Just wondering if the spell works on arrows worth like 50 Gold a pop....
"Items without metal parts cannot be made from adamantine. An arrow could be made of adamantine, but a quarterstaff could not."
Is there any limitation to this spell on these kind of arrows? Like a certain GP value because they all ready have a +1 to hit.
Thanks.
No, the spell works on any non-magical ammunition, and will also replicate some magical boosts from spells on ammunition it creates, like bless weapon
Adamantine arrows are non-magical.
They work just fine.
The limit is, that it does not work on magical/enchanted ammunition.
That is it.
And a minor side note, and possibly very relevant, is that adamantine arrows cost more then 1 gp/apiece, making them ineligible for Eschew Materials feat's benefit. So you'll have to 'spend' an arrow each time you want to cast the spell on the container.
Natrim wrote: And a minor side note, and possibly very relevant, is that adamantine arrows cost more then 1 gp/apiece, making them ineligible for Eschew Materials feat's benefit. So you'll have to 'spend' an arrow each time you want to cast the spell on the container. Not if the arrow contains a mix of arrows, just grab a plain vanilla arrow, and you can go to town.
Actually the spell says a piece of ammunition, so it could be a 5 cp arrow, even if all you have in the quiver is adamantine arrows. Maybe even a free rock, since that is, technically, sling ammunition...
Well if you want to be clever, sure.... *grin*
Forgot about that particular loophole. Still, always worth considering that material component aspect. Way too easily overlooked, I find. *shrug*
Natrim wrote: Well if you want to be clever, sure.... *grin*
Forgot about that particular loophole. Still, always worth considering that material component aspect. Way too easily overlooked, I find. *shrug*
Well, there is always the False Focus feat, which, with the right holy symbol, could let you simulate that 60.05 adamantine arrow, without spending more gold. Once you have that gold holy symbol, it covers a lot of inexpensive material components. Add in blood money...
If cast as a Divine spell, you will only need the arrow as a Divine Focus.
LucasB wrote: Just wondering if the spell works on arrows worth like 50 Gold a pop... There's a lot of confusion on the cost of Adamantine arrows. In the CRB, it says 60gp "per missile."
In Ultimate Equipment, it says 60gp "per item".
I've looked through the Errata and there is no correction to Ultimate Equipment
Then there is this post by J Jacobs
James Jacobs clarifies that "per item" is per lot of 20 for alchemical silver
All the special materials entries in UE say "per item". Ergo, if "per item" refers to a batch of 20 arrows...you know, because that's how you buy them as an item, then adamantine arrows are 61gp per batch of 20, not 3001 gp per batch of 20.
If there's a FAQ which refutes this, please post.
Note that that James Jacobs "clarification" is how he would rule it at his own table, and not for Paizo/Pathfinder in general.
He is only responsible for official clarifications/FAQ for Golarion lore, not game design issues in general.
Overall, you are mainly going to find that most GMs will charge you the cost for alchemical silver and/or adamantine per piece of ammunition, not per lot, whether 10, 20 or 50.
As I understood the spell it only replaces the spent ammo all at the same time. That would mean that you need to have enough adamantine arrows to last at least one round of shooting. If you only have one you can only shoot one per round.
kinevon wrote: Note that that James Jacobs "clarification" is how he would rule it at his own table, and not for Paizo/Pathfinder in general. That is incorrect. James is not offering a house rule, he's explaining to the poster how the rule works per RAW. Yes, JJ is not the official word on the rules. Which is why I point out that ALL of the special materials in Ultimate Equipment list ammo as "per item". This replaces the CRB use of "per missile" for some material and not others. You buy arrows in lots of 20. That is the "item".
While it's possible that per item is suppose to be per missile, that seems inconsistent with how all other special items are priced.
Unless there is a specific FAQ correcting this, JJ's clarification is consistent with how the most recent rulebooks read.
Quote: Overall, you are mainly going to find that most GMs will charge you the cost for alchemical silver and/or adamantine per piece of ammunition, not per lot, whether 10, 20 or 50. Yup, because in 3.5 it used to be "per missile". But the rules has changed. I've already had GMs in PFS acknowledge the correction.
N N 959 wrote: kinevon wrote: Note that that James Jacobs "clarification" is how he would rule it at his own table, and not for Paizo/Pathfinder in general. That is incorrect. James is not offering a house rule, he's explaining to the poster how the rule works per RAW. Yes, JJ is not the official word on the rules. Which is why I point out that ALL of the special materials in Ultimate Equipment list ammo as "per item". This replaces the CRB use of "per missile" for some material and not others. You buy arrows in lots of 20. That is the "item".
While it's possible that per item is suppose to be per missile, that seems inconsistent with how all other special items are priced.
Unless there is a specific FAQ correcting this, JJ's clarification is consistent with how the most recent rulebooks read.
Quote: Overall, you are mainly going to find that most GMs will charge you the cost for alchemical silver and/or adamantine per piece of ammunition, not per lot, whether 10, 20 or 50. Yup, because in 3.5 it used to be "per missile". But the rules has changed. I've already had GMs in PFS acknowledge the correction. And 61 gp for 20 masterwork adamantine arrows doesn't match the general pricing as given for adamantine items.
And could you point out where in the rules it translates one item into 20 individual pieces?
If the "item" is defined as a bunch of 20 (and if it can be pointed out in a doc somewhere), then adamantine arrows become a bit more affordable. Otherwise there's weapon blanch (but I think that only does 10) for 100 GP.
kinevon wrote: And 61 gp for 20 masterwork adamantine arrows doesn't match the general pricing as given for adamantine items. While that may have been the basis for the original costing method in 3.5 it's way off the mark. An adamantine sword doesn't break upon use and then 50% the time when you miss. 3000gp for perishable arrows is silly. Especially since the real value is the adamantine arrowhead and that would obviously survive a miss every time. Yet, PFS has no method for someone to take the arrowheads and have them reshafted for a 1gp. If they did, I might agree with you.
More to the point, if we want to talk about price consistency, an arrow costs 5 cp, correct? So if it's +60gp per arrow, then I'm spending 1200 times the cost of a single arrow. A longsword costs 15 gp. That means adamantine only makes it 200 times more expense, where as a dagger is 3000 times more expensive. Comparative weapon pricing is not going to provide us with much insight and certainly not a basis for overruling the plain English.
Quote: And could you point out where in the rules it translates one item into 20 individual pieces? Every listing in the Weapons Equipment table is "an item". You buy 1 dagger as an item. You buy 1 longsword as an item. You buy 5 shuriken as "an item". You buy 10 bolts as "an item". It's straight forward.
I'm going to repeat, Ultimate Equipment changed the listing from "per missile" to "per item". Barring evidence to the contrary, that was an intentional change as UE was printed after the Core Rule Book.
Look, I could be totally wrong, but JJ is the one who said AS arrows are per 20. I'm simply applying that clarification to everything else that is "per item".
Let me go on record and say that the error could be in Ultimate Equipment. It's entirely possible the editor didn't realize that Ad is "per missile" and not per item. So maybe there was no intentional change to the costing. If that were the case, then I would petition the developers to actually use the per item costing method and clarify that it's per 20 arrows.
3001gp for 20 perishable adamantine arrows, essentially makes them a non-factor in the game. At 60gp per 20, they become an option. It's not like archers running around with Ad arrows are going to break the game or even tip the scales.
Or he could mean that you have to buy them in lots of 20 and not just one arrow at a time. Notice how he also says it is unfortunate that magic arrows are priced in batches of 50. That means you have to buy 3 batches of 20 arrows in order to enchant 50 of them. The reason adamantine arrows cost 60GP per arrow is so that 50 arrows will equal out to the price of an adamantine weapon (3,000gp). I doubt you will use more than 50 adamantine arrows throughout your adventuring career unless your campaign has an unusual amount of constructs or creatures with DR/adamantine. Not having to spend the entire 3,000GP up front is a benefit that archers can enjoy. Sort of like a pay as you go kind of adamantine weapon. Spend 1,200GP and you don't need to spend more until you've used up the ones you already have. Melee characters are stuck paying the full 3,000GP. Whether they need it or not they always have it, but they paid more than the archer.
Eficient quiver with 5-6 arrows of each type and enjoy your abundant ammunition ^^
"Once the owner has filled it, the quiver can quickly produce any item she wishes that is within the quiver, as if from a regular quiver or scabbard."
N N 959 wrote: 3001gp for 20 perishable adamantine arrows, essentially makes them a non-factor in the game. At 60gp per 20, they become an option. It's not like archers running around with Ad arrows are going to break the game or even tip the scales. My bad, it would be 1200gp for 20 arrows.
Laif wrote: Eficient quiver with 5-6 arrows of each type and enjoy your abundant ammunition ^^
"Once the owner has filled it, the quiver can quickly produce any item she wishes that is within the quiver, as if from a regular quiver or scabbard."
An efficient quiver just holds a ton of arrows. It doesn't duplicate them. The text you quoted just means that you don't have to fumble around in the quiver to find that one specific arrow. You can draw whichever one you want as quickly as you could from a normal quiver.
Aberrant Templar wrote: Laif wrote: Eficient quiver with 5-6 arrows of each type and enjoy your abundant ammunition ^^
"Once the owner has filled it, the quiver can quickly produce any item she wishes that is within the quiver, as if from a regular quiver or scabbard."
An efficient quiver just holds a ton of arrows. It doesn't duplicate them. The text you quoted just means that you don't have to fumble around in the quiver to find that one specific arrow. You can draw whichever one you want as quickly as you could from a normal quiver. We are discussing a topic about Abundant ammunition and someone posted about a quiver filled randomly...
So... efficient quiver with abundant ammunition it makes you infinite arrows of the kind you want: Cold iron, silver, adamantite, blunt-headed, slashing, smoke, wistling.... you can have 10 kind of them within an efficient quiver (6/type).
Robert A Matthews wrote: Or he could mean that you have to buy them in lots of 20 and not just one arrow at a time. Notice how he also says it is unfortunate that magic arrows are priced in batches of 50. No. Read again what he writes:
James Jacobs wrote: The cost is added per batch of 20 arrows. The cost is "added per batch of 20..." His is not trying to clarify that you can only buy them in batches of 20, nor is the post he's responding to trying to asking that question. It is clear a question and answer about +2gp per arrow or per 20. JJ says it's per 20.
Quote: That means you have to buy 3 batches of 20 arrows in order to enchant 50 of them. You don't enchant arrows to make them adamantine. So I'm not following the logic.
Quote: The reason adamantine arrows cost 60GP per arrow is so that 50 arrows will equal out to the price of an adamantine weapon (3,000gp). Yes, I understand that may have been the rational in 3.5. But it's possible that the PF developers realized how silly that relationship is because arrows break and there is no mechanism for retaining the metal arrowheads.
Quote: I doubt you will use more than 50 adamantine arrows throughout your adventuring career unless your campaign has an unusual amount of constructs or creatures with DR/adamantine. Not sure how that's relevant. Items aren't priced by how much you'll use them.
Quote: Not having to spend the entire 3,000GP up front is a benefit that archers can enjoy. Sort of like a pay as you go kind of adamantine weapon. Spend 1,200GP and you don't need to spend more until you've used up the ones you already have. Melee characters are stuck paying the full 3,000GP. Whether they need it or not they always have it, but they paid more than the archer. An AD melee weapon is permanent. It can be magically enchanted, and lasts forever. Arrows break. You enchant them and they lose their enchantment as soon as they are fired. So while I will agree that there is an advantage to being able to so spend less than 3000gp for an adamantine option, and while I also agree that most players won't fire 50 ad arrows in their characters life, we'll have to disagree that the pricing is fair. In addition, the introduction of weapon blanch to Pathfinder means that nobody is going to spend 60 gp per arrow when you can blanch 10 for 100. More importantly, a 60 gp per 20 seems reasonable. In fact, the arrow vs weapon normal to ad ratio should favor the arrows because they are perishable.
The only caveat I'll add is that if you can make durable adamantine arrows, then that kind of skews the fairness issue. I would charge 60gp per durable arrow because it's "per item." But durable arrows change the game balance on special material arrows. However, I don't know if durable arrows were factored into anyone's decision.
If it is +60p per 20 then that means adamantine arrows cost +3GP each. You seem to think this is reasonable. However, masterwork arrows cost +6GP each. All adamantine items are masterwork, therefore using your interpretation, it is cheaper to buy adamantine arrows than it is to buy masterwork arrows and you get a much better effect. Obviously one of these interpretations is wrong.
Quote: You don't enchant arrows to make them adamantine. So I'm not following the logic. In other words, if you wanted to enchant 50 adamantine arrows to make 50 +1 adamantine arrows, you would have to buy 3 batches of 20. You can't just buy 50 arrows.
Robert A Matthews wrote: If it is +60p per 20 then that means adamantine arrows cost +3GP each. You seem to think this is reasonable. However, masterwork arrows cost +6GP each. All adamantine items are masterwork, therefore using your interpretation, it is cheaper to buy adamantine arrows than it is to buy masterwork arrows and you get a much better effect. Obviously one of these interpretations is wrong. The pricing inconsistency doesn't mean the interpretation is wrong. It means the pricing logic is inconsistent. There are number of pricing oddities if we use the per missile approach:
Mithral light armor is +1000gp
Adamantine light armor is +5000gp,
Elysian Bronze light armor is +1000gp
Fire-Forgest steel light armor is +1000gp
Mithral arrows = 75pg each (MW)
Adamantine arrows = 60 gp each. (MW)
Elysian Bronze = 20gp each. (not-MW)
FFS arrows = 15gp (MW)
The pricing logic in the game is a mess. No doubt a result of different developers and the different pricing schemes. And don't get me started on weapon blanches.
I'll agree that it's nonsensical to have MW arrows cost more than MW arrows with special materials. I'm also open to the idea that JJ is completely wrong about the Per Item being batches of 20. But other than legacy pricing contradictions, there's no official indication of why they went to Per Item if they meant Per Missile.
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blackbloodtroll wrote: Adamantine arrows are non-magical.
They work just fine.
The limit is, that it does not work on magical/enchanted ammunition.
That is it.
I don't know what you guys are talking about.
"When cast on a container such as a quiver or a pouch that contains nonmagical ammunition or shuriken (including masterwork ammunition or shuriken, but not special materials, alchemical attributes, or nonmagical treatments on the ammunition) at the start of each round this spell replaces any ammunition taken from the container the round before. The ammunition taken from the container the round before vanishes. If, after casting this spell, you cast a spell that enhances projectiles, such as align weapon or greater magic weapon, on the same container, all projectiles this spell conjures are affected by that spell." http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/a/abundant-ammunition
Sorry dude. I would love the spell if it worked like that, but no.
Smitty.The.Smith wrote: blackbloodtroll wrote: Adamantine arrows are non-magical.
They work just fine.
The limit is, that it does not work on magical/enchanted ammunition.
That is it.
I don't know what you guys are talking about.
"When cast on a container such as a quiver or a pouch that contains nonmagical ammunition or shuriken (including masterwork ammunition or shuriken, but not special materials, alchemical attributes, or nonmagical treatments on the ammunition) at the start of each round this spell replaces any ammunition taken from the container the round before. The ammunition taken from the container the round before vanishes. If, after casting this spell, you cast a spell that enhances projectiles, such as align weapon or greater magic weapon, on the same container, all projectiles this spell conjures are affected by that spell." http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/a/abundant-ammunition
Sorry dude. I would love the spell if it worked like that, but no. You are responding to a two and a half year old thread. Back then Abundant Ammunition did work on ammunition made from special materials. That was changed in later errata to Ultimate Combat.
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