PFS Mystic Theurge


Advice

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Shadow Lodge

Hello Fellow Paizonian Gamers!

Since I will be GMing a lot in PFS recently, and I want to play my low level characters instead of credit them up, I will be having a 3rd-4th level PC made entirely from GM-babying up in levels pretty soon. So I wanted to try an Early Entry Mystic Theurge.

The concept I came up with was this:He is a slightly insane Cleric/Wizard of Nethys, who will be trying to heal and aid his friends 1/2 the time, and crush all who is in his path and kill things with fire the other half, for through his studies of magic and religion he has found the Maddening Paradox that exist between the two.

Mechanically I want to be an Blast/Support character, using clerical resources to support and wizardly resources to blast. I want to make use of the Theurgy feat, and find a way to enter at level 4 [one of them I figure will be me being an Aasimar of some variation, and the other I'm not sure on]. I do realize that Sorcerer/Oracle would be more optimal, but Cleric/Wizard is more thematic so I would prefer to stick to that. I might change my mind, but for now I'd prefer to stick with it.

So, for advice I was wondering:

How useful is the feat Theurgy?

Would Separatist be worth it for the Trickery domain so I have an early-entry SLA?

What race with an SLA would be the best for this? I'm thinking going Idylkin Aasimar for SNA, but the stat bonuses don't exactly agree with Wizard/Cleric.

What are some good feats to take other than Theurgy? I figure probably Spell Focus[Evocation] will be the free SF from Wizard.

What are some good spells for a Blast/Support character?

Is Blast/Support a viable path for a Mystic Theurge?

Any other good Advice/Suggestions for this character?


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Half-Elf Feat (Drow Magic) - Darkness.
Drow (Spell-Like Abilities) - Darkness.
Tiefling (Spell-Like Ability) - Darkness.
Duergar (Spell-Like Abilities) - Invisibility.
Svirfneblin (Svirfneblin Magic) - Blur.
Aasimar (Angel-Blooded) - Alter Self.
Aasimar (Archon-Blooded) - Continual Flame.
Aasimar (Azata-Blooded) - Glitterdust.
Aasimar (Garuda-Blooded) - See Invisibility.
Aasimar (Peri-Blooded) - Pyrotechnics.
Tiefling (Asura-Spawn) - Hideous Laughter.
Tiefling (Demodand-Spawn) - Bear’s Endurance.
Tiefling (Demon-Spawn) - Shatter.
Tiefling (Devil-Spawn) - Pyrotechnics.
Tiefling (Div-Spawn) - Misdirection.
Tiefling (Kyton-Spawn) - Web.
Tiefling (Oni-Spawn) - Alter Self.
Tiefling (Qlippoth-Spawn) - Blur.
Tiefling (Rakshasa-Spawn) - Detect Thoughts.
Qinggong Monk at 4th level - Scorching Ray.
Drow Feat (Spider Step) - Spider Climb.

Divine
Aasimar (Incorruptible) - Corruption Resistance.
Aasimar (Agathion-Blooded) - Summon Nature’s Ally II.
Tiefling (Daemon-Spawn) - Death Knell.
Oracle (Wood) - Wood Shape or Warp Wood.
Qinggong Monk at 4th level - Augury and Barkskin.
Trickery Domain - Mirror Image.
Fate Inquisition - Augury.
Aasimar Feat at 3rd level (Heavenly Radiance) - Wake of Light. think a blast support should be viable, justmake your blast levels higher, and probably magical knack it.

Otherwise, don't have too much advice. I had thought about making a theurge for pfs when the early entry rules came out, but made an eldritch knight instead.

As for blasting I know some spell lime mages tatttoo and spell specialization are really very powerful. If you add one of the +1 trait bonuses too you can be rocking 9d6 fireballs by level 5 as a wizard. Some people recommend a dip in sorcerer (tattooed sorcerer/crossblooded orc/draconic) to gets mages tattoo free and add +2 to damage per elemental dice rolled. But be wary, I'm not sure that combo is legal.

Here is a list I pulled from the early entry guide with all the 2nd level sla's so you can make an informed decision(note many of these aren't pfs legal)

Shadow Lodge

@Under A Bleeding Sun:Thanks for the list! I had forgotten about Perikin having an Arcane SLA, but that certainly seems like it will be better for this character. Probably going to go Separatist for trickery in the way of divine [which I think is what they are going with for now, it seems to fluctuate]. In the way of blasting, I will be skipping the sorcerer dip since it really will hurt more than help, delaying my progression by a good bit. Thanks for the feat advice. I plan on taking magical knack, but I'm undecided about whether to go Wiz2/Cler1/MTx with Magical Knack wizard or Wiz1/Cler2/MTx with magical knack wizard.


Agh, sorry about that post formatting, I was on my phone! It looks all messed up.

I'd probably go with Wiz2/Cler1/MTx with Magical Knack wizard just so you gain your higher level wizard slots one level earlier. Obviously the other way gives you more mileage though out of magical knack.


Heard a rumor that this has been FAQ somewhere to prevent this. Just wasn't sure what got FAQ but it was thought that (Spell-Like Abilities) did not count for meeting the requirements as they are not spells.

So does someone knows more about this?

Dark Archive

The FAQ was that SLAs do count as casting for prereqs. For MTs I am partial to wood oracle/sorcerers for the cha synergy and I like the spontaneous mechanic. For the race go half elf and drow magic alt racial trait for darkness sla. Then pick up paragon surge and be the magic jack of all trades, casting whatever you need for the situation at hand, chosen at a moment's notice. From there, you have the entire rest of your build to play with for blasting and support. Pick the best buffs of both lists. Take feats that augment both of your castings. I am partial to summoning off of both lists with s.f. conjuration and the augment lines. Theurgy can be really nice for keeping your dcs relevant. Maybe go with blackened curse to get burning hands on both of your lists and load on the metamagic. For your sorcerer bloodline I like draconic with the varisian archetype.


Matt2VK wrote:

Heard a rumor that this has been FAQ somewhere to prevent this. Just wasn't sure what got FAQ but it was thought that (Spell-Like Abilities) did not count for meeting the requirements as they are not spells.

So does someone knows more about this?

Quite the opposite, actually, as ARGH! pointed out..


Nice to know.

:)

Maybe I'll give it a try in making one too.

Shadow Lodge

So, taking a crack at it, how does this look?

Casty McSpellsalot:
Emberkin Separatist1/Wizard2/Mystic Theurge1
Stats:
Str7
Dex12
Con12
Int18
Wis16
Cha12

Class Features:
Spells
Orisons
Copycat 6/day
Recall 6/day
Aura [1HD]
Channel Energy 4/day 1d6 DC11
Spells
Cantrips
Arcane Bond[???]
Hand of the Apprentice 7/day
Combined Spells[1st]

Feats:
1:Spell Focus[Evocation]
1:Spell Specialization[???]
3:Theurgy

Cleric Spells often prepared ones only
0:Light
0:Create Water
0:Detect Magic
0:Stabilize
1:Murderous Command
1:Bless
1:Protection from Evil
1:Disguise Self[domain]

Wizard Spells often prepared ones only
0:Read Magic
0:Acid Splash
0:Ray of Frost
0:Dancing Lights
1:Magic Missile
1:Ear-Piercing Scream
1:Burning Hands
2:Scorching Ray
2:Mirror Image

Traits:
Reactionary???
Magical Knack[Wizard]

HP:23
AC:12[10+1Dex+1Haramaki/Silken Ceremonial]
CMB:-1[+1BAB-2Str]
CMD:10[-2Str+1BAB+1Dex+10]
Skills:
Knowledge[Arcana]+11
Knowledge[Religion]+11
Knowledge[Local]+11
Knowledge[Nature]+9[FCB Here]
Knowledge[Planes]+11
Spellcraft+11
Knowledge[Dungeoneering]+11

I'm thinking of having scrolls of Mage Armour and eventually Blur as well for more defenses. The Spells listed are not all prepared each day, but I will most likely have multiples of at least 1 of them each day.

Still need some advice, on feats[beyond this point I have no idea], traits, Arcane Bond, and what spells to specialize in. I wanted to be an Admixturist wizard, but I can't decide what schools to sacrifice. Thoughts?

Dark Archive

If you are aiming for blaster support and are choosing cleric and wizard, you pretty much have to do wizard for blasting and clerk for support. As you said, Sorceror and oracle are better here in these respective roles since both specialize and refine those specialties more easily.

You are going to need something like Arcane Armor Training if you intend to capitalize on the armor proficiency. However, it directly interferes with the use of Theurgy for modifying arcane spells with divine energy.

You may be better served simply learning mage armor rather than wasting money on it and wasting a turn on it each combat. Lasts for hours per caster level. 25 gp per combat will start to add up. And any combat that you have to cast it is a combat where you are likely not blasting and not supporting. Why? Because by the time you get to the support or blasting, it is already round two or three. Worse if you are like many casters and have low perception and are caught by surprise. Your chosen skills are proving my point.

If you simply set aside one of you many spell slots for mage armor and cast it before entering a dungeon and/or at the start of each day, or before camping for the night, you will likely never have to consider it during combat, it will be there.

It frees up your first action to very efficiently determine if you are supporting or blasting. It becomes a staple as your levels increase because the duration increases by +1 hour.

I cannot suggest schools to sacrifice except maybe divination. Doesn't seem to have anything to do with your build so it's safe to lose. You also get back divinations from the cleric list if you reeeally want to augury or something. I would also consider losing transmutation or enchantment since the bulk of your buffs are likely coming from the divine spells and almost all of your blasts are coming from arcane. It organizes your slots and you don't really lose much due to your focus on blasting.

I have not read too much into arcane bond and honestly have never played as a pure caster in pathfinder yet. So don't trust my suggestions. But the ability to get an extra spell seems frivolous on a theurge. You will have so many.

I recently made my first caster who is themed much like yours (but way more narrowmindedly focused). She may give you ideas as this thread has given me new things to consider. The link is here. Until now, I had no idea that the Theurgy feat existed. So at least one of us has benefited. :)

Shadow Lodge

Dark Immortal wrote:
If you are aiming for blaster support and are choosing cleric and wizard, you pretty much have to do wizard for blasting and clerk for support. As you said, Sorceror and oracle are better here in these respective roles since both specialize and refine those specialties more easily.
Yeah, Sorcerer/Oracle is more specialized, but I'd prefer getting faster access to spells over being more focused on one thing. Cleric/Wizard gets the faster access and manages to completely re-prepare each day, to fulfill certain needs [I've seen this come into play before].
Quote:

You are going to need something like Arcane Armor Training if you intend to capitalize on the armor proficiency. However, it directly interferes with the use of Theurgy for modifying arcane spells with divine energy.

You may be better served simply learning mage armor rather than wasting money on it and wasting a turn on it each combat. Lasts for hours per caster level. 25 gp per combat will start to add up. And any combat that you have to cast it is a combat where you are likely not blasting and not supporting. Why? Because by the time you get to the support or blasting, it is already round two or three. Worse if you are like many casters and have low perception and are caught by surprise. Your chosen skills are proving my point.

Well, I don't really plan on using medium/heavy armour. I figure I'd stick with scrolls and Haramaki armour to keep things going. Possibly buy a wand. I will probably have Mage Armour in my spellbook, and at higher levels, I might keep around an extend metamagic rod to get nearly full-day armour at the exchange of a spell slot. I think I'll pass on AAT, since it does interfere with Theurgy, which seems like a great buff to blasting.
Quote:

I cannot suggest schools to sacrifice except maybe divination. Doesn't seem to have anything to do with your build so it's safe to lose. You also get back divinations from the cleric list if you reeeally want to augury or something. I would also consider losing transmutation or enchantment since the bulk of your buffs are likely coming from the divine spells and almost all of your blasts are coming from arcane. It organizes your slots and you don't really lose much due to your focus on blasting.

I have not read too much into arcane bond and honestly have never played as a pure caster in pathfinder yet. So don't trust my suggestions. But the ability to get an extra spell seems frivolous on a theurge. You will have so many.

Thanks for the Divination advice, I hadn't thought of that. I was thinking Enchantment and Necromancy, but Necromancy has some of the best spells for a full caster [False Life, Spectral Hand, Vampiric Touch, etc.] so I was reluctant. Divination seems to have very few non-cleric spells that are useful. For the Arcane Bond, I was thinking that IIRC, a wizard in PFS can still get the 1/2 price on the item, so I was wondering if an Amulet[eventually of natural fists] or Ring[of soon to be Invisibility] might be worth getting cheaper[or other magical i0tem], and if it would be more useful than the +4 Initiative from a familiar.


I have a MT that specialized in conjuration and opposed divination and abjuration thinking the cleric spells would cover those schools. The only spell I miss is stoneskin.

You might consider going 3 levels of wiz and familiar instead of arcane bond. It can deliver touch spell buffs while you stay well out of combat.

What do you plan to do with the feat Theurgy? Unless you have really strong resons for it, I would suggest dropping it for the following reasons:

1) I find my MT to be very feat starved (though I did manage to sneak in leadership and improved familiar.) If you are going for blaster (which an MT can certainly do) I expect you will want intensify, empower, and maximize. Maybe dazing as well depending on if you want to use your money for rods.

2) The real joy of having an MT is the abundance of spell slots and that will go away if you start using two slots to cast most of your spells.

3) I don't play PFS so I have always wondered if you can join a spell caster guild in PFS as detailed in the Inner Seas book. If it is allowed you will get a much better bonus to your caster levels that may not stack.

Shadow Lodge

Melvin the Mediocre wrote:
You might consider going 3 levels of wiz and familiar instead of arcane bond. It can deliver touch spell buffs while you stay well out of combat.
Well, 3 levels would be great, but I would miss out on more Cleric caster levels, which will already be behind, and I still want a decent healing capability.
Quote:
What do you plan to do with the feat Theurgy? Unless you have really strong resons for it, I would suggest dropping it for the following reasons:
Well, along with some of the things you listing not being much of an issue for me, I was going to use it to augment blasting so that I always did damage on a hit, even against enemies with massive resistances and immunities [I've seen foes with resist against 3 different elements and immunity to the fourth], along with using it occasionally to help with things like round/level buffs on divine spells.
Quote:
1) I find my MT to be very feat starved (though I did manage to sneak in leadership and improved familiar.) If you are going for blaster (which an MT can certainly do) I expect you will want intensify, empower, and maximize. Maybe dazing as well depending on if you want to use your money for rods.
I don't really see myself as feat-starved, since Empower will only really be useful on Fireball at higher levels and possibly burning hands at some point[though I wouldn't use that as a main tactic until around 8ish, when I can see it being a significant boost for the level increase], and Dazing and Empower I honestly see as being much more useful in rods [and I will probably have an Intensify rod as well], to keep the levels down.
Quote:
2) The real joy of having an MT is the abundance of spell slots and that will go away if you start using two slots to cast most of your spells.
It won't really be a binary feat, that is to say, it won't always be used, but I will use it when it seems most of the spells I prepared aren't going to be of much use [like my Domain spell, which is situational and comes in a hat]. Its mostly a bit of a backup plan for monsters that happen to be immune to a bunch of different things.
Quote:
3) I don't play PFS so I have always wondered if you can join a spell caster guild in PFS as detailed in the Inner Seas book. If it is allowed you will get a much better bonus to your caster levels that may not stack.

I do not believe you can join a spellcaster guild in PFS [can't recall which of the inner seas books its in, but I have always just skimmed over it].

Shadow Lodge

Bump?

Shadow Lodge

ArmouredMonk13 wrote:
Bump?

Final Bump?

Silver Crusade

I just played a session with a 7th level PFS Mystic Theurge. That character was quite effective, and always had the right spell for the situation. I believe it was a Cleric-2/Sorcerer-1/Mystic Theurge 4


Can someone explain how a L2 Wizard/L1 Cleric has access to L2 spells in both arcane and divine?

Silver Crusade

The link above explains it. Last fall the devs announced a FAQ that officially makes Spell Like Abilities count as spells that one can cast. This allows early entry to a few prestige classes, such as Mystic Theurge. This subtracts 3 levels of caster-level gimping from the Mystic Theurge and makes them viable. They're still not over-powered, but now they are viable.


Thanks. That explains the Level 1 class getting Level 2 spells, but how does the Level 2 class get Level 2 spells?

Sczarni

take for instance an oracle that has augury as a SLA from a mystery, and a diviner wizard (clairaudience).... now without any racial issues, you have oracle2/wiz1 early entry without caring about what race you picked.

Shadow Lodge

Sarrah wrote:
Can someone explain how a L2 Wizard/L1 Cleric has access to L2 spells in both arcane and divine?

Well, an Emberkin Aasimar with the Trickery Domain can have Pyrotechnics as a Lv2 Arcane spell and Copycat as a level 2 Divine spell, due to this FAQ.

As to my build, I changed the stats around to

Str8
Dex12
Con12
Int18
Wis16
Cha10

for more carrying capacity, as even with minimum gear I was overloaded. Still looking for advice as to future feats [beyond getting Intensify probably at around 7], traits, and good support cleric spells. Also, anyone have any advice with the Lock Gaze spell? I really like the flavor of it, but am afraid that it will just compel monsters to kill me first, and I will have an extra-strength dose of Squishy Caster Syndrome for low levels.


lantzkev wrote:
take for instance an oracle that has augury as a SLA from a mystery, and a diviner wizard (clairaudience).... now without any racial issues, you have oracle2/wiz1 early entry without caring about what race you picked.

There are at least two oracle mysteries that get augury at level 1 (Ancestor and Lore). Why not become a mystic theurge after oracle1/wiz1?


Unfortunately both of them are Supernatural and so do not qualify for Mystic Theurge requirements.


You need three ranks in two separate knowledge skills, so you can't get into MT before level 4. So you could do oracle1/wiz1/ranger1,.... but you need that third skill point.


Thank you Orfamay Quest - I forgot about the skill rank requirement.

FAQ wrote:
For spell-like abilities gained from a class, use the spell type (arcane or divine) of that class to determine whether the spell-like ability is arcane or divine. If the class doesn't cast spells, use the above rule for spell-like abilities from race or type.

I was doing a little research last night and found Oracle (wind) has invisibility, which is normally a Level 2 arcane spell. According to the FAQ would this be considered a level two divine spell?

Silver Crusade

Sarrah wrote:
lantzkev wrote:
take for instance an oracle that has augury as a SLA from a mystery, and a diviner wizard (clairaudience).... now without any racial issues, you have oracle2/wiz1 early entry without caring about what race you picked.
There are at least two oracle mysteries that get augury at level 1 (Ancestor and Lore). Why not become a mystic theurge after oracle1/wiz1?

There are skill requirements too. So level 4 is the absolute earliest one can get in.

Note that there have been various rumblings recently that the early entry via SLA may change.

James Jacobs


Nope, it is again a Supernatural ability so doesn't count for Mystic Theurge. If it was an SLA it would count as divine.


pauljathome wrote:
Sarrah wrote:
lantzkev wrote:
take for instance an oracle that has augury as a SLA from a mystery, and a diviner wizard (clairaudience).... now without any racial issues, you have oracle2/wiz1 early entry without caring about what race you picked.
There are at least two oracle mysteries that get augury at level 1 (Ancestor and Lore). Why not become a mystic theurge after oracle1/wiz1?

There are skill requirements too. So level 4 is the absolute earliest one can get in.

Note that there have been various rumblings recently that the early entry via SLA may change.

James Jacobs

Well that will cause chaos and in a completely unnecessary way given early entry into otherwise weak PrC's is about as far from game breaking as it is possible to be without being Prone Shooter.

Liberty's Edge

AM13 I was looking to do something very similar for my new GM credit character. Divine for support (Anvil role) and arcane for blasting (Hammer role), so he can switch back and forth at need depending upon who sits down at the table.

To me a blaster seems like it will normally be taking the same spells most of the time. So a sorcerer seems to make more sense. Plus the Empryeal bloodline lets me use wisdom as the casting stat to match with cleric casting stat. Then I have both a spontaneous caster (for spamming common spells) and a prepared caster for making the special situation spell list. Puts a little bit farther behind on spell levels, but I think it is worth it to get a single casting stat and spammable blast spells. But I can also understand why you might not want to do that.

I would suggest using both ant haul and mage armor pretty much every day. You will have enough low level spell slots after just a few levels that you will never feel the loss and it will bump your armor class a bit and let you carry 3 times as much stuff.

I would pick the opposed schools from enchantment, divination, and transmutation.

I would not pick too many meta-magic feats. PFS only goes to level 12 (mostly) and you will be behind a straight caster in max level spells anyway. So trying to pile up a bunch of meta-magic feats will restrict you to even lower level spells. Plus I prefer the ones that make sure you manage to affect a creature more than ones that just add some damage. So I like persistent and bouncing better than empower and maximize. (You can always pick up a rod of empower or maximize.)

However, if you have the feats for it, greater spell penetration and greater spell focus do not increase the spell level and make you most likely to affect anything possible.

I am ambivalent on the arcane bond vs. familiar. I have seen both be extremely useful in PFS and home games. Improved familiars can be scouts (your table might not have anyone with stealth) and/or buffing wand monkeys. But recalling the perfect spell and 1/2 price for a your best magic items is also very good.


pauljathome wrote:
Sarrah wrote:
lantzkev wrote:
take for instance an oracle that has augury as a SLA from a mystery, and a diviner wizard (clairaudience).... now without any racial issues, you have oracle2/wiz1 early entry without caring about what race you picked.
There are at least two oracle mysteries that get augury at level 1 (Ancestor and Lore). Why not become a mystic theurge after oracle1/wiz1?

There are skill requirements too. So level 4 is the absolute earliest one can get in.

Note that there have been various rumblings recently that the early entry via SLA may change.

James Jacobs

Ugh. While I agree that only using certain races to cheese the entry requirements is FAR from ideal, I hope they see the number of threads about Mystic Theurges as indicating a certain demand for the dual-caster concept. Ideally, the class would receive a change to allow for an Arcane2/Divine2 entry, which I think is probably the best balance point to maintain playability throughout the entire campaign.

Liberty's Edge

Posting in this build's first-level Alias, wondering what everyone thinks of it. For those of you unfamiliar with the forums, just click my name and you should see my character profile.

My PFS Lavode De'Morcaine wrote:

AM13 I was looking to do something very similar for my new GM credit character. Divine for support (Anvil role) and arcane for blasting (Hammer role), so he can switch back and forth at need depending upon who sits down at the table.

To me a blaster seems like it will normally be taking the same spells most of the time. So a sorcerer seems to make more sense. Plus the Empryeal bloodline lets me use wisdom as the casting stat to match with cleric casting stat. Then I have both a spontaneous caster (for spamming common spells) and a prepared caster for making the special situation spell list. Puts a little bit farther behind on spell levels, but I think it is worth it to get a single casting stat and spammable blast spells. But I can also understand why you might not want to do that.

I would suggest using both ant haul and mage armor pretty much every day. You will have enough low level spell slots after just a few levels that you will never feel the loss and it will bump your armor class a bit and let you carry 3 times as much stuff.

I would pick the opposed schools from enchantment, divination, and transmutation.

I would not pick too many meta-magic feats. PFS only goes to level 12 (mostly) and you will be behind a straight caster in max level spells anyway. So trying to pile up a bunch of meta-magic feats will restrict you to even lower level spells. Plus I prefer the ones that make sure you manage to affect a creature more than ones that just add some damage. So I like persistent and bouncing better than empower and maximize. (You can always pick up a rod of empower or maximize.)

However, if you have the feats for it, greater spell penetration and greater spell focus do not increase the spell level and make you most likely to affect anything possible.

I am ambivalent on the arcane bond vs. familiar. I have seen both be extremely useful in PFS and home games. Improved familiars can be scouts (your table might not have anyone with stealth) and/or buffing wand monkeys. But recalling the...

Thanks for the advice!

I like the Empyreal Sorcerer+Cleric combo, but I don't like waiting until level 5 for 1st level spells [I will actually have to play this before he comes "online", and in-fact, might be playing him at level 1 in a couple of days], and I want to have the versatility to become a full-on buffer instead of a buff/blast character, in the event a dedicated blaster is at the table, because he will be superior. I was planning on taking Intensify Spell around 7ish, but beyond that I was going to skip Metamagic Feats in exchange for rods. Thanks for the advice on GSF and SP/GSP, I had almost completely forgotten about those.

I had forgotten about a few things, namely the extra Wizard Spell from specializing, and the Ant Haul spell as a thing, so I probably will eventually be walking all day long with an Extended version of each [through rod], and find something else worth Extending.

Also, I am gonna go with an Item for the Bond, since the familiar doesn't scale with level nearly as well. Not sure on what to go with, but I'm thinking maybe ring. What might the best 1/2 price item be though?


There are three general builds for MT:
1) play whatever you want with no specific focus: most people think of this build when they think MT: this build is meh at best.

2) choose a focus and aim both your divine and arcane classes towards this focus: buffing, blasting, summoning, etc.: this build is usually better than a straight class character.

3) choose to focus on either arcane or divine and use the other classes slots for more spells / day: this build is usually better than a straight class character.


Under A Bleeding Sun wrote:

Divine

Aasimar (Incorruptible) - Corruption Resistance.
Aasimar (Agathion-Blooded) - Summon Nature’s Ally II.
Tiefling (Daemon-Spawn) - Death Knell.
Oracle (Wood) - Wood Shape or Warp Wood.
Qinggong Monk at 4th level - Augury and Barkskin.
Trickery Domain - Mirror Image.
Fate Inquisition - Augury.
Aasimar Feat at 3rd level (Heavenly Radiance) - Wake of Light. think a blast support should be viable, justmake your blast levels higher, and probably magical knack it.

Does Druid Cave Domain from Ultimate Magic count for this list?

Cave Domain wrote:
Cavesight (Sp): You can grant darkvision 60 feet to a willing creature you touch. This effect lasts 1 minute, or 1 hour if used on yourself. You can use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + your Wisdom modifier.
Darkvision Spell wrote:

Range touch

Target creature touched
Duration 1 hour/level
Saving Throw Will negates (harmless); Spell Resistance yes (harmless)

The subject gains the ability to see 60 feet even in total darkness. Darkvision is black and white only but otherwise like normal sight


Does Infiltrator (Inquisitor Archetype: Ultimate Magic) count for that list?

Infiltrator wrote:
Misdirection (Sp): At 1st level, each day when the infiltrator prepares spells, she may choose an alignment. She detects as that alignment as if she had used misdirection on a creature with that alignment (this does not change any divination results about her other than her alignment). This power replaces stern gaze.

Liberty's Edge

If I do the build, I will probably play it through 2 or 3 levels (since it will play as a single class character for that portion) then stack GM credits for several levels. That way I shouldn't have to play it through the really painful bits.

Yohan Smith wrote:
... Also, I am gonna go with an Item for the Bond, since the familiar doesn't scale with level nearly as well. ...

Yes and no. You don't get the wizard levels for the familiar abilities. But you will have the caster level for improved familiar. Some of the improved familiars make pretty darn good scouts and/or wand monkeys. Then you could also take boon companion and have the 6th level familiar abilities. That gets you the 2 key ones of speak with master and deliver touch spells.

But like I said. I can see it either way. I really like the scouting familiar. But that also costs you 1 or 2 feats which are in short supply. Bonded item saves you money and a single spell recall.

-----------------------------------------------------

Sarrah wrote:

Does Infiltrator (Inquisitor Archetype: Ultimate Magic) count for that list?

Infiltrator wrote:
Misdirection (Sp): At 1st level, each day when the infiltrator prepares spells, she may choose an alignment. She detects as that alignment as if she had used misdirection on a creature with that alignment (this does not change any divination results about her other than her alignment). This power replaces stern gaze.

In the Comprehensive Guide to the Guides, there is a guide called "Early-Entry Prestige Classes with Spell-Like Abilities."

I can't open it at work to check, but I believe it is pretty complete on what people have agreed works for early entry.


That guide says no to cave domain.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Dark Immortal wrote:
If you are aiming for blaster support and are choosing cleric and wizard, you pretty much have to do wizard for blasting and clerk for support.

Getting that paperwork done is important! :)


.

Liberty's Edge

My PFS Lavode De'Morcaine wrote:

If I do the build, I will probably play it through 2 or 3 levels (since it will play as a single class character for that portion) then stack GM credits for several levels. That way I shouldn't have to play it through the really painful bits.

Yohan Smith wrote:
... Also, I am gonna go with an Item for the Bond, since the familiar doesn't scale with level nearly as well. ...

Yes and no. You don't get the wizard levels for the familiar abilities. But you will have the caster level for improved familiar. Some of the improved familiars make pretty darn good scouts and/or wand monkeys. Then you could also take boon companion and have the 6th level familiar abilities. That gets you the 2 key ones of speak with master and deliver touch spells.

But like I said. I can see it either way. I really like the scouting familiar. But that also costs you 1 or 2 feats which are in short supply. Bonded item saves you money and a single spell recall.

I still would prefer the lack-of-feats, and free spells/gear from not having the familiar. Boon Companion does make it a bit more tempting, but I have seen familiars die in PFS quite a few times, but have never seen a bonded object sundered or stolen.

Some advice as to what the best Bonded Object is would be appreciated. I'm using "Ring" right now, thinking that a Ring of Invisibility might be worth it at some point, but it occurs to me that blasting kinda breaks Invisibility, and it might be more cost-effective to just prepare it every once in a while. Any ideas as to the best wizardly object that can be a bonded item at 1/2 price might be?

Liberty's Edge

Many seem to think staff would make a good bonded item for a blaster. That way you can blast with your staff and replace at 1/2 price. But to me that only seems worth it if you think you are going to run out of your prep'd blasting spells.

I would probably do ring or amulet. Not sure which, there are some very nice ones for both slots. I guess I would be leaning toward ring. But not invisibility. You can always prep that and you will have lots of low level slots available. Wizardry, storing, evasion, mind shielding, counter spells, spell turning, etc... There are a lot to choose from.


The ring is a good choice for earlier access to Freedom of Movement. The Staff can be a great choice for Staff of the Master Necromancer.

Liberty's Edge

My PFS Lavode De'Morcaine wrote:

Many seem to think staff would make a good bonded item for a blaster. That way you can blast with your staff and replace at 1/2 price. But to me that only seems worth it if you think you are going to run out of your prep'd blasting spells.

I would probably do ring or amulet. Not sure which, there are some very nice ones for both slots. I guess I would be leaning toward ring. But not invisibility. You can always prep that and you will have lots of low level slots available. Wizardry, storing, evasion, mind shielding, counter spells, spell turning, etc... There are a lot to choose from.

Yeah, I'm not too keen on the staff option, as I don't get the benefit until CL11. I'm thinking either Invisibility[might seem like a bit of a waste, but its cool to have], Evasion[always nice, but I don't know how often I'll be making those saves. Might be nice for Detonate spell], or going Amulet that will either be Natural Armor[cheap bonus to AC for when I need it] or the Braid of a Hundred Masters I got from a Boon [if allowed, not sure].

In the mean time, I came up with a progression

Yohan through level 7:
Yohan Smith, Human Wizard2/Separatist1/Mystic Theurge4

Stats:
Str8
Dex12
Con12
Int18
Wis17[+1@4]
Cha10

Feats:
1:Spell Focus[Evocation]
1:Spell Specialization[1-3 Burning Hands, 5Scorching Ray, 7Fireball]
3:Theurgy
5:Toughness
7:Spell Penetration

Class Features:
Arcane Bond[Ring/Amulet/Other]
Spells
Spellbook
Force Missile
Intense Spells+1
Opposed Schools:Enchanment and Divination
Orisons
Aura 1HD
Spells
Copycat5/day
Domain Power???
Channel Energy 3/day
Combine Spells[1st&2nd]

Common Spells Prepared[Wizard]:
0:Ray of Frost
0:Prestidigitation
0:Mage Hand
0:Acid Splash

1:Enlarge Person
1:Infernal Healing
1:Mage Armour
1:Magic Missile
1:Burning Hands

2:False Life
2:Invisibility
2:Mirror Image
2:Scorching Ray
2:Flaming Sphere

3:Haste
3:Vampiric Touch
3:Daylight
3:Fireball

Common Spells Prepared[Cleric]
0:Stabilize
0:Detect Magic
0:Read Magic
0:Create Water

1:Bless
1:Ant Haul
1:Protection from Evil
1:Detect Magic

2:Hold Person
2:Lesser Restoration
2:Aid

3:Bestow Curse
3:Prayer

The Spells prepared won't all be prepared each day, I've just listed those as a nice variety to have walking into a scenario at the start before I know anything about it. Most scenarios give me time to re-prep, so I will be doing that a lot.

What's everyone think?


Let me ask you this question: Is it harder for you to RP a Theruge of a god who has the trickery domain, or a play a Seperatist with all its drawbacks? The Seperatist isn't a great archetype because there are so many gods that it is easier (and, in my opinion, more rewarding) to find a god that completely matches your build rather than using Seperatist to screw around with it.
Here is a list of all the deities with Trickery. Let it inspire you! You'll have better crunch and perhaps even better fluff. Of course, you don't have do it; just IMO Seperatist is a bad archetype because it always gimps your character and can close people off to an even more enriching RP experience. Just my two cents.

Beyond that, the build is a good idea. The early access is especially key in PFS, so I understand the desire for Trickery.

Liberty's Edge

Nog64 wrote:

Let me ask you this question: Is it harder for you to RP a Theruge of a god who has the trickery domain, or a play a Seperatist with all its drawbacks? The Seperatist isn't a great archetype because there are so many gods that it is easier (and, in my opinion, more rewarding) to find a god that completely matches your build rather than using Seperatist to screw around with it.

Here is a list of all the deities with Trickery. Let it inspire you! You'll have better crunch and perhaps even better fluff. Of course, you don't have do it; just IMO Seperatist is a bad archetype because it always gimps your character and can close people off to an even more enriching RP experience. Just my two cents.

Beyond that, the build is a good idea. The early access is especially key in PFS, so I understand the desire for Trickery.

Wouldn't be too much harder to reflavor him. Only thing is that, the Domain class feature will never be very good. Its 1 spell that will be situational at best most of the time, 1 Sp/Su ability that will be rarely used, and occasionally an Ex. ability as well. Separatist limits how much I can use 1 domain, and gives up proficiency with 1 [in this case, simple] weapon, and in exchange lets me worship my favorite god and go with the flavor I have already build up for him. It wouldn't really gimp me for 1 single level dip in cleric.


If you're playing PFS then Calistria can grant the important Trickery domain. Given her portfolio and other Domains you could RP this a number of ways. Combining the Trickery and Luck domains (powerful choices in themselves) you could focus on the gossip and thrill-seeking aspects of the goddess. It could mesh with the Mystic Theurge in that your character is a curious and carefree individual, hungry for knowledge as well as new experiences.

This character actually gives a roleplaying gloss to what I would consider to be a pretty powerful Mystic Theurge build - Conjuration(teleportation) Wizard 3/Cleric of Calistria 1/Mystic Theurge X. You delay your Arcane casting by only 1 level for a good amount of Cleric spells. It's not as early-entry as some builds but is viable for any race.

Liberty's Edge

Corvino wrote:

If you're playing PFS then Calistria can grant the important Trickery domain. Given her portfolio and other Domains you could RP this a number of ways. Combining the Trickery and Luck domains (powerful choices in themselves) you could focus on the gossip and thrill-seeking aspects of the goddess. It could mesh with the Mystic Theurge in that your character is a curious and carefree individual, hungry for knowledge as well as new experiences.

This character actually gives a roleplaying gloss to what I would consider to be a pretty powerful Mystic Theurge build - Conjuration(teleportation) Wizard 3/Cleric of Calistria 1/Mystic Theurge X. You delay your Arcane casting by only 1 level for a good amount of Cleric spells. It's not as early-entry as some builds but is viable for any race.

Yeah, Calistra does sound like a nice deity. Only thing is, I don't really want to give up my deity as Nethys. I already built my flavor around him [including why he is entering early], and don't particularly want to change it, I like the flavor Nethys as a deity [for those of you who don't know, he basically learned so much about magic that he managed to ascend to godhood without need of the starstone, and he learned so much that it drove him to an insane paradox of himself, where half of him seeks to destroy and the other to create], and I also don't see what the problem with being a separatist is anyhow. If someone could explain why it is a "gimped" archetype, I might be flexible, but as is I don't see any issue with Separatist as a dip archetype.


Yohan Smith wrote:
Corvino wrote:

If you're playing PFS then Calistria can grant the important Trickery domain. Given her portfolio and other Domains you could RP this a number of ways. Combining the Trickery and Luck domains (powerful choices in themselves) you could focus on the gossip and thrill-seeking aspects of the goddess. It could mesh with the Mystic Theurge in that your character is a curious and carefree individual, hungry for knowledge as well as new experiences.

This character actually gives a roleplaying gloss to what I would consider to be a pretty powerful Mystic Theurge build - Conjuration(teleportation) Wizard 3/Cleric of Calistria 1/Mystic Theurge X. You delay your Arcane casting by only 1 level for a good amount of Cleric spells. It's not as early-entry as some builds but is viable for any race.

Yeah, Calistra does sound like a nice deity. Only thing is, I don't really want to give up my deity as Nethys. I already built my flavor around him [including why he is entering early], and don't particularly want to change it, I like the flavor Nethys as a deity [for those of you who don't know, he basically learned so much about magic that he managed to ascend to godhood without need of the starstone, and he learned so much that it drove him to an insane paradox of himself, where half of him seeks to destroy and the other to create], and I also don't see what the problem with being a separatist is anyhow. If someone could explain why it is a "gimped" archetype, I might be flexible, but as is I don't see any issue with Separatist as a dip archetype.

It's "gimped" because you're giving up a weapon proficiency and 2 "stuff" (DCs and caster level) on a domain for basically no trade off. IF it were the case that there were only a few gods, the archetype might have some value, but as it stands, I would wager than literally any combination of two domains or subdomains you wanted you could get without having to resort to the archetype; outside of PFS, you can worship an ideal and pick any two domains, rendering the archetype completely obsolete. As I said before, from an RP perspective, I think it's good to have a challenge on making a character idea fit a certain god, and if you're coming at it from a build first, choosing the right god can conversely help set up a good back story.

Of course, you're the guy with the Nethys avatar, and, as you say, the drawbacks are minimized if it's only a one level dip. It's your choice to choose that path, and it's perfectly legitimate: it's just not "optimal", and the fix to make it so is relatively simple.


As a linked question: Which are the easiest-to-replace opposition schools for a Specialist Wizard/Mystic Theurge?

I was thinking Divination, as you gain quite a few Divination spells including True Seeing as Divine anyway. Which other schools can be effectively replaced using divine magic?


ARGH! wrote:
The FAQ was that SLAs do count as casting for prereqs. For MTs I am partial to wood oracle/sorcerers for the cha synergy and I like the spontaneous mechanic. For the race go half elf and drow magic alt racial trait for darkness sla. Then pick up paragon surge and be the magic jack of all trades, casting whatever you need for the situation at hand, chosen at a moment's notice. From there, you have the entire rest of your build to play with for blasting and support. Pick the best buffs of both lists. Take feats that augment both of your castings. I am partial to summoning off of both lists with s.f. conjuration and the augment lines. Theurgy can be really nice for keeping your dcs relevant. Maybe go with blackened curse to get burning hands on both of your lists and load on the metamagic. For your sorcerer bloodline I like draconic with the varisian archetype.

I was tempted by the fact that Sorcerers and Oracles emphasize the same ability score, Charisma, but I've decided that my first Mystic Theurge will be a Cleric/Wizard instead.

One of my reasons is no longer valid: levels required to qualify. The prerequisites for MT include the ability to cast level 2 cleric and wizard spells, which once upon a time meant having to become a level 3 wizard/level 3 cleric/level 1 mystic theurge or becoming a level 4 sorcerer/level 4 oracle/level 1 mystic theurge. And that just seemed to take unacceptably long. When the S/O/MT reaches level 12, he is not as powerful as just a level 12 Cleric would be. This isn't true anymore since spell-like abilities now qualify for spellcasting prereqs.

Another reason is that what Oracles and Sorcerers gain in lieu of limited numbers of spells known and late access to those spells is extra class abilities, extra reach, dragon claws, the touch of making people insane, etc. The development of those class abilities gets retarded by abandoning the prereq classes for mystic theurge. Oracles, in particular begin play under Curses that are very inconvenient but gradually lessen and turn into advantages as they progress. I wouldn't want to build a character up to 12th level with the Consumed Curse without ever gaining any of the advantages.


Very true, Scott Wilhelm. Taking Mystic Theurge levels also means you miss out on things like favored class bonuses. The human FCB for both Sorcerers and Oracles is kind of a big deal - more spells known offsets one of the main class disadvantages.

A further question: How does gaining Mystic Theurge levels affect Cleric Domain and Arcane School spells? Do you gain your Domain and Arcane School bonus spell slot for spell levels opened up by the MT class?

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