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I recently came into debate during a game about what an unseen servant can / could do per RAW.
Per RAW (unseen servant – http://paizo.com/prd/spells/unseenServant.html)
It cannot:
1) Do anything that requires a Strength higher than 2.
2) Can’t perform a task with a DC higher than 10.
3) Can’t perform a Skill that requires you to be trained.
4) Cannot attack in any way (“attack”, per RAW, is defined as something that would break an invisibility spell); generally this involves a d20 attack roll which it cannot make.
Per RAW:
1) Reloading a crossbow (or) firearm - per RAW - - does it require a Strength higher than 2? (No); Does it require a task of higher than DC 10? (No); Does it require a trained skill? (No); Does it require an attack roll to reload the crossbow? (No)
**Therefore, I conclude it can perform the above action – correct?
2) Can it prop up a darkwood towershield (22.5 lb.) resting on the ground, for a character to hide behind and take cover? Physics tells us, half the weight is resting on the ground (11.25 lb), and the other half (11.25 lb) would be propped up by the unseen servant.
**Therefore, I conclude it can prop the shield, or a similar weight plank of wood up, drag it, but couldn’t lift it off the ground. Propping it up with someone hiding behind it would be sufficient for cover.
What are your thoughts on my claims #1 and #2?
Do you agree?
YIDM
Does it require a trained skill? (No)It does. It's called "proficiency".
Does it? Does it really?
I'm fairly sure someone without proficiency can load a crossbow. (Though firing it they'd get a -4 to hit)
1) Yes it can definitely load a crossbow no problem. As for a firearm it is a GMs call whether loading such a weapon is a simple task or not.
2) Real world physics has no bearing on the game. However, a creature with a 2 strength can lift 40lbs overhead and push/drag 100lbs so it should certainly be able to prop up a tower shield.
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Fair enough, but balance-wise I probably still wouldn't allow a 1st level spell to replace the sole function of a 2nd level spell.
The question isn't really about an Unseen Servant reloading a crossbow, though. It's more like: Can an Unseen Servant reload a crossbow fast enough for me to attack with it? I'll still say "no".
The physics example is still out, though.
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Per RAW, if your character is dead, nothing prevents him from hopping up and continuing to attack bad guys. Does that mean it's right?
GM discretion. Personally, I would say no to both. And while I agree that the U.S. could hold up a tower shield, I would rule that no mechanical benefits would be gained.
Fair enough, but balance-wise I probably still wouldn't allow a 1st level spell to replace the sole function of a 2nd level spell.
The question isn't really about an Unseen Servant reloading a crossbow, though. It's more like: Can an Unseen Servant reload a crossbow fast enough for me to attack with it?
The physics example is still out, though.
I don't think unseen servant does completely replace reloading hands. To me that is a good argument for not allowing it to also reload fire arms which are more complicated. An unseen servant can only perform simple tasks and I don't think loading a primitive fire arm can be considered a simple task. That is a GM call but given your point about Reloading Hands I think most GMs would rule against it.
Per RAW, if your character is dead, nothing prevents him from hopping up and continuing to attack bad guys. Does that mean it's right?
GM discretion. Personally, I would say no to both. And while I agree that the U.S. could hold up a tower shield, I would rule that no mechanical benefits would be gained.
I don't think anything suggested in this thread rises anywhere near the level of dead characters attacking. As you say though it is entirely up to GM discretion but most will probably not have a problem with reloading a crossbow or propping up a tower shield.
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Fair enough, but balance-wise I probably still wouldn't allow a 1st level spell to replace the sole function of a 2nd level spell.
Reloading hands conjures magic ammo to load the weapon with. So I would not call the reloading part the sole function of that spell.
but it can exert only 20 pounds of force,
How much pressure is needed to cock a crossbow? Specifically, a medieval-level technology crossbow?
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2) Real world physics has no bearing on the game.
Actually, yes, real world physics does have have a bearing on the game. "Magic" is the excuse to hand wave stuff that physics can't explain. We don't need rules to tell us that water flows downhill—real world physics. We don't need rules to tell us that if you drop something, it falls to the ground—real world physics. We don't have rules to tell us that plants need water to survive, or sunlight for photosenthesis. We don't need a game definition of "dead" because if a character is dead, we know what that means.
Just because the game has magic and dragons and other things that break the rules of reality doesn't mean we blindly ignore reality for those things that have real world examples.
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I would say "no" to both as well. An Unseen Servant is not meant to fulfill the role of another character (propping up a Tower Shield), or give you the benefit of a feat (Rapid Reload). I agree with you that it is up to GM discretion but I disagree that most would allow those actions to be performed.
It's meant to carry things and do simple tasks. That's about it.
Edit: highly ninja'd
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One way to conceptualize unseen servant is to think of it as possessing many of the attributes of about a 5 year old.
Could a 5 year old reload your crossbow? Not while you're holding it. If you want to spend a move action handing over your crossbow, then having your US reload it, then having it spend a move action handing it back, sounds reasonable to me.
While your physics calcualtion is accurate for the real world, using a tower shield to provide cover involves more than just propping it up. Your technique leaves it unsecured at the bottom, and lacks any way to brace it against oncoming blows. I'd probably give you concealment for hiding behind it, but it wouldn't be a source of cover as it would be too easy to knock aside. A 5 year old could lift the end of the shield up but not hold it against an attack, basically.
(I imagine a character using the standard action to get cover from a tower shield is likely ducking down behind it, and bracing it with their foot and shoulder.)
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In a home game, as a GM, I would not be very interested in RAW. The question I would ask is this: What is the intention of the spell? and the second question I would ask is this: what kind of advantage is the player trying to get?
From what I understand by having the invisible servant reload a crossbow or fire arm, you are trying to save actions to give you more to do in a round. The same with lifting a shield off of the ground.
So In a home game, I would not allow an unseen servant to load a crossbow for you in a quick and efficient manner, nor lift a shield for you.
Nefreet offers better raw arguments then I, and I would agree with what he suggests.
Now out of combat is a different story.
I have allowed people to use an unseen servant to
A) help them sort books in a library and take out and replace books halving the time needed to search a library for information.
B) clean a place up before a date arrives,
c) help with gardening, weeding etc, in one adventure I ran, the party had to clean a garden de weeding it trimming the bushes etc.....I allowed a couple of unseen servants to halve the time required to do the work.
D)When the ranger brought back a deer he had hunted to feed the party, I allowed an unseen servant to help dress the deer and prepare the meal.
C)When the party was retreating down a sandy underground passage, I allowed them to use an unseen servant to sweep away their foot prints so they couldn't be tracked.
D) ah last but not least...serving tea in the wizard's tower.
Well I hope this gives you some out of combat ideas for uses of an unseen servant.
2) Real world physics has no bearing on the game.Actually, yes, real world physics does have have a bearing on the game. "Magic" is the excuse to hand wave stuff that physics can't explain. We don't need rules to tell us that water flows downhill—real world physics. We don't need rules to tell us that if you drop something, it falls to the ground—real world physics. We don't have rules to tell us that plants need water to survive, or sunlight for photosenthesis. We don't need a game definition of "dead" because if a character is dead, we know what that means.
Just because the game has magic and dragons and other things that break the rules of reality doesn't mean we blindly ignore reality for those things that have real world examples.
From your post about dead people attacking even though nothing in this thread is so obviously egregious to this post it seems you just came here to start arguments with people. It is very clear that I was stating real world physics has no bearing on things there are actual rules for.
I'm not asking for GM interpretation here or what would work in a home game...I'm asking for a strict interpretation of RAW as required for a Pathfinder Society Game.
By RAW - - reloading a crossbow in Pathfinder has no restrictions or requirements that unseen servant cannot perform (i.e. Str 2, DC 10, trained skill, combat action or d20 attack roll, etc.).
By RAW, reloading a firearm (especially with a paper cartridge) has no restrictions that unseen servant cannot perform (i.e. Str 2, DC 10, trained skill, combat action or d20 attack roll, etc.).
If these rules by RAW are correct, then, by RAW, an unseen servant can perform the said action of reloading crossbows or firearms.
Yes, reloading hands spell can also do this type of action, but it also has other abilities (namely making the ammo magic and being able to hit incorporeal creatures because of this fact). This is not my post, nor up for debate.
Also, part 2 of my question, by RAW, can a Str 2 creature prop up a darkwood tower shield? By RAW if we agree a creature with a Strength of 2 could, then, by virtue of that, an unseen servant which falls under the same rules should be able to do the same type of action.
So to be clear, by RAW, per Pathfinder Society rules, can an unseen servant:
1) Reload a crossbow
2) Reload a firearm
3) Reload a firearm with a alchemical paper cartridge
4) Prop up an item of 22.5 lb. (like a darkwood tower shield, or a table, plank of wood, etc.)
“I” am inclined to read the rules and say yes. From a strictly RAW standpoint, are these points (i.e. what unseen servant can/cannot do) in debate?
Can we get a Dev out here to reply?
Thanks.
YIDM
I'm not asking for GM interpretation here or what would work in a home game...I'm asking for a strict interpretation of RAW as required for a Pathfinder Society Game.
By RAW - - reloading a crossbow in Pathfinder has no restrictions or requirements that unseen servant cannot perform (i.e. Str 2, DC 10, trained skill, combat action or d20 attack roll, etc.).
By RAW, reloading a firearm (especially with a paper cartridge) has no restrictions that unseen servant cannot perform (i.e. Str 2, DC 10, trained skill, combat action or d20 attack roll, etc.).
If these rules by RAW are correct, then, by RAW, an unseen servant can perform the said action of reloading crossbows or firearms.
Yes, reloading hands spell can also do this type of action, but it also has other abilities (namely making the ammo magic and being able to hit incorporeal creatures because of this fact). This is not my post, nor up for debate.
Also, part 2 of my question, by RAW, can a Str 2 creature prop up a darkwood tower shield? By RAW if we agree a creature with a Strength of 2 could, then, by virtue of that, an unseen servant which falls under the same rules should be able to do the same type of action.
So to be clear, by RAW, per Pathfinder Society rules, can an unseen servant:
1) Reload a crossbow
2) Reload a firearm
3) Reload a firearm with a alchemical paper cartridge
4) Prop up an item of 22.5 lb. (like a darkwood tower shield, or a table, plank of wood, etc.)“I” am inclined to read the rules and say yes. From a strictly RAW standpoint, are these points (i.e. what unseen servant can/cannot do) in debate?
Can we get a Dev out here to reply?
Thanks.
YIDM
Any question that a by default rejects an answer of "GM call" is an unreasonable request. For some things, and this is one, the answer is that it is the GMs call. Furthermore, demands for a dev response never get one.
Just look at Nefreet's request for a ruling on natural weapon damage progression. That was a question that truly does need dev clarification and as far as I know to this day there has still been no dev response. So a question like this that can be easily adjudicated by a GM isn't likely to get one.
One way to conceptualize unseen servant is to think of it as possessing many of the attributes of about a 5 year old.
Could a 5 year old reload your crossbow? Not while you're holding it. If you want to spend a move action handing over your crossbow, then having your US reload it, then having it spend a move action handing it back, sounds reasonable to me.
While your physics calcualtion is accurate for the real world, using a tower shield to provide cover involves more than just propping it up. Your technique leaves it unsecured at the bottom, and lacks any way to brace it against oncoming blows. I'd probably give you concealment for hiding behind it, but it wouldn't be a source of cover as it would be too easy to knock aside. A 5 year old could lift the end of the shield up but not hold it against an attack, basically.
(I imagine a character using the standard action to get cover from a tower shield is likely ducking down behind it, and bracing it with their foot and shoulder.)
I can totally see +2 Cover Partial or +4 Cover half, but not full cover from the Tower Shield propped from the Servant.
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I love using unseen servant to do things like spend move actions to open or close doors, and to carry a torch or light source, as well as be a weapon caddy for a spare sword.
Also, you can combine with waving a sword around and the bluff or intimidate skill to suggest there's an invisible or magical foe ready to kill at your command.
Yes i would allow an unseen servent to load a crossbow at a move action. The unseen servant doesnt gain the feats or abilities u do to reload faster so it will always reload 1 crossbow as its own move action.
Rapid reload would not work on unseen servant because that effects ur character, not the U.S.
duel weilding crossbows and want to drop one for the U.S. to load, it can as a full round action (move action to pick up, move action to reload) whats the action to give or pick up? It maybe more than a full round action, i think itd be move+move+move.
So yeah i see it happening as long as it is not effect by ur feats or abilities. It will be nice at lower levels but quickly lose its usefullness once a few levels are gained or rapid reload is taken.
No on the firearm. Crossbows are under "simple" weapons in which pretty much every class has available. Firearms are exotic and if theres a penalty to do something, it isnt simple which means the U.S. cannot do.
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1) no
2) no
3) no
4) noSpeaking as a PFS GM who's run over a hundred games thus far.
You may encounter a GM who allows you these things, but most won't.
By strict RAW, what specific part of the desired actions, are outside the limits imposed by the spell?
Under PFS rules, you're not allowed to say no to an action what is within the limitations defined by the spell.
Don't know, but there's no strength restrictions on them, so presumably not much. :Pbut it can exert only 20 pounds of force,How much pressure is needed to cock a crossbow? Specifically, a medieval-level technology crossbow?
Because the ones with really heavy draw weights would use a windlass.
And in game, if it required a high STR to draw then the natural follow up question would be: why can't I get a crossbow that adds my STR bonus to damage?
1) no
2) no
3) no
4) noSpeaking as a PFS GM who's run over a hundred games thus far.
You may encounter a GM who allows you these things, but most won't.
By strict RAW, what specific part of the desired actions, are outside the limits imposed by the spell?
Under PFS rules, you're not allowed to say no to an action what is within the limitations defined by the spell.
I second that. What part on #1 thru #4 is in violation of RAW? (specifically)
YIDM
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Yeah, I'd say the complexity of loading an early black powder weapon properly might be beyond the nonexistent mental capacity of the servant. If you were in a setting with revolver and other advanced firearms I might see it, but muzzle loading quickly is not an easy process. I've fired a black powder rifle exactly twice, so as a nonproficient user I can state it took me about 1-2 minutes to load the dang thing.
Even if you do allow an unseen servant to load a firearm, it is not proficient and therefore ups the misfire value by 4.
Yeah, I'd say the complexity of loading an early black powder weapon properly might be beyond the nonexistent mental capacity of the servant. If you were in a setting with revolver and other advanced firearms I might see it, but muzzle loading quickly is not an easy process. I've fired a black powder rifle exactly twice, so as a nonproficient user I can state it took me about 1-2 minutes to load the dang thing.
Even if you do allow an unseen servant to load a firearm, it is not proficient and therefore ups the misfire value by 4.
1) We aren't talking real world here, we're talking RAW.
2) I also added Item #3 - a paper alchemical cartridge in case someone argued "complexity". So as to give the option to allow Items #1,3,4 while excluding Item #2.So...per RAW, what restricts the unseen servant to performing actions #1 thru #4?
YIDM
I agree. The non-proficiency penalty would apply.The rules on firearms state that if a character loads one, without the proficiency, that shot has its misfire range increased by 4.
So, if you do decide that by RAW, an Unseen Servant can reload your firearm, then it can't do it well
Whoops!
Just to keep things clear: I wrote that post, then saw that ryric had already made that point upthread.. so I deleted my old post.
Carry on :)
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So...per RAW, what restricts the unseen servant to performing actions #1 thru #4?YIDM
Ok, here's my RAW response:
1.Reloading a crossbow: Yes, but the servant has to have the crossbow, so action economy makes this less worthwhile. Either you spend a move action handing over the crossbow, or you drop it for free, and the servant spends a move picking it up. Now the servant spends whatever action loading, and can either drop it, requiring amove action from you to pick up, or can hand it to you for its own move if it has one left. Either way you spend a move to get your crossbow loaded(if light) each round, or every other round if heavy. Not sure I see the advantage.
2.Reload a firearm: No, this is not a simple action.
3.Reload a firearm with a cartridge: Sure. The servant is nonproficient so your misfire value goes up by 4, in addition to the increase for the cartridge. Enjoy your 1-8 misfire or whatever.
4.Tower shield: The servant can prop up the shield, but that doesn't give you the cover benefits listed in the tower shield description. The shield has to be wielded to get those benefits, and the servant can't wield the shield due to insufficient Str score.
Yeah, I'd say the complexity of loading an early black powder weapon properly might be beyond the nonexistent mental capacity of the servant. If you were in a setting with revolver and other advanced firearms I might see it, but muzzle loading quickly is not an easy process. I've fired a black powder rifle exactly twice, so as a nonproficient user I can state it took me about 1-2 minutes to load the dang thing.
Even if you do allow an unseen servant to load a firearm, it is not proficient and therefore ups the misfire value by 4.
1) We aren't talking real world here, we're talking RAW.
2) I also added Item #3 - a paper alchemical cartridge in case someone argued "complexity". So as to give the option to allow Items #1,3,4 while excluding Item #2.So...per RAW, what restricts the unseen servant to performing actions #1 thru #4?
YIDM
I think the closest ur gonna get with firearms is what i pointed out. Crossbows are located under "SIMPLE" weapons while firearms are under "EXOTIC". Since U.S. can ONLY do simple tasks and simple is even right there to describe the type of weapon of the crossbow.
Also remember U.S. can ONLY do simple tasks. Do not confuse what rights a pc has (aka the ability to attempt anything we desire weither we can acconplish or not or even profencient or not) is not the same thimgs that U.S. can do. Remember we take penalties because its not being done correctly which can imply the task is not simple.But alas the firearms debate, crossbows are under "SIMPLE" weapons which means they are simple to use (aka falls under simple tasks U.S. can perform) whereas firearms are under exotic meaning they are foreign and not simple to the average person and dont even have simple anywhere unlike crossbows does.
Yeah, I'd say the complexity of loading an early black powder weapon properly might be beyond the nonexistent mental capacity of the servant. If you were in a setting with revolver and other advanced firearms I might see it, but muzzle loading quickly is not an easy process. I've fired a black powder rifle exactly twice, so as a nonproficient user I can state it took me about 1-2 minutes to load the dang thing.
Even if you do allow an unseen servant to load a firearm, it is not proficient and therefore ups the misfire value by 4.
1) We aren't talking real world here, we're talking RAW.
2) I also added Item #3 - a paper alchemical cartridge in case someone argued "complexity". So as to give the option to allow Items #1,3,4 while excluding Item #2.So...per RAW, what restricts the unseen servant to performing actions #1 thru #4?
YIDM
1) So was Ryric, the RAW says the unseen servant is mindless. The RAW says it may only undertake simple tasks. The RAW does NOT describe how firearms are loaded, it assumes you understand how already.
2) Adding alchemical cartridges does not necessarily make the task less complex.
It all comes down to GM interpretation. I'm sorry you don't like that answer.
My answer on 1-4 would be
1) Yes
2) No
3) No
4) Yes
Others have given alternate answers but no single person is right according to RAW. We are all just able to give you our interpretation of RAI.
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Sure, unseen servant can reload a firearm. Doing so is a standard action for a one-handed firearm or a full-round action for a two-handed firearm, per the firearm rules. If you're willing to sit there and hold the firearm steady without using it for that long, knock yourself out. Otherwise, you're interfering with the servant's actions.
What, you didn't think it could reload the thing at the same time you're shooting, did you?
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So...per RAW, what restricts the unseen servant to performing actions #1 thru #4?YIDM
Ok, here's my RAW response:
1.Reloading a crossbow: Yes, but the servant has to have the crossbow, so action economy makes this less worthwhile. Either you spend a move action handing over the crossbow, or you drop it for free, and the servant spends a move picking it up. Now the servant spends whatever action loading, and can either drop it, requiring amove action from you to pick up, or can hand it to you for its own move if it has one left. Either way you spend a move to get your crossbow loaded(if light) each round, or every other round if heavy. Not sure I see the advantage.
2.Reload a firearm: No, this is not a simple action.
3.Reload a firearm with a cartridge: Sure. The servant is nonproficient so your misfire value goes up by 4, in addition to the increase for the cartridge. Enjoy your 1-8 misfire or whatever.
4.Tower shield: The servant can prop up the shield, but that doesn't give you the cover benefits listed in the tower shield description. The shield has to be wielded to get those benefits, and the servant can't wield the shield due to insufficient Str score.
1. Where does it say, per RAW, that the unseen servant must possess the crossbow to reload it?
1a. dropping the crossbow after attacking is a free action, so even if it does require you to drop the crossbow, it is still valid as it can bring the crossbow to you when it’s done reloading it2. Where does it say reloading a firearm isn’t a simple action? Per RAW, reloading a firearm has no required check that’s DC 10 or higher, and requires no trained skill to perform, and a non-proficient person can perform the action. (It sounds to me you are making a interpretation which isn’t allowed in PFS; we are talking RAW here)
**mending clothes with thread and needle is at least as complex from a “mindless creature” standpoint if we’re arguing semantics.
3. I agree.
4. Cover is **any** object you hide behind; be it tower shields, flipped over tables, planks of wood (like a diving board), even other characters. So how, per RAW, would a character hiding behind a held up tower shield not give some measure of Cover, as defined in the rules (like +4 AC for "cover" as defined in combat section of RAW?)
YIDM
Yeah, I'd say the complexity of loading an early black powder weapon properly might be beyond the nonexistent mental capacity of the servant. If you were in a setting with revolver and other advanced firearms I might see it, but muzzle loading quickly is not an easy process. I've fired a black powder rifle exactly twice, so as a nonproficient user I can state it took me about 1-2 minutes to load the dang thing.
Even if you do allow an unseen servant to load a firearm, it is not proficient and therefore ups the misfire value by 4.
1) We aren't talking real world here, we're talking RAW.
2) I also added Item #3 - a paper alchemical cartridge in case someone argued "complexity". So as to give the option to allow Items #1,3,4 while excluding Item #2.So...per RAW, what restricts the unseen servant to performing actions #1 thru #4?
YIDM
I think the closest ur gonna get with firearms is what i pointed out. Crossbows are located under "SIMPLE" weapons while firearms are under "EXOTIC". Since U.S. can ONLY do simple tasks and simple is even right there to describe the type of weapon of the crossbow.
Also remember U.S. can ONLY do simple tasks. Do not confuse what rights a pc has (aka the ability to attempt anything we desire weither we can acconplish or not or even profencient or not) is not the same thimgs that U.S. can do. Remember we take penalties because its not being done correctly which can imply the task is not simple.But alas the firearms debate, crossbows are under "SIMPLE" weapons which means they are simple to use (aka falls under simple tasks U.S. can perform) whereas firearms are under exotic meaning they are foreign and not simple to the average person and dont even have simple anywhere unlike crossbows does.
Your logic is flawed here. “Simple” weapon category weapons are not necessarily less complex than “Exotic” weapons (crossbow vs. hand crossbow for example).
By your logic, the unseen servant could reload a crossbow (since it's simple), but not a hand crossbow (since it's exotic)?
--that makes no sense whatsoever, and isn't supported by RAW at all, sorry.
YIDM
1. Where does it say, per RAW, that the unseen servant must possess the crossbow to reload it?
1a. dropping the crossbow after attacking is a free action, so even if it does require you to drop the crossbow, it is still valid as it can bring the crossbow to you when it’s done reloading it
2. Where does it say reloading a firearm isn’t a simple action? Per RAW, reloading a firearm has no required check that’s DC 10 or higher, and requires no trained skill to perform, and a non-proficient person can perform the action. (It sounds to me you are making a interpretation which isn’t allowed in PFS; we are talking RAW here)
**mending clothes with thread and needle is at least as complex from a “mindless creature” standpoint if we’re arguing semantics.3. I agree.
4. Cover is **any** object you hide behind; be it tower shields, flipped over tables, planks of wood (like a diving board), even other characters. So how, per RAW, would a character hiding behind a held up tower shield not give some measure of Cover, as defined in the rules (like +4 AC for "cover" as defined in combat section of RAW?)
1)You can't perform any type of action with a weapon you don't possess. Reloading a crossbow is a move or full round (depending on the type of crossbow) action performed with that weapon. So you can't load crossbow you don't posses.
2)where does it say that reloading a firearm IS a simple action. That is up to GM discretion
3)Still up to the GM on how complex loading a weapon with a paper alchemical cartridge is. What qualifies as a "simple task" for purposes of the spell is left up to the GM.
4)A tower shield specifies that with a standard action you can use it to grant YOU cover not someone else. Therefore, your unseen servant could prop it up to grant itself cover but not you.
I think what this guy REALLY wants, is a way to be a pavise crossbowman, if you can give that to him
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I think what this guy REALLY wants, is a way to be a pavise crossbowman, if you can give that to him
I think he really wants to be Kore the dwarven paladin from the Goblins comic http://www.goblinscomic.org/09122005/
1. Where does it say, per RAW, that the unseen servant must possess the crossbow to reload it?
1a. dropping the crossbow after attacking is a free action, so even if it does require you to drop the crossbow, it is still valid as it can bring the crossbow to you when it’s done reloading it
2. Where does it say reloading a firearm isn’t a simple action? Per RAW, reloading a firearm has no required check that’s DC 10 or higher, and requires no trained skill to perform, and a non-proficient person can perform the action. (It sounds to me you are making a interpretation which isn’t allowed in PFS; we are talking RAW here)
**mending clothes with thread and needle is at least as complex from a “mindless creature” standpoint if we’re arguing semantics.3. I agree.
4. Cover is **any** object you hide behind; be it tower shields, flipped over tables, planks of wood (like a diving board), even other characters. So how, per RAW, would a character hiding behind a held up tower shield not give some measure of Cover, as defined in the rules (like +4 AC for "cover" as defined in combat section of RAW?)
1)You can't perform any type of action with a weapon you don't possess. Reloading a crossbow is a move or full round (depending on the type of crossbow) action performed with that weapon. So you can't load crossbow you don't posses.
2)where does it say that reloading a firearm IS a simple action. That is up to GM discretion
3)Still up to the GM on how complex loading a weapon with a paper alchemical cartridge is. What qualifies as a "simple task" for purposes of the spell is left up to the GM.
4)A tower shield specifies that with a standard action you can use it to grant YOU cover not someone else. Therefore, your unseen servant could prop it up to grant itself cover but not you.
1. I can agree with that per RAW.
2. I disagree. They have defined what constitutes a complex action within the text of unseen servant (i.e. higher than DC 10, requires trained skill, etc.)3. I disagree; see #2 above.
4. I disagree. A tower shield speicifies it's special use "total cover" for using a standard action (as defined in the RAW for a tower shield). Any object or PC can grant cover as defined in the combat section of RAW based on it's location on the grid map and mini placement (per RAW).
OldSkoolRPG - on a personal note, I appreciate your logic and objective attitude; that's what I was looking for with my original statement. I was wanting (or hoping) that it could be debated from strictly a RAW standpoint and I appreicate the way in which you've responded thus far.
YIDM
PS - any chance we could flag this for a Dev response?
1. I can agree with that per RAW.
2. I disagree. They have defined what constitutes a complex action within the text of unseen servant (i.e. higher than DC 10, requires trained skill, etc.)
3. I disagree; see #2 above.
4. I disagree. A tower shield speicifies it's special use "total cover" for using a standard action (as defined in the RAW for a tower shield). Any object or PC can grant cover as defined in the combat section of RAW based on it's location on the grid map and mini placement (per RAW).
1) We agree
2) The remarks about anything requiring higher than DC 10 check is not the definition of a complex action it is just an example of one type of complex action. Whether or not actions that do not require rolls are complex is not specified and is left up to the GM.3) See 2 again.
4) That is incorrect. Only objects that the GM deems are of appropriate size and position can provide cover. I would argue that for the tower shield propped up by a unseen servant the servant is the one kneeling right in the shadow of the shield. The character would then be at least 5' away and would not get any cover benefit. Again, that is just a GM call.
Per your request I have FAQed it for you even though I doubt it will get one but doesn't hurt to click the request.
Okay after looking at it, i dont see a problem.
1. Character drops weapon as free action. U.S. uses a move action to pick up and a move action to reload. Character uses a move action to take the crossbow. So unless the character saved a move action, he wont get it til next turn and wont be able to full round attack. Also cannot shot it that round.
2. Charcter drops 1 handed firearm. U.S. uses a move action to pick up and then a standard to reload. Character uses a move action to take weapon. All misfire values are increased by 4. Cannot be shot that round.
2.b. Character drops a 2 handed firearm. U.S. uses a move action to pick up. Next round u.s. uses a full round action to reload. Character can use a move action the next round after to retrieve. All misfire values increased by 4.
3. Repeat a. But replace standard with move.
3.b. repeat but instead of full round, it becomes standard.
4. Cant comment. I have an opionion but no idea as far as RAW.
I say its doable but since u have to use a move action to take weapon back, its nice to hold over until they get the rapid reload feat