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I can't speak to the design threads -- I normally stay out of them, and obviously I can't speak to what paradigms anyone else is familiar with.
But I think that for the most part, as long as you stick to criticizing design elements, and stay away from imputing motives to designers (or anyone, really) or attacking them ("I think Design Decision B was a mistake because of Reasons X, Y, and Z" as opposed to "The designers are incompetent because they made Design Decision B") you're more likely to come across as constructive.
EDIT: Ninjaed by Liz.
It's one thing to say, "I really dislike how this class ability plays out in game, the math seems off and doesn't bear up during actual play" and another thing entirely to say, "Whoever wrote this is an awful person who should go kill themselves because clearly they don't know what they're doing."
Yes. And even better than "I really dislike how this class ability plays out in game, the math seems off and doesn't bear up during actual play" is "...and here's how I would fix it."
Hmm, actually what Paizo could likely do is just recall all the posters who said something like "good riddance to bad trash" in SKR's Goodbye thread, and ban them... ;-)
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EDIT: Ninjaed by Liz.
This thing...I do this thing. :D
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I don't know of any posters who fit this description. The people I know who hate paizo/pathfinder do not come to these forums
You are a controversial poster, as am I to a lesser extent. The Paizo haters, the one who come here to constantly knock Paizo, who complain constantly, post personal insults, most of whom don't even play Pathfinder, etc, would love a system where if they reported enuf of a poster's post that poster would get get banned. That would leave the trolls in charge. Sean- you'd be banned if you weren't Sean. ;-)
I can point you to at least one "I'm here to enact my revenge on Monte Cook and SKR for destroying the True D&D and killing Gary Gygax" person and to one "I actually used to like Paizo products, but then they shoved LGBT propaganda down my throat so now I'm on a crusade to destroy them" person.
And several of the posters who complain a lot have stated they either play 3.5 or such a heavily house ruled version of PF that it's no longer PF.
Not that there's anything wrong with either, mind you. I still have one 3.5 game, and every game has some amount of house rules. Just that when you state that "class xx is broken" and you don't play class XX, have never seen it played for any significant period, and are basing your opinion of broken-ness purely on knee-jerk or theory crafting as opposed to IRL gaming, then there's not much value to your opinion.
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And several of the posters who complain a lot have stated they either play 3.5 or such a heavily house ruled version of PF that it's no longer PF.
Not that there's anything wrong with either, mind you. I still have one 3.5 game, and every game has some amount of house rules. Just that when you state that "class xx is broken" and you don't play class XX, have never seen it played for any significant period, and are basing your opinion of broken-ness purely on knee-jerk or theory crafting as opposed to IRL gaming, then there's not much value to your opinion.
I'm not trying to pick a fight; can I single this out as an example of likely unintentional, yet insulting behavior? The debate on the worthy of 'theory crafting' (I am annoyed by that term, though I have no actual rational objection to it) perhaps deserves to be had. However, every time it gets brought up statements like the bolded occur, which makes it difficult to feel like a rational discussion is going on.
Y'know?
And several of the posters who complain a lot have stated they either play 3.5 or such a heavily house ruled version of PF that it's no longer PF.
Not that there's anything wrong with either, mind you. I still have one 3.5 game, and every game has some amount of house rules. Just that when you state that "class xx is broken" and you don't play class XX, have never seen it played for any significant period, and are basing your opinion of broken-ness purely on knee-jerk or theory crafting as opposed to IRL gaming, then there's not much value to your opinion.
I'm not trying to pick a fight; can I single this out as an example of likely unintentional, yet insulting behavior? The debate on the worthy of 'theory crafting' (I am annoyed by that term, though I have no actual rational objection to it) perhaps deserves to be had. However, every time it gets brought up statements like the bolded occur, which makes it difficult to feel like a rational discussion is going on.
Y'know?
Theorycrafting is a very valuable tool. It can "torture test" some concepts, etc. I am not in any way saying people should not post theorycrafting.
BUT it's one thing to say "In theory, when you run the numbers, the xxx class fall behind" or "If you do this one trick pony build, it completely breaks xxxx". That's fine, that indicates that you know full well that what you're talking about is theory crafting.
However, it's then another to apply this theory to how the games are really played IRL and make blanket statements like "The XXX is broken".
Just because theory crafting shows that "xxx CAN be broken" does not mean "xxx *IS* broken".
So, theory crafting is a valuable tool. But like any tool, it's not always the RIGHT tool.
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And several of the posters who complain a lot have stated they either play 3.5 or such a heavily house ruled version of PF that it's no longer PF.
Not that there's anything wrong with either, mind you. I still have one 3.5 game, and every game has some amount of house rules. Just that when you state that "class xx is broken" and you don't play class XX, have never seen it played for any significant period, and are basing your opinion of broken-ness purely on knee-jerk or theory crafting as opposed to IRL gaming, then there's not much value to your opinion.
I'm not trying to pick a fight; can I single this out as an example of likely unintentional, yet insulting behavior? The debate on the worthy of 'theory crafting' (I am annoyed by that term, though I have no actual rational objection to it) perhaps deserves to be had. However, every time it gets brought up statements like the bolded occur, which makes it difficult to feel like a rational discussion is going on.
Y'know?
Theorycrafting is a very valuable tool. It can "torture test" some concepts, etc. I am not in any way saying people should not post theorycrafting.
BUT it's one thing to say "In theory, when you run the numbers, the xxx class fall behind" or "If you do this one trick pony build, it completely breaks xxxx". That's fine, that indicates that you know full well that what you're talking about is theory crafting.
However, it's then another to apply this theory to how the games are really played IRL and make blanket statements like "The XXX is broken".
Just because theory crafting shows that "xxx CAN be broken" does not mean "xxx *IS* broken".
So, theory crafting is a valuable tool. But like any tool, it's not always the RIGHT tool.
I think this is less true today than 5 years ago. The ruleset is mature and many folks have a great deal of experience running games and can predict and understand how a particular rule or option would interact with the existing system. I feel that at this point in the life-cycle of the game that "theory crafting" is actually more useful than play testing in a limited time frame (ie. less than 2 months)
Additionally, "theory crafting" has a very important place in comparing and understanding actual playtest results. When play testing reports issues with something (even something established, ie. the rogue) then "theory crafting" is often the best tool to determine what went wrong and how to fix it.
P.o.K, DrDeth, you're making good points but it's in danger of drifting us away from the principle topic of bringing about a better-behaved forum.
I do have one question; if controlling or rebuking posters who violate the rules regularly is impractical, is there any way to encourage posters who practice self-regulated discipline on the boards? Carrot instead of stick?
I was attempting to bring attention to the tone in which the opinion was expressed; note the difference between Deth's first and second posts on the subject? The second, while containing much I can disagree with, was delivered rationally, in the spirit of debate. That's the sort of thing I'd like to encourage.
Even something as simple as saying, "This seems misinformed," instead of, "This opinion has no value," can go a long way.
Not that my high horse is very high. I'm still struggling to learn professional diction & etiquette. I sorta found myself drop-kicked into the industry overnight.
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Honestly, I don't think some people realize how good they've go it. Every so often, there's a thread I want to walk away from. For the most part, though, this a high signal-to-noise ratio board. The people here are mostly friendly, helpful, and enlightened. The moderation has a generally light touch, but moderators aren't afraid to step in when needed. The different categories are consistent and well-defined. Discussions run their course. For good or bad, it's the community who make the discussion, and that's how it should be. There are things that could possibly use some improvement, but I wouldn't change too much.
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One thing I've noticed, whether intentional or not, is a poster can be insulting to one side of an argument or type of player or some other general group without reprimand but responding to that poster (even just to point out their behavior) gets acted upon very quickly. I understand not wanting personal attacks in the forum but it seems fairly easy to disguise such as a more general attack. (For example, a "monk hate" thread where one person is "defending" monks and other posters saying anyone who "likes monks" are idiots who clearly don't know how the game/life in general works.)
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One thing I've noticed, whether intentional or not, is a poster can be insulting to one side of an argument or type of player or some other general group without reprimand but responding to that poster (even just to point out their behavior) gets acted upon very quickly. I understand not wanting personal attacks in the forum but it seems fairly easy to disguise such as a more general attack. (For example, a "monk hate" thread where one person is "defending" monks and other posters saying anyone who "likes monks" are idiots who clearly don't know how the game/life in general works.)
Agreed. Freqquently the guy being a douche manages to skim the threshold of breaking the rules, while the person he needles into finally saying "Dude, stop being a douche" is the one whose post is wiped. "Needling" is definitely a thing that there should be rules against (as I mentioned earlier).
If someone taunts a bull until it finally charges and breaks the fence, the problem isn't a mad bull, it's the idiot who goes around provoking bulls. You don't fix it by making hamburger, you fix it by booting Johnny-bull-goader out of town.
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And several of the posters who complain a lot have stated they either play 3.5 or such a heavily house ruled version of PF that it's no longer PF.
Not that there's anything wrong with either, mind you. I still have one 3.5 game, and every game has some amount of house rules. Just that when you state that "class xx is broken" and you don't play class XX, have never seen it played for any significant period, and are basing your opinion of broken-ness purely on knee-jerk or theory crafting as opposed to IRL gaming, then there's not much value to your opinion.
I'm not trying to pick a fight; can I single this out as an example of likely unintentional, yet insulting behavior? The debate on the worthy of 'theory crafting' (I am annoyed by that term, though I have no actual rational objection to it) perhaps deserves to be had. However, every time it gets brought up statements like the bolded occur, which makes it difficult to feel like a rational discussion is going on.
Y'know?
Theorycrafting is a very valuable tool. It can "torture test" some concepts, etc. I am not in any way saying people should not post theorycrafting.
BUT it's one thing to say "In theory, when you run the numbers, the xxx class fall behind" or "If you do this one trick pony build, it completely breaks xxxx". That's fine, that indicates that you know full well that what you're talking about is theory crafting.
However, it's then another to apply this theory to how the games are really played IRL and make blanket statements like "The XXX is broken".
Just because theory crafting shows that "xxx CAN be broken" does not mean "xxx *IS* broken".
So, theory crafting is a valuable tool. But like any tool, it's not always the RIGHT tool.
I think what he's trying to say is that there is a bad habit among some people on these forums to see something shown as strong in theory in a specific circumstance and have people just apply it to every other instance of that something showing up (classes, feats, items, etc.) without either testing it themselves or even crafting anything. Basically they treat saying the theory as presenting a holy symbol against vampires, that it always wins and is without counter.
Good example is the Schrodinger's Wizard argument that constantly bubbles up and is used as the crutch of most of the arguments we see here (and a lot of the vitrol) but at the same time has very few people espousing it who also back up their belief.
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I am not exactly seeing an increase in "nastiness".
I know that, for me, most posts that upset me, can be made less offensive, by simply remembering that tone is difficult to display in text format.
I also know, that we as humans, have a base negative bias, when reading text.
Some are easily recognized as "troll" posts, but others, are not so easily so.
I have seen many times, when I have been offended, or I have offended others, or others have offended each other, and it is all due to a miscommunication.
Indeed, I have occasionally forgotten, but reminding myself that what seems to be an insulting post, could be just a matter of miscommunication, has ultimately improved my personal messageboard experience.
In the end, I am trying to say, that before you decide a post is offensive, or full on ban anyone, be sure that there wasn't just something lost in translation.
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I think that the Paizo forum is actually quite vitriol light (although things have gotten worse lately), especially when i remember other forum (i still get dread memories from white wolf's exalted forum).
That said i also think that things can be improved, the first thing i think would be good is that the mod posts should change color. Instead of that light, faded blue characters used in their posts, strong red (using slightly larger font) would be better.
I also think that it should be more precise reasonings (and notification) when posts are getting deleted, in addition i will agree with others saying that instead of deleting a post, it would be better if the content of the post was replaced with something like "this post was removed because X", that way we can all see whose posters' posts are regularly removed and why.
In conclusion i think that there should be more punishes, especially temporary bans*.
*except posts in the customer service section of the board
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I just wanted to say I saw this in another thread recently:
And I think its so much better than the normal responce for removing posts. Thank you for listening. :)
:-/ the problem is that the hostile post which started that chain is still there. The advice given in this post by Liz applies directly to that post as well. This is a prime example of what has been discussed in this thread, that someone who doesn't like the topic is thread stalking, not offering any helpful comments, and attacking other posters. Then when they get called out on it, the person who confronts them gets their post removed and the instigator's posts remain.
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Well, if you want a better board, you need better posters. And sometimes that means ignoring something that is worth ignoring.
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Just this week there was a thread I stayed out of for nearly 48 hours, specifically because I found someone's response to a post of mine so condescending that I would have gone after them with a hammer if they'd said it to my face, and that's not a great state of mind to post in.
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I just wanted to say I saw this in another thread recently:
And I think its so much better than the normal responce for removing posts. Thank you for listening. :)
I believe that was in response to a certain former developer's comments.
Some people are just the exception to the rule.
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Get ignore function, use ignore function, blood pressure drops, less mod time wasted.
Many years ago on another forum, there was a time that I thought "ignore" was a childish thing to do, but I finally used it on one person and the difference in my forum-reading experience was staggering.
Get ignore function, use ignore function, blood pressure drops, less mod time wasted.Many years ago on another forum, there was a time that I thought "ignore" was a childish thing to do, but I finally used it on one person and the difference in my forum-reading experience was staggering.
"Why do you keep banging your head against that wall?"
"Cause it feels so good when I finally stop!"
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I believe that was in response to a certain former developer's comments.
Some people are just the exception to the rule.
It was not, and nobody's an exception to Rule Zero.
I can't speak to moderation policy; I don't feel right commenting on it when I am not certain my own actions have been in the clear.
I can speak to my own actions. And I would actually appreciate it if people would send me PMs telling me I am a problem and how. That, and that alone, would help with my end and any problems I'm causing.
I can't speak to moderation policy; I don't feel right commenting on it when I am not certain my own actions have been in the clear.
I can speak to my own actions. And I would actually appreciate it if people would send me PMs telling me I am a problem and how. That, and that alone, would help with my end and any problems I'm causing.
I can understand not wanting to put the workload of writing those PMs onto the mods, but even an automated PM fired off when modding the post with a message from a drop-down list of reasons would probably be a big help.
Ok, Chris, how about this? A assistant Mod, who can only delete and ban Spammers. This could even be given to a volunteer.
Just taking that off your plate would help.
Also, really, I know that some of the FAQ's on the more outré stuff are seen as "not necessary " due to the fact that no sane person plays it that way. Like, for instance, the "Sno-cone Wish machine". But these crazy things are constantly being thrown into debates.
It'd be easy for the Design team to knock a number of those out. A small change in the wording os Simulacrum and even Teleport, a tiny fix for Blood Money, etc.
Nor would these quick fixes lead to a backlash as other more controversial FAQ's have done.
PS- Great work!
Yes, please, anything to cut down on the amount of spam that pops up in the evenings. You'll be reading nicely along, refresh the forum, and suddenly there will be 10 new posts...all spam with the real posts halfway down the page already.
If you can't tell WHY a post was removed, you can't avoid doing it in the future. I've had posts removed that I still to this day can't figure out why they were removed and following the suggestion to email the webmaster is, inevitably, met with silence. For ANY reason, be it asking about a moderating policy or requesting that a game I had taken over from another poster be swapped over to my control.
I can understand not wanting to put the workload of writing those PMs onto the mods, but even an automated PM fired off when modding the post with a message from a drop-down list of reasons would probably be a big help.I can't speak to moderation policy; I don't feel right commenting on it when I am not certain my own actions have been in the clear.
I can speak to my own actions. And I would actually appreciate it if people would send me PMs telling me I am a problem and how. That, and that alone, would help with my end and any problems I'm causing.
This also is awesome. I can understand why they might not want to do it, as giving reasons may bring up more traffic to the moderators...but at the same time, it's VERY hard not to repeat mistakes if you have no idea what the mistake was in the first place.
Maybe instead of a total deletion of the post, a placeholder which deletes the post itself, but leaves a reason why the post was deleted?
I like the idea of the automated PM with the drop down list as well. Just let people know what they did so they can avoid making the same mistake in the future?
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Been posting here a while (When Savage Tide came out) I came to the site because I wanted to find the the talented people that created such an engaging adventure. Through the community we added two posters from the forums to our gaming group and I can remember when the Gninja was Lilith the super fan, who (with a lot of others) helped shape a very cool community.
The success of Paizo (not a bad thing) has brought so many more people and now it is a very large multinational community, and that familiarity and understanding of others that comes with a smaller community can't exist with the numbers.
I miss the old days but I am very happy for Paizos success.
I do want to thank Chris for that sticky in the Advice forum. Much needed.
I was getting so tired of: OP " New player here, I want to play a rogue in my first campaign, any ideas?" Jerk reply: Rouges are teh suxxor, Paizo hates them, DONT!!!".
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Been posting here a while (When Savage Tide came out) I came to the site because I wanted to find the the talented people that created such an engaging adventure. Through the community we added two posters from the forums to our gaming group and I can remember when the Gninja was Lilith the super fan, who (with a lot of others) helped shape a very cool community.
The success of Paizo (not a bad thing) has brought so many more people and now it is a very large multinational community, and that familiarity and understanding of others that comes with a smaller community can't exist with the numbers.
I miss the old days but I am very happy for Paizos success.
I too remember the "good old days" of the boards. But I think that because we have grown is not an excuse to lament what was—this is an opportunity to treat new members of the community with that same understanding and friendliness that brought and kept people to the boards in the first place, and make us stronger than ever. Lead by example, encourage discussion without being dismissive or intolerant, remember that we are here because we love to game and have fun, and flag it and move on for those that cannot do these things.
We are only as strong or as weak as our community, something that I am even more keenly aware of as I moved from "super fan" to "employee." It is up to us, whether we are Paizo staff, contributors, subscribers, not-subscribers, players, game masters, observers, rollplayers, roleplayers—all of us—to encourage the behavior we want to see. Some days it is easy, others less so. But I think we can do it.
Now sit down, have some cookies, roll some dice, and have fun. :)
I never got any cookies... =(
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Now sit down, have some cookies, roll some dice, and have fun. :)*has fingers crossed for getting Liz's table at PaizoCon again*
I have such sights to show you.
I never got any cookies... =(
YAYYYYY!!! =)
*jumps up and down with joy*
I never got any cookies... =(
Sadly they've never followed up my suggestion that they should replace the styrofoam chips with cookie-crumbs in international packages.
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Hi! I have been posting on the paizo forums for a few years now, and while it has its ups and downs, it is mostly ok.
My problem right now is the rules forum. There is a chilling effect in my opinion for people who post there, and there is a very toxic discourse happening daily. A growing number of people are being very insulting when basic questions are asked, or when there is disagreement on what rules mean.
For example:
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2qxt5?Shield-MasterOne-Thread-to-Rule-Them-All# 44
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2qxt5&page=2?Shield-MasterOne-Thread-to-Rul e-Them-All#60
These are just recent, there are more and it has been going on for some time.
I am pleading with the community team, please post community guidelines for all of us to follow, it is obvious to me that currently the situation is a disaster. The chilling effect has been driving posters away, and I can't imagine a new player coming to the forums now to ask a question, or even reading through through the general discussion forums.
The amount of vitriol is too much! Please, please, make a change!
For what it's worth, I'm the author of the second post, and I don't consider it insulting to any person. I did insult the question itself--a question not made in earnest and with no possibility of constructive conversation--and I have no remorse for that.
If that's considered vitriol, well, I'll be the "grow a thicker skin" guy.
Yeah, I agree, you were sarcastic but hardly insulting.
(This is in reply to Blahpers)
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Hi! I have been posting on the paizo forums for a few years now, and while it has its ups and downs, it is mostly ok.
My problem right now is the rules forum. There is a chilling effect in my opinion for people who post there, and there is a very toxic discourse happening daily. A growing number of people are being very insulting when basic questions are asked, or when there is disagreement on what rules mean.
For example:
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2qxt5?Shield-MasterOne-Thread-to-Rule-Them-All# 44
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2qxt5&page=2?Shield-MasterOne-Thread-to-Rul e-Them-All#60
These are just recent, there are more and it has been going on for some time.
I am pleading with the community team, please post community guidelines for all of us to follow, it is obvious to me that currently the situation is a disaster. The chilling effect has been driving posters away, and I can't imagine a new player coming to the forums now to ask a question, or even reading through through the general discussion forums.
The amount of vitriol is too much! Please, please, make a change!
For what it's worth, I'm the author of the second post, and I don't consider it insulting to any person. I did insult the question itself--a question not made in earnest and with no possibility of constructive conversation--and I have no remorse for that.
If that's considered vitriol, well, I'll be the "grow a thicker skin" guy.
There is a copious use of 2nd person pronouns in that post. That makes it very difficult to claim you weren't insulting a person. Unless you talk to questions in 2nd person...
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Hence why the "don't be a jerk" rule doesn't work very often. The people pulling this don't believe they're being jerks.
Exactly. "Jerk" can be pretty subjective.
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Been posting here a while (When Savage Tide came out) I came to the site because I wanted to find the the talented people that created such an engaging adventure. Through the community we added two posters from the forums to our gaming group and I can remember when the Gninja was Lilith the super fan, who (with a lot of others) helped shape a very cool community.
The success of Paizo (not a bad thing) has brought so many more people and now it is a very large multinational community, and that familiarity and understanding of others that comes with a smaller community can't exist with the numbers.
I miss the old days but I am very happy for Paizos success.
I too remember the "good old days" of the boards. But I think that because we have grown is not an excuse to lament what was—this is an opportunity to treat new members of the community with that same understanding and friendliness that brought and kept people to the boards in the first place, and make us stronger than ever. Lead by example, encourage discussion without being dismissive or intolerant, remember that we are here because we love to game and have fun, and flag it and move on for those that cannot do these things.
We are only as strong or as weak as our community, something that I am even more keenly aware of as I moved from "super fan" to "employee." It is up to us, whether we are Paizo staff, contributors, subscribers, not-subscribers, players, game masters, observers, rollplayers, roleplayers—all of us—to encourage the behavior we want to see. Some days it is easy, others less so. But I think we can do it.
Now sit down, have some cookies, roll some dice, and have fun. :)
You are right, I have been trying to think of times of when the community is at its best, and those are when it has a chance to be creative and give something back or when supporting a charity.
It's probably a lot of extra work but maybe once a month a Dev or Writer could throw out a just for fun challenge... Create a room, NPC, house rule, challenge, or a bit of flavour, that could be used as a resource by players and GMs. It doesn't need to be judged or critiqued by staff and the rest of us could just like the post in the thread.
As for ongoing support of a charity - that is beyond my knowledge and lots of people would have many different preferences for where the money went.
I did think about suggesting board a Venture Captain what they would do I am not sure.
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Hence why the "don't be a jerk" rule doesn't work very often. The people pulling this don't believe they're being jerks.Exactly. "Jerk" can be pretty subjective.
For what its worth, I've seen plenty of forums destroyed by strict and awful moderation, or in the least chase off a lot of good people, and I've seen a change in moderation break a forum too. That goes for moderators who take a judge dredd course and try to eliminate anything and everything resembling a rule violation, and for moderators who twist a vague rule so everyone is breaking it. On the other hand, I've seen a lack of moderation break things when the same person does damage again, and again, and again, and that can be exacerbated by other people joining in and people who would otherwise be perfectly fine contributors leaving over it. Moderation is best done in moderation.
Would I type that out for that last statement? Definite Maybe...
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Moderation is best done in moderation.
Take your crazy talk elsewhere!
Moderate and tolerate, don't terminate and haterate.
Or neglect... -ate?, or excuse-ate.
Moderate and tolerate, don't terminate and haterate.
Or neglect... -ate?, or excuse-ate.
Don't drink the hatorade.