It just seems kinda weird, especially when you're attacking with a bomb or alchemist's fire. Who cares if the bomb hits that single little spider? I think it should deal the same damage regardless, as long as you hit the swarm as a "whole".
Smaller swarms can 'open up' to dodge thrown objects, letting it pass harmlessly through them. You might be able to hit a bat hard enough for your flask to break, but good luck with a swarm of bees.
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Well flask damage is not area damage, only the splash is.
So for example a swarm consisting of diminutive creatures is immune to the direct damage of an acid flask, but will take 1 point of damage from the splash.
Swams aren't immune to the direct damage. That direct damage is still the central part of the area's "splash". I'm using quotes there because I don't mean it in game terminology where splash is the 1 damage, I mean the splash of what comes out of the flask in all 9 squares.
Since he mentioned hitting 'one tiny little spider', I assumed he was targeting the swarm directly, not just using splash damage.
If that was so, alchemist fire would deal exactly 1 damage to a swarm. Seems a bit harsh to me.
Str poisons in inhaled form work wonderfully...swarms usually have crap saves and little to no str
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Correct. Alchemist Fire is not a good method to deal with swarms.
So according to this logic, if you don't have an alchemist or evoker, you're screwed, no matter how otherwise prepared you are.
Then why do people like Erik Mona always say that swarms are part of the reason you should always bring a vial of alchemist's fire along?
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Also, swarms aren't only vulnerable to splash damage or area effects. They're immune to weapon damage. Alchemist fire and vials of acid don't deal weapon damage. They are splash weapons. They deal fire or acid damage.
A swarm takes half again as much damage (+50%) from spells or effects that affect an area, such as splash weapons and many evocation spells.
"Such as splash weapons".
So either this is a completely redundant line (it was added before bombs existed, and the only splash weapons were acid and alchemist fire, which only deal 1 point of splash damage) or you're off-base.
EDIT: Also, note that it does not say "such as splash damage". It's splash weapons. Splash weapons are an exception to the "no attacks" rule.
Swarms are kinda messed up. They have a defensive ability (immunity to weapons) that makes them really scary and hard to handle at low level, but most swarms are low CR creatures.
The more ways lower level characters (or ANY characters, for that matter) have to fight swarms, the better. And letting the energy part of a flaming or shock or whatever weapon damage swarms is a good way to do that.
And the mental image of using a flaming sword, or heck, even a torch, to swing through a swarm to fight it and do damage to it is cool and believable.
This heavily implies that torches or flaming swords should work on swarms. And if they even have a chance at it, there's no reason a flask of acid wouldn't work.
first off, while a completely agree with what JJ says in that quote, thats not an official ruling, so has no grounds here. thats just his opinion.
secondly, a flaming weapon swung through a swarm would deal 1D6 damage to the swarm as a whole. but no weapon damage and no splash damage. i would even say that you dont even have to make an attack roll to do it, just stick it out into the swarm. a torch however does not list fire damage anywhere in its description when it talks about how you can use it as a weapon, so what would the damage be? there are no official rules on how this works, although thematically, it makes sense. so as far as being within the rules, you can do 1 damage if you are equipped properly, if not, run...
I would agree with the "1d6 damage" ruling.
Also, a torch does deal fire damage.
Torch: A torch burns for 1 hour, shedding normal light in a 20-foot radius and increasing the light level by one step for an additional 20 feet beyond that area (darkness becomes dim light and dim light becomes normal light). A torch does not increase the light level in normal light or bright light. If a torch is used in combat, treat it as a one-handed improvised weapon that deals bludgeoning damage equal to that of a gauntlet of its size, plus 1 point of fire damage.
It says takes half again as much damage from spells or effects that affect an area. The initial hit of a splash weapon does not target an area.
It also specifically calls out splash weapons as being treated like spells or effects that target an area.
Here:
A swarm takes half again as much damage (+50%) from spells or effects that affect an area, such as splash weapons and many evocation spells.
I would agree with the "1d6 damage" ruling.
Also, a torch does deal fire damage.
Torch: A torch burns for 1 hour, shedding normal light in a 20-foot radius and increasing the light level by one step for an additional 20 feet beyond that area (darkness becomes dim light and dim light becomes normal light). A torch does not increase the light level in normal light or bright light. If a torch is used in combat, treat it as a one-handed improvised weapon that deals bludgeoning damage equal to that of a gauntlet of its size, plus 1 point of fire damage.
hmmm....i must have bad info...
It is kinda hidden away in there.
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I'm not exactly sure what you mean, but the splash that comes out of the flask in all 9 squares (if you target a creature) or 4 squares (if you target a grid intersection) is 1 damage for an acid flask.
This isn't right - the direct damage is what you target in the central square, and the "splash" is what hits the area around it. If you throw an acid flask at a square that a swarm is in, it deals 1d6 damage to the swarm. You can't target "one spider" in the swarm.
A hit deals direct hit damage to the target, and splash damage to all creatures within 5 feet of the target. If the target is Large or larger, you choose one of its squares and the splash damage affects creatures within 5 feet of that square.
Every creature within 5 feet of the point where the acid hits takes 1 point of acid damage from the splash.
Direct damage and splash damage don't stack; the higher one applies.
Alchemist's fire or acid flasks are very effective at low levels for killing swarms, specifically for this reason and their vulnerability.
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Correct the splash part of a splash weapon is an area effect which would gain the 50% damage increase, for example the splash part of an acid flask would be 1 damage + 50%, 1,5 damage, which you'd round down again to 1 damage.It says takes half again as much damage from spells or effects that affect an area. The initial hit of a splash weapon does not target an area.It also specifically calls out splash weapons as being treated like spells or effects that target an area.
Here:
A swarm takes half again as much damage (+50%) from spells or effects that affect an area, such as splash weapons and many evocation spells.
Please stop being an adversarial GM. Swarms are subject to normal damage from splash weapons.
Specific overrules general. Splash weapons explicitly work on swarms, dealing 1d6 damage +50%.
Effect is not a defined game term akd the common language meaning of it is wide enough to be able to consider all the damage being one effect, that has an area. Its just that the effect is stronger in the center. Also, the rule clearly syates that splash weapons are effects with an area. It does not say "such as some effects splash weapons may have" - it says "such as splash weapons". So a splash weapon is explicily either an area effect or an area spell, and since spell is a defined game term while effect is not, it is an area effect.
It is 100% certainly RAI, andit is a completely fine way to read the rules. Consciously going against a valid interpretation that is clearly RAI and opting for a weird interpretation that leaves parts of sentences meaningless is just... Weird.
When throwing a splash weapon at a spider swarm, your target is the swarm not one spider.
I believe the problem here is that those splash weapons do not specifically mention if their direct damage is indeed single-target damage, or effectively a splash effect against a single 5ft square.
Add to that another problem - splash weapons consist of a harful substance and its container. To use it you need to break the container against something. If you target a square you don't actually target the space itself, but most probably the floor/ground or a wall next to it - and that's what the direct hit (and thus direct damage) actually goes againt. You can't target empty space because the container won't break against empty space (unless you set a fuse and it just goes off while it flies by).
And if you target the creatures in a swarm..well - a glass flask usually has more hardness than a diminutive creature, not to mention you'd effectively be hitting single creatures in a swarm, perhaps multiple consecutively, but not simultaneously.
There is also the option of just walking by and spraying the substance over the square (an option which, as I believe, might have been covered with holy water used against incorporeal undead). And perhaps that's what the swarm AC is mostly about.
Sometimes you need to apply a bit of common sense not just blind rules. And if you REALLY can't - there's the golden rule.