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Can an animal with Int 3+ take Improved Unarmed Strike?
Animal companions with an Intelligence of 3 or higher can select any feat they are physically capable of using.
“Armed” Unarmed Attacks: Sometimes a character’s or creature’s unarmed attack counts as an armed attack. A
monk, a character with the Improved Unarmed Strike feat, a spellcaster delivering a touch attack spell, and a creature with natural physical weapons all count as being armed (see natural attacks).
Improved Unarmed Strike (Combat)
You are skilled at fighting while unarmed.
Benefit: You are considered to be armed even when unarmed—you do not provoke attacks of opportunity when you attack foes while unarmed. Your unarmed strikes can deal lethal or nonlethal damage, at your choice.
Normal: Without this feat, you are considered unarmed when attacking with an unarmed strike, and you can deal only nonlethal damage with such an attack.
Keep in mind, allowing IUS on animals, means they are now hitting folk with the sides of their head, headbutting, retracted claws on cats, tail slapping snakes (tail slap is a natural attack form), etc. They would be able to take many of the Improved combat maneuver feats (like Improved Grapple) and Combat Style feats like Dragon Style, Serpent Style, Panther Style, et. al.
My answer would be, that since animals are not considered unarmed, that Improved Unarmed Strike does them no good. And that they do not have the correct mentality or anatomy to use IUS.
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The entire point of taking IUS is usually to get to things the animals CAN do: charge lithely over obstacles, squeeze people harder, or dodge blows with perfect timing.
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Every creature with a physical body can make an unarmed strike.
Having a natural attack does not make this ability go away.
Your Half-Orc PC is fully capable of biting, and kicking, his enemies.
Most unintelligent creatures with natural attacks, simply choose not to make unarmed strikes.
It's not something they are usually good at, or comfortable doing.
A Hippo is capable of kicking you, but would usually just choose to bite you.
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I see no reason to believe that they could not. A PC who happens to have claws as a racial feature can still use unarmed strikes. Why shouldn't an animal?
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Although I was involved in the discussion that led up to Andy making this thread, I totally forgot one key detail:
Animals are already capable of making Unarmed Strikes.
Improved Unarmed Strike simply eliminates the Attack of Opportunity that a headbutting snake would normally receive.
So the question isn't whether an intelligent animal can take IUS.
It's whether such a creature can make unarmed strikes at all.
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But for the master to make an animal do something it wouldn't normally want to do, it would require a push.
Would you really tell your animal to headbutt the BBEG instead of bite, and thus use your move action to do so (assuming you have the link).
Using the excuse that IUS gives you access to feats your animal would be able to use (or naturally compliments the animals natural abilities, such as improved grapple for any animal that has the grab special ability) doesn't really work.
You can't just assign part of IUS to the animal. It either has IUS or it doesn't. It is binary.
As such, if you don't feel that animals would take unarmed strikes, even if they knew how to do so without provoking, then they wouldn't be able to take IUS.
The important question that we all must ask here is why would an animal want to take IUS when the have a clearly more effective form of unarmed attacks?
...so you can have your awakened animal companion (you know, a companion who happens to be an awakened animal) shout "SPINNING DRAGON ATTACK!"... Maybe?
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Have you ever seen someone try to push their Animal Companion to perform an unarmed strike?
I know I haven't.
It's only the following feats the player is after.
I'm imagining, in a fantasy world, of course, where my Druid can actually talk to his snake:
"Hey boy, you're a good boy, aren't you?"
"Thatta boy. Hey, how would you like me to show you how to better catch a human-sized rat?"
"Alright, bare with me here. You actually want to lead with your coils, and follow up with your bite, rather than the other way around."
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Can an animal with Int 3+ take Improved Unarmed Strike?
Animal companions with an Intelligence of 3 or higher can select any feat they are physically capable of using.
Everyone's opinion as to whether an animal can or cannot take IUS is just that...their opinion.
The decision is up to the GM. I will not allow an animal with 3+ to take the IUS feat in my game. As someone who has done his fair share of martial arts, not only do I have a problem with the physical limitations of the animal, but I also have a problem with a creature of low intelligence learning a skill that complex.
Go ahead and FAQ away, but I would be surprised if Paizo gives feedback other than the GM using common sense.
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One would want an animal to take Improved Unarmed Strike so that it could be a better grappler. Specificially:
Improved Unarmed Strike ==> Improved Grapple ==> Greater Grapple.
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The decision is up to the GM. I will not allow an animal with 3+ to take the IUS feat in my game. As someone who has done his fair share of martial arts, not only do I have a problem with the physical limitations of the animal, but I also have a problem with a creature of low intelligence learning a skill that complex.Go ahead and FAQ away, but I would be surprised if Paizo gives feedback other than the GM using common sense.
Funny, guys with MA experience usually just s@$$ on the Fighters and the Monks. S@++ting on Animal Companions with REALIZMS! is new.
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Go ahead and FAQ away, but I would be surprised if Paizo gives feedback other than the GM using common sense.
The OP and I are looking to get this FAQ'd for Pathfinder Society. This discussion was spurned from THIS THREAD.
His and my interpretation of "common sense" is apparently different.
One would want an animal to take Improved Unarmed Strike so that it could be a better grappler. Specificially:
Improved Unarmed Strike ==> Improved Grapple ==> Greater Grapple.
Personally, I would let the grab ability stand in for Improved Grapple (and IUS) as a prerequisite.
Edit: Seeing as the question relates to PFS, I suppose that doesn't help :)
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Well, you have an animal, that now has a +3 intelligence.
It can put a rank in linguistics, and now read and understand one language. That's not even in question.
You now teach it to smack other creatures, with parts of it's body it's not used to smacking creatures with.
Nobody is trying to pull the rainbow of infinite gold out of horse's backside.
He is just teaching a very smart horse to headbutt things.
It is not that hard to understand.
Hell, you could have your ape companion put ranks is Craft:Knitting, and knit you a dang sweater.
These are extraordinarily smart animals.
I still cannot see what's putting the brown in everyone's briefs.
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I still cannot see what's putting the brown in everyone's briefs.The way that Constrictor Snake Animal Companions dominate PFS scenarios.
PFS houserule it.
PFS already has a number of houserules.
This is not a RAW issue.
We do not need another Crane Wing or Weapon Cord deal here.
An animal with IUS should be able to take followup BAB attacks. Meaning that a tiger at lvl 10 after gaining multiattack should be able to IUS/IUS-5/bite-2/2x claw -2 on a pounce... Right?
Can ACs with 3 into learn knowledge nature? If so then the wolf style line, specifically wolf savage could work out well.
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Can ACs with 3 into learn knowledge nature? If so then the wolf style line, specifically wolf savage could work out well.
I wish my dog would hurry up and figure out that the skunk is NOT a kitty...
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I still cannot see what's putting the brown in everyone's briefs.The way that Constrictor Snake Animal Companions dominate PFS scenarios.Just for kicks, describe how it dominates PFS scenarios. Is it casting spells, stealthing past all of the enemies, disarming traps, making diplomacy checks, intimidating the masses, shooting its bow with great accuracy?
What exactly is the all powerful snake doing
It removes one foe from combat...over 1-3 rounds.
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Hell, you could have your ape companion put ranks is Craft:Knitting, and knit you a dang sweater.
That's best done with a long-haired AC. It can use its own fur/hair to craft the sweater. Except some GMs would rule that that's impossible because you have to pay for the raw materials.
It removes one foe from combat...over 1-3 rounds.I still cannot see what's putting the brown in everyone's briefs.The way that Constrictor Snake Animal Companions dominate PFS scenarios.Just for kicks, describe how it dominates PFS scenarios. Is it casting spells, stealthing past all of the enemies, disarming traps, making diplomacy checks, intimidating the masses, shooting its bow with great accuracy?
What exactly is the all powerful snake doing
What does that mean? Are you saying that it attempts to grapple an enemy? In that case, it removes itself from combat for 1 to 3 rounds as well.
Why not post the stats for the snake companion? I am just interested in what a beast of a snake this must be to lead to several posts about IUS and intelligent animals (which is clearly legal).
If I had to guess, I'd say Serum was being sarcastic. But I could be wrong.
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Driver. Over in the PFS forums, there are several people who are convinced that AC's are brokenly overpowered. Not a specific build, *any* optimal AC build.
On the rare occasion we can get them to give us examples of the AC being broken, it generally turns out that the AC was violating the rules in some way. (for example a 2nd level AC built with the adult animal stat block, not the starting AC stat block.)
The core of this feeling is the belief that the Druid, *on his own* is effectively a full character on the order of effectiveness of a cleric, and that giving him an AC on top of that, even if the AC is only equivalent to 2/3 of a fighter, is effectively giving him a character that has the effectiveness of 1 2/3 of everyone else at the table.
So the druids AC takes one opponent (and itself) out of the fight, and then the druid still gets all his actions to play with.
Thus, anytime someone comes up with something cool to do with an AC, people start coming up with justifications for why it won't work.
Nefreet, I don't think that your Greater Grapple Serpent is actually the real fear. I think what people are afraid of is the Crane Wing Tigers.
(Damn, now I want a crane wing tiger icon. I don't care about the crane wing tiger, though that might be fun to build at some point, I just want the icon.)
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It seems odd to me that the feats an INT 3 companion would be restricted to would be those it would be naturally inclined towards, since that's basically the definition of the feats they're restricted to BEFORE they get that third point of INT.
What exactly is 3 INT opening up, if not something as basic as a different method of attack?
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Just for kicks, describe how it dominates PFS scenarios. Is it casting spells, stealthing past all of the enemies, disarming traps, making diplomacy checks, intimidating the masses, shooting its bow with great accuracy?
What exactly is the all powerful snake doing
Its doing something PFS wasn't prepared for. I sense a crane wing coming...
Okay, by second level you can buy a tigerPlus, I don't get the AC hate anyway. With the rich parent trait you can buy a tiger at level 1. That will make your 1st level AC (heck your 4th level AC) look like crap.That trait is not legal in Society.
For level 1, you'll have to settle for a leopard. It can only charge 60' before pouncing with 5 attacks. boo hoo.
Have you ever seen someone try to push their Animal Companion to perform an unarmed strike?
I know I haven't.
It's only the following feats the player is after.
I'm imagining, in a fantasy world, of course, where my Druid can actually talk to his snake:
"Hey boy, you're a good boy, aren't you?"
"Thatta boy. Hey, how would you like me to show you how to better catch a human-sized rat?"
"Alright, bare with me here. You actually want to lead with your coils, and follow up with your bite, rather than the other way around."
But in all seriousness, I do believe that there a somewhat RAW answer for this. It all relies upon whether you think of unarmed strikes as manufactured attacks (they get iteratives, which is somewhat supporting this idea). Anyway, here is the relevant text from Ultimate Campaign:
An intelligent animal is smart enough to use tools, but might lack the ability to manipulate them. a crow could be able to use simple lockpicks, but a dog can't. Even if the animal is physically capable of using a tool, it might still prefer its own natural body to manufactured items, especially when it comes to weapons. An intelligent gorilla could hold or wield a sword, but its inclination is to make slam attacks. No amount of training (including weapon proficiency feats) is going to make it fully comfortable attacking in any other way.
Now, while an unarmed strike is made with their own body.....can you really say that headbutting for a dog rather than using the bite that all of its instincts are screaming for it to use is any different from a gorilla with a sword? So, if there is an actual natural attack, I think that most animals, particularly not truly intelligent ones like AC's, will go for those long, long before they ever go for IUS.
But sure, you can teach it IUS. That is legal. But much like the kangaroo in the video above, you really have to push it so that it doesn't just revert to its claws (in many such videos, I can definitely see the kangaroo trying to grapple the neck, which is usually a move it does before it tries to eviscerate something with its powerful back legs). So it is mostly just good as a prerequisite for other feats, as Magda Luckbender brought up.
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Absolutely. As I said in the other thread, I would never have my snake perform an unarmed strike. The only reason I'd be teaching it IUS, is to qualify for other feats that would make sense for a snake to have (like Improved Grapple).
For some people, the mere thought of giving them the feat is akin to having them make unarmed strikes. Teaching them the feat to begin with is unreasonable and silly, they argue, extrapolating their viewpoint from the idea that it is unreasonable and silly to have a snake headbutt someone rather than bite.
I've told the velociraptor to tailwhack someone we wanted alive, but his int is 4 and he understands draconic.