I asked in Rules just to clarify that it was not pathfinder rules, and having received confirmation, am now here asking for help in rectifying the issue. :)
Other thread: http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2qth7?Spellbook-as-scrolls-and-related-shenanig ans#1
I'm gonna try and keep this short.
Wizard is using spellbooks as scrolls, and acted like it was how it was supposed to work. He was a player who learned in 2nd edition, so likely not malicious (Since that was a popular 2nd edition homebrew rule).
I'm now asking for advice because:
The wizard used this as part of a loophole that ended up with him getting near infinite Wish usages (Before the game even started!), and a crap ton of money/valuable items (I have no idea how it works, cept for "Pretty well actually"). This is part of the reason why he is has 30 int, he should have around 22 or so otherwise. The GM managed to incorporate this into the campaign (And that level 20+ Wizard is coming to get his stuff back :P), he did not raise many objections at the time, the Wizard being a good friend, the person who is GMing the other Pathfinder game we're in, and is supposed to be the second most experienced player in our group.
The Wizard is casting higher level spells (Those he has no slot for (Max of level 3 spells, spell is level 4), but could eventually cast when he levels), and saying it's fine because it's in the spellbook, he "Knows" it as a result. He does have the stat for it as a result. (Clarification, it was pointed out at rules that he can still ADD higher level spells to his rulebook. I think this is likely how he got the Wish spell, I bet he added it to spellbook somehow, and then cast it from his spellbook, since his interpretation was that it was reusable).
I don't think the Wizard is being malicious, he's just very mistaken. The GM is new, and learning, and got steamrolled by an experienced player. Aside from this, the game is going GREAT, and most everyone is really enjoying themselves. :)
I am a neutral third party, and have been "Assigned"/requested to look this up, and report back to the GM. :)
Any help would be appreciated.
Ideas generated so far:
-Spellbooks used already that belonged to high level wizard were artifacts that could be used this way, normal spellbooks do not work this way.
-Or, spellbooks can be used this way, but it's consumed, and causes damage to nearby spells in book, possibly even destroying the book (A chance to do so).
Spellbooks cannot, and will not be allowed to work this way, 900g to make a reusable scroll of Wish? Oh god! XD
There's a reason they're so expensive!
....Ok, my advice is that the GM should exercise his right to banhammer on the grounds that he deserves mercy, and that he could not make a game that could challenge this guy without steamrolling the rest of the party as a result. And as another general rule in this case: if they can't explain it to the GM's satisfaction, then no, they can't have it. The fact that they refuse to explain their shenanigans in simple terms reeks of munchkins (especially since it was "I totally did this during my exciting backstory").
Note: from what little I read in the link, I agree with Belafon. A (rightfully annoyed) epic level wizard makes a rather effective banhammer to smack a powergamer without stepping out of the story. He can't just drop something like that as the reason why he gets infinite wishes and not expect it to bite him in the rear.
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Well. In pathfinder, you just can't use scrolls all Willy nilly. There's rules for the scrolls.
1: does he meet the minimum level requirements to cast the spell without the scroll. If so, he's fine. If not, then he needs to make an opposing concentration check versus 15+double the spells level. So wish, I believe is a 8 or 9th lvl spell, you are looking at a dc30-40 check.
2: when he uses the scroll. It gets used up. It's unusable anymore. Unless he wastes his wish to wish a new wish then it's almost impossible to do it.
3: if he doesn't want to do the concentration check, he needs to do a use magic device check. It's 20+ scrolls caster level (minimum lvl needed to cast the spell)
That is... oh god, that is awful. That guy is breaking the game so bad it's not even funny, and it's nowhere near within the rules what he's doing. I'm not sure I could play in a game with someone like that unless those powers were taken away or some magicky stuff happened to bring the rest of you up to his level.
Baby needs to have his toys taken away.
Well. In pathfinder, you just can't use scrolls all Willy nilly. There's rules for the scrolls.
1: does he meet the minimum level requirements to cast the spell without the scroll. If so, he's fine. If not, then he needs to make an opposing concentration check versus 15+double the spells level. So wish, I believe is a 8 or 9th lvl spell, you are looking at a dc30-40 check.
2: when he uses the scroll. It gets used up. It's unusable anymore. Unless he wastes his wish to wish a new wish then it's almost impossible to do it.
3: if he doesn't want to do the concentration check, he needs to do a use magic device check. It's 20+ scrolls caster level (minimum lvl needed to cast the spell)
No, if the scroll has a higher caster level than you, you have to do a caster level check DC (scroll's caster level)+1. If that fails, you roll a DC 5 wisdom check to avoid a scroll mishap.
UMD never enters the question unless you are trying to use a scroll to cast a spell that you can't cast or isn't on your spell list (so a witch trying to cast wish would have to use UMD, but a wizard wouldn't), and even then you still have to do the caster level check.| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
and then cast it from his spellbook, since his interpretation was that it was reusable).
His interpretation is wrong. When you use the house-rule that a spellbook can be used as a scroll, then you have to accept that the spellbook is used as a scroll. The pages he casts from, crumble into dust.
Provided you keep that part fixed, allowing spellbooks to be used as scrolls is not an overpowered option.
The original owner wizard returning is an alright idea. Well, nothing wrong with it. But I can't help but be petty & feel disdain for this total stranger. So I instead suggest a Paladin or some other LG holy character make an appearance. She's been tracking the book for some time now. How? It's evil. There's a trail for miles if not more. The book is an artifact that grants great abilities, yes. But after some time, the user is irreparably cursed. And that time is close, even if the character stops using the tome.
A few curse ideas. Ability score decreases that correspond with the increases. Constantly detecting as an evil cleric. One way trip to the Abyss if dead. Be under the Bestow Curse half action curse. Receive negative levels. Etc.
But to not be completely evil, there are ways out of this as well. Powerful & expensive services, or a deity's blessings that can't be bought, that would remove the curse. Or perhaps line up a series of holy quests that allow the negatives to slowly be negated as the campaign progresses. Heck, maybe just living a LG life or something would help negate the detriments. In other words, work it off.
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I cannot even comprehend the degree by which this dude is blatantly abusing the game, your GM, and your group.
Wow.
Okay. So, lemme get this straight. Dude has a bunch of spellbooks he somehow took from a 20+ level wizard, which have all sorts of spells... what like all of them?
Already this is unbelievable, and quite powerful. How does a 20+ level wizard get hoodwinked by some low level wizard??
Anyway... so he has this book. And... is casting the spells in it like they are scrolls? Jesus.
What is worse... somehow this doesn't consume them?? Wut.
And even more disturbing... he has access to wish, and is being allowed to wish for more wishes??? What in the %^&*....
And he has used wishes to pump up his stats, and get free gear???
Ahhhhhhhh ohmygawd.
The penalty for this kind of abuse can only be.....
...
..
.
His character must be put down. Everything must be reclaimed, revoked, repealed. Strip him of everything, and then put the squealing fledgling caster's neck to the axe.
I think there is a level 20+ deus ex machina handy.
Well, maybe they like the abuse ;-). No but seriously, wizards are quite powerful enough without this abomination of a mistake being allowed. Says to me your group needs to sit down and have an informed discussion.
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I asked in Rules just to clarify that it was not pathfinder rules, and having received confirmation, am now here asking for help in rectifying the issue. :)
Other thread: http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2qth7?Spellbook-as-scrolls-and-related-shenanig ans#1
I'm gonna try and keep this short.
Wizard is using spellbooks as scrolls, and acted like it was how it was supposed to work. He was a player who learned in 2nd edition, so likely not malicious (Since that was a popular 2nd edition homebrew rule).
I'm now asking for advice because:
The wizard used this as part of a loophole that ended up with him getting near infinite Wish usages (Before the game even started!), and a crap ton of money/valuable items (I have no idea how it works, cept for "Pretty well actually"). This is part of the reason why he is has 30 int, he should have around 22 or so otherwise. The GM managed to incorporate this into the campaign (And that level 20+ Wizard is coming to get his stuff back :P), he did not raise many objections at the time, the Wizard being a good friend, the person who is GMing the other Pathfinder game we're in, and is supposed to be the second most experienced player in our group.
The Wizard is casting higher level spells (Those he has no slot for (Max of level 3 spells, spell is level 4), but could eventually cast when he levels), and saying it's fine because it's in the spellbook, he "Knows" it as a result. He does have the stat for it as a result. (Clarification, it was pointed out at rules that he can still ADD higher level spells to his rulebook. I think this is likely how he got the Wish spell, I bet he added it to spellbook somehow, and then cast it from his spellbook, since his interpretation was that it was reusable).
I don't think the Wizard is being malicious, he's just very mistaken. The GM is new, and learning, and got steamrolled by an experienced player. Aside from this, the game is going GREAT, and most everyone is really enjoying themselves. :)
I am a neutral third party, and...
The book tells you at what levels you can cast spells. Having in your spellbook does not mean you can cast it.
Spellbooks do not work as scrolls, and there is no rule that says it does. The rules are permissive, and they tell you what you can do, so if there is no rule saying he can, then he can't.
As for casting spells from a spellbook he has to be able to prepare that spell. He can't do it without a spell slot of that level, and the book has a chart that says when those slots become available. For wizards 9th level spells become available at level 17.
If he wants to argue otherwise tell him to quote the rule from the book that he is using. Pathfinder is not AD&D so he can't go by the way things "used to be".
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Sorry, but I have a hard time believing that a player using some infinite wishes trick to get himself rich and powerful at the time of character creation is 'simply mistaken' and honestly believing he did his character according to the usual rules.
Together with the rest of the group or at least the GM, tell him that his character wasn't build following the rules, explain to him the rules he missed or misused and then ask him if he would like to rectify his character or create a new one according to the rules.
and then cast it from his spellbook, since his interpretation was that it was reusable).His interpretation is wrong. When you use the house-rule that a spellbook can be used as a scroll, then you have to accept that the spellbook is used as a scroll. The pages he casts from, crumble into dust.
Provided you keep that part fixed, allowing spellbooks to be used as scrolls is not an overpowered option.
This would be more evenly-powered, but you would still be getting a pretty hefty discount over using scrolls. I just want to point out a flaw if players use spellbooks in this manner in anything other than a last resort.
EDIT: To clarify - I'm not sure if the pricing of scrolls to spellbooks changed between editions, so this is about bringing the house rule right into Pathfinder.[/edit]
Consider a scroll of greater teleport, a 7th-level wizard/sorcerer spell with no expensive material components. It would cost 2,275 gp to purchase this scroll with a caster level of 13. If the wizard wanted to create the scroll himself, it would cost half of that, but he would need the feat Scribe Scroll, would need to spend three days creating it (possibly longer or shorter depending on if they are adventuring or accelerating the work they are doing), and would need to devote a 7th-level spell slot each day that they are working on this (assuming he already knew the spell).
If they wanted to scribe this spell into their spellbook, it would cost 490 gp in materials; if they are duplicating an existing spellbook, it would cost half of that. It would take 7 hours to scribe the spell into the book and use up 7 out of 100 pages of a spellbook. Why would a wizard not buy an extra spellbook to contain spells to use as scrolls in this scenario? If you scribe the same spell 6 times in the spellbook, you've equalled the weight of the 6 scrolls you would have and still have 58 pages left.
This does not even take into consideration spells that require material components: those are factored into the prices of scrolls but not into the cost of spellbooks.
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Wizard is using spellbooks as scrolls, and acted like it was how it was supposed to work. He was a player who learned in 2nd edition, so likely not malicious (Since that was a popular 2nd edition homebrew rule).
There were some 1st and 2nd edition guidelines on using your spell book as an emergency scroll. Generally you would not only burn out the spell you cast from your book but several pages before and after that spell in your book.
In no instance of any rules I saw was it infinite free spells or did it let you cast spells out of your book you could not cast normally. In fact it was very much a last resort since you ran a chance of burning out your spellbook pretty drastically.
This sounds like a ton of cheat to me.
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Sorry, but I have a hard time believing that a player using some infinite wishes trick to get himself rich and powerful at the time of character creation is 'simply mistaken' and honestly believing he did his character according to the usual rules.
I agree. Anybody who finds infinite wishes and doesn't think 'this is too good to be true, I must have done something wrong' is either fundamentally dishonest or an idiot. And even if it does work (which this doesn't), anybody who would actually put it to use should be dope-slapped.
Pardon me, this reminds me, I need to make my banned spell list for a game ... wish and miracle are definitely on it.
I think hes well into writing his own rules stage. The op should simply discuss it with the dm and find a replacement. The fact is thought its the DM's fault also most of it can be solved by just reading the rules.
However its all the DM's fault it should go like this
So DM you have 80 thousand gold to strt
Player "So my complex background story that breaks multiple game rules i have 200 thousand gold to start"
Dm No i gave you 80 thousand gold.
I cant imagine why it would go anything different than that under any circumstance. But talk to the DM if he wont deal with it and its making it not fun for you leave.
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I'm gonna pistol whip the next man who says shenanigans
That would cause quite the kerfuffle.
What's the name of that restaurant you like with all the goofy s&#+ on the walls and the mozzarella sticks?
Oh, you mean Shenanigans?
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What's the name of that restaurant you like with all the goofy s&#+ on the walls and the mozzarella sticks?Oh, you mean Shenanigans?
Well done, Farve.
Moving on, I also recall the rule for casting from book, and I also seem to recall it taking some random number of spells before and after casting in such a way. Regardless of DnD rules, Pathfinder is NOT 1st, 2nd, chain mail, 3.0, 3.5, 4.0, or Next.
The OP and GM referenced by OP should sit down with the unfortunate soul they are cursed to be gaming with, and explain the actual rules, AFTER THEY HAVE READ THEM OVER.
How this would work for me
Player: "My parents were a level 20 arch-wizard, and level 20 High Cleric of Arshea. My grandfather, on my father's side fought in the First Mendevian Campaign as a Paladin. When I was a baby, they each spent 1 year casting miracle and wish on me each day, 9 times a day. I was an only child and when they died . . . "
Me (GM): "No."
What's the name of that restaurant you like with all the goofy s&#+ on the walls and the mozzarella sticks?Oh, you mean Shenanigans?Well done, Farve.
Moving on, I also recall the rule for casting from book, and I also seem to recall it taking some random number of spells before and after casting in such a way. Regardless of DnD rules, Pathfinder is NOT 1st, 2nd, chain mail, 3.0, 3.5, 4.0, or Next.
The OP and GM referenced by OP should sit down with the unfortunate soul they are cursed to be gaming with, and explain the actual rules, AFTER THEY HAVE READ THEM OVER.
How this would work for me
Player: "My parents were a level 20 arch-wizard, and level 20 High Cleric of Arshea. My grandfather, on my father's side fought in the First Mendevian Campaign as a Paladin. When I was a baby, they each spent 1 year casting miracle and wish on me each day, 9 times a day. I was an only child and when they died . . . "
Me (GM): "No."
Aww... you cut the player off before they got to how they are also the favorite godson of half of the pantheon that adopted them when their parents died :)
So, current plan is to not allow any more of this.
As a Stop gap measure.
Then allow some measure of "Spellsbooks as scrolls" as an emergency measure, with appropriate costs involved (Either monetary, or through risk).
Thanks all, passed this on to my GM. :)
I posted the RAW text from 1st Ed here in the original thread.
Only viable solution is to create a replacement character with legal stats and WBL. All excess is to be taken away. The suggested 20th level wizard coming back to take his book back can do it with the power of plot.
/cevah
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Honestly, the character is beyond salvageable and it is my firm belief that the player will "misunderstand" rules in his favor over and over again.
Rocks fall you die is not always the worst option.
If i had such a player, and didnt just kick them out, at the very least id say "you can only use core material and you can not be a full or 2/3 caster. In addition i want to review your char sheet before playing. If you can misunderstand so much about the rules you need to play a simpler character."
I'm posting this to both the Rules thread, and the Advice thread.
I talked with the wizard, but have resisted posting anything related to this until now.
Mostly because the degree of miss-communication that occurred hurts my brain, and makes me irritated. As well as slightly ashamed.
First off, the Wizard has been using scrolls, not casting from his Spellbook. When it was pointed out that he has been saying SPELLBOOK all along, he showed us proof. He had made his scrolls into a book, because he liked the idea. He had been referring to it as a Spellbook, because that was what it had been originally.
I advised him to call it a "Scrollbook" from here on out.
So, how did he do the shenanigans at the beginning?
Well, this was definitely confirmed for shenanigans, but he claims it was indeed a mistake. As I said before, he is generally trustworthy, so I believe him, mostly. I think he may have let his desires affect his attentions, and he was more careless than usual.
How did he get so much money? How did he get those magical items? How did he get the OP spellbooks?
Frikking Candle of Invocation, and Craft Wondrous Item. He failed to spot the crafting cost (Somehow), as well as the spell needed (Somehow)... Okay, seriously, I still don't get Pathfinder Spell Mechanics, I've been told that you can roll a DC check for crafting something you don't have the spell for. Seems like crap to me, but I don't know.
Made a candle, used the candle. YAY! WISHS!
Also, hey look, MORE candles!
-_-
So, I've gone back, helped him remath his Int (He's at 27 now, 18+2 racial+6 Item+1 4th Lvl=27).
He is going to need to be more... transparent about what he's casting and when.
Spellbooks cannot be scrolls. Scrollbooks are an interesting item, and something we're looking at. Think of it as a TCG booster pack, or a bulk/variety pack.
His stat is back in line.
Candles of Invocation have been temporarily banned from the Campaign, GM is looking into ways of balancing it, and how he wants to do so.
The items the Wizard has acquired has also garnered him a large number of enemies, those items came from somewhere, and they would like them back, plzkthxs.
The weakest of those enemies can sneeze our entire group to oblivion.
The Wizard is on a subtle "probation", I will be watching everything he casts, so the GM can do his job with the group instead. We've already spotted him casting a spell from a scroll that he shouldn't have had, his entire inventory list has been requested.
In all Honesty, this all stems from a conversation the Wizard and the GM had, where they took two VERY different conclusions away from it. I love this GM, but in all seriousness, he goofed, big time. He should have payed more attention to this guys character creation. he didn't, because that other player, WAS OUR MAIN GM, and was trusted as a result. I'm not blaming the GM, but in the end, the responsibility was his.
I've played so many games at this point, and so far only 5 of them them have made it past the second full session, and only 2 past the fourth (All of these are Pathfinder and DnD, I have experience in a few other systems, as well as better luck there). My own expertise here comes from logically thinking things through, seeing more games fail than most people (aside from people on this forum XD) ever play (I have made so many characters at this point :( ) and as a result, seeing HOW, and WHY things fail. Actual Game mechanics wise, I'm still mostly stuck back in 3.0, and I barely remember any of it. So, I can understand making epic rules mistakes.
Near as I can tell, the Wizard is used to not being as attentive to the rules as he should be, his own Campaign is heavily Homebrewed (No necessarily a bad thing, or a good thing), and from what I've heard, most games he's played have been even MORE homebrewed. As a result, he's used to not referring to the books, or heeding the rules as much as he probably should. He's used to a degree of freedom and free-wheelingness that isn't part of Normal Pathfinder (Or DnD for that matter).
He's been made aware of these issues, and we're moving forward, and it's been okay so far. 3 sessions later, and everything's going fine.
DM is being more attentive, and I'm being me (The same pretty much), the two power gamers are being reined in a bit (The Wizard being less of a power gamer than the Paladin, ("Uh... how'd you get the advanced template? Why do you have CLW at will? Wait, you're HALF-celestial?")).
(No, I'm not saying that that type of behavior (The Paladin) makes you a powergamer. He is a full on min/maxer, and those are just the results of what he has done, not an indicator of what he is)
And thus I learned the perils of Homebrew.
The rules really are guidelines, but they are IMPORTANT guidelines, and should not be changed unless you have a clear and full understanding of what all the change entails.
Aside from that, the story and the game are always more important, but if you know what you're doing, surprisingly little changes are "needed", and you should be able to work through it. Sometimes you can damage the story more with the change, than with the existing rules.
Don't take any of this as criticism of Homebrew, my community uses it extensively, and I've enjoyed those games. The problem is that it's TOO extensive, and we've been having some issues as a result. This is just one of them, and not the worst. A lot of players are starting to get sloppy, thinking that the rules really aren't all that important, and not paying as much attention to them as they should.
We will be working on that now.
What level is your group again? You indicated you only have 1 stat bump at 4th? If your group is sub lvl 8 I woukdnt expect anyone in the group to have even +4 stat items.
All those scrolls cost money and he needs to make checks to use them though if he has the silly 27 int he can't fail the check.
Really your dm just needs to grow a spine and dictate the wizard be at the same wbl as the group.
What level is your group again? You indicated you only have 1 stat bump at 4th? If your group is sub lvl 8 I woukdnt expect anyone in the group to have even +4 stat items.
All those scrolls cost money and he needs to make checks to use them though if he has the silly 27 int he can't fail the check.
Really your dm just needs to grow a spine and dictate the wizard be at the same wbl as the group.
Lvl 6. Only reason why he has access to that degree of resources is that he utilized an infinite wish loophole. That Loophole is unfortunately legit, even if how he started it wasn't.
The GM has told him that this crap will not fly, and that he will need to be extremely transparent about anything/everything he does. He has also banned the loophole.
Problem is pretty much solved, that last post was mostly an update for those who helped us with this. :)
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I'm confused; you say that the Wizard acquired all of this crazy stuff illegitimately, but the GM is basically going "Bad Wizard, don't do that again!", and letting him keep the crazy?
Can I join your table? I promise I won't "accidentally" break more than 2-3 major rules... during character creation anyway..
I'm confused; you say that the Wizard acquired all of this crazy stuff illegitimately, but the GM is basically going "Bad Wizard, don't do that again!", and letting him keep the crazy?
Can I join your table? I promise I won't "accidentally" break more than 2-3 major rules... during character creation anyway..
Hah, yeah, more like, "Don't do it again, also all those items came from somewhere, and none of those previous owners are happy about it."
No one was fully aware of what had happened till a few sessions in, and we found out only bits and pieces of it over time.
We're all college students, with various jobs. We can't always be available, and our communication can be real bad. How our games are run reflects that, it's not uncommon to find out that three sessions later, someone had misspoken something to another character, and our plan is suddenly obsolete and we should have known it.
We generally try to find ways to resolve the issue with the least damage/change done to the narrative/campaign.
In this instance, even the GM wasn't aware of the most outrageous actions till later.
By then, he'd slowly worked in the less outrageous bits and pieces into the story, and decided that having something that looks like a beneficial item, turn into a drawback....
Well, needless to say, the Wizard is in for a rough time. :P
The GM was... iffy about confronting the two experienced players at first, until it became an issue.
He has since resolved to be more assertive.
Mistakes were made, we're at the point where we don't want to dwell on it, and just move on with the game. All of the advantages have been negated fairly effectively, or will be soon (Sometimes things take game in game).
Wizard has:
Really good headband giving him +6 int
A Epic and Mythic level Wizard's spellbooks
Sooooo many scrolls.
The GM has decided to do a few things about each item/items, and I'm not fully privy to everything, I'm a player not the GM. A trusted player, but still, just a player. Even I get to be surprised by some things. :D
Oh, and the Level 23+ Wizard with who knows how many Mythic Levels has taken a interest in us.
Not in a good way.
You guys are lvl 6? Ttkyagb.(time to kiss your asses good bye).
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Im sorry but how is he getting wishes from Candles of Invocation?
I have a vague idea of how that might happen but doing this, especially at level 6. Is literally impossible unless you break like 10 different extremely core rules and ignore half your character sheet.
So the way I'm assuming the wizard is saying it went down is that he first made the candle wit his WBL of 16,000gp. Making a candle cost 14,200gp(10,000 for material cost of the gate spell and 4,200 for the candle itself). Then he says he did the candle without owning the gate spell so he had to make a DC 27 spellcraft check 4 times in a row without fail(which he should be rolling in front of your GM/DM). He says he is doing this with 21 intel so a +5 modifier, +3 from class, and a max of +6 from ranks for a total of +14 on his spellcraft check to make the item. So he rolled 13+ five times in a row. Statistically unlikely but possible. But here is where it def gets wishy-washy.
There are two ways this goes down. The first is He calls forth a being strong enough to cast the highest level of arcana from the gate that he knows personally(at a level6 wizard this is quiet improbable). Then ask that being to cast wish for him free of charge, no string attached. He then proceeds to ask this creature 4+ more times in a row on several occasions to do the same thing.
The second is he calls forth a being he doesnt know personally but is still strong enough to cast the highest level of arcana. He then uses two spell, one which he probably doesnt know and one he defiantly doesnt know, Magic Circle Against XX Alignment(Whatever Alignment the called creature is) and then Dimensional Anchor. Because a creature doesnt exist to my knowledge that knows wish but doesnt know a teleport spell. He then beats the creatures spell resistance of 30+. He currently has a caster level check of +6 meaning he would have to roll a 24 on a 20 sided dice(unlikely). After he accomplished these two feats he must request that the creature grant him a wish. The creature then has to make a DC 19 will save to just ignore him. Since arcane monster at this level average aprox +20 to will saves im going to say he makes that check 95% of the time(only failing on a 1). They continue this cycle each day till one of them fails a check. If your wizard ever fails his check in the apparent 5+ times he did these wishes the creature would most certainly kill him for what he was attempting.
Even after all that you say he wished for more candles? How? Did he get two wishes from these creatures? Even though to my knowledge(though i may be wrong) there isnt a creature that gets the wish spell more then 1/day. I honestly dont think there is a creature that gets it more then 1/week. So how is he getting two wishes on the same visit. Better yet how is he getting 5 wishes in a row all within 6 seconds of each other(the requirement to ad more then a +1 to your ability score via the inherent bonus a wish grants). On top of that these candles require a 9th level spell(Gate), Wish cannot replicate the powers of anything higher then a 8th level spell, much less make a magic item that requires it a 9th level spell 5 times in a row.
After all this impossible candle wishing where is he getting the money to buy these extra magic items? He should only have 1.8k gold left. Unless your GM let him sell these non-existent candles. If so that was a very poor decision.
Ive never played any of the older DnD's but in pathfinder there is nothing like this. Your DM doesnt need to ban the candles because there is nothing wrong with them. A player was simply abusing his inexperience to convince him the item did things it does not do. The only "broken" item in pathfinder that can be abused like that is the Robe of Infinite Twice http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/r-z/robe- of-infinite-twine . Please make sure to ban this item before he finds it and tries to cheese on a different campaign with it.
I know for friendships sake you guys are going to assume he didnt do it on purpose but I would continue to watch him anyways. Cause I have no doubt in my mind he knew he was skewing the rules when he was doing this. Reading the first-second line of any of the rules or spells involved would tell you that you cant.
What level is your group again? You indicated you only have 1 stat bump at 4th? If your group is sub lvl 8 I woukdnt expect anyone in the group to have even +4 stat items.
All those scrolls cost money and he needs to make checks to use them though if he has the silly 27 int he can't fail the check.
Really your dm just needs to grow a spine and dictate the wizard be at the same wbl as the group.
Lvl 6. Only reason why he has access to that degree of resources is that he utilized an infinite wish loophole. That Loophole is unfortunately legit, even if how he started it wasn't.
The GM has told him that this crap will not fly, and that he will need to be extremely transparent about anything/everything he does. He has also banned the loophole.
Problem is pretty much solved, that last post was mostly an update for those who helped us with this. :)
Sigh there is no infinate wish loophole.
The conversation goes like this
Dm Alrighty You all get 10 000 gp to start go make your characers
Wizard :so i used this stuff i have 90k gold
Dm No you have 10 000 gold.
Really thats the end of it. Your Dm isnt doing his Job The wizard isnt even capable of using the candle of inovocation for 2/3 of its abilities and the last one he cant afford.
Im sorry but how is he getting wishes from Candles of Invocation?
I have a vague idea of how that might happen but doing this, especially at level 6. Is literally impossible unless you break like 10 different extremely core rules and ignore half your character sheet.
I assume there is some sort of infinate wish function involving the gate. When i did a googlesearch to look at the candle one of the 'suggesed searches' was a wish loop.
Im sorry but how is he getting wishes from Candles of Invocation?
I have a vague idea of how that might happen but doing this, especially at level 6. Is literally impossible unless you break like 10 different extremely core rules and ignore half your character sheet.
Likewise, I'd like to know how he's managed to convince people that this loophole is a real thing, cause I'm not seeing it.
Likewise, I'd like to know how he's managed to convince people that this loophole is a real thing, cause I'm not seeing it.Im sorry but how is he getting wishes from Candles of Invocation?
I have a vague idea of how that might happen but doing this, especially at level 6. Is literally impossible unless you break like 10 different extremely core rules and ignore half your character sheet.
Edited my post to include what i assume he did. But basically i think he tricked him dm into thinking gate let him force CR 18-20 creatures to grant him their wishes.
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Copy - paste from the other thread.
Frikking Candle of Invocation, and Craft Wondrous Item. He failed to spot the crafting cost (Somehow), as well as the spell needed (Somehow)... Okay, seriously, I still don't get Pathfinder Spell Mechanics, I've been told that you can roll a DC check for crafting something you don't have the spell for. Seems like crap to me, but I don't know.
Made a candle, used the candle. YAY! WISHS!
Also, hey look, MORE candles!
So he is using the craft candle of invocation, gate a genie of his own alignment, ask him to cast a wish trick?
First, making a candle of invocation is a DC 22 spellcraft check. As he hasn't the spell that become a DC 27 check.
Wizard level 6: class skill +3, 6 skills, +10 from int 30 (now reduced to 27 and so +8) = +19. Taking 10 he could make one with his old intelligence, not with his current intelligence or the intelligence he had before using the wishes.
Second: he call a genie with gate. Fine. But the rules say:
Calling Creatures: The second effect of the gate spell is to call an extraplanar creature to your aid (a calling effect). By naming a particular being or kind of being as you cast the spell, you cause the gate to open in the immediate vicinity of the desired creature and pull the subject through, willing or unwilling. Deities and unique beings are under no compulsion to come through the gate, although they may choose to do so of their own accord. This use of the spell creates a gate that remains open just long enough to transport the called creatures. This use of the spell has a material cost of 10,000 gp in rare incense and offerings. This cost is in addition to any cost that must be paid to the called creatures.
If you choose to call a kind of creature instead of a known individual, you may call either a single creature or several creatures. In either case, their total HD cannot exceed twice your caster level. In the case of a single creature, you can control it if its HD does not exceed your caster level. A creature with more HD than your caster level can't be controlled. Deities and unique beings cannot be controlled in any event. An uncontrolled being acts as it pleases, making the calling of such creatures rather dangerous. An uncontrolled being may return to its home plane at any time.
If you choose to exact a longer or more involved form of service from a called creature, you must offer some fair trade in return for that service. The service exacted must be reasonable with respect to the promised favor or reward; see the lesser planar ally spell for appropriate rewards. Some creatures may want their payment in “livestock” rather than in coin, which could involve complications. Immediately upon completion of the service, the being is transported to your vicinity, and you must then and there turn over the promised reward. After this is done, the creature is instantly freed to return to its own plane.
Failure to fulfill the promise to the letter results in your being subjected to service by the creature or by its liege and master, at the very least. At worst, the creature or its kin may attack you.
You control a creature whose HD does not exceed your caster level. I don't know any 6 HD creature that can cast wish.
Now he is in the presence of a uncontrolled genie of his own alignment (I suppose he has made a candle of his alignment).
Hope you are good so that he will only laugh at you and go away, instead of taking you as a slave or killing you.
Assuming he is willing to cooperate, casting wish is a "more involved service", so the genie would ask for appropriate compensation. Appropriate compensation is paying for the wish plus the genie time.
25.000-30.000 gp of stuff or equivalent services.
For a 4th level character that mean indentured service for a few decades for a single wish.
The "more involved service" thing would came in play even if he was capable to call a creature capable to cast wish and with his own caster level or less in HD.
Copy - paste from the other thread.
Frikking Candle of Invocation, and Craft Wondrous Item. He failed to spot the crafting cost (Somehow), as well as the spell needed (Somehow)... Okay, seriously, I still don't get Pathfinder Spell Mechanics, I've been told that you can roll a DC check for crafting something you don't have the spell for. Seems like crap to me, but I don't know.
Made a candle, used the candle. YAY! WISHS!
Also, hey look, MORE candles!
So he is using the craft candle of invocation, gate a genie of his own alignment, ask him to cast a wish trick?
First, making a candle of invocation is a DC 22 spellcraft check. As he hasn't the spell that become a DC 27 check.
Wizard level 6: class skill +3, 6 skills, +10 from int 30 (now reduced to 27 and so +8) = +19. Taking 10 he could make one with his old intelligence, not with his current intelligence or the intelligence he had before using the wishes.
Second: he call a genie with gate. Fine. But the rules say:
...Calling Creatures: The second effect of the gate spell is to call an extraplanar creature to your aid (a calling effect). By naming a particular being or kind of being as you cast the spell, you cause the gate to open in the immediate vicinity of the desired creature and pull the subject through, willing or unwilling. Deities and unique beings are under no compulsion to come through the gate, although they may choose to do so of their own accord. This use of the spell creates a gate that remains open just long enough to transport the called creatures. This use of the spell has a material cost of 10,000 gp in rare incense and offerings. This cost is in addition to any cost that must be paid to the called creatures.
If you choose to call a kind of creature instead of a known individual, you may call either a single creature or several creatures. In either case, their total HD cannot exceed twice your caster level. In the case of a single creature,
Oh Woops i missed genies xD Although I thought for sure there was a restriction on their wishes but looking over it I must be remembering something else :p
Also he has 21 intel. 18 from normal stat +2 from racial and +1 from level 4 increase. The rest of his supposed intel is coming from items, which he doesnt have the money for until after he makes the wishes and the candles. So he wouldnt have that bonus intel making the checks.
What level is your group again? You indicated you only have 1 stat bump at 4th? If your group is sub lvl 8 I woukdnt expect anyone in the group to have even +4 stat items.
All those scrolls cost money and he needs to make checks to use them though if he has the silly 27 int he can't fail the check.
Really your dm just needs to grow a spine and dictate the wizard be at the same wbl as the group.
Scrolls require you to use Use Magic Device, which is a Charisma based check and also not a class skill for Wizards. Every Wizard Ive ever met dumped charisma even before strength so im assuming he isnt making those checks easily. But you only have to make the checks if the scroll isnt on your class spell list.
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Has anyone just thought of scrapping the PC and just starting again without houserules/cheatsmodeon?
Yeah!
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Has anyone just thought of scrapping the PC and just starting again without houserules/cheatsmodeon?
The problem is that it sounds like it took them number of sessions to fully realize what was going on, and in that period the PC in question was deeply integrated into the story. If they simply amputate the character there will be a gaping, obvious hole in the plot.
Rocks fall, he dies
Has anyone just thought of scrapping the PC and just starting again without houserules/cheatsmodeon?The problem is that it sounds like it took them number of sessions to fully realize what was going on, and in that period the PC in question was deeply integrated into the story. If they simply amputate the character there will be a gaping, obvious hole in the plot.
Retcon time.
Rewind everything to back before this clothead started his nonsense, take it from there.
Has anyone just thought of scrapping the PC and just starting again without houserules/cheatsmodeon?The problem is that it sounds like it took them number of sessions to fully realize what was going on, and in that period the PC in question was deeply integrated into the story. If they simply amputate the character there will be a gaping, obvious hole in the plot.
This, exactly.
Like I said, that additional post was an update and a thanks for the help given before, everything is resolved and fixed. :)
Wish I could add "RESOLVED" to the post title. XD
Your wizard is pulling a Pun-Pun character.
Pun-Pun is the god of munchkinry. The ultimate example of "breaking the system" in 3.5, Pun-Pun is an ECL 6 kobold character build that can cast every spell and psionic power at will, has infinite stats (and therefore infinite HP), and has a divine rank of 30. While the original version of Pun-Pun was a 12th level psion, the most recent shattering of the system uses only standard divine/arcane magic and setting-specific splatbook feats.
There are several ways to pull this trick, but "Pun Pun" is the name applied to them all. See how he reacts to that name. If he knows it, then he blatantly cheated. The Candle of Invocation is seriously involved in all of them.
Check out Pun-Pun (3.5e Optimized Character Build). It has a FAQ about Pun Pun.
/cevah