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I really appreciate all the help you guys have given me. I'm going to roll with a human with Dual Talent though because Musetouched is a TON of cheese for someone starting out. It's not the most optimal to go with human, but the build is waaaaay better than what I was going to do, so that's alright.
Always happy to be of assistance. :)
And yeah, Dual Talented Human should work fine.
And I don't plan on using anything other than a Scimitar so Dawnflower Dervish is perfect.
Cool, then. :)
As a side note, out of curiosity, why would a Chelish Diva go with heavy armor? Wouldn't the AFC make it a bad choice? I tried searching for Chelish Diva but only Diva came up, then I figured out Chelish = Cheliax, but why does it matter that you specify that the person is from Cheliax? I couldn't find any bonuses for it, unless it's just for flavor. Even the Arcane Armor feat doesn't totally eliminate the failure chance, and it's not a constant thing.
The Archetype is, in the official Pathfinder rules, called Chelish Diva. It's called just Diva on d20pfsrd because they actually advertise and sell non-Paizo products, and thus aren't allowed to use Paizo's intellectual property...like the term Chelish. Actually being from Cheliax is optional, you're just trained in that particular musical/bardic style.
And as for why it's good for armor, look at the link above and scroll down to 'Costume Proficiency'. At 5th level the archetype lets you wear Medium Armor without spell failure, and at 11th it allows Heavy. It's nice.
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Some other assorted Bard advice (some reiterated from earlier in the thread):
Grab Perform (Oratory or Sing) as your first Versatile Performance. Dance is tempting, from a theme standpoint, and worth putting points into for theme (and Pageant of the Peacock, see below) but not a good choice for your first Versatile Performance.
Take the Masterpiece Pageant of the Peacock with one of your 2nd level spell slots. It requires 4 ranks of Perform (Dance or Act) so take one of those to 4 ranks by 5th level at the latest. It's just amazing, you want it.
The Human Favored Class bonus for Bards gives extra spells known, as long as they aren't the highest level spell you can cast. This makes it usually not worth it for levels 1-3 (though extra 0-level spells can be handy...), and fabulous thereafter. At level 4+ I'd never take the HP or skill point.
Some recommended Bard spells (in no particular order):
0th: Detect Magic, Light (or Dancing Lights), Mage Hand, Mending, Prestidigitation,
1st: Charm Person, Grease, Sleep (at low levels only, retrain it out later), Timely Inspiration, Unnatural Lust, Hideous Laughter, Cure Light Wounds
2nd: Mirror Image (Best defensive spell in the game), Glitterdust, Hold Person, Invisibility, Silence, Suggestion, Tongues, Unadulterated Loathing,
3rd: Haste, Glibness (Combine with Pageant of the Peacock for hilarity), Good Hope (Bard only buff, fabulous), Confusion (great area effect), Charm Monster, Dispel Magic, Terrible Remorse,
4th: Dimension Door, Dominate Person, Freedom of Movement, Hold Monster, Greater Invisibility, Dance of 100 Cuts,
5th: Bard's Escape, Greater Dispel Magic, Phantasmal Web, Song of Discord, Vengeful Outrage, Mass Suggestion,
6th: Dance of a Thousand Cuts, Overwhelming Presence, Waves of Ecstasy, Mass Charm Monster, Getaway, Geas/Quest, Irresistible Dance,
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EDIT: For Battle Dance, if I pick up Virtuoso Performance, can I have two performances going still? And if I pick up Extended Performance, can I have three active for two rounds? Jesus that would be awesomely overpower with twice the buff.
Virtuoso Performance works, but Lingering Performance explicitly doesn't. However, there's another spell (Shadowbard) that also allows a Performance. Using both spells, you could indeed have thre performances going.
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I've read that Prestidigitation can be subbed for Mage Hand and is actually recommended over it. Is there a reason to have both besides throwing something 15'?
Mage Hand can lift and move objects at four or five times the range, and up to 5 pounds, rather than one pound at only 10 ft. range. I just lie having both. :)
And this group only plays til level 12, so I can't use anything past Caster Level 4, which makes me sad because then I can't use Shadowbard which would make for an amazing combat bard.
Ah, gotcha.
Masterpiece of the Peacock and Glibness are the EXACT kind of out-of-combat things I want. Deadly in combat, super charming outside of it. Originally I wanted the character that could steal a bankers gold and wife and leave him dying in his own blood thinking "I liked that guy. What a nice fellow. He should stop by more often." Not that I would do it, but I want the option to. As a Dawnflower though I have some rules I've got to abide by.
Glibness + Pageant of the Peacock does indeed allow pretty much all of that, plus winning at all Knowledge skill checks. And what rules specifically?
Speaking of the Dawnflower rules, how exactly do I worship dawn and the dawn goddess? Just make a mention of it every once and a while, or spare a human enemy if they promise to convert or something? I'll just be super sure not to say Dusk is my favorite time.
Here's Sarenrae's deity description. Worshiping her is really pretty straightforward. She's basically just plain nice, and all about redemption...right up until someone goes too far, and then there's the whole 'cleansing fire' thing.
Chelish Diva also seems pretty cool, more like a tank bard with that heavy armor, but I like the one you set up for me better.
Yeah, it's solid but wouldn't be my preferred build either.
There are just so many options now with the build! Casting AND melee? Set up the way I wanted it to be? Can't wait for Thursday now.
I'm very glad you like it. :)
A control bard thread with no mention of the thundercaller? Shame. A musetouched aasimar pumping thunder call with their favored class bonus has surprising decent damage scaling, and once you can use it twice a round or three times a round at 7th and 13th, even a fortitude save that's stuck as a second level spell can be great group control when they have to make multiple saves.
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I supplemented my controller bard with a few levels of Lore Warden, and also got the Net Adept and Net Maneuvers feats. That allowed me some of the versatility usually associated with a whip (Disarm and Trip, for instance) while letting me maintain reach and still utilize dazzling display and entangle. It was enjoyable, but we stopped at level 6 so I'm not able to speak about how effective it was going forward.
Some other assorted Bard advice (some reiterated from earlier in the thread):
Grab Perform (Oratory or Sing) as your first Versatile Performance. Dance is tempting, from a theme standpoint, and worth putting points into for theme (and Pageant of the Peacock, see below) but not a good choice for your first Versatile Performance.
Take the Masterpiece Pageant of the Peacock with one of your 2nd level spell slots. It requires 4 ranks of Perform (Dance or Act) so take one of those to 4 ranks by 5th level at the latest. It's just amazing, you want it.
The Human Favored Class bonus for Bards gives extra spells known, as long as they aren't the highest level spell you can cast. This makes it usually not worth it for levels 1-3 (though extra 0-level spells can be handy...), and fabulous thereafter. At level 4+ I'd never take the HP or skill point.
Some recommended Bard spells (in no particular order):
0th: Detect Magic, Light (or Dancing Lights), Mage Hand, Mending, Prestidigitation,
1st: Charm Person, Grease, Sleep (at low levels only, retrain it out later), Timely Inspiration, Unnatural Lust, Hideous Laughter, Cure Light Wounds
2nd: Mirror Image (Best defensive spell in the game), Glitterdust, Hold Person, Invisibility, Silence, Suggestion, Tongues, Unadulterated Loathing,
3rd: Haste, Glibness (Combine with Pageant of the Peacock for hilarity), Good Hope (Bard only buff, fabulous), Confusion (great area effect), Charm Monster, Dispel Magic, Terrible Remorse,
4th: Dimension Door, Dominate Person, Freedom of Movement, Hold Monster, Greater Invisibility, Dance of 100 Cuts,
5th: Bard's Escape, Greater Dispel Magic, Phantasmal Web, Song of Discord, Vengeful Outrage, Mass Suggestion,
6th: Dance of a Thousand Cuts, Overwhelming Presence, Waves of Ecstasy, Mass Charm Monster, Getaway, Geas/Quest, Irresistible Dance,
I agree on most spells but as I have actually played a LOT of bards and seen many in play I would add. Feather step, Heroism (if you melee always use heroism. Get a lesser rod of extended spell for heroism and feather step), Jester's Jaunt, Primal Scream and the final spells. Especially Purging Finale, how many spells/abilities remove the stunning conditions? The Party, especially you and the fighter, will love you for feather step.
Drop Unnatural Lust, Hold person and Unadulterated Loathing. Save of suck for a single creature without a raider effect isn’t worth it.
edoit:
Feather step, Heroism, Grease, Glitterdust, Silence, Purging Finale, Haste, Good Hope, and Dimension Door are must have spells. Gallant Inspiration is also a god one, but not a must have.
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Well I was gonna roll plain old True Neutral so I didn't really have any rules to abide by other than doing what I wanted. As a Neutral Good I can disregard laws and stuff like that but only if I feel it is for the good of someone or something. I suppose I could twist this, however, to work for me either way. It'll be a tricky thin line but I think it's doable. For example, I need that mans Donkey to carry my goods, so that I may destroy all of the evil and corruption that oppose Sarenrae. But he won't sell it to me, and there is no other donkeys in the village. I suppose, for the good of Sarenrae and the world, I can force him to sell it by taking it and leaving the gold, or just take it because it is a good action in the long run (and therefore good for the world, because Seranrae is meant to rid the world of corruption and evil).
That's...a shaky line of logic for a real NG character...but very appropriate for a Neutral follower of Sarenrae, see below.
I'm not 100% on what's allowed for "good" characters, so I try to stick to neutral to avoid any problems. I like being able to do what I want and not having to be held to any standards. I feel like a Neutral Good character would help stop a slaver if they saw them and were able to, whereas as a True Neutral character I'd look the other way because I don't want to inconvenience myself.
That all sounds like a solid assessment of what being Good or Neutral means, yeah.
One possibility is to be what amounts to a 'fallen' Dawnflower Dervish. The archetype requires you to have been trained as a holy warrior for Sarenrae...not that you actually still be one, and you lose no powers from falling from grace, since your powers aren't actually from Sarenrae.
I see on the wiki it says you can be a Neutral follower, but I can't exactly look the other way on corruption and evil and still be ridding the world of it.
No, that's a fair assessment. Her Neutral followers are more inclined to use...potentially shady methods in order to accomplish those goals, rather than inclined to ignore the issues...the kind of shady stuff in that first paragraph, for instance.
I'm still not sure if I can steal from people while following her. Unless, you know, it's for the good of the world. Like if that diamond ring will help me buy armor that will allow me to kill evil-doers safely. The longer I kill them the more I help out. All in exchange for a ring.
I'm not sure if that's entirely accurate. You can easily have basically no concern for personal property (especially that of the wealthy) and still care about the well-being of people and fighting evil. Look at, say, Robin Hood.
Heroism and Good Hope are the most essential bard spells i would say!
About Dazzling Display, with some feat investment you can take performance combat feats and keep it up to date on higher levels, making it a swift action. performance combat feats are not PFS legal though i think, be warned. And in a home game, i would ask the GM to houserule this a bit, so you can use performance comabt in all combats without that one feat.
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With that party, I really wouldn't take an archetype that loses the typical Inspire Courage. No offense, but no matter how good you are personally, it's not going to compete with spreading those bonuses over a party with three other martial characters.
Mechanically, you're right...but I was advising based on what the OP seemed to want to play and (as he notes) the build I posted seems to fit that.
Versatile Weapon and Bladed Dash are indeed great, though.
I agree on most spells but as I have actually played a LOT of bards and seen many in play I would add. Feather step, Heroism (if you melee always use heroism. Get a lesser rod of extended spell for heroism and feather step), Jester's Jaunt, Primal Scream and the final spells. Especially Purging Finale, how many spells/abilities remove the stunning conditions? The Party, especially you and the fighter, will love you for feather step.
All that's good advice. I was just skimming and grabbing the good ones I noticed, to be honest.
Drop Unnatural Lust, Hold person and Unadulterated Loathing. Save of suck for a single creature without a raider effect isn’t worth it.
I dunno...taking out an opponent is always handy. They're certainly lower on the list than some others, I'll grant you.
Grease, Glitterdust, Silence, Haste, Good Hope, and Dimension Door are must have spells.
For a Bard focusing on Saves I'd add Confusion to that list. But otherwise agreed.
Heroism and Good Hope are the most essential bard spells i would say!
Eh. Heroism is pretty much completely obsoleted by Good Hope, IME, which makes it a less than ideal choice...
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I will definitely take as many of those spells as I can.
Good call. :)
Deadman, how can I be fallen without losing the class? Do I just keep worshipping her without being a part of the church or anything? Or is the "if the PC stops worshipping they become a standard bard" just a way out in case you don't want to be a Dervish Dancer?
Damn. Don't know how I missed that bit. You're correct, you need to worship Sarenrae to remain a Dawnflower Dervish.
the rest of the post stands, though.
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If good alignment is an issue for you, then I have another option to present, though it may not be -exactly- what your looking for. If the part of the bard you like the best is the bardsong buffing and spellcasting, then you may be better off with a Cleric using the Evangelist archtype. The Evangelist archtype trades away medium armor and a single domain(and also reduces the power of your channel energy) for some bard songs keyed off perform(Oratory), which you get as a class skill. You also replace your spontaneous casting of cure/inflict spells for spontaneous casting off a small but solid list of enchantment spells. Anyway, for a "controller bard" the evangelist is actually better then a real bard. Why? Your a fullcaster, meaning that you can focus entirely on your casting, and due to having bardsong and the cleric list you can rival a true bard in the area of buffing while still having strong control options and, more importantly, more spells per-day.
Evangelists can be built multiple ways, and like a bard can be focused on mundane combat(Evangelists can make darn good archers if you choose a deity with the Longbow as their favored weapon). However, unlike a bard you can build an evangelist as a fullcaster and true controller due to their plentiful spells per-day and the fact they get 9th level spells. You can do this either by taking traditional caster feats(Spell focus in your favored school, Spell Penetration, metamagic etc..) or by focusing on summoning(By taking stuff like Augment summoning and the VERY good Sacred Summons). If your going for the former, you can freely worship any deity that has a domain with spells you like and then play -any- alignment you wish. Several of the chaotic deities have awesome domains such as travel, trickery, madness etc.. so for this route pick and choose what alignment you want, find an appropriate deity with a solid domain and domain spells and you now have a controller bard with no alignment issues.
The summoner evangelist, however, is vastly superior to the Offensive Caster/Controller Evangelist while still being able to dish out a lot of control through it's summons(and some offensive casting, too, if you have the wisdom.) Sadly, though if you want to go the summoner route, you'll likely want the Glory(Heroism) domain, which means VERY limited choice of deity. In fact, there are only two deities I know of who have it, one of whom is the lawful good Iomedae. However, there is hope for you if your into summoning. General Susumu(A Tian Xia deity of warfare, archery, and evil, arrogant, glory/power-seeking Samurai.) has that domain and is lawful evil, meaning he can have neutral evil clerics. While neutral evil may not quite be chaotic, you can justify many, many selfish actions with that alignment and I personally find NE to be more condusive to "screwing the rules" for personal gain than any of the chaotic alignments barring maybe CE. Basically, when playing NE, if you can think of a self-serving/selfish justification for an action, it will generally be A-ok for your alignment, even if it's seemingly a good.(If you can't think of a selfish, *******-ish reason for doing a good deed, your not trying hard enough.) NE is the alignment of absolute selfishness...NE isn't bound by chaos, law or any sort of moral code, and thus NE characters have the liberty to be quite flexible in their decision making.
If this is for PF society, however, a neutral evil Evangelist cleric of General Susumu is not an option...so you may not want to go the summoner route if this is in fact PFS.
However, while an Evangelist Cleric is the true "controller bard" in terms of buffing and magic, where it is decidedly NOT a bard is skills. Simply put, an evangelist is NOT a skillmonkey and never will be. If your goal is to be a powerful buffer and battlefield controller, then Evangelist is your best bet. However, if it is the skillmonkey aspect of the bard you care about most, Evangelist will not do the trick. You can still be a decent face, good textbook and if you take the trickery domain can even have stealth at your fingertips...but you'll need some int to do this(Human can do it with just 12, but any other race will need at least 14 to pull it off.) and can't do all three of them at the same time. You must choose to be either the face, textbook or sneak, and can only ever be one of those things. The bard, meanwhile, while he'll have to focus on mundane combat more, has the advantage of being able to be the face AND disarm traps AND stealth AND be the textbook all at the same time. That is the sacrifice you make for greater magical power. So, in the end, bard is still a great choice and a fun class, especially if you really want to be the skill-monkey. However, if it's battlefield control, bard song, spellcasting and alignment freedom that you value most, then Evangelist Cleric would be worth looking into.
For your convenience, the the Evangelist Archtype can be found here:
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/cleric/archetypes/paizo---cler ic-archetypes/evangelist
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Ahh...so this is for PFS. In that case, yeah...bard likely would be better. Bard in general is a VERY good choice for PFS since having both skills and strong mundane combat ability is extremely valuable there. People will love you for your buffs and the fact you have so much knowledge(bardic knowledge FTW!) and can be the face. Also, just to throw another idea into a ring, have you looked at the Arcane Duelist archtype for bards? If you don't want to be held to the worship of Sarenrae, Arcane Duelist can make just as strong a melee character as dawflower dervish, though with a different focus. Unlike the dervish, your bardsong buffs can actually effect your allies, and while you lose a lot, you gain a whole lot more if your interested in melee. The dervish, simply put, is more self-sufficient but dosen't play as well with others. The standard bard plays very well with others but is weaker at combat then the dervish. The arcane duelist is the middle-ground, being a strong combatant while still being able to use their bardsong on their allies and themselves. In addition, the Arcane Duelist lacks the alignment and religion restrictions of the Dervish, and even further isn't limited to using only the Scimitar. While you can certainly still use the dervish dance feat, if you want you can use a rapier instead and use the arcane bond you get from arcane duelist to assure that rapier WILL be agile. This makes the arcane duelist a bit more late-blooming then the dervish, but in return you gain piles of feats, access to better armor, an arcane bond with your weapon and more importantly, your bardsong still works on your allies!
Anyway, either will work, but if you don't want to be straight-jacked to a deity and religion but still want to be effective at melee, the Arcane Duelist would be right up your alley.
For refrence, the Arcane Duelist can be found here: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/bard/archetypes/paizo---bard-a rchetypes/arcane-duelist
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I see, in that case I'm glad you found something you like! Also, neither the dervish or the arcane duelist is better then the other, it depends on the playstyle you want, TBH. The devish is by far a better fighter then an Arcane Duelist. As stated, the Arcane Duelist is meant to be the mid-ground between the dervish and the vanilla bard, TBH, as it gives up some of the bard's versatility for greater combat prowess, but retains some of that versatility. The dervish, meanwhile, is EVEN MORE focused on melee combat then the Arcane Duelist and thus loses some versatility in that regard, but due to this specialization comes out as a disgustingly powerful melee fighter that still has some great versatility due to the fact they still have 6 levels worth of bard spells and 6+ int skill points with a solid list. So if your going for pure melee power first and foremost and don't really care about not being able to buff party members that well then yeah, Dervish is the best choice! =)
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I see...That does sound fun, though if you want to be -really- good at intimidation/fear effects then the Dirge Bard would probably be best. However, the Dirge bard is not really built to be great at melee so if you want a melee focus(which it seems you do) then I'd advise against it despite the bonuses it gets to intimidation and fear-effects.
With that party, I really wouldn't take an archetype that loses the typical Inspire Courage. No offense, but no matter how good you are personally, it's not going to compete with spreading those bonuses over a party with three other martial characters.Mechanically, you're right...but I was advising based on what the OP seemed to want to play and (as he notes) the build I posted seems to fit that.
Versatile Weapon and Bladed Dash are indeed great, though.
I agree on most spells but as I have actually played a LOT of bards and seen many in play I would add. Feather step, Heroism (if you melee always use heroism. Get a lesser rod of extended spell for heroism and feather step), Jester's Jaunt, Primal Scream and the final spells. Especially Purging Finale, how many spells/abilities remove the stunning conditions? The Party, especially you and the fighter, will love you for feather step.All that's good advice. I was just skimming and grabbing the good ones I noticed, to be honest.
Drop Unnatural Lust, Hold person and Unadulterated Loathing. Save of suck for a single creature without a raider effect isn’t worth it.I dunno...taking out an opponent is always handy. They're certainly lower on the list than some others, I'll grant you.
Grease, Glitterdust, Silence, Haste, Good Hope, and Dimension Door are must have spells.For a Bard focusing on Saves I'd add Confusion to that list. But otherwise agreed.
Heroism and Good Hope are the most essential bard spells i would say!Eh. Heroism is pretty much completely obsoleted by Good Hope, IME, which makes it a less than ideal choice...
Some quick notes.
Unnatural Lust, Hold person and Unadulterated Loathing are not good. When casting save or suck spells he should use area spells or spells with raider effects. I used Glitterdust and occasionally Silence even past level 12 when I played my Arcane Duelist. Glitterdust (and Grease) also lack SR which is great.
True confusion is a great spell, but let the wizard cast that one and the bard casts haste and/or good hope. It is better to pick Jester's Jaunt. Very nice utility spell or some other cool utility spell like Glibness.
No, Heroism is NOT obsoleted by Good Hope in any way. The OP will dump wisdom, have bad fort svaes and he is s skill monkey and he wants to hit things with his stick. Heroism helps him with all that. Heroism with a rod of extended spell last a very long time. The op won’t always be able to cast Good Hope, but he can make sure he more or less always has Heroism active. Same goes for feather step. He should have both on his list.
@OP. A warning and some advice!
Playing a is about being smart and always an ace up your sleeve. Focusing too much on melee can make you blind and your bard becomes just a crappy melee dude. Always bring back up weapons, scrolls, wands (CLW!), tanglefooot bags, antitoxin, rope, etc, etc. Let the melee brutes and wizard shine in their area of expertise and you shine in your area of expertise.
As pointed out by Zathyr the party probably need a bard that doesn’t loses the typical Inspire Courage. My guess is a jack-of-all-trade bard with some archer feats would have been better, but you asked for a good melee bard and this is the best you can get. Deadmanwalking has done a great job helping you.
My job now is just to warn you that you can never (even fully buffed) compete with a fighter or barbarian on their turf, so be smart. When it comes to buffs, Haste is the best. Good Hope is the second best. Both together is awesome, but Good Hope is mostly for the Party because you must make sure that you at higher levels always are fully buffed with longstrider (wand), Heroism and Feather step. See invisibility (wand) is also good.
Also: Get shield. On a wand or add it to your spell list using a Ring of spell knowledge.
Final word. Max out Use magic Devise and be smart.
PS. Get a wand of CLW.
Well, two feats that can make bards incredibly strong are the Kithadorian academy feats.
Master performer and Grand master performer, both give a stacking +1 bonus to all boni that grant your allies a boni, which includes you.
In any non-PFS game, i would totally take those as a bard that is able to grant boni to others.
My cha is 18 starting out. I'm still trying to figure out how I can effectively use spells and melee in a really complimentary fashion. I wish I could back out of threat range without provoking an AoO, but the only way I've seen it done is with a tumble DC. I'd like to be able to back out, cast, and then attack while they're under whatever effect I chose. I know it'll take more than a round, but it would be nice. What sucks is eventually my tumble check will fail and it will not be good in light armor with no dex bonus.
As for retraining, I'm not sure what that is. I just know he said we get one chance to redesign our character after we play the first scenario. After that we're stuck with them.
Edit: apparently I can use acrobatics to move without provoking. I can only move at half speed then. 15 feet is plenty to move back and get a cast off though. Hopefully it's after the enemies turn so he can't pursue me.
You get a wand of lonstrider eventually so that won't be a problem.
EditBTW, Arcane Strike is a rock solid feat if you want to melee. :D
You want that feat sooner or later. The damage stacks with everything and it multiples on a crit.
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Treatmonks guide is meh. I prefer my bard with +17 init, haste as a swift, courage as a move (+5/+5) and inspire command as standard for the "Guess what I went first and all my homies are +30 movement,+1 attack, +7 hit, +5 damage, +3 ac, +2 cmd and +2 skill checks, +1 reflex, +4 vs charm/fear." Their turn.