Strike with a bolt.
Pretty sure both attacks are (Su), too, and I don't think you can VS with an SU attack, either. They seem extensions of its Witchfire ability...
Meh. YMMV. Then again, there's probably a reason it wasn't designed with Vital Strike.
==Aelryinth
A melee incorporeal touch attack is just that. A melee incorporeal touch attack. There's nothing stopping you from using Vital Strike with them. Merely you're vital striking with a touch attack that also happens to be melee and incorporeal.
Both the witchfire's melee incorporeal touch attack and bolt are both used merely as a normal attack. Also, amusingly, neither the touch nor bolt are Su, only the witchflame ability is.
A witchfire can use Improved Natural Attack to take her 8d6 natural attack to a 12d6 natural attack as well. Vital Strike + INA just owns so much face for a Witchfire. She can even vital strike with her bolts.
This isn't complicated. >_>
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Looking at the SRD:
Witchfires don't have a melee attack, they have an incorporeal touch attack. That's quite different. I don't think you can Vital Strike that.
Secondly, that's a witchfire Bolt, not a ray. Bolts have saves ...although they don't list one, and it probably should be a ray attack, since it seems to mimic a ghost more then anything. I know you can't Vital Strike with a bolt.
Pretty sure both attacks are (Su), too, and I don't think you can VS with an SU attack, either. They seem extensions of its Witchfire ability...
Meh. YMMV. Then again, there's probably a reason it wasn't designed with Vital Strike.
==Aelryinth
The incorporeal touch attack is still a melee attack. You must be within reach of the witchfire and it rolls a d20 + BAB + ability score against touch AC.
A touch attack is a melee attack and a ranged touch attack is a ranged attack. To say otherwise is... weird.
'Bolt' is not a defined game term outside of Crossbow bolt. I'm not sure where you're getting the idea that a 'bolt' is a defined game term like 'ray' is.
Incorporeal touch attacks work similarly to normal touch attacks except that they also ignore cover bonuses. Incorporeal touch attacks do not ignore armor bonuses granted by force effects, such as mage armor and bracers of armor.
So Incorporeal Touch Attacks (like the Witchfire has) function just like a touch attack, except it also ignores cover and doesn't bypass force effects.
If you can vital strike a touch attack at all (which you can), then you can vital strike an incorporeal touch attack. Same as with the witchfire bolt; nothing prevents this from working, Supernatural or not.
Pretty sure both attacks are (Su), too, and I don't think you can VS with an SU attack, either. They seem extensions of its Witchfire ability...
As written, they are as much an extension of the witchfire ability as a snake's fangs are an extension of its poison.
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Touch Attacks: Some attacks completely disregard armor, including shields and natural armor—the aggressor need only touch a foe for such an attack to take full effect. In these cases, the attacker makes a touch attack roll (either ranged or melee). When you are the target of a touch attack, your AC doesn't include any armor bonus, shield bonus, or natural armor bonus. All other modifiers, such as your size modifier, Dexterity modifier, and deflection bonus (if any) apply normally. Some creatures have the ability to make incorporeal touch attacks. These attacks bypass solid objects, such as armor and shields, by passing through them. Incorporeal touch attacks work similarly to normal touch attacks except that they also ignore cover bonuses. Incorporeal touch attacks do not ignore armor bonuses granted by force effects, such as mage armor and bracers of armor.
Nothing here prevents Vital Strike OR Improved Natural Attack. They just call out a special quality of the attack.
Touch Attacks: Some attacks completely disregard armor, including shields and natural armor—the aggressor need only touch a foe for such an attack to take full effect. In these cases, the attacker makes a touch attack roll (either ranged or melee). When you are the target of a touch attack, your AC doesn't include any armor bonus, shield bonus, or natural armor bonus. All other modifiers, such as your size modifier, Dexterity modifier, and deflection bonus (if any) apply normally. Some creatures have the ability to make incorporeal touch attacks. These attacks bypass solid objects, such as armor and shields, by passing through them. Incorporeal touch attacks work similarly to normal touch attacks except that they also ignore cover bonuses. Incorporeal touch attacks do not ignore armor bonuses granted by force effects, such as mage armor and bracers of armor.Nothing here prevents Vital Strike OR Improved Natural Attack. They just call out a special quality of the attack.
I don't think Imp. Natural Attack works on the Witchfire as the touch attacks deal fire damage and aren't natural attacks. If the Witchfire were to somehow get larger, it's 8d6 fire damage wouldn't increase in damage, because it's not dependent on the Witchfire's body.
Doesn't stop it from working with Vital Strike though as Vital Strike works with all weapons. Basically, anything that isn't a spell and has an attack roll with a variable effect can be used with Vital Strike.
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Now I'm just curious...
Let's break the witchfire.
We'll give it the giant template 4 times, bringing it from large to colossal in size. That increases its CR from 9 to 13 and its attack from 8d6 to 32d6. Then we'll throw 9 levels of disassociated levels of antipaladin onto it ('cause paladin levels aren't associated with any role) and grab Improved Natural Attack, Vital Strike, Improved Vital Strike, Greater Vital Strike, and Ability Focus (Witchflame). Then we give her a minion that can cast strong jaw.
Math courtesy of Aratrok.
8d6->12d6->16d6->24d6->32d6 for colossal.
32d6->48d6 for Imp. Natural Attack
48d6->96d6 for Strong Jaw
96d6->384d6 for Greater Vital Strike
Aratrok: "Which is the point where you just dump a bucket full of d6s on someone's head and declare them dead."
But it gets a bit better. See once they've hit someone with their attack, they must make a save (DC = a lot). On a failed will save, the target becomes vulnerable (+50% more damage) to fire due to the witchflame ability.
So if the witchfire hit you on the surprise round AND the opening round, you take 384d6 on the first attack, and the equivalent of 576d6 on the second attack, for a total of 960d6 worth of fire damage in 1.5 rounds. That's an average of 3,360 fire damage.
Touch Attacks: Some attacks completely disregard armor, including shields and natural armor—the aggressor need only touch a foe for such an attack to take full effect. In these cases, the attacker makes a touch attack roll (either ranged or melee). When you are the target of a touch attack, your AC doesn't include any armor bonus, shield bonus, or natural armor bonus. All other modifiers, such as your size modifier, Dexterity modifier, and deflection bonus (if any) apply normally. Some creatures have the ability to make incorporeal touch attacks. These attacks bypass solid objects, such as armor and shields, by passing through them. Incorporeal touch attacks work similarly to normal touch attacks except that they also ignore cover bonuses. Incorporeal touch attacks do not ignore armor bonuses granted by force effects, such as mage armor and bracers of armor.Nothing here prevents Vital Strike OR Improved Natural Attack. They just call out a special quality of the attack.I don't think Imp. Natural Attack works on the Witchfire as the touch attacks deal fire damage and aren't natural attacks. If the Witchfire were to somehow get larger, it's 8d6 fire damage wouldn't increase in damage, because it's not dependent on the Witchfire's body.
Doesn't stop it from working with Vital Strike though as Vital Strike works with all weapons. Basically, anything that isn't a spell and has an attack roll with a variable effect can be used with Vital Strike.
It works on a wraith's attacks which deal negative energy. I don't see why it wouldn't work on a witchfire's.
384d6 for Greater Vital Strike
The thing is, the fact that this post even exists -- regardless as to whether it's allowable -- is a poster-child for the fact that the Vital Strike chain itself is poorly-designed, not that the witchfire is. If Vital Strike worked more like sneak attack, for example (+Xd6), it would be balanced for all kinds of applications, from weapons to witchfires.
Now I want Banshees to have the Vital Strike chain (ducks...)
(pops back up) I suppose ghost warriors would break the CR the same. An 11th level Warrior Ghost with the vital strike chain hitting for 33d6 at a CR 11 is bad.. and that's before templates and other stuff.
We'll give it the giant template 4 times, bringing it from large to colossal in size. That increases its CR from 9 to 13 and its attack from 8d6 to 32d6.
Just curious, why does it increase his attack?
We'll give it the giant template 4 times, bringing it from large to colossal in size. That increases its CR from 9 to 13 and its attack from 8d6 to 32d6.Just curious, why does it increase his attack?
When you increase in size your base damage is also supposed to increase. If the attack counts as a natural weapon first, and a supernatural affect 2nd then it would become more powerful with size.
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Now I'm just curious...
Let's break the witchfire.
We'll give it the giant template 4 times, bringing it from large to colossal in size. That increases its CR from 9 to 13 and its attack from 8d6 to 32d6. Then we'll throw 9 levels of disassociated levels of antipaladin onto it ('cause paladin levels aren't associated with any role) and grab Improved Natural Attack, Vital Strike, Improved Vital Strike, Greater Vital Strike, and Ability Focus (Witchflame). Then we give her a minion that can cast strong jaw.Math courtesy of Aratrok.
8d6->12d6->16d6->24d6->32d6 for colossal.
32d6->48d6 for Imp. Natural Attack
48d6->96d6 for Strong Jaw
96d6->384d6 for Greater Vital StrikeAratrok: "Which is the point where you just dump a bucket full of d6s on someone's head and declare them dead."
But it gets a bit better. See once they've hit someone with their attack, they must make a save (DC = a lot). On a failed will save, the target becomes vulnerable (+50% more damage) to fire due to the witchflame ability.
So if the witchfire hit you on the surprise round AND the opening round, you take 384d6 on the first attack, and the equivalent of 576d6 on the second attack, for a total of 960d6 worth of fire damage in 1.5 rounds. That's an average of 3,360 fire damage.
Applying a template four times, combined with feats and spells from different sources. I'm not saying you're using the rules wrong, but I think this is a case of using the rules in ways they were not intended, rather than the CR of the base monster (or any one of steps) being wrong.
It works on a wraith's attacks which deal negative energy. I don't see why it wouldn't work on a witchfire's.Touch Attacks: Some attacks completely disregard armor, including shields and natural armor—the aggressor need only touch a foe for such an attack to take full effect. In these cases, the attacker makes a touch attack roll (either ranged or melee). When you are the target of a touch attack, your AC doesn't include any armor bonus, shield bonus, or natural armor bonus. All other modifiers, such as your size modifier, Dexterity modifier, and deflection bonus (if any) apply normally. Some creatures have the ability to make incorporeal touch attacks. These attacks bypass solid objects, such as armor and shields, by passing through them. Incorporeal touch attacks work similarly to normal touch attacks except that they also ignore cover bonuses. Incorporeal touch attacks do not ignore armor bonuses granted by force effects, such as mage armor and bracers of armor.Nothing here prevents Vital Strike OR Improved Natural Attack. They just call out a special quality of the attack.I don't think Imp. Natural Attack works on the Witchfire as the touch attacks deal fire damage and aren't natural attacks. If the Witchfire were to somehow get larger, it's 8d6 fire damage wouldn't increase in damage, because it's not dependent on the Witchfire's body.
Doesn't stop it from working with Vital Strike though as Vital Strike works with all weapons. Basically, anything that isn't a spell and has an attack roll with a variable effect can be used with Vital Strike.
Where does it say that? I've never heard of Imp. Natural Attack working on anything other than things like claws, talons, bites etc.
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Applying a template four times, combined with feats and spells from different sources. I'm not saying you're using the rules wrong, but I think this is a case of using the rules in ways they were not intended, rather than the CR of the base monster (or any one of steps) being wrong.Now I'm just curious...
Let's break the witchfire.
We'll give it the giant template 4 times, bringing it from large to colossal in size. That increases its CR from 9 to 13 and its attack from 8d6 to 32d6. Then we'll throw 9 levels of disassociated levels of antipaladin onto it ('cause paladin levels aren't associated with any role) and grab Improved Natural Attack, Vital Strike, Improved Vital Strike, Greater Vital Strike, and Ability Focus (Witchflame). Then we give her a minion that can cast strong jaw.Math courtesy of Aratrok.
8d6->12d6->16d6->24d6->32d6 for colossal.
32d6->48d6 for Imp. Natural Attack
48d6->96d6 for Strong Jaw
96d6->384d6 for Greater Vital StrikeAratrok: "Which is the point where you just dump a bucket full of d6s on someone's head and declare them dead."
But it gets a bit better. See once they've hit someone with their attack, they must make a save (DC = a lot). On a failed will save, the target becomes vulnerable (+50% more damage) to fire due to the witchflame ability.
So if the witchfire hit you on the surprise round AND the opening round, you take 384d6 on the first attack, and the equivalent of 576d6 on the second attack, for a total of 960d6 worth of fire damage in 1.5 rounds. That's an average of 3,360 fire damage.
I can't say the application of the math here is wrong (don't care to check) but this wouldn't be a +4 CR creature - even though that template is being applied 4 times.
Ultimately I would differ to the chart on 291 and see where that damage output fits on that chart to find the new CR (as suggested in the rules on advancing monsters) since those are the guidelines that should be used to see if creatures are at CR baseline values.
Interesting exercise though
Oh yeah, it's not really something reasonable for use in an actual game. But it's an amusing exercise, and demonstrates one of the problems inherent with the Vital Strike line through hyperbole.
Oh yeah, it's not really something reasonable for use in an actual game. But it's an amusing exercise, and demonstrates one of the problems inherent with the Vital Strike line through hyperbole.
You mean Vital Strike sucks unless you've got an obscene amount of damage dice that qualifies? Then it becomes potentially OP to use?
Now I'm just curious...
Let's break the witchfire.
We'll give it the giant template 4 times, bringing it from large to colossal in size. That increases its CR from 9 to 13 and its attack from 8d6 to 32d6. Then we'll throw 9 levels of disassociated levels of antipaladin onto it ('cause paladin levels aren't associated with any role) and grab Improved Natural Attack, Vital Strike, Improved Vital Strike, Greater Vital Strike, and Ability Focus (Witchflame). Then we give her a minion that can cast strong jaw.Math courtesy of Aratrok.
8d6->12d6->16d6->24d6->32d6 for colossal.
32d6->48d6 for Imp. Natural Attack
48d6->96d6 for Strong Jaw
96d6->384d6 for Greater Vital StrikeAratrok: "Which is the point where you just dump a bucket full of d6s on someone's head and declare them dead."
But it gets a bit better. See once they've hit someone with their attack, they must make a save (DC = a lot). On a failed will save, the target becomes vulnerable (+50% more damage) to fire due to the witchflame ability.
So if the witchfire hit you on the surprise round AND the opening round, you take 384d6 on the first attack, and the equivalent of 576d6 on the second attack, for a total of 960d6 worth of fire damage in 1.5 rounds. That's an average of 3,360 fire damage.
Applying a template four times, combined with feats and spells from different sources. I'm not saying you're using the rules wrong, but I think this is a case of using the rules in ways they were not intended, rather than the CR of the base monster (or any one of steps) being wrong.
Oh I think the base creature is pretty ridiculous by itself. I've fought at least one with my psion in Aratrok's Reign of Winter game and these suckers are pretty scary. If it swapped out just one feat for Vital Strike (which it qualifies for) it would be enough to increase its ferocity in the extreme (flyby attack would make it hellish).
The above is merely a thought exercise. I was talking with Aratrok and was like "let's see how high we can get it". He very quickly spit out the math 'cause he's awesome like that, and even remembered to throw in Strong Jaw (which I forgot about honestly as I never use that spell, as I use mostly core stuff when building NPCs).
What's funny though is that technically the giant template makes the creature worse in most regards as it just makes it easier to hit and lowers Dex ferociously, and the witchfire's Strength isn't affected, so really it's just a matter of getting the base damage on its natural attacks up. The antipaladin levels would add another +4, bringing it to a CR 17 and making it somewhat scary (lots of Charisma, amazing saves, good BAB).
Anyway, again, thought exercise. :P
Where does it say that? I've never heard of Imp. Natural Attack working on anything other than things like claws, talons, bites etc.
Improved Natural Attack
Attacks made by one of this creature's natural attacks leave vicious wounds.
Prerequisite: Natural weapon, base attack bonus +4.
Benefit: Choose one of the creature's natural attack forms (not an unarmed strike). The damage for this natural attack increases by one step on the following list, as if the creature's size had increased by one category. Damage dice increase as follows: 1d2, 1d3, 1d4, 1d6, 1d8, 2d6, 3d6, 4d6, 6d6, 8d6, 12d6.A weapon or attack that deals 1d10 points of damage increases as follows: 1d10, 2d8, 3d8, 4d8, 6d8, 8d8, 12d8.
Special: This feat can be taken multiple times. Each time it is taken, it applies to a different natural attack.
Nothing preventing creatures such as wraiths, shadows, witchfires, and creatures with odd sort of natural attacks/weapons from taking it. Works well for them.
Also on the subject of wraiths and such.
WRAITH, you'll notice that wraiths deal negative energy damage and constitution damage with their natural attacks. Increasing the wraith size (such as with the dread wraith) increases both the negative energy damage and the Constitution damage. Excuse me, Constitution drain. Improved Natural Attack and Vital strike works for them too.
Oh yeah, it's not really something reasonable for use in an actual game. But it's an amusing exercise, and demonstrates one of the problems inherent with the Vital Strike line through hyperbole.You mean Vital Strike sucks unless you've got an obscene amount of damage dice that qualifies? Then it becomes potentially OP to use?
Pretty much, yeah. In general I think the witchfire is cool, but I think its natural attack is goofy and perhaps poorly designed. I would have preferred, I think, to see the witchfire deal significantly less damage (say 3d6) and have their witchfire ability cause fire damage to become a stacking DoT.
The thing with the wraith is that the wraith is medium and increases to large, where as the negative energy increases from 1d6 to 3d6. The natural attack progression is 1d6 > 1d8 > 2d6 > 3d6 so to do the same thing with templates on the wraith, you would have to increase the wraith to Gargantuan, something the Dread Wraith very obviously is not.
However, there is some merit to this idea as Lantern Archons increase their light ray from 1d6 > 2d6 by going from small to large using their Gestalt ability.
Increasing the damage of these abilities makes me ask odd questions. Like increasing size via Enlarge Person should, therefore, increase the damage of Channel Energy, or on spells like Shocking Grasp, or the flaming weapon property.
Though, I'm totally down with Clerics enlarging themselves and tossing out better heals.
Best not to think about it too hard. Those are special cases, designed by hand, not generalized precedents.
The wraith gets an extra die when it gets bigger, because the size increase normally comes with a strength bonus that would further increase damage, if it were corporeal. Since it isn't, it gets a similar change via dice.
The lantern archon gestalt gets more dice for a similar reason, though to be honest I'm not sure why that ability exists. If you're using greater planar ally or greater planar binding to get that many lantern archons, there are better things you can bring in.
Vital Strike specifically mentions that it increases weapon damage. I doubt very much that touch attacks count as weapons.
Touch attacks count as armed attacks and receive all of the bonuses to hit/damage from spells like Good Hope, Bardic Performance, etc.
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VS is broken. I've changed it to +BAB regardless of damage dice and got rid of the improved and greater versions.
Slightly more on-topic...the game could have benefited from including CR=1.5 and CR=2.5 creatures. They divide the sub-1 CR monsters into lots of options, but then it's a pretty big jump to CR 2 and 3. CR 2/3 might have been good too, such as for gnolls.
The lantern archon gestalt gets more dice for a similar reason, though to be honest I'm not sure why that ability exists. If you're using greater planar ally or greater planar binding to get that many lantern archons, there are better things you can bring in.
Because sometimes it's funny to summon swarms of mini-tie fighters.
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Weapon attacks (both natural and manufactured) can add str bonuses and have a type (B, S, or P). Touch attacks have neither and thus can't be considered weapons.Vital Strike specifically mentions that it increases weapon damage. I doubt very much that touch attacks count as weapons.Touch attacks count as armed attacks and receive all of the bonuses to hit/damage from spells like Good Hope, Bardic Performance, etc.
Weapon Focus (ray)...
Ray and grapple are specifically called out as exceptions for weapon focus.Weapon Focus (ray)...Weapon attacks (both natural and manufactured) can add str bonuses and have a type (B, S, or P). Touch attacks have neither and thus can't be considered weapons.Vital Strike specifically mentions that it increases weapon damage. I doubt very much that touch attacks count as weapons.Touch attacks count as armed attacks and receive all of the bonuses to hit/damage from spells like Good Hope, Bardic Performance, etc.
Nah, because Ray's are explicitly called out as being weapons.
When you deliver a touch attack it is considered to be an 'armed attack' and receives all of the bonuses on attack rolls your would normally receive on your weapon. So if you had a +5 amulet of mighty fist, you would gain +5 on your attack roll, and if you had Inspire Courage going, you'd receive those bonuses too, same thing with Haste, or Good Hope.
A touch attack is a weapon and can be used with vital strike.
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What type of damage is a ray? Is it a B, P, or S type? The section on weapons seems to imply that all weapons must be one or more of those types.Ray and grapple are specifically called out as exceptions for weapon focus.Weapon Focus (ray)...Weapon attacks (both natural and manufactured) can add str bonuses and have a type (B, S, or P). Touch attacks have neither and thus can't be considered weapons.Vital Strike specifically mentions that it increases weapon damage. I doubt very much that touch attacks count as weapons.Touch attacks count as armed attacks and receive all of the bonuses to hit/damage from spells like Good Hope, Bardic Performance, etc.Nah, because Ray's are explicitly called out as being weapons.
When you deliver a touch attack it is considered to be an 'armed attack' and receives all of the bonuses on attack rolls your would normally receive on your weapon. So if you had a +5 amulet of mighty fist, you would gain +5 on your attack roll, and if you had Inspire Courage going, you'd receive those bonuses too, same thing with Haste, or Good Hope.
A touch attack is a weapon and can be used with vital strike.
What actions can I take after death? What action type is it for me to take a piss? How many of each material component is in a spell casters pouch?
Aiming a Spell scroll down and read the section on Ray and the following FAQs.
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The damage varies depending on the touch attack. In some cases, it is untyped. In others, it is ability damage. In other cases yet still, it is negative energy. In the witchfire's case, the damage is fire. There is nothing that ties bludgeoning, slashing, or piercing damage to being a weapon.
The thing with the wraith is that the wraith is medium and increases to large, where as the negative energy increases from 1d6 to 3d6. The natural attack progression is 1d6 > 1d8 > 2d6 > 3d6 so to do the same thing with templates on the wraith, you would have to increase the wraith to Gargantuan, something the Dread Wraith very obviously is not.
However, there is some merit to this idea as Lantern Archons increase their light ray from 1d6 > 2d6 by going from small to large using their Gestalt ability.
Because you care, here's the relevant stuff. ^_^
A wraith that exists for long enough and feeds on enough life force undergoes an unholy transformation, becoming a creature known as a dread wraith. This causes the wraith to increase in size and strength, and to inflict 2d6 points of negative energy damage and 1d8 Constitution drain with its incorporeal touch. You can create a dread wraith by applying the giant and advanced simple templates, or you can increase the basic wraith to a Large 16 HD undead.
Best not to think about it too hard. Those are special cases, designed by hand, not generalized precedents.
The wraith gets an extra die when it gets bigger, because the size increase normally comes with a strength bonus that would further increase damage, if it were corporeal. Since it isn't, it gets a similar change via dice.
Actually it's not for that reason at all. It's literally just because the size increase. It's the same way in 3.5, see? 3.5 Wraiths.
Giant Creature (+1)
Creatures with the giant template are larger and stronger than their normal-sized kin. This template cannot be applied to creatures that are Colossal.
Quick Rules: +2 to all rolls based on Str or Con, +2 hp/HD, –1 penalty on all rolls based on Dex.
Rebuild Rules: Size increase by one category; AC increase natural armor by +3; Attacks increase dice rolled by 1 step; Ability Scores +4 size bonus to Str and Con, –2 Dex.
Size goes up. Damage goes up. Doesn't matter what the creature's ability scores are, or what the natural attack is. If you take a wolf and make it larger, its bite damage goes up too. If you take a wraith and make it bigger, its negative energy damage goes up, and so forth.
If you take an elemental (see elementals for proof) and increase its size, their slams and fire damage goes up as well with each size increase.
Bigger is better.
Vital Strike specifically mentions that it increases weapon damage. I doubt very much that touch attacks count as weapons.
The combat chapter explains that natural attacks while not made with weapons are weapons themselves.
Natural Attacks: Attacks made with natural weapons, such as claws and bites, are melee attacks that can be made against any creature within your reach (usually 5 feet).
This is why dragons can have Vital Strike feats and actually use them.
Ashiel, I understand size makes damage go up. What Tels pointed out was that the wraith's damage increases faster than size alone should explain. 1d6 (avg 3.5) normally becomes 1d8 (avg 4.5) when going from Medium to Large. The wraith goes to 3d6 instead (avg 10.5).
This makes it an exception, designed by a human designer, as opposed to by consulting a preexisting table.
I suggested a reason for this is to account for not getting the strength bonus that most creatures get when they become large. A creature gets +4 Str if it becomes large via the Giant template, or +8 Str if it goes from medium to large purely from getting more HD (like the dread wraith does.)
That would indicate that a 'typical' medium creature going from 1d6 damage would actually have something more like 1d8 + 2 (avg 6.5) or 1d8 + 4 (avg 8.5) damage at large size.
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So a Dragon, Pit Fiend, or Solar who took greater vital strike could do 80d6 damage plus 4d4 dex drain with a polar ray?
No, because Polar Ray is a spell and takes a standard action to cast, while Vital Strike is it's own, separate, Standard Action.
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Ashiel, I understand size makes damage go up. What Tels pointed out was that the wraith's damage increases faster than size alone should explain. 1d6 (avg 3.5) normally becomes 1d8 (avg 4.5) when going from Medium to Large. The wraith goes to 3d6 instead (avg 10.5).
This makes it an exception, designed by a human designer, as opposed to by consulting a preexisting table.
I suggested a reason for this is to account for not getting the strength bonus that most creatures get when they become large. A creature gets +4 Str if it becomes large via the Giant template, or +8 Str if it goes from medium to large purely from getting more HD (like the dread wraith does.)
That would indicate that a 'typical' medium creature going from 1d6 damage would actually have something more like 1d8 + 2 (avg 6.5) or 1d8 + 4 (avg 8.5) damage at large size.
Ohhhh. I gotcha. I see what you're sayin' now. Yikes, yeah. For some reason I thought he was saying it was going from 1d8 to 3d6, and I was confused 'cause I was like "it's definitely saying it's only going to 2d6" in my head, but I just noticed that it's listed as 1d6 base instead of 1d8 (for some reason I was thinking it was 1d8 / 1d6 and went to 2d6 / 1d8).
Very interesting. So wraiths increase their negative energy damage twice when they go up a size. Very interesting indeed. It'd be nice if the designer actually tacked on an ability that explains such. This IS an exception-based system and it'd make it tons more user friendly if people didn't do stuff like that without note. >_>
Kind of like how the T-Rex has its powerful bite explaining that they add x2 Str instead of x1.5, because the T-Rex's bite goes beyond the normal rules for how damage works. It'd be peachy keen if the same sort of care was taken with stuff like this. >_>
Ashiel, I understand size makes damage go up. What Tels pointed out was that the wraith's damage increases faster than size alone should explain. 1d6 (avg 3.5) normally becomes 1d8 (avg 4.5) when going from Medium to Large. The wraith goes to 3d6 instead (avg 10.5).
This makes it an exception, designed by a human designer, as opposed to by consulting a preexisting table.
I suggested a reason for this is to account for not getting the strength bonus that most creatures get when they become large. A creature gets +4 Str if it becomes large via the Giant template, or +8 Str if it goes from medium to large purely from getting more HD (like the dread wraith does.)
That would indicate that a 'typical' medium creature going from 1d6 damage would actually have something more like 1d8 + 2 (avg 6.5) or 1d8 + 4 (avg 8.5) damage at large size.
Ohhhh. I gotcha. I see what you're sayin' now. Yikes, yeah. For some reason I thought he was saying it was going from 1d8 to 3d6, and I was confused 'cause I was like "it's definitely saying it's only going to 2d6" in my head, but I just noticed that it's listed as 1d6 base instead of 1d8 (for some reason I was thinking it was 1d8 / 1d6 and went to 2d6 / 1d8).
Very interesting. So wraiths increase their negative energy damage twice when they go up a size. Very interesting indeed. It'd be nice if the designer actually tacked on an ability that explains such. This IS an exception-based system and it'd make it tons more user friendly if people didn't do stuff like that without note. >_>
Kind of like how the T-Rex has its powerful bite explaining that they add x2 Str instead of x1.5, because the T-Rex's bite goes beyond the normal rules for how damage works. It'd be peachy keen if the same sort of care was taken with stuff like this. >_>
It actually goes up 3 times, from 1d6 to 3d6, skipping the 1d8 and 2d6 steps.
If one were to take an actual wraith and apply the giant sized template (assuming size affects the touch damage), it would, following the normal progression, only deal 1d8 points of damage on a touch, rather than 3d6.
So the Dread Wraith is attacking as if though it had increase to Gargantuan size, rather than just Large.
Okay, I'm confused again. Where's the 3d6 coming from?
A wraith that exists for long enough and feeds on enough life force undergoes an unholy transformation, becoming a creature known as a dread wraith. This causes the wraith to increase in size and strength, and to inflict 2d6 points of negative energy damage and 1d8 Constitution drain with its incorporeal touch. You can create a dread wraith by applying the giant and advanced simple templates, or you can increase the basic wraith to a Large 16 HD undead.
Um... *headtilts confused* (~_O)
The way I see it, it's just a different monster with different damage. *shrug*
Okay, I'm confused again. Where's the 3d6 coming from?
A wraith that exists for long enough and feeds on enough life force undergoes an unholy transformation, becoming a creature known as a dread wraith. This causes the wraith to increase in size and strength, and to inflict 2d6 points of negative energy damage and 1d8 Constitution drain with its incorporeal touch. You can create a dread wraith by applying the giant and advanced simple templates, or you can increase the basic wraith to a Large 16 HD undead.Um... *headtilts confused* (~_O)
I see where the confusion is. Paizo went and published a Dread Wraith that deals 3d6 damage in the Witchwar Legacy, which is what I was looking at.
The ones from the Witchwar Legacy are Wraiths that have been advanced to 16 HD as opposed to just applying the Giant/Advanced templates.
They can cast an intensified, empowered, and quickened shocking grasp and attack in the same round for 60d6 damage.So a Dragon, Pit Fiend, or Solar who took greater vital strike could do 80d6 damage plus 4d4 dex drain with a polar ray?No, because Polar Ray is a spell and takes a standard action to cast, while Vital Strike is it's own, separate, Standard Action.
Spell damage does not increase when you increase in size. They also cannot be used with Vital Strike.
Natural weapons do, and can.
The current debate, as far as I can tell, is where special touch attacks fall on that spectrum: they're kind of natural weapons and kind of just Special Attacks. It can have dramatic impact on creatures that have touch attacks and take the Vital Strike feat(s), or that change size somehow, or take Improved Natural Attack (because it is like changing size).
My position, as always, is that the game 'engine' (so to speak) is designed around small groups of Medium humanoids hitting each other with swords and axes, and the further away you get from that assumption the more weirdness you will encounter.
So when you get monsters (mostly incorporeal undead) that have touch attacks with large numbers of dice (because they don't have a strength bonus) and apply Vital Strike, you get significantly different result that if you apply the same rules to a creature that uses smaller/fewer dice plus a static strength bonus (that is not multiplied on a Vital Strike). The same problem doesn't apply to PCs because their touch attacks are part of spells or class features that don't work with Vital Strike.
I consider that less a design flaw and more a (relatively) unavoidable side effect of the system. Like distortions around the poles on two-dimensional maps.
Maybe we should turn our attention back toward monsters that, as run from the Bestiary, are over- or under-powered for their CR, or perform oddly when above or below APL for some reason.
They can cast an intensified, empowered, and quickened shocking grasp and attack in the same round for 60d6 damage.So a Dragon, Pit Fiend, or Solar who took greater vital strike could do 80d6 damage plus 4d4 dex drain with a polar ray?No, because Polar Ray is a spell and takes a standard action to cast, while Vital Strike is it's own, separate, Standard Action.
Vital Strike is it's own unique special Standard Action. You cannot combine Vital Strike with casting a spell, so you cannot Vital Strike the spell.
If one were to take an actual wraith and apply the giant sized template (assuming size affects touch damage), it would, following the normal progression, only deal 1d8 points of damage on a touch...
But it makes sense you would want to compensate for the fact that they don't get the full mileage out of the advanced simple template right?
I mean the template is there for convenience, but the goal is to end up with an appropriately CR'd monster after you apply it.
If the effectiveness isn't going up as much as it should for the added CR cost it makes sense to bring it back in line.
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The spell is quickened and once the swift action is done, the spell is gone and can no longer be vital striked.
Otherwise you could do something weird like cast Greater Magic Weapon on a Scorching Ray because a Ray is a weapon and receives benefits from spells and effects that target weapons.