Class Comparisons


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

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Over the last week or so there have been a slew of posts about what particular classes can or cannot achieve. Hundreds of posts have been spent debating the issue but little hard factual evidence has actually been provided. So I thought I would use this thread as a bit of a testing ground to look at just how well different classes might be able to contribute to different types of encounters.

I am looking at characters at level 10. By this point people should have hit their stride and be able to contribute to a wide range of different situations. You have more than sufficient levels to play with. In order to maintain parity I will be working with the following creation guidelines:

1. Standard 20 point buy
2. Standard WBL for level 10, 62000gp
3. PFS rules, so no crafting and a maximum of 1 permanent combat pet

Otherwise everything is open so feel free to knock yourselves out. I will be setting the encounters at around CR12 (19200xp). It isn't expected that you will necessarily be able to solo them but I am looking to see how you contribute to success in a 4 man party.

Quote:

Encounter 1: Raiding Giants

An angry fire giant (CR10, 9600xp ) has come down out of the mountains raiding the low landers. He has burned out several farms and is currently squatting in the remains of a watch tower a few miles from your home town. He has brought a pair of pet hellhounds with him (CR3, 800xp each) as well as a raiding party of four cave trolls (CR4, 1200xp each) who fear his command over fire. Since arriving in the area he has been charmed by a succubus (CR7, 3200xp), freed when the wizard who bound her was killed in battle. She sees the Giant as a convenient way to cause destruction in the region. She poses as a prisoner if adventurers come calling until the time is right to strike.

Quote:

Encounter 2: The Darkness Below

Not far from town sits an ancient necropolis. Locals avoid it, believing it is haunted and occasionally undead emerge from within to cause trouble. Things have become worse recently, numerous outlying homes have been smashed in and their inhabitants dragged off. People are getting desperate and need capable adventurers to go in there and deal with the threat.

Unknown to the townsfolk the area has become the home of a demonic Mohrg (CR12, 19200xp). It has been kidnapping locals and using its create spawn ability to raise zombies. It is lairing in a maze of pitch black narrow tunnels beneath the necropolis. It has dozens of basic humanoid fast zombies as well as half a dozen fast ogre zombies. As it can create these itself I have not counted them against its CR. Similarly it doesn't hesitate to use its SMIX to conjure up a Glabrezu if it feels threatened.

Quote:

Encounter 3: The Hellmouth

The powers of Hell have struck at a small isolated monastery on a rock several miles out to sea. Some claim the monastery holds a prophecy foretelling the fall of an arch devil but who knows. What you do know is that devils can now often be seen flying above the monastery.

An Erinyes (CR8, 4800xp) and 3 bearded devils (CR5, 1600xp each) now patrol the area around the monastery while their master, Godric (Cleric 11 of Asmodeus) (CR10, 9600xp) interrogates the monks within. He has animated 4 Hill Giants as skeletons to serve as his bodyguards.

Godric:
Human Cleric (Separatist) of Asmodeus 11
LE Medium humanoid (human)
Init +7; Senses Perception +20

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Defense
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AC 27, touch 11, flat-footed 26 (+12 armor, +4 shield, +1 Dex)
hp 91 (11d8+33)
Fort +13, Ref +7, Will +16

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Offense
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Speed 20 ft.
Melee masterwork morningstar +10/+5 (1d8+1)
Special Attacks channel negative energy 2/day (DC 14, 6d6)

Domain Spell-Like Abilities (CL 11th; concentration +17)
11 rounds/day—master's illusion (11 rounds/day, DC 21)
9 rounds/day—charming smile (9 rounds/day, DC 20)
9/day—copycat (11 rounds), dazing touch

Cleric (Separatist) Spells Prepared (CL 11th; concentration +17):

6th—antilife shell, mislead [D], summon monster vi
5th—greater command (DC 21), persistent suggestion [D] (DC 19), summon monster v (2)
4th—air walk, blessing of fervor (DC 20), confusion [D] (DC 20), freedom of movement, summon monster iv
3rd—dispel magic, magic vestment (2), nondetection [D], persistent murderous command (2) DC 17)
2nd—grace (2), hold person (2) DC 18), invisibility [D], resist energy, surmount affliction
1st—disguise self [D], murderous command (2) DC 17), obscuring mist, protection from good, shield of faith (2)
0 (at will)—create water, detect magic, guidance, stabilize
[D] Domain spell; Domains Charm, Trickery

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Statistics
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Str 12, Dex 12, Con 16, Int 12, Wis 22, Cha 8
Base Atk +8; CMB +9; CMD 20

Feats: Armor Proficiency (Heavy), Augment Summoning, Improved Initiative, Persistent Spell, Sacred Summons, Spell Focus (conjuration), Superior Summoning

Traits: reactionary, underbridge dweller (magnimar)

Skills: Diplomacy +3, Intimidate +10, Knowledge (arcana) +5, Knowledge (history) +5, Knowledge (nobility) +5, Knowledge (planes) +10, Knowledge (religion) +10, Perception +20, Sense Motive +20, Spellcraft +10
Languages Common, Infernal

Special Qualities: aura, domains (trickery), forbidden rites (charm), variant channeling (rulership)

Gear: masterwork full plate, masterwork buckler, masterwork morningstar, belt of mighty constitution +2, cloak of resistance +3, headband of inspired wisdom +2, iron holy symbol (Asmodeus), iron holy symbol (Asmoeus) (x3), spell component pouch (x3), 164 gp

Quote:

Encounter 4: The Diamond Ball

The Queen is hosting a fabulous party and inviting all of the very best people, including you lot. Unknown to most (except you) the Queen is herself a potent spellcaster. Those in the know believe that she secretly rules from behind the scenes. You need to find evidence of her duplicitousness which is hidden somewhere in her quarters. Naturally they will be guarded by wards and likely traps.

There are three parts to your challenge. Avoid the notice of her Palace Guard, defeat the wards, guardians and traps around her chambers without alerting her and escape the Palace with your prize unnoticed.

There are of course complications. The entire Palace is dimensionally locked for the duration of the party to ensure everyone's safety. The Queen, being a potent spellcaster in her own right, has Planar Bound guardians to protect her privacy and any suggestion of thieves in her chambers will bring her directly there. You cannot defeat her in open combat.

Escaping the party requires evading the notice of her eagle eyed guards who are alert to possible mischief. They are on high alert. Mostly they are level 5 Warriors with +13 Perception (5 ranks +4 class skill and trait bonus +3 skill focus +1 wisdom) however there are two Avoral Agathions in the room cloaked with a Veil spell. They have +23 perception and possess both true seeing and see invisibility.

Her chambers are of course locked with the best locks which money can buy (DC30). Furthermore they are Arcane Locked increasing the DC to 40. Breaking down the door is highly likely to alert people to something being up. Furthermore the door is magically trapped and affects anyone trying to bypass the lock with Baleful Polymorph (Spot DC30, Disable DC30, Spell DC20).

Her chambers are protected by a Stone Golem with orders to attack anyone entering her chambers who is not a member of the Royal Family, one of a very small number of trusted servants or in the company of a member of the Family.

The information required is secreted behind a hidden panel (DC35 to spot). It is similarly trapped as the entrance door and the Golem will move to attack anyone opening the door who is not the Queen. If the door opens but it cannot see anyone it has orders to raise the alarm by striking a large gong in the room. The gong is enchanted to ensure that its ring can be heard throughout the palace. The Queen will arrive three rounds after the gong is struck (she cannot teleport either).

Quote:

Encounter 5: The Dragon

A local mountain, long thought dormant, has recently burst back into fiery life. Incendius, a mature adult Magma Dragon (CR13) has reignited the ancient volcano and is now demanding that local communities pay him tribute. He is powerful, arrogant and dangerous although susceptible to flattery. His attitude to visitors starts at unfriendly.

He makes his home in the heart of the volcanos crater high in the mountains (altitude sickness will be an issue). The crater is permanently filled with thick choking smoke and rivulets of magma which he bathes in. It is also home to several dozen medium fire elementals which have been drawn here through a small gate to the elemental plane of fire which lies at the heart of the volcano. At CR3 I am simply ignoring them given we are looking at level 10 characters although they may well intervene if Incendius is attacked.


I call shenanigans on encounter #4.

If the palace is not comically undersized it will not be possible for the queen to reach her quarters from the ballroom where she's hosting in 3 rounds without teleporting. The royal apartments shouldn't even be on the same floor as the public areas a party would be hosted in unless they were in another wing of the palace.


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Heyo. I'm going to break rules slightly by using Synthesist (not PFS legal). Return of Limburger, Half-Elf Paladin of Vengeance/Synthesist.

Build: Pal(2)/Synth(8)

7/7/7/14/16/18+2(+2 levels)

Trait: Anything that gives diplomacy as a class skill along with +1.
Trait: Anything that gives Perception as a class skill along with +1.

Skills: Stealth, Perception, UMD, Knowledge: Planes

Feats: Improved Initiative, Skill Focus: Diplomacy, Extra Evolution(x2),Power Attack, Improved Arcane Heritage

Eidolon Evolution Pool (11+2+2=15): Head(x2)(4), Bite(x2)(2) + Improved Natural Armor(x2)(2), Pounce(1), Large(4), Improved Dex (2)

Relevant Combat Stats Before Equipment And Abilities(Eidolon ability score to str):
26/15/17/14/16/22
BAB: +8
Base Saves: 2/2/6 + 3/0/3 = 5/2/9

Gear: +1 Amulet of Mighty Fists (1k), +4 Cloak of Charisma (16k), +1 Belt of Giant's Strength (16k), +3 Cloak of Resistance (9k), +2 amulet of natural armor (4k), +2 Ring of Protection (4k), Boots of Speed (12k), rod of silence (lesser) (3k), golembane scaraab (2.5k) = 57.5k, 2 scrolls of level 8 acute senses (400 or 800 each). Spend the rest on wands of cure light wounds

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Relevant Stats After Abilities And Gear:
30/15/17/14/16/26
Attack Bonus: 8+10(str)+1(Amulet)-1(Large)+1(10 rounds of haste, gonna use 'em) -3 (Power attack)= +16/+16/+16/+16 (Haste!)
Damage: d8 + 15 (str) + 9(Power attack) + 1 (Amulet)
Saves: 5/2/9 + 3/2/3 (Stats) + 3/3/3 (Cloak) + 8/8/8 (Paladin) + 2/2/2(Shielded Meld) = 5/2/9 + 16/15/16 = 21/17/25
AC (Mage Armor always cast): 10 + 4 (Armor) + 12 (Natural Armor) + 2 (Deflection) + 1 (Haste) + 2 (Dexterity) - 1(Large) +2 (Shielded Meld)= 30

Initiative: +10
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Spells:
1: Mage Armor
2: Resist Energy, Invisibility, Silence
3: Dimensional Anchor, Stoneskin, Greater Invisibility
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Okay, let's fight stuff.
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Encounter #1: Due to a complete lack of tact, Limburger ends up fighting 4 hell hounds, 4 cave trolls, a fire giant, and a succubus. Since he knows he's fighting a fire giant, he will have cast Resist Energy (Fire) On himself first.

Let's establish one thing: The succubus, cave trolls, and hell hounds cannot actually do damage. We only fail their saves on natural 1s, they only hit on natural 20s. This combat isn't going to last long enough for them to do much that's relevant. The only question is how much damage I take before exploding the hill giant and then mopping up everybody else.

On a full attack vs. AC 24, my expected damage (ignoring crits for laziness) is 4*(.65*29.5) = 76.25. Kills the hill giant in 2 rounds. I almost certainly go first (+10 initiative), so hill giant gets in 1 round of attacks. Ow!

Against AC 30, it does: 22.05ish points of damage (full attack is better against me than its 2 slams). I am suitably sad, kill it, and butcher everything else casually without haste.

If the succubus gets salty, I can dimensional anchor her before butchering things. So she can't teleport away.

Can heal back the damage with lay on hands or some good old fashioned cure light wounds wands.

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We don't really care about zombies, because we can kill pretty infinite numbers of them just as soon as we've dealt with the mohrg. We pretty much need to prevent him from summoning the Glabrezu, because that sucker is going to power word: stun us and that's going to be unpleasant.

There are probably a number of ways around this, but the easiest one is this: Somehow figure out where in the damn dungeon the thing is. Wait 'til it's in a not-huge-room (one I can affect with silence). I have 10k, and 11 castings of Summon Monster 4. I can probably do this.

So we cast invisibility and silence on ourselves. Use Maker's Jump (supernatural, not affected by silence) to dimension door to the morg. Beat it on initiative while blocking the door, and slug it out. I do 65 damage to it a round, killing it in 3 rounds. Odds are okay that it gets 2 rounds off of full attacking or futilely trying to cast spells. Let's have it full attack. Not failing that fort save except on a natural 1, so it does about 28 points of damage per round (...about 8 through stoneskin) for 2 rounds.

No worries. Kill him, run around cheerily murdering zombies, declare victory. Heal up with a wand or with lay on hands, we probably didn't take too much damage.

Note that we could also smite this dude, killing him in 2 rounds. Nothing later on requires our smite-age.

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Encounter #3:

Erinyes + Devil can't hit, and cant make Limburger fail saves. The Hill giants, as a group, are going to about 5-9 points of damage a round through stoneskin. The cleric is dead in 2 rounds, taking 50 damage a round. He can't make Limburger fail saves, and he can't get away.

It takes Limburger some time to clean up everything, but there's no real threat here.

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Encounter #4:
I talk to everybody at the party. My diplomacy check is at +28. I determine everybody who is a guard by auto-succeeding at dem will saves. I will talk random people into Distracting the guards, lowering their perception by 5. at a +18, using a rod of silence to cast invis, I can sneak past more or less guaranteed (20+10+3+1). With an attitude of Helpful, I can probably convince them to let me out too.

Being a master of subtlety, I cast silence on myself after making sure I am not invisible. I batter the door down silently (30 strength) and succeed at my saving throw against the polymorph. The golem and I cheerily bludgeon eachother for 2 rounds (hint: I win casually).

Use the scroll of acute senses (drop silence). My perception check is now 10 (levels) + 2 (wisdom) + 20 = 32. I find it, leave the party. Maybe I smash my way through a wall or something.

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Encounter #5:
...we don't suuuper believe in diplomacy if we can avoid it through wanton violence. We fight it!

We don't power attack, so we do 32 points of damage a round (....stuuupid high AC.) Sadly, we can't smite this thing. Nonetheless, it's going to die in ...6 rounds? 7? Let's see how much damage it does to us.

We have about 105 hit points, plus 80 from Stoneskin that sure as hell are going to be used. Nonetheless, it currently does like 55 points of damage to us a round, so it's going to kill us in 4 rounds. What? we're losing? Nooo, we're going to have to use spells. Or worse, DIPLOMACY. Gross.

We're not suuuper far off from brawling this down, but I'm not sure what money or spells I'd spend to make it easy to do. The fact that it's not evil sorta hurts us.

To beat this, we're just going to rely on our stupid, stupid charisma. Our diplomacy is 10(ranks) + 1(trait) + 6(Skill Focus) + 8(charisma) + 3 (class skill) = +28.

Damnit. Stupid diplomacy. WHEN WAR FAILS...

Our average roll is a 38, which makes the DC of 23 and turns him from Unfriendly to Friendly. We agree that the locals will give him sheep and in return, he'll protect them from raiders, wolves, and Demonic Morghs.

It should be noted that if this jackass had the common decency to be evil, we could probably smite him and win.

-Cross (Caveat: OBVIOUSLY I HANDWAVE AWAY A BUNCH OF THINGS, among them crit chance because I'm lazy. But I think this is pretty reasonable.


I'm pretty sure this is why Syntheist Summoners are banned, lol.

I think you went into those encounters solo, correct? With a party, heck, even just a cleric to heal you, the encounters would have gone even smoother.


Crosswind wrote:
*snip

Very impressive. However, Cloaks of Charisma and Cloaks of Resistance occupy the same slot, so they don't stack. Also since no crafting is available, you can't change the it into, for example, a ring of resistance or something. That's really only a minor quibble though. I doubt getting rid of one of those items would change any of the encounters significantly. Really, the only encounter that poses a true challenge to the synthesist summoner is the magma dragon.

EDIT: Oh, you might also have trouble with the Avoral Agathions in Encounter 4. They have true seeing and see invisibility with a +23 Perception, so you'll definitely be spotted and the alarm will be rung. Things could get pretty tricky from there.

EDIT 2: I'll try my hand at this next with a druid. I doubt she'll have as much success as the summoner though. I'm also wondering now about how a martial character would fare against these encounters given the lack of access to spells.


devilbunny wrote:
Crosswind wrote:
*snip

Very impressive. However, Cloaks of Charisma and Cloaks of Resistance occupy the same slot, so they don't stack. Also since no crafting is available, you can't change the it into, for example, a ring of resistance or something. That's really only a minor quibble though. I doubt getting rid of one of those items would change any of the encounters significantly. Really, the only encounter that poses a true challenge to the synthesist summoner is the magma dragon.

EDIT: Oh, you might also have trouble with the Avoral Agathions in Encounter 4. They have true seeing and see invisibility with a +23 Perception, so you'll definitely be spotted and the alarm will be rung. Things could get pretty tricky from there.

EDIT 2: I'll try my hand at this next with a druid. I doubt she'll have as much success as the summoner though. I'm also wondering now about how a martial character would fare against these encounters given the lack of access to spells.

Hey, sorry, Cloaks of Charisma don't actually exist in pathfinder. It's circlets of charisma. I played a lot of 3.5.

Re: Avoral Agathons. You're basically only going to reliably beat that with either diplomatic stuff or a hyper-optimized stealth character. It's a little tough to argue that diplomatic stuff ("I REALLY NEED TO GO TO THE BATHROOM") would help over a message board. Basically, if you can do it via anything other than straight stealth, this character can probably do it.

Also, I got like 0 use out of my 11 casts of Summon Monster 4. Because I, Crosswind, am a trashy player of casters and don't know what monsters are useful for what.

(Also, I can't Maker's Jump while silenced. I'd have to have dimension door memorized and use it with the rod of silence for the Morgh encounter)

Edit: I could trade my familiar for Still Spell, drop a stilled, silenced Obscuring Mist, and just leave. People would know there was a mist, but it might take some time to identify me as the person who wasn't there any more. I'll have the thing stolen inside of about 2 minutes because I'm just smashing doors and golems after that.

Seems a bit of a waste to blow a feat for still spell tho' =D

-Cross (I am 100% certain that a wizard could crush these encounters with scry + die at 10th level, by the way. But it's more interesting/tougher to smash your way through 'em)


Haha, whoops my bad. I totally derped out on the Cloak of Charisma thing, and my mind instantly reverted to back to 3.5 for some reason. As for wizards crushing these encounters, I also agree with you on that. But, like you said, smashing is sooooooooooo much more entertaining.


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I think at the end of the day player skill and group paradgm ate the thing that sets ballance.

I will say however some classes have more room for poor decision making than others. But you can finish every ap with a middling power character of any class. The boards give a sense of conflict that may exist for some groups I personally never see it in acrual play.


Hi Crosswind, thanks very much for contributing. I do have a few questions, I doubt they change the outcome much but they may be relevant.

Quote:
Feats: Improved Initiative, Skill Focus: Diplomacy, Extra Evolution(x2),Power Attack, Improved Arcane Heritage

Is Improved Arcane Heritage supposed to be Improved Eldritch Heritage (Arcane)? If so you don't qualify for it as you do not have Eldritch Heritage. If it is supposed to be Eldritch Heritage (Arcane) then you also don't qualify for that as you require Skill Focus (Any Knowledge).

Quote:
Gear: +1 Amulet of Mighty Fists (1k), +4 Cloak of Charisma (16k), +1 Belt of Giant's Strength (16k), +3 Cloak of Resistance (9k), +2 amulet of natural armor (4k), +2 Ring of Protection (4k), Boots of Speed (12k), rod of silence (lesser) (3k), golembane scaraab (2.5k) = 57.5k, 2 scrolls of level 8 acute senses (400 or 800 each). Spend the rest on wands of cure light wounds

The ring and amulet are both 8k and even using the original values I get 67.5k before wands/scrolls so you are a fair bit over WBL for level 10.

Quote:

Encounter #1: Due to a complete lack of tact, Limburger ends up fighting 4 hell hounds, 4 cave trolls, a fire giant, and a succubus. Since he knows he's fighting a fire giant, he will have cast Resist Energy (Fire) On himself first.[//quote]

While the succubus cannot hit you she has no incentive to get into melee. I would expect her to be spamming at will Charm Monster while flying out of the way. As set up you have no means to fly to engage her. It isn't hard to overcome but it is a minor issue. The cave trolls present little threat although you have no way to overcome their regeneration. I assume you would be carrying around some alchemist fire or something though.

Quote:
Erinyes + Devil can't hit, and cant make Limburger fail saves. The Hill giants, as a group, are going to about 5-9 points of damage a round through stoneskin. The cleric is dead in 2 rounds, taking 50 damage a round. He can't make Limburger fail saves, and he can't get away.

While it cannot hit you its true seeing means it sees you coming so I suppose its boss might be buffed by the time you arrive. Not really likely to change much.


Err, maybe I suck at adding. Drop both defensive items to +1. I cast barkskin on myself constantly, giving me +3 natural armor, so my AC is identical.

Total cost: 16+16+2+12+2+2.5+3k+.8 = 54.3

Also, I screwed up on the skill focus thing. Go ahead and make it skill focus: arcane. I still have the diplomacy (and change) to move the dragon's attitude up two. Or keep it at diplomacy and replace improved eldritch heritage (arcane) with...anything. I lose initiative to one or two things, but not the end of the world, as none of the physical fights are close given stoneskin.

-Cross


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Okay, my turn to have a shot with this *cracks knuckles*
The only PFS rule that she breaks is that her alignment is evil, so she could pick up the Shadow Druid feat.

Spoiler:
Serena Wyreth, female human druid 9 (menhir savant)/barbarian 1; NE Medium humanoid (human)
Traits: Indomitable Faith (+1 to Will), Strong Willed (+2 against charms and compulsions)
Initiative: +1; Senses: none; Perception +18

Defense:
AC: 11, touch 11, flat-footed 10 (+1 Dex)
HP: 92 (1d12+9d8+40); Fort +13, Ref +6, Will +16; +2 against charms and compulsions, +4 against spell-like and supernatural abilities of the fey
Defensive Abilities: resist nature’s lure, resist electricity 10; Immune: poison

Offense:
Speed: 40 ft. (8 squares)
Special Attacks: walk the lines 5/day, place magic 8/day, wild shape 3/day, rage
Druid Spell-Like Abilities (CL 9th, concentration +15): At will- spirit sense; lightning arc 8/day
Druid Spells Prepared (CL 9th; concentration +15; 4/7/6/5/4/3)

Statistics
Str 22, Dex 12, Con 16, Int 10, Wis 20, Cha 7
Base Atk +7; CMB +13; CMD 24
Feats: Vital Strike, Furious Finish, Natural Spell, Shadow Druid, Iron Will, Improved Iron Will
Skills: Climb +19, Fly +14, Knowledge (nature) +13, Stealth +11; Languages: Common, Druidic
SQ: nature bond (Air Domain), venom immunity, fast movement, electricity resistance
Equipment: headband of inspired wisdom +2 (4k), belt of physical might +4 (40k), amulet of mighty fists +1 (4k), cloak of resistance +2 (4k), 2 wands of cure light wounds, potion of acute senses, around 8k left


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Encounter #1: Serena will have the area scouted out ahead of time with spells like call animal, charm animal, commune with birds, and speak with animals. Once she knows what she's up against, she casts barkskin, which givers her +4 AC, air walk from her bonus domain spell, and protection from energy against fire. She then proceeds to wild shape into a thrush and casts invisibility which is granted to her via the Shadow Druid feat. Serena then flits through the air casting Spirit Sense to make sure there isn't anything she's unprepared for, and surprise! She finds a disguised succubus (yes, I may be metagaming this a bit, but it's fair to say that someone cautious would use it whenever there's danger)! With +11 base Stealth, +12 from now diminutive size, +3 from increase to Dexterity from wild shape, and +20 from invisibility, I guarantee she won't be spotted (for those who are too lazy to add that's a +46 Stealth).

Next, she proceeds to fly down, right next to the succubus while casting displacement and strong jaw on herself while still in the air. On the subsequent turn, she continues following the succubus as a thrush before wild shaping into a behemoth hippo. Her Stealth is now +11, -10 from being a hippo, and +40 from invisibility while not moving. She then breaks invisibility during the surprise round, rages, and uses Vital Strike. Her attack modifier as a behemoth hippo is +7 BAB, +11 from strength of 32 because of rage and wild shape into a Huge creature, -2 from Huge, and +1 from the amulet of mighty fists for a total of +17. The succubus is also flat-footed giving her an AC of 17 and Serena gains another +2 from to attack from invisibility. Auto-hit if Serena doesn't roll a 1.

Damage dealt is on average 72 from 16d8 bite attack from strong jaw and Vital Strike,+16 from strength, and a +1 from amulet for a total of 89 points of damage. With a DR of 10 from the succubus, that drops her hp down to 4. Serena's bite attack also gives her a free grab with a +20 from CMB (+13 base, +5 from being a Huge creature and the bonus strength, and a +2 from strength increase due to rage) against the succubus's CMD 22. Basically the succubus is grappled, and has close tono chance to break free from Serena's CMD of 29. While the fire giant and its minions start streaking over, maybe even getting a couple attacks off if they're close enough (missing half the time from displacement), Serena breaks the succubus in half with another successful grapple check and then flies into the air from her earlier cast air walk (yes, flying behemoth hippos).

The fire giant may be able to hit her again, but she has 112 hp from rage and hasn't taken too much damage so far. She continues air walking up until she's right above the fire giant and then uses her 15 ft. reach to attack with a Vital Strike and Furious Finish. Serena has a 70% chance to hit an AC 24. Assuming she does, that's 146 points of damage. Bye-bye fire giant. The rest of the minions are mopped up as she shifts into a thrush again and summons a large air elemental. The poor hell hounds and cave trolls still haven't evolved to use a ranged attack. While the elemental uses whirlwind, Serena casts call lightning storm with each bolt dealing 5d10 or 27 points of damage on average, 13 with a successful Reflex DC 20 (normally it's 3d10, but whirlwind simulates stormy conditions).

Conclusion: She basically had to blast through and go full nova, but it was enough to take care of the succubus, fire giant, and minions.
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Encounter #2: To traverse the dark tunnels of the necropolis, Serena will take the form of a bat and easily reach the demonic mohrg (locating it with Spirit Sense) without fighting any of the zombies due to her +26 Stealth (this time without invisibility). Plus bats don't exactly look threatening to zombies even if she is spotted while breaking cover.

Okay, time for the fight. (UN)HOLY CRAP!!! HOW IN THE WORLD CAN A CR 12 DEMONIC MOHRG SUMMON A CR 13 GLABREZU?! Now, that's just unfair! And Serena doesn't even have the option of silence like Limburger...Okay, deep breath. Serena, still in bat form, casts strong jaw, displacement, invisibility, and echolocation before actually entering the area with the mohrg. The mohrg has a +22 Perception, but that's not good enough against the stealth of the invisible bat flies straight up to it. Serena then shifts into a behemoth hippo, and her Stealth is now +40 from not moving while invisible, +11 base stealth, -8 from Huge, and, -2 from Dex loss when changing into a Huge creature for a total of +41 Stealth. Then she breaks invisibility for her Vital Strike attack during the surprise round which is +19 while raging and invisible against a flat-footed AC 19.

It hits, and she deals an average of 90 damage, reducing the mohrg from 171 to 81. The mohrg has a higher initiative, and is likely to react first during the first round of combat. However, most of it's spells are useless against another evil creature and summoning the glabrezu requires a round in which case Serena will use Vital Strike and Furious Finish to deal 146 points of damage and kill it. The only option left is to attack and pray it hits with a paralyzing tongue. However, Serena has displacement active making it only 50% chance that the attack will hit. If it does hit, she has 55% chance of saving against the paralysis and then proceeding to kill the mohrg the next turn because of her +15 Fortitude. The possession ability that kicks in when the mohrg is dead is a DC 23 Will against Serena's +16. 70% chance that Serena saves successfully.

Conclusion: Much harder than the first encounter and required a lot more thought despite wasting less resources. Mainly it was trying to avoid the glabrezu from being summoned.
---
Encounter #3: Air walk, displacement, shift into behemoth hippo, and cast strong jaw. Then move straight at the patrolling erinyes and bite it with Vital Strike and Furious Finish while raging. Stupid true-seeing makes it hard to sneak around. Maybe get hit twice or three times, dropping Serena down to around 70ish hp, if the devils react first. Once the erinyes is dead, finish off the rest of the bearded devils and move on after healing with a wand of cure light wounds.

Change into a thrush and cast both invisibility and strong jaw before dropping in on the cleric. Silently flit her way through the shadows with a +46 Stealth against the +20 Perception of the infernal priest. Not gunna cut it, pal. Change into behemoth hippo. Surprise round is Serena using Vital Strike and Furious Finish to kill off the cleric while raging, with a +19 attack against AC 26 for being flat-footed. The rest of the zombies are one-shotted with an average of 87 points of damage being dealt a turn even without rage.

Conclusion: Pretty simple and easy overall. Erinyes gave the most trouble, and even then it was only because of true-seeing.
---
Encounter #4: Inspired by Crosswind's idea of the obscuring mist, Serena casts fog cloud in the middle of the party before shifting into a bat. While the party guests are confused and distracted, the Avoral Agathions and guards will not be able to spot the spellcaster because of the fog which limits their vision to 5 ft. Serena then navigates her way via blindsense to the queen's chambers. Then shifts into a behemoth hippo, casts strong jaw, and slams the door down, triggering the trap. Her +15 Fortitude gives her only a 20% chance of failing the save against the baleful polymorph. She then turns invisible before attacking the stone golem, one-hitting it with Furious Finish and Vital Strike while raging. Consuming the potion of acute senses, her Perception is now +38. Easily finds the hidden panel and triggers another trap with a 20% chance of failing it once again. Retrieves info, smashes a window, and change into a thrush. Flies out and uses walk the lines to help escape as soon as it isn't dimension locked anymore.

Conclusion: Hmmm, not exactly subtle, but it worked.
---
Encounter #5: Ahh, this is a freaking mature adult magma dragon. No way in hell Serena will kill this thing. AC is too high, SR is too high, saves are too high, it's got dispel magic, and on top of that it's 4 AM in the morning now.


My only real issue with the whole Obscuring Mist thing is that it is centered on you. If it follows you as you move then it is fairly obvious where you are (although I am not entirely sure it does).


andreww wrote:
My only real issue with the whole Obscuring Mist thing is that it is centered on you. If it follows you as you move then it is fairly obvious where you are (although I am not entirely sure it does).

Fog cloud doesn't. It spreads from a point you designate.


Also obscuring mist doesn't move either, even if it spreads out from you.

Serena is a _terrific_ example of the flexibility of a druid. Doesn't do anything super crazy or cheesy (her build would be allowed at 99% of tables - mine would get me kicked in the balls by a DM). Transitioning from tiny bird to GIANT MURDER HIPPO is great. The furious finish thing is adorable - I wish there was some way to get rage without blowing an otherwise wasted level in Barbarian.

-Cross


Also, good job noting that summoning the Glabrezu is a full-rounder. If Limburger smites, the Mohrg doesn't live to get that off, so my silence nonsense may not be required.

(Suggest that Selena get some sort of silence for when she smashes down the door, as "Breaking down the door is highly likely to alert people to something being up.)

-Cross


Crosswind wrote:
Also, good job noting that summoning the Glabrezu is a full-rounder. If Limburger smites, the Mohrg doesn't live to get that off, so my silence nonsense may not be required.

This is a disputed issue here on the boards. I tend to agree that it is one round cast time but there are plenty who don't.

Quote:

(Suggest that Selena get some sort of silence for when she smashes down the door, as "Breaking down the door is highly likely to alert people to something being up.)

-Cross

She has plenty of wild shapes, an earth elemental would simply glide through the wall. In fact, given you might reasonably presume that any important stuff is in a hidden room you could scout out the area by earth gliding through the floors and walls without ever entering the apartment itself.


Yeah, the barbarian level isn't exactly desirable, but it's really the only way to get rage. Although, the bonus to movement speed is also very nice since I can't charge and Vital Strike. As for breaking down the door, andreww's idea is probably the best way to go about it although I didn't think of it at the time. I was debating purchasing a chime of resounding silence for Serena, but that was 10k and she would have to ditch the wands and the potion of acute senses. Her biggest weakness is her extremely low AC and how easy she is to hit although as you can see I tried to mitigate that with displacement, tankiness, and ungodly stealth to get the drop on her enemies before they can react.

EDIT: Shadow Druid made this build complete by making her quite versatile. Being able to cast invisibility and displacement as a druid is a godsend.


These encounters would be so hard to accomplish with a fighter or rogue. You'd have to invest a lot into magical consumables and pick up Use Magic Device. Even then, it seems dubious that they could blow through most of these encounters.


I am honestly not looking too see if they can blow past them or solo them. I am looking to see how they contribute as part of a team, one probably rather less optimised than the Limburger,

Silver Crusade

Give me some time, I've got an Alchemist I want to run through this gauntlet later.


andreww wrote:
I am honestly not looking too see if they can blow past them or solo them. I am looking to see how they contribute as part of a team, one probably rather less optimised than the Limburger,

I know. It's just interesting to see how versatile some classes are compared to others. You'd have to heavily optimize a character to be able to get past these encounters solo which you won't see from most PCs.


dotting. almost wish it was on the advice forum where it would do more good.


I'm afraid I don't have a build ready to go, but my thoughts are as follows:

My inclination is to say a fairly generic bard focused on the James Bond skill set. A human can get several free skill focuses, which combo well with versatile performance. I'm thinking Act/Orate/Perception/Stealth/Disable Device with the remaining two (at 10 int with FCB in spells or HP) points probably going towards opening class skills.

Inspire Courage, Dirge of Doom, and Saving Finale are always welcome in combat encounters. I'd probably go for a melee bard using a quickdraw shield because that needs fewer feats than archery, but since I'd be building for level 10 archery might be doable without the human bonus feat.

For encounter #1 charm can be detected with sense motive and dispelled with dispel magic. The liberated fire giant should be amenable to diplomacy, at least as far as getting rid of the succubus.

For encounter #2 and #3 I see no tricks at this point, but it's a combat encounter and bards are always useful there.

#4 is the tricky one, but skills are what it calls for and skills are what a bard does. A trapper ranger would be good for handling the door and the golem will take help, but everything else should be doable if anyone can. I kind of suspect it's designed to be failed.

#5 starts as a diplomacy job, but if it degenerates into a fight saving finale and inspire courage are there.


Okay, I'm going to try a rogue! (Vanilla Rogue at that)

Player, you have indicated that you would like to activate hard mode. Are you sure you want to do this?

Yeah, bring it on!

So be it, you have been warned.

Build::
Human Rogue 10

Traits: None (HARD MODE)
Initiative: +7(9); Senses: none; Perception +28(36 vs traps)

Defense:
AC: 19, touch 17, flat-footed 12 (+7 Dex)
HP: 72 (10d8+10); Fort +3, Ref +14, Will +5;

Defensive Abilities: Uncanny Dodge, Improved Uncanny Dodge, Trap Spotter, Trap Sense +3, Evasion

Offense:
Speed: 30 ft. (6 squares)
Special Attacks: Sneak Attack 5d6 (1's count as 2's)
Attack: +16/+11

Statistics:
Str 10, Dex 24, Con 10, Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 14
Base Atk +7; CMB +14; CMD 24

Feats: Skill Focus (Stealth), Skill Focus (Disable Device), Shadow Strike, Weapon Focus (Shortbow), Skill Focus (Acrobatics), Skill Focus (Perception)

Skills: Acrobatics +26, Bluff +15, Diplomacy +15, Disable Device +36, Escape Artist +26, Perception +28 (36 vs. Traps), Sleight of Hand +20, Stealth +33

Languages: Common

SQ: Sneak Attack 5d6, Trapfinding, Evasion, Rogue Talent (Fast Stealth), Trap Sense +3, Rogue Talent (Powerful Sneak), Uncanny Dodge, Rogue Talent (Trap Spotter), Improved Uncanny Dodge, Rogue Talent (Terain Mastery {urban}), Advanced Rogue Talent (Hide in Plain Sight {urban})

Equipment: Belt of Dexterity +4, Eyes of the Eagle, Ring of Maniacal Devices, Vestment of Escape, +1 Stalking Shortbow, Improved Shadow Leather Armor, 300g left


------------------------------------------------------------------------
Encounter 1:

I stealth up within 30ft of the Fire Giant and study him for 3 rounds to maximize the potential of my Stalking Shortbow. My next attack against him will do 9d6 points of damage (1d6 weapon, 5d6 sneak attack, 3d6 stalking) Avg damage around 30.

My minimum stealth result is a 34 which is his max perception, so I'm just going to circle around him and continue shooting, moving from one hidden in plain sight location to the next.

This should make the trolls run in fear considering they see arrows flying from nowhere that fell their fearsome leader, plus they nor the hellhounds will ever see me, so I'd kill them if they stayed anyway.

The succubus has a little bit better chance of seeing me, but, if we want to go off average rolls, she won't see me, and with 80 HP, I'll have her dead in a couple rounds.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Encounter 2:

I'll stealth through the labyrinth, I assume my perception would be enough to navigate through.

I come to the room he's in and study him for 3 rounds to once again pull off my 9d6 shot, then move to a hidden location.

He'll probably summon the silly demon, which has a better chance to see me. At which point I'll leave and wait until the demon disappears, then resume peppering him with arrows, all the while, he'll be wondering where the shots are coming from.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Encounter 3:

I'll just sneak into the monastery and wait until the cleric goes to sleep and shoot him in the face. Coup de Grace (11d6) Average fortitude save required > 40.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Encounter 4:
I take a 10 on everything throughout this encounter. I'm not invisible, I'm just that good at stealth in an Urban environment. So the true seeing and see invisibility don't do anything special to me. I'll be in and out of her room long before that 3 rounds is up, and unless she has something like a +30 perception, she won't see me even if she makes it to the room.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Encounter 5:
Going off the average roll, I should be able to just diplomacy this guy into going someplace else. It is possible for me to fail by 5 or more, but I'd have to roll a 4 or 5, overall, I think it wouldn't be that hard. Just to increase my odds, I'll try bribing him with that 300g I left over to give myself a +2 or something.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Conclusion: Rogue's don't totally suck after all.

EDIT: I didn't ever need to use Acrobatics, so swap Skill Focus (Acrobatics) over to Skill Focus (Diplomacy), and with a +21 Diplomacy, I was guaranteed to pass encounter 5.


My entry is a Bard of three archetypes.

He is designed to be an optimal partner to a single invisible, flying, sorcerer who uses dazing metamagic and "control you" spells.

How he and his ally manage the five encounters should be fairly obvious, especially to Andrew.


I like how your human rogue solves the maze by stumbling through the dark and still manages to function when they can't see anything. ;)


Encounter four. Why people visit fancy ball? Queen chambers have window. Approach from outside, flying and silenced. Break window. Cast at golem from outside building.


TarkXT wrote:
I like how your human rogue solves the maze by stumbling through the dark and still manages to function when they can't see anything. ;)

You're right, add a torch to my equipment... Sadly enough, I can still Hide in Plain Sight with one out.


Sindalla wrote:
TarkXT wrote:
I like how your human rogue solves the maze by stumbling through the dark and still manages to function when they can't see anything. ;)
You're right, add a torch to my equipment... Sadly enough, I can still Hide in Plain Sight with one out.

No sane GM will let that slide. Maybe you can have the miss chance, but there's a region of increased light wandering around. Kill the stupid invisible wizard that carries a torch. He's at the center of the glow so he's trivial to pinpoint.

You're not an invisible wizard, but an extraordinarily sneaky rogue with a flaming stick is still going to stick out like a flaming stick in an unlit dungeon. You're just more likely to be house ruled against because your flaming stick is hidden-but-still-illuminating because of nonmagical shenanigans rather than magical illusions.


Mordo the Spaz - Forum Troll wrote:
Encounter four. Why people visit fancy ball? Queen chambers have window. Approach from outside, flying and silenced. Break window. Cast at golem from outside building.

Because parties are more fun to attend than crash ;D

Sindalla wrote:
TarkXT wrote:
I like how your human rogue solves the maze by stumbling through the dark and still manages to function when they can't see anything. ;)
You're right, add a torch to my equipment... Sadly enough, I can still Hide in Plain Sight with one out.

Besides, doesn't your Hide in Plain Sight only work in urban terrains? Which includes none of these encounters...with the exception of #4


Atarlost wrote:


No sane GM will let that slide. Maybe you can have the miss chance, but there's a region of increased light wandering around. Kill the stupid invisible wizard that carries a torch. He's at the center of the glow so he's trivial to pinpoint.

You're not an invisible wizard, but an extraordinarily sneaky rogue with a flaming stick is still going to stick out like a flaming stick in an unlit dungeon. You're just more likely to be house ruled against because your flaming stick is hidden-but-still-illuminating because of nonmagical shenanigans rather than magical illusions.

Plus, the demonic mohrg can just cast darkness on the light source and then the rogue can't see again. And to get sneak attack off it, he needs to be within 30 ft. in which case the mohrg just casts blasphemy which is a 40 ft. burst centered on itself. With a CL 18, he will paralyze, weaken, and daze the rogue if he fails his saving throw. The rogue's +3 Fortitude gives him only a 15% chance of saving. Even if he saves, he is still paralyzed for 1 round in which case he can't stealth and the mohrg will see him. Then he's still screwed.

The succubus in the first encounter also has greater teleport and ethereal jaunt available since she isn't bound anymore, and can easily avoid the rogue's attacks. She can also use detect thoughts to pinpoint his location.


Quote:
Encounter #3: Air walk, displacement, shift into behemoth hippo, and cast strong jaw. Then move straight at the patrolling erinyes and bite it with Vital Strike and Furious Finish while raging. Stupid true-seeing makes it hard to sneak around. Maybe get hit twice or three times, dropping Serena down to around 70ish hp, if the devils react first. Once the erinyes is dead, finish off the rest of the bearded devils and move on after healing with a wand of cure light wounds.

There is one problem with this part of things. True Seeing has a range of 120'. The Behemoth Hippos has a speed of 50'. All of your preparations are cast out of charge range. You get one attack against her given your reach following which she greater teleports to alert Godric. She then returns to the skies and engages you at range. She may alternate rounds shooting and teleporting or spam Fear at you until you get a 1. She certainly isn't going to stand there and take vital strike bites to the face. Similarly the bearded devils will be spamming at will scorching rays at you while keeping at range with teleport. To be fair their range is much more limited due to scorching ray being a close spell. With Godric alerted you can also expect him to be adding more summons. 1d3+2 Babau casting at will dispel magic needing a 13 to strip off a buff will remove a lot of your benefits.

Now obviously there are ways you can deal with these but this one is not a foregone conclusion.


OK, lets have a look at how the rogue does.

Quote:

Encounter 1:

I stealth up within 30ft of the Fire Giant and study him for 3 rounds to maximize the potential of my Stalking Shortbow. My next attack against him will do 9d6 points of damage (1d6 weapon, 5d6 sneak attack, 3d6 stalking) Avg damage around 30.

My minimum stealth result is a 34 which is his max perception, so I'm just going to circle around him and continue shooting, moving from one hidden in plain sight location to the next.

This should make the trolls run in fear considering they see arrows flying from nowhere that fell their fearsome leader, plus they nor the hellhounds will ever see me, so I'd kill them if they stayed anyway.

The succubus has a little bit better chance of seeing me, but, if we want to go off average rolls, she won't see me, and with 80 HP, I'll have her dead in a couple rounds.

Two main problems with this. Firstly you are not in urban terrain so hide in plain sight does not work. Even if it did the Hellhounds and the Cave Trolls all have scent. You cannot actually get to within 30' of the Giant without being detected. With 6 creatures moving in a relatively small area one of them is very likely to pinpoint you. At that point you are in trouble.

Note that the Giants flat footed AC is still 24 so you are hitting on an 8/13. You average damage per attack even assuming sneak attack is about 22 so you are only managing about 23 damage per round. With 142 hp his allies have 6 rounds to locate you before you can kill him.


Quote:

Encounter 2:

I'll stealth through the labyrinth, I assume my perception would be enough to navigate through.

I come to the room he's in and study him for 3 rounds to once again pull off my 9d6 shot, then move to a hidden location.

He'll probably summon the silly demon, which has a better chance to see me. At which point I'll leave and wait until the demon disappears, then resume peppering him with arrows, all the while, he'll be wondering where the shots are coming from.

I have a hard time seeing the underground labyrinth on a giant graveyard as being an urban environment. Even if it was you are unable to see in the pitch blackness. You stumble around lost and blind until you die of thirst. If you bring a light source then you are limited in what you can see while everything else can see your light. CL18 Blasphemy paralyses you for 1d10 minutes 75% of the time and zombies eat you. If you are evil then expect SM IX for 1d3 Hezrou with DC24 fortitude stench auras. With a fort save of +3 your are incapacitated for 10 rounds and zombies eat you.


Quote:

Encounter 3:

I'll just sneak into the monastery and wait until the cleric goes to sleep and shoot him in the face. Coup de Grace (11d6) Average fortitude save required > 40.

A few problems with this. You still cannot see in the dark and a small rock in the middle of the ocean still isn't an urban area. You are spotted by the Erinyes approaching the area automatically as, assuming you are in a boat or something similar, you have no way to hide. She alerts Godric and together they assault you from the air. You probably drown as they sink your boat, probably by dropping a fiendish woolly rhinoceros or elephant on it. A rather ignominious end for a level 10 character.


Quote:

Encounter 5:

Going off the average roll, I should be able to just diplomacy this guy into going someplace else. It is possible for me to fail by 5 or more, but I'd have to roll a 4 or 5, overall, I think it wouldn't be that hard. Just to increase my odds, I'll try bribing him with that 300g I left over to give myself a +2 or something.

You need to complete at least two checks to manage this, first to move him from unfriendly to friendly and then to get him to leave people alone. The first is DC 28 so on your original build you are looking at needing a 13, 7 if you switch to skill focus. If you fail you are liable to be eaten and you also have no way of stopping him doing anything to you while you make the check. The area if also filled with smoke so you cannot see.

You have two other problems. Travel to the area will be difficult as you have no means to fly and your climb skill is 0. Altitude sickness is forcing you to take a lot of ability damage given your +3 fortitude save. Secondly the fire elementals have no incentive to leave you alone. You cannot sneak attack them and are looking at 1d6+1 damage per attack. 3 or 4 CR3 medium fire elementals actually present a serious threat to you.


Finally before finishing looking at the Rogue I wanted to make a couple of comments on the build and how well it works in a team.

Quote:

Initiative: +7(9); Senses: none; Perception +28(36 vs traps)

Defense:
AC: 19, touch 17, flat-footed 12 (+7 Dex)
HP: 72 (10d8+10); Fort +3, Ref +14, Will +5;

Defensive Abilities: Uncanny Dodge, Improved Uncanny Dodge, Trap Spotter, Trap Sense +3, Evasion

Offense:
Speed: 30 ft. (6 squares)
Special Attacks: Sneak Attack 5d6 (1's count as 2's)
Attack: +16/+11

Statistics:
Str 10, Dex 24, Con 10, Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 14
Base Atk +7; CMB +14; CMD 24

Feats: Skill Focus (Stealth), Skill Focus (Disable Device), Shadow Strike, Weapon Focus (Shortbow), Skill Focus (Acrobatics), Skill Focus (Perception)

Skills: Acrobatics +26, Bluff +15, Diplomacy +15, Disable Device +36, Escape Artist +26, Perception +28 (36 vs. Traps), Sleight of Hand +20, Stealth +33

Languages: Common

SQ: Sneak Attack 5d6, Trapfinding, Evasion, Rogue Talent (Fast Stealth), Trap Sense +3, Rogue Talent (Powerful Sneak), Uncanny Dodge, Rogue Talent (Trap Spotter), Improved Uncanny Dodge, Rogue Talent (Terain Mastery {urban}), Advanced Rogue Talent (Hide in Plain Sight {urban})

Equipment: Belt of Dexterity +4, Eyes of the Eagle, Ring of Maniacal Devices, Vestment of Escape, +1 Stalking Shortbow, Improved Shadow Leather Armor, 300g left

The first and most obvious issue here is the glaring weakness that are your saves. At level 10 the likely low DC abilities of enemies will be around 13 for CR10. With +3 fortitude and +5 will you can expect to fail against a lot of minor abilities. Main ability DC's are around 19. A 75%/65% chance to be automatically taken out of a fight is really very high. For example, the CR8 erinyes in encounter 3 can simply spam DC19 fear at you all day long until you fail.

Your AC is also extremely low. 19 at level 10 means you are getting hit on anything other than a 1. Casters can get away with low AC because they have other forms of defence. You don't. You will be fine in an urban environment but anything outside of that screws you. Also anything with blindsight, blindsense or tremorsense. Overall I have real trouble seeing how this character actually survives to level 10.

Your offence is also extremely weak. Even if you are getting sneak attack every round attacking at +16/11 for 6d6+1 is very little actual damage. When you add in a penalty for shooting into melee and cover from allies then your attacks go down to +8/3 and your average damage against a flatfooted AC20 becomes about 15. Level 10 enemies have about 130hp.

On the plus side your skills are actually very good for your level but they have clearly required you to sacrifice an enormous amount of offensive and defensive options. Unfortunately other classes can achieve equivalent effects without having to make that sacrifice.


davidvs wrote:

My entry is a Bard of three archetypes.

He is designed to be an optimal partner to a single invisible, flying, sorcerer who uses dazing metamagic and "control you" spells.

How he and his ally manage the five encounters should be fairly obvious, especially to Andrew.

Very nice, I particularly like Apparent Master as a way of dealing with Golems, I hadn't seen it before.


What is this fixation with "team?"

There have been a couple of entries that soloed the whole thing. Well one almost did them all. If she had been more diligent about scouring the druid spell list, and found some spell with the right features, and did the usual spell perfection/focus/persistent things, she probably could have one shotted the dragon.

I won't guarantee such a spell exists, but as the number of splatbooks rise, the probability approaches 1. And a spell that one shots dragons is probably useful in a lot of situations (flesh to stone, suffocate, etc). Heck Dazing alone would probably do it. Metamagic rods probably are good enough that she could get by without feats, except focus feats (realized spell perfection is level 15 or so).

But as regards a "team," if the individual members are capable of doing it solo, what other optimization do you need?

And what kind of team would be more powerful, what kind of teamwork are we talking about, that is better than a team composed of individuals that take powerful classes?

The builds I've seen are hardly useless in a great number of situations, it's not like they are useless for anything but these challenges.


Sindalla wrote:
I'm pretty sure this is why Syntheist Summoners are banned, lol.

How would a Master Summoner have done?


sunbeam wrote:
But as regards a "team," if the individual members are capable of doing it solo, what other optimization do you need?

Not need, but enjoy.

I will be too busy this week to write out how Foxisyu helps young Camulus through each of the five encounters. Perhaps Andrew or someone else can do that for us all?

That would be a great example of how young Camulus could perhaps solo all five, but with some teamwork can waltz through them easily.


sunbeam wrote:

What is this fixation with "team?"

There have been a couple of entries that soloed the whole thing. Well one almost did them all. If she had been more diligent about scouring the druid spell list, and found some spell with the right features, and did the usual spell perfection/focus/persistent things, she probably could have one shotted the dragon.

I won't guarantee such a spell exists, but as the number of splatbooks rise, the probability approaches 1. And a spell that one shots dragons is probably useful in a lot of situations (flesh to stone, suffocate, etc). Heck Dazing alone would probably do it. Metamagic rods probably are good enough that she could get by without feats, except focus feats (realized spell perfection is level 15 or so).

But as regards a "team," if the individual members are capable of doing it solo, what other optimization do you need?

And what kind of team would be more powerful, what kind of teamwork are we talking about, that is better than a team composed of individuals that take powerful classes?

The builds I've seen are hardly useless in a great number of situations, it's not like they are useless for anything but these challenges.

Everyone wrote how they would play the NPC's but when up against a GM things do not tend to always go as smoothly.


andreww wrote:
You have two other problems. Travel to the area will be difficult as you have no means to fly and your climb skill is 0. Altitude sickness is forcing you to take a lot of ability damage given your +3 fortitude save.

These aren't supposed to be solo. The wizard does the teleporting because he can't climb either. Someone hits everyone with fire resistance because you're going to meet some variation of a red dragon. The party springs for a lesser restoration wand if they think there's any chance of being up there long term because everyone is vulnerable to altitude sickness.

Then the rogue talks to the dragon. Seems legit. And he might actually survive failing thanks to evasion and lack of ability to resist dragon fear. Disposable ambassador to an unfriendly dragon is the perfect job for a rogue.


andreww wrote:
Quote:
Encounter #3: Air walk, displacement, shift into behemoth hippo, and cast strong jaw. Then move straight at the patrolling erinyes and bite it with Vital Strike and Furious Finish while raging. Stupid true-seeing makes it hard to sneak around. Maybe get hit twice or three times, dropping Serena down to around 70ish hp, if the devils react first. Once the erinyes is dead, finish off the rest of the bearded devils and move on after healing with a wand of cure light wounds.

There is one problem with this part of things. True Seeing has a range of 120'. The Behemoth Hippos has a speed of 50'. All of your preparations are cast out of charge range. You get one attack against her given your reach following which she greater teleports to alert Godric. She then returns to the skies and engages you at range. She may alternate rounds shooting and teleporting or spam Fear at you until you get a 1. She certainly isn't going to stand there and take vital strike bites to the face. Similarly the bearded devils will be spamming at will scorching rays at you while keeping at range with teleport. To be fair their range is much more limited due to scorching ray being a close spell. With Godric alerted you can also expect him to be adding more summons. 1d3+2 Babau casting at will dispel magic needing a 13 to strip off a buff will remove a lot of your benefits.

Now obviously there are ways you can deal with these but this one is not a foregone conclusion.

Despite the fact Serena only gets one attack off against her, that's all she needs since even without Vital Strike and Furious Finish, she can use grab as a behemoth hippo. Her CMB is +7 from BAB, +11 from strength while raging and wild shaped, +2 from Huge size, and +4 from having grab for a total of +24 against the erinyes' CMD 25 for being flat-footed (Serena can charge 120 ft. because of fast movement from barb and hippo speed, so still allowing her to cover the distance). Once the erinyes is grabbed, she might as well be dead. A protection from energy against fire should render the scorching rays useless while Serena takes out the bearded devils or use summon nature's ally to do so. Alternatively, she could probably sneak around the devils as a thrush or bat while invisible if possible. Plus, Godric can't summon babaus right? They're demons first of all, so Asmodeus would probably object, but throwing that away it's a chaotic spell and Godric is LE so he can't cast it.


sunbeam wrote:

What is this fixation with "team?"

There have been a couple of entries that soloed the whole thing. Well one almost did them all. If she had been more diligent about scouring the druid spell list, and found some spell with the right features, and did the usual spell perfection/focus/persistent things, she probably could have one shotted the dragon.

I won't guarantee such a spell exists, but as the number of splatbooks rise, the probability approaches 1. And a spell that one shots dragons is probably useful in a lot of situations (flesh to stone, suffocate, etc). Heck Dazing alone would probably do it. Metamagic rods probably are good enough that she could get by without feats, except focus feats (realized spell perfection is level 15 or so).

But as regards a "team," if the individual members are capable of doing it solo, what other optimization do you need?

And what kind of team would be more powerful, what kind of teamwork are we talking about, that is better than a team composed of individuals that take powerful classes?

The builds I've seen are hardly useless in a great number of situations, it's not like they are useless for anything but these challenges.

If I were to take a stab at this again with Serena against the magma dragon, I would have her buffed up with invisibility, strong jaw, protection from energy against fire, stoneskin, thorn body, air walk, and displacement as a behemoth hippo. She would spend her surprise round closing in on the dragon since the magma has blindsense to 60 ft. Assuming the dragon wins initiative which is likely, it would likely choose to breathe fire because it doesn't know about the protection spell or full attack. The protection from energy against fire would make its breath attack useless, but if it chose to full attack using Power Attack that's 37 damage after applying stoneskin (blindsense doesn't negate Serena's 50% miss chance from invisibility). However, the dragon would take 37 points of damage on average from thorn body with the three natural attacks it managed to hit, dropping it to 158 hp.

Serena's +16 Will allows her only a 20% chance of failing against frightful presence. Now on her turn, she would attack using Vital Strike, giving her a 45% chance to hit. Assuming she misses, her invisibility breaks and the dragon full attacks her with Power Attack. She takes 37 points of damage again because of displacement (by the way, I'm assuming dragon always hits her if it can get passed the displacement since her AC is terrible). Dragon's hp drops to 121 hp from thorn body. Let's say Serena manages to hit her Vital Strike and Furious Finish on her turn, that would instantly kill the dragon. If the dragon had spent earlier rounds casting dispel magic (only 50% chance of getting rid of Serena's stoneskin) or breathing fire, I think she would have this fight won more quickly.

EDIT: I would give Serena a 55-60% chance of winning against the dragon in straight up combat (if she has time to buff) which obviously isn't ideal, but more than what most PCs can accomplish.


devilbunny wrote:
Despite the fact Serena only gets one attack off against her, that's all she needs since even without Vital Strike and Furious Finish, she can use grab as a behemoth hippo. Her CMB is +7 from BAB, +11 from strength while raging and wild shaped, +2 from Huge size, and +4 from having grab for a total of +24 against the erinyes' CMD 25 for being flat-footed (Serena can charge 120 ft. because of fast movement from barb and hippo speed, so still allowing her to cover the distance). Once the erinyes is grabbed, she might...

All of these are fair points. I always forget the stupid cleric alignment spell restriction as I much prefer Oracles.


I am really enjoying this thread, similarly to how I enjoyed andreww soloing that module.

Seeing how creative some players all is really great! I hope more people attempt it


devilbunny wrote:
Mordo the Spaz - Forum Troll wrote:
Encounter four. Why people visit fancy ball? Queen chambers have window. Approach from outside, flying and silenced. Break window. Cast at golem from outside building.

Because parties are more fun to attend than crash ;D

Sindalla wrote:
TarkXT wrote:
I like how your human rogue solves the maze by stumbling through the dark and still manages to function when they can't see anything. ;)
You're right, add a torch to my equipment... Sadly enough, I can still Hide in Plain Sight with one out.
Besides, doesn't your Hide in Plain Sight only work in urban terrains? Which includes none of these encounters...with the exception of #4

Cold (ice, glaciers, snow, and tundra)

Desert (sand and wastelands)
Forest (coniferous and deciduous)
Jungle
Mountain (including hills)
Plains
Planes (pick one, other than Material Plane)
Swamp
Underground (caves and dungeons)
*Urban (buildings, streets, and sewers)*
Water (above and below the surface)

Encounter 1, A tower (in which the fire giant was in) is a building.

Encounter 2, I didn't read close enough to realize that it was "beneath" the necropolis, I thought it was "inside" which would have then counted as a building, my bad there.

Encounter 3, again, this was poor reading on my part, I just paid attention to the monastery part, not the fact that it was on a giant rock in the middle of the ocean

Encounter 4, pretty sure I rocked that one.

Encounter 5, The DC to diplomacy him is supposed to be 20 + his Cha modifier, which was should have been a DC:23, unless I looked up the wrong dragon.

Lastly, it was a rogue, which, as other threads have determined, suck. They have so many glaring weaknesses, it's pathetic. I fully realized as I was making this character just how badly gimped they are compared to other classes.


I plan on submitting a cavalier. At least this firt attempt.

I might do another one under a different idea. But I feel a point requires proving here.


Yeah, rogues are really gimped when it comes to options and versatility. Honestly, it seems like you did the best you could given the circumstances, and you did easily navigate the last two encounters. I'll be quite interested to see how the cavalier fares.

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