I take a smoke arrow and blast it directly into my own square, which acts like fog cloud giving total concealment to everyone beyond 5ft away, and 20% to those who are 5ft from me....
Can I fire out of my square and hit targets without penalty?
Would those that I have total concealment with be flat-footed to my attacks?
Someone couldn't be able to take an AoO on me due to me being in this concealment, regardless if they're outside of the smoke?
Rapanuii wrote: I take a smoke arrow and blast it directly into my own square, which acts like fog cloud giving total concealment to everyone beyond 5ft away, and 20% to those who are 5ft from me....
Can I fire out of my square and hit targets without penalty?
Would those that I have total concealment with be flat-footed to my attacks?
Someone couldn't be able to take an AoO on me due to me being in this concealment, regardless if they're outside of the smoke?
Obscuring Mist wrote: The vapor obscures all sight, including darkvision, beyond 5 feet. A creature 5 feet away has concealment (attacks have a 20% miss chance). Creatures farther away have total concealment (50% miss chance, and the attacker cannot use sight to locate the target). I believe you are misinterpreting these rules as applied to a smoke arrow. The mist rules apply when there is an intervening square of smoke.
Smoke arrow creates smoke in 1 square. That means you do not have Total concealment from anyone if you are standing in that one square of smoke. You have total concealment if there is a square of smoke between you and the attacker because the attacker would now be 10' away.
If you are in the square, you can make an opposed Stealth check because the smoke offers you concealment. If you succeed, then you are considered to be "concealed" which is identical to invisible, with regards to your target. Your target isn't flat-footed, it's denied it's dex bonus, there's a difference.
To add, it requires a feat to sneak attack someone with concealment, and the fog works both ways. It provides concealment for you, and against you. Unless you have a special ability. At minimum you would need the Shadow Strike feat, or else you can't sneak attack any target with any sort of concealment from you.
How am I supposed to come to this conclusion like you did? Am I supposed to assume that everyone is within the fog to apply the farther than 5ft total concealment rule?
You are agreeing that the smoke will grant a 20% miss chance due to concealment, but I can take a stealth to gain the benefits of being invisible, right?
Claxon wrote: To add, it requires a feat to sneak attack someone with concealment, and the fog works both ways. It provides concealment for you, and against you. Unless you have a special ability. At minimum you would need the Shadow Strike feat, or else you can't sneak attack any target with any sort of concealment from you. I'm not worried about doing the sneaks. I'm just figuring out tactical advantages.
I would like to shoot this into an allies square to offer them protection as one of the many uses.
20% concealment by itself does not make enemies flat footed. It may be enough for you to use the snipe option for stealth.
I'm imagining a niche situation:
There is an empty square between the enemy and an Ifrit Rogue with a reach or ranged weapon. The Ifrit has that feat where they can see through smoke with no penalty.
You fire a smoke arrow into that empty space.
The Ifrit now has total concealment against his target, and is able to Sneak Attack with no penalty.
Mojorat wrote: 20% concealment by itself does not make enemies flat footed. It may be enough for you to use the snipe option for stealth. Yes, but if the over 5ft to get total concealment happened, then enemies would be getting attacked as Flat-Footed. Apparently I can't become Totally concealed in this.
So, I'm left with 20% concealment when in this square. Good enough for me with what I want to do.
Do I suffer penalties while being in this square in regards to attacking out of it?
Just the 20% miss chance (which usually negates your ability to Sneak Attack, as well).
Nefreet wrote: Just the 20% miss chance (which usually negates your ability to Sneak Attack, as well). for clarification, person inside the smoke also suffers a 20% miss?
You suffer no penalties if you are an Ifrit with the Firesight Feat, otherwise you WILL suffer the miss chance. Ifrits get Dex and Cha bonuses anyways, so they should make good ninjas. Not liking the race flavour would be a bit unfortunate!
Rapanuii wrote: Nefreet wrote: Just the 20% miss chance (which usually negates your ability to Sneak Attack, as well). for clarification, person inside the smoke also suffers a 20% miss? No. You don't take any penalty for firing out of a smoke square. Only for firing through a smoke square or into one.
Rapanuii wrote: I would like to shoot this into an allies square to offer them protection as one of the many uses. Yes. I carry smoke arrows for exactly this reason. However, the nature of the game is that you are often just better off shooting the bad guys. The other downside is the ally can't move. If he does, then the enemy can take the square and gain the benefits.
Rapanuii wrote: You are agreeing that the smoke will grant a 20% miss chance due to concealment, but I can take a stealth to gain the benefits of being invisible, right? Yes. If you are in a smoke hex, you get 20% concealment. Concealment and Cover are usually the only ways you can make opposed Stealth checks, afaik. A smoke filled square provides Concealment (20% miss chance).
Rapanuii wrote: then enemies would be getting attacked as Flat-Footed. Enemies are not "flat footed" against invisible or concealed attackers. They are "denied their dex bonus". There's a difference. It would improve the discussion if you made the distinction.
Allies being flanked, or in too deep with a creature with a lot of threatened squares so they can drink a potion or many other things to protect themselves is the idea.
I apologize for not realizing the difference between ff and denied dex, and I hope you're not talking down to me in frustration. There is a reason I use the rules form, and that's to better understand the game. I do appreciate your help a lot for the record.
If my archer uses her first ranged attack to shot an opponent and her second attack to shot her square with a smoke arrow and then makes a stealth check to hide. Is the stealth check made without penalty or does is suffer the -20 penalty like sniping?
jesterle wrote: If my archer uses her first ranged attack to shot an opponent and her second attack to shot her square with a smoke arrow and then makes a stealth check to hide. Is the stealth check made without penalty or does is suffer the -20 penalty like sniping? The rules are a little and confusing here if the fact pattern doesn't match the example:
PRD wrote:
Breaking Stealth: When you start your turn using Stealth, you can leave cover or concealment and remain unobserved as long as you succeed at a Stealth check and end your turn in cover or concealment. Your Stealth immediately ends after you make and attack roll, whether or not the attack is successful (except when sniping as noted below).
Sniping: If you've already successfully used Stealth at least 10 feet from your target, you can make one ranged attack and then immediately use Stealth again. You take a –20 penalty on your Stealth check to maintain your obscured location.[
Action: Usually none. Normally, you make a Stealth check as part of movement, so it doesn't take a separate action. However, using Stealth immediately after a ranged attack (see Sniping, above) is a move action. 1. Per the rules, using Stealth after you attack is a move action, so you can't fire twice.
2. It's not clear that you can actually use Stealth after a melee attack, but the rules say concealment allows you to use Stealth even when you're being observed.
3. If we extrapolate the sniping rules to melee, you could argue that one cannot use Stealth after having attacked.
My guess is that the developers wanted to stop rogues from using a smoke stick with high Stealth and essentially getting Sneak Damage while standing right next to someone with a bow. A strict reading of the sniping rules seems to create contradictions with regards to total darkness/blind opponents. Maybe others can weigh in.
Nefreet wrote: Just the 20% miss chance (which usually negates your ability to Sneak Attack, as well). So, interesting thought. Ranged attacks origionate at the corner of the square. The corner has a clear line of site to the target which does not pass through the smoke. Therefore, ranged attacks out of a smoke / fog square do not suffer 20% miss chance...?
Ennemies are flat footed only when they didn't act yet in combat, or with rare abilities (I can recall a feat that grants it to ennemies you hit).
Concealment, be it partial or total doesn't make ennemies flat footed, neither do they lose their dexterity bonus to AC.
Stealth is only useful for sneak attacks by allowing the rogue to get close to ennemies PRIOR to the beginning of the fight without being noticed. As ennemies didn't act yet (roud of surprise, ...), they are flat footed.
PRD : "Unaware Combatants: Combatants who are unaware at the start of battle don't get to act in the surprise round. Unaware combatants are flat-footed because they have not acted yet, so they lose any Dexterity bonus to AC."
(Emphasis is mine, showing what's to recall).
Remember that if they detect any member of your group, ennemies will eventually get into the surprise round too, which can greatly reduce your SA output. If no one is considered surprised (your group saw the ennemies in advance, and all your ennemies noticed your fighter in full plate with his single digit stealth check), there is no surprise round at all (so it depends entirely on initiative in that situation).
I repeat one more time : concealment (with or without a stealth check) doesn't make your ennemies lose their DEX bonus to AC, so it doesn't allow you to get SA damage Well, neither in the rules nor in the FAQ anyway (but some designers have commented to allow it in their games which would make sense to homogenize it with Invisibility and blinded).
Being in smoke might not be the best idea...
Smoke Effects, Environment CRB wrote: A character who breathes heavy smoke must make a Fortitude save each round (DC 15, +1 per previous check) or spend that round choking and coughing. A character who chokes for 2 consecutive rounds takes 1d6 points of nonlethal damage. Smoke obscures vision, giving concealment (20% miss chance) to characters within it.
FrodoOf9Fingers wrote: Being in smoke might not be the best idea...
Smoke Effects, Environment CRB wrote: A character who breathes heavy smoke must make a Fortitude save each round (DC 15, +1 per previous check) or spend that round choking and coughing. A character who chokes for 2 consecutive rounds takes 1d6 points of nonlethal damage. Smoke obscures vision, giving concealment (20% miss chance) to characters within it.
I'm pretty sure Obscuring Mist does not count as "heavy smoke"
FLite wrote: Nefreet wrote: Just the 20% miss chance (which usually negates your ability to Sneak Attack, as well). So, interesting thought. Ranged attacks origionate at the corner of the square. The corner has a clear line of site to the target which does not pass through the smoke. Therefore, ranged attacks out of a smoke / fog square do not suffer 20% miss chance...? I've been going back and forth on this for the last couple days.
Mistmail exists, and it's quite often the key to a few Sneak Attack builds.
I suppose as long as your target does not have concealment, whether you're using ranged or melee, then you don't suffer any miss chance.
It runs counter to my verisimilitude, because if you're in a square of smoke, it seems to me like you're the one who's getting blinded, but I digress.
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Avh wrote: I repeat one more time : concealment (with or without a stealth check) doesn't make your ennemies lose their DEX bonus to AC There's a fair bit of confusion on this. However, I believe a definitive answer to this question is provided by another entry dealing with the subject.
Blindsense wrote: Any opponent that cannot be seen has total concealment (50% miss chance) against a creature with blindsense, and the blindsensing creature still has the normal miss chance when attacking foes that have concealment. Visibility still affects the movement of a creature with blindsense. A creature with blindsense is still denied its Dexterity bonus to Armor Class against attacks from creatures it cannot see. While this passage is referring to creatures with Blindsense, it still proves the general case:
A creature is still denied its Dexterity Bonus to Armor Class against attacks from a creature it cannot see.
Stealth wrote: Creatures that fail to beat your Stealth check are not aware of you and treat you as if you had concealment. A rogue that's using Stealth to remain hidden in a square of smoke, for which the defender does not beat with an opposed Perception check, would get sneak attack damage against that target because the defender is denied their dex bonus. Grant it, the rule states "concealment" which is typically the 20% variety, but it also states that the defender is not aware of the Rogue. When they errata'd Stealth last year, this seemed to cause some confusion.
Now, the rules don't have a specific entry that says Total Concealment Attack = Defender Denied Dex Bonus, but that's the rule per other entries. I'm not going to pretend this is clear as day. The rules are confusing with Stealth and even somewhat contradictory.
Ammunition (Bow): Arrow(s), Smoke
Quote: This arrow is actually a specially-shaped smokestick that can be fired from a bow.
Benefit: A smoke arrow trails smoke as it flies, and creates a 5-foot cube of smoke where it strikes.
Smokestick
Quote: This alchemically treated wooden stick instantly creates thick, opaque smoke when burned. ...treat the effect as a fog cloud spell, except that a moderate or stronger wind dissipates the smoke in 1 round... The stick is consumed after 1 round, and the smoke dissipates naturally after 1 minute. Fog Cloud
Quote: A bank of fog billows out from the point you designate. The fog obscures all sight, including darkvision, beyond 5 feet. A creature within 5 feet has concealment (attacks have a 20% miss chance). Creatures farther away have total concealment (50% miss chance, and the attacker can't use sight to locate the target). --Deeper than 5' in the fog.
Sneak Attack
Quote: The rogue must be able to see the target well enough to pick out a vital spot and must be able to reach such a spot. A rogue cannot sneak attack while striking a creature with concealment. Concealment
Quote: You can't execute an attack of opportunity against an opponent with total concealment, even if you know what square or squares the opponent occupies. 1) The smoke arrow creates a 5'cube of smoke where it lands for, I believe, 1 minute.
2) Smoke/fog gives a concealment of 20% for 5' thick and 50% for anything greater.
3) If its less than 5' there is no concealment.
4) The concealment works both ways.
5) You cannot normally sneak attack a creature with concealment.
6) Since you only have 20% concealment max, you can still provoke AoO.
A) Shooting it into your square won't give you concealment, because there is not 5' between you and the enemy.
B) Shooting it directly between you and your enemy would give you both 20% concealment from one another.
C) All you enemy would have to do is step 10'-15' to the side to be able to see you.
D) Hunter's Eye (spell), Firesight (feat) and Cloud Gazer (feat) allow you to see though the smoke and ignore the concealment.
F) Shadow Strike (feat) allows you to sneak attack against non-total concealment.
What your trying to do can be done with a smoke stick, which fills a 10'x10' cube, have any of the feats from D above and be with in 30' of your target. Shadow Strike would work but your target would still have total concealment (guess what square he's in + 50% miss chance).
Are there any rules suggestig smoke and fog are the same thing or that their rules interact? Ive always treated them as very separate. To me a mokestick doesnt have anything wihv obscuring mist to do, but with pyrotechnics.
N N 959 wrote: FrodoOf9Fingers wrote: Being in smoke might not be the best idea...
Smoke Effects, Environment CRB wrote: A character who breathes heavy smoke must make a Fortitude save each round (DC 15, +1 per previous check) or spend that round choking and coughing. A character who chokes for 2 consecutive rounds takes 1d6 points of nonlethal damage. Smoke obscures vision, giving concealment (20% miss chance) to characters within it.
I'm pretty sure Obscuring Mist does not count as "heavy smoke" Obscuring Mist and the Fog spells do not create smoke unless cast with a smokestick as a spell component. Now, the Sylph Cloud Gazer racial feat allows for sight through fog/mist/cloud effects, though there's debate over how exactly that feat works with magically created fog/mists/clouds. Cloud Gazer should not grant vision through smoke, and Firesight should not grant vision through fog, mists or clouds unless those were generated by a spell with a smokestick component.
Quote: Smokestick: ...treat the effect as a fog cloud spell... Quote: Alchemical Power Components
Smokesticks work best with spells that create clouds or smoke.
Fog Cloud (M): Increase the radius of the cloud by 5 feet.
Obscuring Mist (M): The spell creates a smoky haze instead of mist. This haze cannot be dispersed by fire spells and dissipates naturally after 1 minute.
There is some minor correlation. Smoke sticks are treated as fog cloud (which isn't harmful to breath in). Smoke sticks turn obscuring mist into smoke, but only expand Fog Cloud.
I'm looking at both as particles suspended in the air; for rulings on what would and wouldn't work through them. Maybe not RAW, but common sense. (Yes I know magic doesn't make sense).
Splendor wrote:
A) Shooting it into your square won't give you concealment, because there is not 5' between you and the enemy.
B) Shooting it directly between you and your enemy would give you both 20% concealment from one another.
C) All you enemy would have to do is step 10'-15' to the side to be able to see you.
D) Hunter's Eye (spell), Firesight (feat) and Cloud Gazer (feat) allow you to see though the smoke and ignore the concealment.
F) Shadow Strike (feat) allows you to sneak attack against non-total concealment.
You are incorrect on A and C. Read the RAW on Concealment and note the bolded text. B is debatable.
Conceaelment wrote: Concealment
To determine whether your target has concealment from your ranged attack, choose a corner of your square. If any line from this corner to any corner of the target's square passes through a square or border that provides concealment, the target has concealment.
When making a melee attack against an adjacent target, your target has concealment if his space is entirely within an effect that grants concealment. When making a melee attack against a target that isn't adjacent to you, use the rules for determining concealment from ranged attacks.
A - For ranged attacks, an attacker has to be able to fire to ALL CORNERS of the defender's square without passing through a square with smoke. If the Defender is in a square with smoke, you automatically fail this requirement and the Defender has 20% concealment.
For Melee, once again, you are attacking a Defender whose entire square is filled with smoke. Concealment applies.
B - This one is a little tricker and is open to debate. It's typically played that if there is a smoke filled square between the Defender and the Attacker, then both have TOTAL concealment from one another because they are 10' away from each other. One could interpret the rules that the Defender must also be standing in a smoke filled square. I'm actually inclined to agree that if smoke only fills one square between them then it is 20%.
C - No. Reread the rules on concealment. In order to avoid a square filled with a concealment effect, the attacker must be on a straight line to the target or lower than the smoke square. Remember, with ranged attacks you must be able to target all corners of the Defender's square free and clear. If even one line from the Attacker's square passes through the smallest fraction of the smoke filled square, Concealment applies.
What is true is that you can avoid total concealment by stepping to the side and gaining line of sight. But this is subject to GM discretion, just like Partial Cover rules.
What the OP is trying to do can be done with a smoke arrow.
Splendor wrote: Quote: Smokestick: ...treat the effect as a fog cloud spell... Quote: Alchemical Power Components
Smokesticks work best with spells that create clouds or smoke.
Fog Cloud (M): Increase the radius of the cloud by 5 feet.
Obscuring Mist (M): The spell creates a smoky haze instead of mist. This haze cannot be dispersed by fire spells and dissipates naturally after 1 minute.
There is some minor correlation. Smoke sticks are treated as fog cloud (which isn't harmful to breath in). Smoke sticks turn obscuring mist into smoke, but only expand Fog Cloud.
I'm looking at both as particles suspended in the air; for rulings on what would and wouldn't work through them. Maybe not RAW, but common sense. (Yes I know magic doesn't make sense). Good point about the fog. If I had a DM who allowed both I'd be super happy, because, hey, why shoot a gift horse in the mouth, right?
I daresay the RAW treats things a bit strictly, though. For example, smoke and mist/fog/clouds are treated as different things. Fire burns away the latter while the former is unaffected. Plus, the fact that the two feats refer to them as different sources of vision limiters seems like the final nail in the coffin.
From a lore-based view it also makes sense. Efreeti and fire elementals live in places with lots of fire and smoke, and fire removes water vapour. For the Djinn and air elementals, it's the opposite. If they were to pass on their adaptations to progeny, these should be for things found in their natural environments.
N N 959 wrote: FrodoOf9Fingers wrote: Being in smoke might not be the best idea...
Smoke Effects, Environment CRB wrote: A character who breathes heavy smoke must make a Fortitude save each round (DC 15, +1 per previous check) or spend that round choking and coughing. A character who chokes for 2 consecutive rounds takes 1d6 points of nonlethal damage. Smoke obscures vision, giving concealment (20% miss chance) to characters within it.
I'm pretty sure Obscuring Mist does not count as "heavy smoke" Thankfully, I wasn't talking about Obscuring Mist, I was talking about smoke :P, the thread of the title does involve smoke arrows...
Okay, here's a scenario I want to make sure works since it borrows from a number of points addressed in this thread.
The rogue has the Shadow Strike Feat, the Fast Stealth Rogue Trick, has one iterative attack, is armed with a one handed weapon and has a spring loaded wrist sheath on the other arm loaded with a wand of Obscuring Mist. Her UMD is high enough that activating the wand is a non-issue. Her Stealth is also similarly high.
For the sake of argument, she is fighting without allies and is in combat with only one opponent. It is her turn and she is 15 feet away from her opponent. She uses a Swift action to pop the wand of Obscuring Mist from the spring loaded wrist sheath, a Standard to activate the wand (which she successfully does) and now she and her opponent are in the Obscuring Mist, are more than 5 feet from one another and have total concealment from each other. Finally, she uses Stealth during her move action to approach her opponent (who she knows the position of). For the sake of argument, she succeeds at her Stealth check and has moved from a point of concealment to another point of concealment (all points within the Obscuring Mist provide concealment), so she is still in Stealth.
On the opponents turn, he attempts to actively perceive the Rogue but fails to locate her even though she is 5 feet away. Mr. Opponent is an idiot and delays.
It is now the Rogue's second round. She is 5 feet away, beginning the round from Stealth and a point of concealment. She makes another Stealth check and succeeds. She full attacks her opponent and succeeds on both Concealment checks.
Does her sneak attack go off for both her normal and iterative attacks on the opponent?
MrRetsej wrote: Okay, here's a scenario I want to make sure works since it borrows from a number of points addressed in this thread.
The rogue has the Shadow Strike Feat, the Fast Stealth Rogue Trick, has one iterative attack, is armed with a one handed weapon and has a spring loaded wrist sheath on the other arm loaded with a wand of Obscuring Mist. Her UMD is high enough that activating the wand is a non-issue. Her Stealth is also similarly high.
For the sake of argument, she is fighting without allies and is in combat with only one opponent. It is her turn and she is 15 feet away from her opponent. She uses a Swift action to pop the wand of Obscuring Mist from the spring loaded wrist sheath, a Standard to activate the wand (which she successfully does) and now she and her opponent are in the Obscuring Mist, are more than 5 feet from one another and have total concealment from each other. Finally, she uses Stealth during her move action to approach her opponent (who she knows the position of). For the sake of argument, she succeeds at her Stealth check and has moved from a point of concealment to another point of concealment (all points within the Obscuring Mist provide concealment), so she is still in Stealth.
On the opponents turn, he attempts to actively perceive the Rogue but fails to locate her even though she is 5 feet away. Mr. Opponent is an idiot and delays.
It is now the Rogue's second round. She is 5 feet away, beginning the round from Stealth and a point of concealment. She makes another Stealth check and succeeds. She full attacks her opponent and succeeds on both Concealment checks.
Does her sneak attack go off for both her normal and iterative attacks on the opponent?
no, just the first. Her attack breaks stealth and at 5' distance she no longer has concealment from the obscuring mist. She could make an attack action, 5' step away from her opponent, then take a move action to re-stealth with the concealment bonus and the -20 sniping bonus.
cnetarian wrote: no, just the first. Her attack breaks stealth... If the Rogue steps back, she gains Total Concealment and also gets +20 on her Stealth attempt as being invisible. So the -20 +20 cancel out and the Rogue gets a normal opposed Stealth check.
However, the snipping rules have several conditions precedent that the Rogue does not satisfy as it specifically applies to "ranged" attacks and not melee. What happens in melee? If it's the same as ranged attacks, then why does the rule specifically talk about ranged attacks?
Clear as mud.
Thanks for the clarification. At the very least it will be a sound (and cinematic) tactic up until she has iterative attacks. =)
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