How to make the fighter and monk in my group feel less useless?


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

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VM mercenario wrote:

Except being 'consistent' and 'able to go all day long' is worth crap in a team game. After the casters have spent their spells and the barbarian and bard spend their rounds, and the monk spent their ki, and the pally is out of lay on hands/smites, the fighter and the rogue have three options:

1- Keep going alone and die against any level appropriate encounter.
2- Drag the party with them so they can all die while the fighter uses the enemy distraction to kill the enemies and feel good about his bad carrer choice at the cost of everybody else.
3- Rest with the team.
Well there is a fourth... Go alone and face ridiculously weak opponents and be coddled by the DM so the player can feel special.

Guess you never got attacked at night while the party were camped up and resting, then.

Because it's not always about the party taking initiative, sometimes the enemy do, and that's when you are grateful of that fighter.


I think alot of people are missing one big thing about my post.

The fighter is on par with the other martials IF THEY DON'T USE THEIR ABILITIES. If the fighter is blowing his feats on things like cosmopolitan and skill focus then you are not going to have very many more feats than the Barb or Pally. That is going to end up making you rather meh compared to them in lower levels.

Ironically, at lower levels, the fighter who wastes his few STANDARD LEVEL feats to make up for his piss poor will save AND non-existent skill points, will actually be weaker than his counter-parts. Since they do not possess the fighter's OOC and durability weaknessess, they can spend their feats on things to make them better in combat. That will end up making them on par to better than the fighter. It is not till you get to mid-late levels that the fighter will start to pull ahead/catch up (when weapon training gets better and when you start REALLY pulling ahead of the othe martials in feats).

The thing to remember though, is that this is BEFORE YOU START FACTORING IN THINGS LIKE RAGE. Once you apply rage/smite, you start looking much better than the fighter.


K177Y C47 wrote:

I think alot of people are missing one big thing about my post.

The fighter is on par with the other martials IF THEY DON'T USE THEIR ABILITIES. If the fighter is blowing his feats on things like cosmopolitan and skill focus then you are not going to have very many more feats than the Barb or Pally. That is going to end up making you rather meh compared to them in lower levels.

Ironically, at lower levels, the fighter who wastes his few STANDARD LEVEL feats to make up for his piss poor will save AND non-existent skill points, will actually be weaker than his counter-parts. Since they do not possess the fighter's OOC and durability weaknessess, they can spend their feats on things to make them better in combat. That will end up making them on par to better than the fighter. It is not till you get to mid-late levels that the fighter will start to pull ahead/catch up (when weapon training gets better and when you start REALLY pulling ahead of the othe martials in feats).

The thing to remember though, is that this is BEFORE YOU START FACTORING IN THINGS LIKE RAGE. Once you apply rage/smite, you start looking much better than the fighter.

Well, that's not entirely true.

First, a fighter gains up to +4 attack and +4 damage by his class feature with a group of weapon (+3/+3 with a secon, +2/+2 with a third and +1/+1 with a fourth).
Then, a fighter have access to a pair of gloves that grants him +2/+2 with all his favored group (so up to +6/+6 here).
Finally, with 4 feats (including 3 fighter only), he gets +2/+4 with a single weapon.

His class features (including 4 fighter bonus feats) grants him +8 attack and +12 damage always on. Well, as other classes can take Weapon focus, lets say +7/+12 compared to a warrior. That's better than Mighty rage (to compare), but lower than a smite (but only on a couple ennemies a day).

Then you have to account for other abilities : more feats means a fighter have more chance to have Lunge, Critical mastery (and a few critical feats), he moves in fullplate as in leather armor, he can choose a secondary type of attack with free feats (he has double the feats of other classes). He can even take one or two feats on out of combat things (Skill focus, for example) or in improving his save weaknesses (Iron will, + greater version) and not suffer from it.

Sure, what Barbarians, Rangers and Paladin get is great, but that doesn't mean the fighter is bad.
Always-on good attack and damage bonuses, plus mastery of whole styles of combat, plus mastery of armors, plus mastery of critical hits makes him a strong melee character that is welcome in a group. He will be a little behind in out of combat stuff, but can use his 2 to 3 free skill points per level to take any skill he wants to.

When you compare it to a monk (-2/+0 to attacks compared to a warrior, but more attacks to do, and -5/+0 when standard attacking), its just a whole different (assuming the same abilities and one handed weapon for the warrior, as it can go much worse than that with THW and the MAD part of the monk, notably for damage). And the monk isn't really that superior in out of combat stuff than the fighter.


Remember back when fighters ended up with the best saves? I'd say "Those were the days" but damn was that system ever clunky

Scarab Sages

Pomkin wrote:

I've got a group with a druid, a magus, a fighter, a monk, and a rogue.

The monk and fighter are complaining about feeling totally useless for anything out of combat, but I don't know how to rectify this for them.

What could I do for them that the other classes couldn't do better?

Regarding the Fighter, I originally posted this in another thread:

"Fighters don't just have a smattering of skills (the giving of a couple of which I do find kind of questionable; I guess if I had had my way, I would have been more inclined to give Fighters any SINGLE Knowledge skill of their choice to reflect their diverse backgrounds, and Acrobatics instead of Survival) that apply to challenges beyond combat: They have strong physical abilities. Yes, one could point out that ability scores are a phenomenon separate from character class, but while that's true, bear in mind that Fighters are one of small minority of classes that can afford to function well (even fantastic) with most or all their points/good rolls dedicated to Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution (the others I can think of being Rogues, Barbarians, Cavaliers, and Samurai, all of whom, quite possibly even Barbarians, actually feel a much stronger tug toward a modicum of mental power than Fighters) - which is not to say that you can't or shouldn't have a Fighter with appreciable mental faculties, just that you have the best opportunity not to, with them. Anyways, what does this mean outside combat? Plenty. Brush up on your extra-strong/nimble/tough comic book superheroes, most of whom have a "thing" about actually killing people, and wind up in a lot of situations where they employ their might for non-violent ends: Halting a runaway vehicle, clearing rubble, rescuing the weak from rockslides/falling/burning buildings/drowning, lifting and carrying impossibly heavy things, supporting collapsing structures, bursting fetters, and don't forget lifting gates and bending bars, which had it's own seat at the Strength progression table in 2nd Edition. The Fighter is not a man for all seasons - in that respect, it's in the majority of classes, and if invited to the Royal Ball, most Fighters will be in the backroom quietly playing cards and waiting for trouble with the Monk and the Alchemist - but in a well-built game that incorporates a wide array of challenges, they'll still have plenty to do.

I've thought for a while that what would be darned welcome would be a sourcebook - hardcover-sized, not just a "player companion" - that was all about non-combat challenges, and what characters of all types could do with them."

Regarding the Monk, most of the same applies, but they can rise to different challenges. One thing that sets Monks WAAAY apart from Fighters are their powers of mobility - speed, leaping, falling safely, limited teleportation (when they get that far), all that good stuff. Again, think of the uses you'd see those things put to in comic books. Heck, does the Monk not realize that with their mobility, superior saving throws, roughly-equal talent for stealth, and almost-certainly superior Wisdom, they might be a BETTER scout/spy than the Rogue? The two should go together when it comes time for that.


Avh wrote:
K177Y C47 wrote:

I think alot of people are missing one big thing about my post.

The fighter is on par with the other martials IF THEY DON'T USE THEIR ABILITIES. If the fighter is blowing his feats on things like cosmopolitan and skill focus then you are not going to have very many more feats than the Barb or Pally. That is going to end up making you rather meh compared to them in lower levels.

Ironically, at lower levels, the fighter who wastes his few STANDARD LEVEL feats to make up for his piss poor will save AND non-existent skill points, will actually be weaker than his counter-parts. Since they do not possess the fighter's OOC and durability weaknessess, they can spend their feats on things to make them better in combat. That will end up making them on par to better than the fighter. It is not till you get to mid-late levels that the fighter will start to pull ahead/catch up (when weapon training gets better and when you start REALLY pulling ahead of the othe martials in feats).

The thing to remember though, is that this is BEFORE YOU START FACTORING IN THINGS LIKE RAGE. Once you apply rage/smite, you start looking much better than the fighter.

Well, that's not entirely true.

First, a fighter gains up to +4 attack and +4 damage by his class feature with a group of weapon (+3/+3 with a secon, +2/+2 with a third and +1/+1 with a fourth).
Then, a fighter have access to a pair of gloves that grants him +2/+2 with all his favored group (so up to +6/+6 here).
Finally, with 4 feats (including 3 fighter only), he gets +2/+4 with a single weapon.

His class features (including 4 fighter bonus feats) grants him +8 attack and +12 damage always on. Well, as other classes can take Weapon focus, lets say +7/+12 compared to a warrior. That's better than Mighty rage (to compare), but lower than a smite (but only on a couple ennemies a day).

Then you have to account for other abilities : more feats means a fighter have more chance to have Lunge, Critical mastery (and a few critical...

Except if you notice, I said AT LOW LEVELS. At higher levels sure, but at lower levels, weapon training is pretty much a +1 enchantment. That is it. Additionally, it progresses so slowly (along with armor training) that you don't really see the benefits until mid level.

Personally that is what I hate. Unless the fighter uses all of his early feats to power speed through feat trees, he doesn't benefit from his other class abilities until mid to late levels, where as Pally are adding CHa to saves a level 2, barbs are raging with HUGE bonuses EVERYWHERE at level 1, and the ranger has his favored enemy at level 2. I mean, the fighter's ACTUAL class abilities take forever to really kick in.


K177Y C47 wrote:

Except if you notice, I said AT LOW LEVELS. At higher levels sure, but at lower levels, weapon training is pretty much a +1 enchantment. That is it. Additionally, it progresses so slowly (along with armor training) that you don't really see the benefits until mid level.

Personally that is what I hate. Unless the fighter uses all of his early feats to power speed through feat trees, he doesn't benefit from his other class abilities until mid to late levels, where as Pally are adding CHa to saves a level 2, barbs are raging with HUGE bonuses EVERYWHERE at level 1, and the ranger has his favored enemy at level 2. I mean, the fighter's ACTUAL class abilities take forever to really kick in.

Point taken : at low levels, the fighter has his feats only to make him different.

However, those feats are not just for show you know !

At level 1, a fighter can have both Weapon focus and power attack and already do way enough damage to technically kill most enemies in 1 hit or maybe 2 hits for the next couple levels. He doesn't need another +2 at this level yet. He also has good HP and great AC.

At level 5, he gets +1/+1 with a group of weapon, +1/+2 with a chosen weapon. That is similar to rage bonus with 2 handed weapons (+2/+3), and that is always-on. He also get less maluses from his armor, and more bonuses from DEX. And he still doesn't have spent half his feats (and can change one he selected earlier if he wants to, thanks to a class feature).

At level 9, he has always-on from +4/+4 to +6/+6 with his weapon (twice the bonuses from rage + weapon focus). He gets more from his armor, reduce maluses with it AND doesn't get slowed by it anymore. He didn't even spend a fourth of his feats to do that, and can change again one feat he took earlier.

Having bonus always-on, he can afford to power attack pretty much all the time from level 1. The attack bonuses he gets from level 9 onward will only serve to help him hit hard ennemies with his last attack.


Avh wrote:
K177Y C47 wrote:

Except if you notice, I said AT LOW LEVELS. At higher levels sure, but at lower levels, weapon training is pretty much a +1 enchantment. That is it. Additionally, it progresses so slowly (along with armor training) that you don't really see the benefits until mid level.

Personally that is what I hate. Unless the fighter uses all of his early feats to power speed through feat trees, he doesn't benefit from his other class abilities until mid to late levels, where as Pally are adding CHa to saves a level 2, barbs are raging with HUGE bonuses EVERYWHERE at level 1, and the ranger has his favored enemy at level 2. I mean, the fighter's ACTUAL class abilities take forever to really kick in.

Point taken : at low levels, the fighter has his feats only to make him different.

However, those feats are not just for show you know !

At level 1, a fighter can have both Weapon focus and power attack and already do way enough damage to technically kill most enemies in 1 hit or maybe 2 hits for the next couple levels. He doesn't need another +2 at this level yet. He also has good HP and great AC.

At level 5, he gets +1/+1 with a group of weapon, +1/+2 with a chosen weapon. That is similar to rage bonus with 2 handed weapons (+2/+3), and that is always-on. He also get less maluses from his armor, and more bonuses from DEX. And he still doesn't have spent half his feats (and can change one he selected earlier if he wants to, thanks to a class feature).

At level 9, he has always-on from +4/+4 to +6/+6 with his weapon (twice the bonuses from rage + weapon focus). He gets more from his armor, reduce maluses with it AND doesn't get slowed by it anymore. He didn't even spend a fourth of his feats to do that, and can change again one feat he took earlier.

Having bonus always-on, he can afford to power attack pretty much all the time from level 1. The attack bonuses he gets from level 9 onward will only serve to help him hit hard ennemies with his last attack.

Oh yeah for sure! If a fighter takes combat feats he can be a BEAST at lower levels, but some people are suggesting for the fighter to take non-combat feats with his HD-based feats to "be decent at out of combat stuff". The problem with that is that, at low levels the fighter is HORRIDLY gimped, at mid to high levels, those abilities are a waste of time vs the guys adding a million things to their skill roles and such.


@K177Y C47 : I am part of those who think that by spending 1, or maybe even 2 feats in non combat feats the fighter can still be a beast but also be good at at least one thing out of combat.

And you don't need to be able to do a thousand things perfectly, it's not your job ! When I see a fighter in the group, I don't expect him to do the wizard thing, or the rogue thing. Just being able to do something in addition to your job (aka fighting) is already more than what the group awaits from you.

As I said earlier, spending a few skill points amongst a few selected skills can create your out of combat activities by itself, and improving it by 1 or 2 feats, and/or eventually a trait can be a huge boost to your OOC usefulness too.

And that, in addition to what your incredible body abilities allows you to do by itself, as someone wrote earlier : lifting heavy things, helping to build or rebuild homes by sheer strength, do a contest of endurance/alcool/arm wrestling or whatever you prefer to do.

I am not suggesting to make the fighter into a rogue by sacrificing all his feats and raising INT more than it should. Just use what you have from the start : use the INT you get, select your skills wisely (instead of the boring Perception + craft + ride I see a lot), benefit from the fact you have twice the feats of other classes to eventually spend one of those without impeding your combat effectiveness.
Actually, just by selecting more carefully your few skills (not optimizing for it, just choosing where the points you already have will go to), you can be a very useful character out of combat.

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