Goblin Squad Member
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TL;DR: corpse-retrievals in a PvP game are unfun and unproductive, especially to retrieve an (almost) empty corpse. In my proposal, Pharasma will come to your aid.
I have been wondering for a long time if the concept of a corpse retrieval is viable in PFO. I think it is not with the current looting rules (which I will NOT contest). Looting stays the same!!
I give a list of cons and pros, a possible solution and another list of cons and pros. Think yourself a lone harvester, or part of a group that got killed in its entirety. Also keep in mind the current idea of 25% of your non-threaded stuff being destroyed, with the remaining 75% of non-threaded stuff being up for grabs.
Cons:
1) It is an unfun timesink, that most likely kills your gumption for whatever other thing you were doing;
2) The corpseretrieval could potentially be impossible because your bind/respawn point is too far away from your corpse anyway;
3) By going back there is a good chance of returning to your killer(s) with even more bad consequences;
4) Good chance of finding nothing on your corpse: either killer takes all, or they destroy what they can not carry (Steelwings Starvation of Enemy Economy);
5) Is it worth the hassle to go back for stuff that the killer figured of no value;Pro’s:
1) If you go back you may retaliate or get revenge which could be a fun activity; i.e. a corpse could form an incentive for meaningful PvP. I do not see this happening from a lone harvesters point of view though.
2) Creating awarenes with players that they should not wander too far away from any re-spawn point;
3) Creating awareness with players of not going at it alone; though this gives less chance of death, the unfun-ness of corpse retrieval still stays;
With the above cons, I would probably never go back to my corpse, and just take the loss. Corpse recoveries were unfun in Everquest (pure PvE), I can not imagine seeing myself do one ever in PFO.
Possible solution(times mentioned to be tweaked), called PHARASMA’s MERCY:
After you get killed, the corpse opens up for your killer(s) for 3 minutes. After that it it opens up for anyone else (your groupmates, strangers) for another 3 minutes. When those 6 minutes have passed, your corpse poofs, and any item that was left on the corpse gets sent automagically to PHARASMA’s BOX, which is an odd-shaped chest present at all respawn points. If you did not get resurected to your corpse within those 6 minutes by someone, you can check Pharasma’s box at the location you respawned to see if anything was left on the corpse. You can collect any items only at the Box at the location where you respawned, to prevent using this system to get items across distances.
Pro’s:
1) No need to run back if you are alone, can still be resurrected to your corpse in time by surviving groupmates; only wait for 6 minutes at your spawnpoint, check Pharasma’s box and you can go about your business;
2) You do not have to wait untill the 6-minute timer is up: you could go about your business right after you respawned, and collect any possible items from that specific Box at a later time; the Box would only hold items for a certain time though, and a limited amount to avoid people using it as storage;
3) The Potential of MERCY; you may be killed by someone who figured you gave a good fight, or thinks you are an ok guy or whatever: he could decide to take none, or less items then he normally would since he knows you will actually get the rest back, instead of the items rotting or getting looted by a passer by. This is a possible consequence of this feature that I like the most, apart from relieving players of the burden that they may have to go back to their corpse; I think it fits perfectly in a social game.
4) Setback of Death still very much present: you are sent back to your spawn point, threaded items get damaged and you will still lose some, most or all of your items anyway to the killer. Old rules apply here.
5) No possibility for corpse-camping;
6) If you get NO items sent to you in Pharasma’s Box, you could still go for revenge/retaliation if you would;Cons:
1) None as far as I can see, exept development time off course.
Please shoot holes in this as much as possible.
I can see one possibility myself that may make this solution not necessary/unwanted: if GW plans to have at least one respawn point per Hex, which automatically becomes the re-spawnpoint for anyone killed in that hex. That way you are always so close to your corpse that running back/retaliation/re-joining the group-fight is not only possible, but possibly intended. Even then, most of the cons still apply, imo. Having said this, I do not think each hex will have a respawn-point, these would be horribly camped imo.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'm not a big fan of corpse retrievals myself. I played EQ for years, and *everyone* who played that game back in the day has their own NIGHTMARE CR memories. You die in the wrong place you better pray for high levels to help you CR or a necro to come to the zone and summon your corpse for you. Even after all that, you still also needed a cleric to rez you unless you wanted to lose a decent chunk of xp. EQ was also a game where it was really easy to die.
I feel like in this game, the death penalty is high enough without adding the time sink and frustration of a CR on top of it.
I'm willing to give whatever they decide a chance, I just hope that they serve a purpose beyond being arbitrary time sinks and frustrations.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@ Bringslite That's a nice loophole you mentioned there. Thanks. :) Still, you lose 25%, and your threaded items sustain damage, hopefully that is enough deterrent for suicide-gates. I think most people will still take their chance by walking home. Also, you better make sure you suicide with nobody around. :)
I did not know about the multiple bind points, but that would not have to be a problem. I do not know what GW is planning on where you respawn on death.
Keep it coming!
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think a big idea is that dying is a resource sink and that's good for the economy.
I think also the conditions of corpse-retrieval are variable:
1. You'll have more group mates around
2. You'll have more bind points nearer your home tez.
3. Those combined will vary how your corpse is looted or not and how much you decide to put on your corpse to risk knowing where you're going and how many of your mates are with you.
It may mean that defending corpses and calling for more back-up will allow a lot of characters to die but manage to save their corpses and equipment in some scenarios. Other scenarios a nice big fat resource sink occurs due to a botch expedition and that is that!
Seems ok to me if those scenarios are variable and you get a feel for what to risk and how safe you are. And the odd occassion it's even if you get your corpse back or not should be exciting hopefully.
That's the problem with pharasma's box (hmm) it's possibly not accounting for the variable spawn points and how that gameplay could be quite strategic for pfo?
It's definitely a good idea if you assume right and it's tedious corpse-running. Hopefully I think it won't be.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'm not a big fan of corpse retrievals myself. I played EQ for years, and *everyone* who played that game back in the day has their own NIGHTMARE CR memories.
One of my most memorable experiences in that game was playing a Druid shortly after I got Spirit of Wolf. I had no idea what it was, but I saw a big hole in the ground and was trying to inch up to get a better look down. Unfortunately, I didn't think to click off SoW or turn off /run, so I fell in. That's how I discovered The Hole - an end-game level group dungeon. Never got that CR done.
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Goblin Squad Member
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| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I'm not a big fan of corpse retrievals myself. I played EQ for years, and *everyone* who played that game back in the day has their own NIGHTMARE CR memories.One of my most memorable experiences in that game was playing a Druid shortly after I got Spirit of Wolf. I had no idea what it was, but I saw a big hole in the ground and was trying to inch up to get a better look down. Unfortunately, I didn't think to click off SoW or turn off /run, so I fell in. That's how I discovered The Hole - an end-game level group dungeon. Never got that CR done.
Hahaha, as soon as you said "hole in the ground" I knew where that story was heading. At least you were low level and replacing your gear wasn't too horrible.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Except in rare circumstances, there won't be anything of value on the corpse to retrieve.
Yes, I believe this too. I am just looking at ways to relieve the player of the burden of having to even consider doing a corpse recovery. I know I will condition myself to see a death as a complete loss, exept when I know my group is still fighting. Changing loot-rules so more is left on the corpse would not help either, on the contrary: it would only make the burden worse, with all the cons applying.
So how about 50% gets destroyed immediately and 50% can be looted? That would make Dorgans loophole less attractive, especially since you still have to run your suicide courier all the way to the collect-point every time. I do not think Merchants like the idea of trashing 50% of their wares. Also, how much can a single person carry anyway? With 50% being destroyed on death, simply running your goods with a courier may be the better option.
Let us also not forget that Dorgans loophole can be used already anyway for getting threaded items instantly across a distance by suicide-gating to your bindpoint. You have to take the damage then, but still. So I do not think threading will be of much use to use this loophole. So if you make the destroyed-on-death amount big enough, you could sortoff close this loophole, I think.
It may seem harsh to have 50% destroyed on death, but I am working from the assumption that you will not find anything worthwhile on your corpse anyway. It would mean less loot for your killer, but he will still take the most valuable items of what is left anyway.
Death to PvE may be a bit of a problem for some: people may feel they have a much bigger chance to retrieve all 75% on their corpse, and they are probably right. But getting 50% back for sure, as opposed to having to do a (dangerous) corpserun for a possible 75% may still be the better deal. Apart from the fact it is certainly better with a PvP death.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I guess it would depend on the item and whether people are willing to afford the extra markup for safety. Still, I think it is a little harsh to turn up the destroyed items percentage just to solve this particular loophole. It is an extreme penalty that applies to everyone just to coerce a few.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The system already goes to far to make death less of a setback, I don't want anything that makes it easier. I want there to be full corpse looting, no threading, no destruction, maybe some durability loss.
Why do people always want to speed up games and make them easier? All this does is lessen your experience, and shorten the time you will play the game. GW wants you to stay in the game as long as possible.
I used to be one of these people, I wanted games to give you everything you wanted fast. Then I played DCUO, and experienced the entire game and leveled every character within 2 months. I really wanted to play in that world, but it just became so repetitive and boring.
When Ryan said 2 year progression, I was hooked. Nothing about this game should happen fast or easily.
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Goblin Squad Member
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CR is something I've been dreading the most about this game. I really like what you have laid out here. A lot. I feel like dying still sucks in your system, but it won't have me in crybaby tantrums as much as I fear the current system might.
(I do recognize them as tantrums and I do recognize that a lot of people just suck it up and don't have a problem with CR. I'm just not as good of a person as them :( )
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Goblin Squad Member
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It isn't something that would unbalance anything, that I can tell. I am not sure if it would be useful. Not that I would mind getting back some small usually unwanted items and sometimes something good that no one can carry off (for some reason).
From a crafter/merchant player's perspective, I want as much destroyed as I can get. The profits I might make (resupplying people) are worth more than I will likely ever lose. :)
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Goblin Squad Member
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AvenaOats, I missed your post.
I think the mechanics of bindpoints, respawning and resurrection will certainly play some role in this.
I think in an ongoing group-fight, either a corpse will be resurrected within the 6 minutes timeframe (tbd) or it will poof and items left on it will go to Pharasma's Box. If the spawn-point is really near, the victim can quickly run back to his corpse and retrieve items. The victim will have to make a judgment call if he wants to wait for any items to appear in the Box(and waiting for a rez-to-corpse maybe), but I think he will always opt for directly going back to the fight again if the spawnpoint is near enough. Threaded items will still be on him anyway. If he is too late to check his corpse (it poofed) he can check Pharasma's Box later.
It will be upon the killer to loot that corpse as quickly as possible, before it poofs or the owner returns from a nearby spawnpoint. I don't think this is necessarily a bad thing: it will create an urgency for both the would-be looter to loot quickly, and the ally of the victim to defend his corpse and prevent it from being looted long enough untill it poofs or untill the owner returns(within 6 minutes).
@ Dorgan The amount-to-be-destroyed could be tweaked off course. If it is indeed only a handfull of occasions that people will use this method to quickly get a few items across, then increasing that percentage may not be necessary. Don't forget that you first have to get your Alt (this sounds like a typical Alt-loophole) to the collect point, which may be a dangerous undertaking in itself (sending him back prematurely to his bindpoint).
I guess you could anticipate something silly as two friendly Settlements having a legion of naked Alts parked in town, with their bindpoint in the other town, ready to get mass-slaughtered in order to quickly get some crucial resources to the other Settlement, at the cost of at least 25% destruction, and having to re-locate them back again off course.
To be honest, I love that sort of meta-gaming but I agree it should not happen at the cost of the intended systems, which are off course real couriers and caravans. :)
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Goblin Squad Member
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The system already goes to far to make death less of a setback, I don't want anything that makes it easier. I want there to be full corpse looting, no threading, no destruction, maybe some durability
Any crafters, merchants or harvesters would love this system if they knew how good it would be for them.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The system already goes to far to make death less of a setback, I don't want anything that makes it easier. I want there to be full corpse looting, no threading, no destruction, maybe some durability loss.
Why do people always want to speed up games and make them easier? All this does is lessen your experience, and shorten the time you will play the game. GW wants you to stay in the game as long as possible.
I used to be one of these people, I wanted games to give you everything you wanted fast. Then I played DCUO, and experienced the entire game and leveled every character within 2 months. I really wanted to play in that world, but it just became so repetitive and boring.
When Ryan said 2 year progression, I was hooked. Nothing about this game should happen fast or easily.
I agree, harshness is not always a bad thing.
The system already goes to far to make death less of a setback, I don't want anything that makes it easier. I want there to be full corpse looting, no threading, no destruction, maybe some durabilityAny crafters, merchants or harvesters would love this system if they knew how good it would be for them.
Full loot would be great for merchants, that is one reason I liked the original comment.
I want there to be full corpse looting, no threading, no destruction, maybe some durability loss.And I'm very glad you won't get what you want :)
While I am not against Valkenr's ideal, it would not suprise me that a good number of subscribers would. With that in mind I admit on the front end that full loot would likely be a bad design choice. I don't expect it to make it into the game, obviously. The harsher elements already confirmed in the game unsettles some potential customers. Putting all their gear on the line could likely be over the line.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I agree that I hate the time-consuming possibly pointlessness of corpse-retrieval, but that is the bloody point.
I will also remind, GW WANTS it to take a VERY long time to do things (within reason ofc). I agree that corpse retrieval is meh and I probably won't do it, however, the concept of shortening time to do things, adding shortcuts, etc. is, loopholes for item transportation aside, just plain contrary to the image of PFO that I feel has been painted by the GW crew.
On a side note:
What about making raw materials/inventory only (non-equipable) items unthreadable? obviously a few exceptions can be made for select items, but the general idea stands, and makes sense.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The system already goes to far to make death less of a setback, I don't want anything that makes it easier. I want there to be full corpse looting, no threading, no destruction, maybe some durabilityAny crafters, merchants or harvesters would love this system if they knew how good it would be for them.
They would want corpse destruction. Nothing would be retrievable.
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Goblin Squad Member
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In Darkfall, every item you carry can be looted if you die. Since killing a single, fully equipped character is a much better source of getting good gear than grinding your way through dungeons or doing the resource harvesting/crafting cycle, it quickly became the norm for small groups to prey on anyone who dared to leave the safe confines of a city wearing decent gear. The result was that players started to play naked characters with a concentration on spells instead of items to do damage and the whole player economy and PvE adventure content died.
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Goblin Squad Member
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In Darkfall, every item you carry can be looted if you die. Since killing a single, fully equipped character is a much better source of getting good gear than grinding your way through dungeons or doing the resource harvesting/crafting cycle, it quickly became the norm for small groups to prey on anyone who dared to leave the safe confines of a city wearing decent gear. The result was that players started to play naked characters with a concentration on spells instead of items to do damage and the whole player economy and PvE adventure content died.
It is neither here nor there in so far as PfO goes, but I am not sure if the result is the fault of full looting or the fact that you can find a loop hole to avoid loss.
Would the same fall in the player market occur if magic also depended on a relatively equal loot investment?
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Goblin Squad Member
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In Darkfall, every item you carry can be looted if you die. Since killing a single, fully equipped character is a much better source of getting good gear than grinding your way through dungeons or doing the resource harvesting/crafting cycle, it quickly became the norm for small groups to prey on anyone who dared to leave the safe confines of a city wearing decent gear. The result was that players started to play naked characters with a concentration on spells instead of items to do damage and the whole player economy and PvE adventure content died.
I used to wear the best armor I could make (3rd tier or maybe 4th) and the same for my weapons.
On DF, you had to make 150 of each tier to grind crafting prowess, "naked" wasn't really naked, but was whatever armor / weapon you had 10 or more sets of.
In PFO, "naked" will be wearing the highest tier gear you can wear and still thread. It really isn't all that different from DF or EvE ( only fly what you can afford to lose).
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Goblin Squad Member
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No matter the game or real life, there is a prevailing concept in state-level society wherein conflicts occur. At heart, most people have a form of pseudo-capitalism once they reach the level of social stratification we are currently experiencing.
polysyllables aside: basically people are going to find loopholes and ways to secure their goods. Ain't nothing can stop that, and nothing is perfect. Thus, we need to focus not on the game system in this sense, as Bluddwolf points out this is a common theme everywhere. What we need to focus on, then, is adhering to the guidelines GW and staying "true" to the motives of the game. If something arises that needs work on, then let arise and be worked on. I feel this discussion, much like the SAD discussion, is arguing a point that has yet to physically arrive and give proof to one side or the other.
I'm not really saying much new or contributing, just pointing out (as Ryan has said) that people will always find loopholes, and we have no proof that the current system is bad or good. It seems to work, if a bit flawed, so why not let it run the race and see where it comes out at eh?
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Goblin Squad Member
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In Darkfall, every item you carry can be looted if you die. Since killing a single, fully equipped character is a much better source of getting good gear than grinding your way through dungeons or doing the resource harvesting/crafting cycle, it quickly became the norm for small groups to prey on anyone who dared to leave the safe confines of a city wearing decent gear. The result was that players started to play naked characters with a concentration on spells instead of items to do damage and the whole player economy and PvE adventure content died.
I hate to contradict Ryan, but I went against an equal mix of full armor/gear types and "naked" spell casters. The usual "ganker" was a skirmisher (leather armor).
I went naked as a gatherer to maximize load and to lose less, until I had the skills to fight AND pay the bills. Then I went armored up warrior.
As a crafter, I paid my feat/crafting costs building Dreadplate. Always a market. Not even "clan crafted" and I sold 1 or maybe 2 sets each day, once I just put it in the market and gave up "chat hawking".
I think that he was describing what it was like for a period of time. When I played, it was an "ok" market for crafted stuff and most went about pretty well geared.
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Goblin Squad Member
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There has been a desire for a high level of immersion and actions have consequence, so just to toss something out here as an alternative for Corpse Retrieval: don't allow it. Have character death be permanent (no resurrection methods). I don't believe PFO would travel down this path, but it is an idea. The corpse would therefore be a different character making "retrieval" impossible.
The corpse would be fully loot able to any character that can loot it. Gear would suffer durability loss in usage, and not require a death event to trigger it. No "Destroy Item" button would exist, since it doesn't in real life, but a "toss away action" or "convert to materials" could. Having only the game destroy objects (item, corpse, etc ...) adds a bit of processing overhead, but timers could be used to account for how long something would persist.
Accounts would only have one character on them to play. When the character dies it no longer is selectable and the Account would be required to create a new character. The dead character would last until persistence timer has expired (freeing up the character name). An account with the Destiny's Twin feature would have a skill point tracking object named DT_SkillPoints and instead of the newly created character having zero skill points, it would have skill points equal to the object, and the object's skill point counter would be reset to zero.
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Goblin Squad Member
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| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
There has been a desire for a high level of immersion and actions have consequence, so just to toss something out here as an alternative for Corpse Retrieval: don't allow it. Have character death be permanent (no resurrection methods). I don't believe PFO would travel down this path, but it is an idea. The corpse would therefore be a different character making "retrieval" impossible.
The corpse would be fully loot able to any character that can loot it. Gear would suffer durability loss in usage, and not require a death event to trigger it. No "Destroy Item" button would exist, since it doesn't in real life, but a "toss away action" or "convert to materials" could. Having only the game destroy objects (item, corpse, etc ...) adds a bit of processing overhead, but timers could be used to account for how long something would persist.
Accounts would only have one character on them to play. When the character dies it no longer is selectable and the Account would be required to create a new character. The dead character would last until persistence timer has expired (freeing up the character name). An account with the Destiny's Twin feature would have a skill point tracking object named DT_SkillPoints and instead of the newly created character having zero skill points, it would have skill points equal to the object, and the object's skill point counter would be reset to zero.
I don't think permadeath would be very popular. In fact I would go so far as to state that in my opinion it would keep a lot of people from trying the game.
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Goblin Squad Member
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There has been a desire for a high level of immersion and actions have consequence, so just to toss something out here as an alternative for Corpse Retrieval: don't allow it. Have character death be permanent (no resurrection methods). I don't believe PFO would travel down this path, but it is an idea. The corpse would therefore be a different character making "retrieval" impossible.
The corpse would be fully loot able to any character that can loot it. Gear would suffer durability loss in usage, and not require a death event to trigger it. No "Destroy Item" button would exist, since it doesn't in real life, but a "toss away action" or "convert to materials" could. Having only the game destroy objects (item, corpse, etc ...) adds a bit of processing overhead, but timers could be used to account for how long something would persist.
Accounts would only have one character on them to play. When the character dies it no longer is selectable and the Account would be required to create a new character. The dead character would last until persistence timer has expired (freeing up the character name). An account with the Destiny's Twin feature would have a skill point tracking object named DT_SkillPoints and instead of the newly created character having zero skill points, it would have skill points equal to the object, and the object's skill point counter would be reset to zero.
As long as being killed or dying by any means is common and easy, then permadeath will never be a popular condition except for those that voluntarily choose permadeath themselves.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Full loot would go against the idea of creating a market for crafting, this is why they implemented 25% destruction, I believe. Items need to leave the economy. Transmuting items back into ingredients would impair the harvesting market, I think they said they are most likely not going that way. Selling all the excess loot to NPC vendors may cause gold-inflation.
Permanent death is not really what we are discussing here. I think you will end up with a playerbase of 5k and the game will stop getting updates but I could be wrong. :) Wizardry from SOE had a perm-death system, rather unpopular game that is closing its doors exactly 1.5 years after it went live. I think the market for perm-death roleplaying games is minuscule.
I am also not agreeing at all with the arguments where people think that GW wants "to take things a long time". Do you guys get this from the fact that character development is linked to a real-time system of XP accumulation? There are clear reasons for that, avoiding a steep powercurve, which would leave new players in the dust more and more once the game matures.
Ryans latest statement about how long travel "hops" will take, gives me the firm idea that Ryan is not at all in "wanting to take things a LONG time". He figures travel should take 10-15 increments of time, to be tweaked heavily during EE for "fun, not physics".
I am an old school Everquest player and have some fond memories of a few corpse recoveries, because of the social aspect of it(asking help from a Necro, that sort of thing) but in EQ your corpse was everything: it contained all the fruits of your labor and you knew you would all get it back if you retrieved your corpse. Also a lot safer to do so. They also did away with corpseretrievals there and I am glad they did.
In PFO most corpseretrievals are going to be a frustrating and probably pointless experience. It seems to me that in PFO there are tens if not hundreds of other reasons and motivations to engage in a meaningfull activity, both PvP and non-PvP. I think a corpse retrieval is not one of them and will prove to be counterproductive for a players will to keep playing that evening.