need some HELP pathfinder Pvp duel. Ranger vs sorcerer


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I'm getting ready for a pvp practice duel that my party just made a bi weekly ritual. I am a lvl 6 Dwarf switch hitter Ranger and um dueling a lvl gnome sorcerer who has a Pyromancy bloodline? I have a dire wolf companion (really just a wolf but DM house ruled the larger size and weight) with toughness, and spring attack. The sorcerers main offense is the scorching ray. Location hasn't been set yet but will likely be forest ( my favored terrain) and I am using arcanast as my 2nd favored enemy. Also I've got pretty great stealth and tracking skills and we are even on Init at +12 a piece. Any ideas would be appreciated thanks.

Sczarni

Umm. Target and Pew Pew. He'll probably die within the first 2 rounds, maybe the first round if your Wolf reaches him too. Your reach with that Bow is pretty ridiculous, afterall.

His AC will be abysmal to start, making it stupid easy for you to hit. If you win the Initiative and get to act first, you've got this in the bag.

If he survives somehow or gets to act first... you may be in trouble. Though, it's technically 2 vs 1 since you have a Wolf. I hope your Will save is up to par.

Liberty's Edge

Prepare Resist Energy. Use it, preferably prior to combat since it lasts half an hour. Scorching Ray becomes...less than stellar vs. Fire Resistance. If done pre-combat, use it on your wolf, too.

Other than that, yeah, just shoot him full of holes until your wolf melees him, then join it in murdering him with whatever melee weapon you favor.

Dark Archive

I would assume that an intelligent spellcaster has effective tools for dealing with ranged attacks and surprise attacks. He probably tried dealing with surprise via a high perception score and then a high initiative to maximize his hp and minimize enemy threats. With that said, you're tied here so that part is a toss up.

Due to only being sixth level, the advantage is likely yours. You have more ac and hp as well as an easier chance to hit. As a sorceror his options are more limited and likely not utility like wind walls and such. His gear options are probably stereotypical and not particularly thematic (so cloak of resistance, stat boosting headband, etc) meaning that if he beats you on initiative and doesn't stick a spell ends the fight, you should come out ahead.

In essence, the burden of proof is on him. You should have no trouble defeating him if you go first. If he goes first, he still has to get you to make saves, etc and cannot adapt his spells to the current threat. Preparation is not beneficial to him like it is to a wizard so the odds are in your favor. But I do not know his build. Maybe his sorceror is built interestingly.

Sczarni RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16

Don't forget that you can ready an action to shoot him if he casts a spell. Concentration DCs for taking damage while casting are very difficult to make!


Umm... Have your wolf grapple him?

If your wolf doesn't have improved grapple it will provoke an AoO, but from a gnome sorcerer, who cares?

I'm betting your large wolf will have a relatively easy time of doing it. When he succeeds, it makes him easier to hit, gives him a -2 to attack rolls (which scorching ray is), and requires a decent concentration check to even cast a spell.

If he doesn't manage to escape, pin him the next round, suddenly no more spells with somatic or material components (scorching ray has a somatic).

Proceed to Pin-Cushion him.


Your ranger has a zero chance of dying when against a level 6 gnome sorc. Don't worry about it.

However, why do you get an OP wolf companion?


Tamago wrote:
Don't forget that you can ready an action to shoot him if he casts a spell. Concentration DCs for taking damage while casting are very difficult to make!

Also, this.


I could totally see the sorcerer cheesing out with vanish / invisibility and summoning critters until you lose.


Scent from farther than 5 feet does not pinpoint where the scent is coming from, only that the creature is within 30 feet of the smeller.


Sarrah wrote:
I could totally see the sorcerer cheesing out with vanish / invisibility and summoning critters until you lose.

That was my first thought. Possibly with fly thrown in as well which will negate the wolf.


Fly and a scroll of fickle wind could make this guy a pretty serious threat.


Bring along something to deal with invisibility. Perhaps some small flasks filled with paint, or similar. Even if he uses Prestidigitation to clean it off, that's a round's action wasted.


Master of the Dark Triad wrote:

Your ranger has a zero chance of dying when against a level 6 gnome sorc. Don't worry about it.

However, why do you get an OP wolf companion?

That is ridiculously far from being true given the amount of save or suck a sorcerer can drop on you from the outset. Much of the outcome will depend on the setting, terrain and other features and buffing time and while gnome would never be my choice of race and elemental wouldn't be my choice of bloodline for a sorcerer if I was doing this I would be looking at something like this:

Gnome:
Gnome Sorcerer (Tattooed Sorcerer) 6
CN Small humanoid (gnome)
Init +12; Senses darkvision 60 ft.; Perception +13

--------------------
Defense
--------------------
AC 17, touch 13, flat-footed 15 (+4 armor, +2 Dex, +1 size)
hp 44 (6d6+18)
Fort +7, Ref +6, Will +7
Defensive Abilities defensive training (+4 dodge bonus to AC vs. giants); Resist fire 10

--------------------
Offense
--------------------
Speed 20 ft.
Special Attacks +1 on attack rolls against goblinoid and reptilian humanoids

Spell-Like Abilities (CL 6th; concentration +12)
. . 3/day—dancing lights
. . 1/day—flare (DC 16), prestidigitation (DC 16), produce flame

Gnome Spell-Like Abilities (CL 6th; concentration +12)
. . 1/day—dancing lights

Sorcerer (Tattooed Sorcerer) Spells Known (CL 6th; concentration +12):

3rd (4/day)—summon monster iii
2nd (7/day)—glitterdust (DC 19), levitate, scorching ray
1st (8/day)—burning hands (DC 17), grease (DC 18), mage armor, silent image (DC 17), vanish
0 (at will)—acid splash, detect magic, detect poison, ghost sound (DC 16), mage hand, prestidigitation (DC 16), resistance

--------------------
Statistics
--------------------
Str 5, Dex 14, Con 16, Int 10, Wis 11, Cha 22
Base Atk +3; CMB -1; CMD 11

Feats Augment Summoning, Noble Scion of War, Spell Focus (conjuration), Varisian Tattoo (conjuration)

Traits highlander (hills or mountains), reactionary

Skills Appraise +4, Bluff +10, Craft (alchemy) +6, Fly +8, Intimidate +10, Perception +13, Sense Motive +2, Stealth +16 (+18 in hilly or rocky areas), Use Magic Device +10; Racial Modifiers +2 Craft (alchemy), highlander (hills or mountains)

Languages Common, Gnome, Sylvan

SQ bloodline tattoos, bloodlines (elemental), familiar tattoo

Combat Gear scroll of darkness (2, CL 4th), scroll of dispel magic (2), scroll of expeditious retreat (2), scroll of mirror image (2), scroll of obscuring mist (4), scroll of reduce person (4), scroll of see invisibility, scroll of shield (4), scroll of summon monster ii (4), scroll of summon monster iii (2), tanglefoot bag (2); Other Gear cloak of resistance +2, eyes of the eagle, handy haversack, headband of alluring charisma +2

I would give him a decent chance in a single man duel against anyone.


CMD of 11? CMB of -1?

Unless you pop that vanish first, you are screwed. Even if you do, wolf has speed 50 and range of scorching ray is 40 feet at level 6. Sorcerer reappears, wolf uses readied action to charge and grapple. Wolf's BAB is +4 with strength of at least 15 (23 if the dire form gives it the large wolf animal companion bonuses) assuming also the ranger had boon companion. So wolf has a CMB of +10?

If he flies, he has to get in within bow shot range. With fire resist running, my money is on the ranger. Especially when he readies his action to shoot the gnome when the latter starts to cast.

Also, Tanglefoot bags. He should fail his save a little less than half the time (assuming a decent dex and some magic items). It won't prevent his magical flight if he is already airborne, but if he is on the ground he gets rooted, plus a penalty to attacks and concentration checks to cast spells are fun. It's a ranged touch, so even a few range increment penalties don't hurt too bad. There is no way he is making the strength check to break free, and it will take at least 2 rounds (probably much more) to cut himself free with a slashing weapon (assuming he even has one).


Wowow where is the wolf ability that lets you ready a charge?


+12 initiative, makes going first reasonably likely unless the ranger is heavily investing in it.

You aren't going to get a decent CMD on any arcane caster at this level, investing in it is a mugs game. The goal is to win initiative, vanish, move away, levitate and just start summoning. If you need cover then darkness or obscuring mist can provide it.

Scorching Ray is an automatic as I am stuck with the elemental bloodline, it certainly wouldn't be my choice and wont be using it to fight for me. I leave that to multiple summoned elementals. Earth Elementals have tremorsense and so don't care about mist or darkness.

I should probably dump augment summoning for improved initiative to guarantee going first.

I also think you are vastly over rating what an animal companion can do. Is there a trick which allows your companion to ready or to grapple?


Wow! Awesome response, sorry it took me so long to get back on! And yes that little gnomey bastard loves invisibility and mage armor and scorching ray. Think he has glitter dust too. And my wolf has spring attack but not imp grapple. Yeah if we get the first turn I will have him grapple the gnome while I'm loosing either seeking/ sleeping arrows. The thing that worries me is his AC is a 19 and mine is a 20. Also he has 72 HP and I have 73... Also his charisma is thru the damn roof...he's got a 22. I'm pretty high on stealth stuff too but I doubt DM will give me favored terrain (underground)


Luckily he skipped fly and took haste for party performance (or not so lucky in my case). And no tricks for my wolf for now... just imp Nat armor spring attack and toughness his AC is 22


You are correct, ready doesn't work, but delay would.

Ready is a standard action, afterwards you may use a standard, move or swift when a specified event occurs. When limited to a standard action, you may charge but may only move one movement speed and may not draw a weapon without the Quick Draw feat (One could argue you are limiting yourself to a standard action and could have made a move or swift action before the ready, but so long as the PC doesn't take such actions, such an argument is pretty cheeky). You may perform many combat maneuvers as an attack action. Unfortunately, where it falls apart is that grapple is not one of those maneuvers (missed that before).

So delay instead. The gnome gets his spell off (which he would have anyway being invisible and the readied action being for becoming visible which occurs only after casting an offensive spell), so nothing lost there. End wolf's delay, move 50ft and grapple. Or if levitating, end your ranger's delay to immediately ready an action to shoot the gnome when he starts to cast. Now he has a hefty concentration check to cast anything, offensive or defensive.

I'm not saying there is no way for the ranger to lose, but the odds are mightily in his favor.


Ahhhhhhh i really like the tanglefoot arrows and i will try those... Also would i be able to get silence loaded into my spell storing arrows? And my dire wolf came mostly from epic role playing on my part and my DM'S need to see a dwarf ranger running around with a 900 lb dire wolf as his bodyguard. Also if I can close range I have a dwarven longaxe and I'm strong enough to use it really well...


If the ranger delays you use a scroll rather than casting. Well done you just wasted your turn.


I'm relying on the the chance that he has never been silenced or faced silencing magic in our campaign. And i do have quick draw if that helps. Also rapid shot many shot deadly aim, power attack and a flaming longbow.

Sczarni

andreww wrote:

The goal is to win initiative


In any PVP duel there are only 3 things that matter, Preparation, Initiative, and Terms of the Fight. If you can both prepare, the better plan will win out. Initiative is probably about 80% of who wins, sadly. If one of you has some gimping disadvantage because of the terms of the fight that is really important too.

Level six duels are usually initiative, but if you plan to use lots of consumables or Undead/Planar Allies/Golems/Simulacrums/Clones you can pull out a win even losing initiative.


andreww wrote:
If the ranger delays you use a scroll rather than casting. Well done you just wasted your turn.

If you take any offensive action, to include, but not be limited to, casting a spell, swinging a sword, or even casting an offensive spell from a scroll, you become visible. I admit, against a summoner sorcerer with invisibility it would be very different. I appreciate that you want the sorcerer to be better in this match-up than he is, and I've no doubt that against a sorcerer of your design it would be a much tougher fight. But in this case, against a blaster sorcerer without fly, it's strongly in the rangers favor.

I'm not a fan of tanglefoot arrows. They deal no damage and have a easier save versus a weaker effect. The only advantage is the range (which is still half of your normal bow range). Since your opponent specializes in a close range offensive spell, I'd stick to tanglefoot bags. However, investing in thistle arrows may be worthwhile. If you win initiative, either hit him with a tanglefoot bag (my preference) or load him up with four thistle arrows that deal their damage as a bleed over 1d6 rounds. Without healing or a heal check, he'll bleed to death whether invis or not.

The early sorcerer depends on a group for support. Use that to his disadvantage.

Certain items and conditions depend on a group's support to get you out of a bad situation. Use that to your advantage.

Dark Archive

It's all about initiative and knowing your opponent. Which neither of you have the upper hand I'm assuming. It then comes down to preparation, usually the one who prepares better will win. My money will usually be on a prepared caster.


If I did go down the blaster sorcerer route I would very definately be buying a scroll of greater invisibility or two and then peppering the ranger from range with magic missile until dead. With varisian tattoo and spell specialisation you can easily get to caster level 9 for 5d4+5 damage per round. At an average of 17.5 damage per cast and 8 level 1 spell slots the ranger is pretty much doomed unless he has some way to detect invisible opponents.

Scorching Ray does remain an option. He gets to 7th caster level for it with Pyromaniac. Two lots of 4d6 are not bad but the combination of touch attack and the effect of any degree of fire resitance make it less than viable.


Getting a permanent See Invisibility is something the Ranger should look into here. Bonus in that it would probably be really useful in a campaign too.


Quite probably although 5000gp is nearly a third of your welath at level 6. Given it is very likely to be at a caster level of 9 it is also susceptible to dispel. Thats a lot of money to spend on something which may not stick around.


For a PVP duel at level 6, hardly any chance at all of dispelling. For campaign use I agree, hire the highest level caster you know of or save your money.


Yes, the dispel comment was very much related to campaign, it will likely stick around one on one and could cause real problems for the blast focused character.

The summoner just sits levitating inside an obscuring mist/darkness/silent image summoning away until the opponent is swamped.


All very good suggestions thanks again! Also this little gnome is incredibly cocky and not the best at preparing. He does not equip any heal spells of his own and does not have fly. Also he rely more on his wand of shocking grasp than any scroll ever. He has spent most of his money on cha buffing gear and a wand. I am thinking I can use spike growth in a 20 ft circle around him to hamper his movement and possibly slow him but this would also affect my grappling wolf. He will most likely use invisibility first and if I get him to break that he has haste. Also my initiative isn't great but both he and my wolf have improved initiative. In my DM'S pvp duel my wolf and I have seperate initiative and the location is neutral and undisclosed. We get to prepare tho he cannot change his spells as I can but we will get no pre fight buffs of any kind


And unfortunately i only have 400 gold until next level. I will look into a permanent see invisibility. Can i have a helmet enchanted with that spell?


Ah yes, there is a good chance the sorcerer has magic missle known, even if he isn't optimized for it as andreww's sorcerer could be. I suggest getting a couple potions of shield for 50g each. I suggest at least two so if he dispels it you can reapply it. Magic missile is now negated.

Along that thought, maybe get some smokesticks as well. If the gnome surprises you with a tactic you didn't expect, you can give yourself concealment for very cheap (20g each). His scorching rays are ranged touch so he'll suffer miss chances even if he knows what square you're in.

Of course he could fireball or burning hands the location. Have we mentioned the importance of resist energy (fire)?


Shield cannot be made into a potion, it is a personal spell.


Protection From Evil potions will ruin a summoning sorcerer's day.


Elementals are neutral. There is no Protection from Neutrality potion.


I have both resist energy and protection from energy but I only have one 2nd lvl spell so I needto choose wisely. I have smoke arrows now as well as bane, lodestone, tanglefoot, spell storing, and cold iron. I know toot toot (the gnome) does not have fireball as he complained loudly that he took haste instead to be a team player. He recently got charm person so I think he might try to charm me. My will is abysmal at +2. And he also does not have magic missile. His primary off spell is scorching ray and backup is shocking grasp, glitter dust and ray of enfeeblement (?) Not sure onthat one...


Given your description of his choices it will be difficult for him to have any chance of winning. Bear in mind casting charm on someone you are fighting grants a +5 to the save. If your will save is low (and I imagine your pets is as well) I would be more concerned about Glitterdust.

Dark Archive

andreww wrote:
Quite probably although 5000gp is nearly a third of your welath at level 6. Given it is very likely to be at a caster level of 9 it is also susceptible to dispel. Thats a lot of money to spend on something which may not stick around.

Bah, A standard ranger will simply burn a couple hundred gold for a scroll of Bloodhound, Acute senses (8th level) and hunter's eye, pop them before the fight (they last a LONG time), mount his wolf and have it seek the non-flying caster. As long as he can stay downwind it's an auto that the wolf will find the gnome. With no ranks in it the wolf should be rocking a +50 perception bonus right now and simply taking 10 should find the gnome.

With it's standard action it moves to where the gnome is and the ranger's scent kicks in and pinpoints the gnome and grabs him. The following round is dead gnome.

As for the greater invis, go for it, that makes the fight easier for the ranger. The duration of that spell is 5 rounds and with the rangers decent stealth he can simply hide until it wears off and then pepper the gnome with arrows from 100 feet away.

This is straight ranger win unless everything possible goes wrong.


Actually my wolf has devotion to me so his will is +6. And charm person would break his invisibility and give me a chance to shoot right? And is glitter dust a will or reflex save? My fort and reflex are great as.are my wolfs.


Gnome casts levitate and invisibility, ignores ranger. Far from automatic victory.


Glitterdust is Will based but allows a save every round to remove the blindness effect. Note that Devotion only applies to enchantment spells, Glitterdust is Conjuration.


This is where the conditions of the fight matter. I've seen too many people claim victory over a wizard this way when in reality, it was the conditions of the fight that crushed the wizards perfectly legitimate strategy of teleporting.


How much would scrolls.of my 2nd and 3rd level spells cost? And my wolf is rocking a +20 perception and a +30 perception via scent. Leveling my wolf has been odd since we could not find charts for a dire wolf. My DM left some areas untouched and nerfed others. And I'm betting the setting for the fight will be a nearby treacherous Swamp that will negate my favored terrain and hamper my stealth abilities some. But the gnomes only stealth is in his spell. If he has scrolls he is too cheap to use them on me. A real gold hoarder that one... always tries to take more of the loot and fool our newcomer party members


Level 2 scrolls are generally 150gp. Level 3 are generally 375gp. These assume minimum caster level, generally 3 and 5.


Might I suggest Hunter's Eye as your second level spell then?

Hunter's Eye:
Sharpening your perceptive abilities and tuning them against obfuscating effects, hunter's eye greatly enhances your senses against the target creature. You gain the ability to perceive the target when it is invisible or ethereal as though using the see invisibility spell, and receive a +20 competence bonus on Perception checks to locate the target. You ignore concealment provided by fog or mist, blur , displacement , invisibility , and similar effects affecting the target, but not concealment provided by darkness. This spell provides no benefits to your allies, and no benefits against creatures other than the target.

I don't see charm helping to much. The spell causes you to see him as an ally, which you already do. You are engaging in a friendly, non-lethal duel. You are not dominated, cannot be forced to harm yourself, and any attack breaks the effect. If you are really worried though, and if he is evil, good, chaotic, or lawful, get a potion of protection against that alignment for 50g and be immune.

Dark Archive

If the fight is going to take place in a swamp that's just an extra win for you. You can skip most of what I said simple and simply buy a few cheap scrolls of Feather Step and Resist Energy and memorize Entangle twice. Cast feather step on the wolf and resist energy on you both and wait. As soon as he throws the first Scorching Ray at you (resist energy is all you need), suck up the pathetic amount of damage (4D6 -10 averages 4-7pts of damage a cast) and then hit the area the spell came from with an entangle and ride the wolf in.

Gnome will inevitably get entangled held in place and DC 19+ concentration checks will really cut down on all his go to tactics. Follow that up with pound of flour and an angry wolf will kill that gnome in 2'ish rounds of combat.
This should probably cost you about 105 gold to win.


Hah that sounds great! Alright I will pick up those scrolls and I'll have my buffs memorized as well as entangle twice. And i will use hunters eye to blow thru his invisibility and if we only get 2-3 rounds in he won't get a chance to charm or dominate. He will be hiding and buffing still.

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