How to make the fighter and monk in my group feel less useless?


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

1 to 50 of 309 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | next > last >>

I've got a group with a druid, a magus, a fighter, a monk, and a rogue.

The monk and fighter are complaining about feeling totally useless for anything out of combat, but I don't know how to rectify this for them.

What could I do for them that the other classes couldn't do better?


Let them change classes? Not to be snarky but Fighters and monks really don't have much to bring out of combat by crunch...


The monk should be fine outside of combat. A good skill list and the normal monk stat division should make them functional. I'd worry more about the monk IN combat, frankly.

The fighter can be functional. Even a non-Lorewarden will be useful if he or she chooses to be. Say, human with Int 12 (or 13 for CE if you wish) and favourite class bonus means 5 skill points per level. Of course, if they dumped int at creation and never took traits to enhance their class skill selection, they'll be useless, but that's to be expected.

Liberty's Edge

if you are playing a non society game i highly recommend upping your fighters skill points level 4+int a level or even 6+int depending on how much more utility you want them to have.

As for monks looking into some 3rd party products such as The Way of Ki or The New Paths Compendium could really help them out as well.


I may be fighting a losing battle here, but what is left for the rogue if the fighter has a base of 6+int? Even at the current state of the game a rogue can barely hold his own, and mainly outside of combat.

Just encourage the player of the fighter to reroll with a higher int and and to invest a trait or two into their skills. They have the feats to pick up "extra traits" as well if they so choose.

Liberty's Edge

Heh honestly Makarion i gave up on the rogue a while back and encourage my players to use ninjas instead. That said i would like to see some more love for fighter and rogue.


8 people marked this as a favorite.

Hit the tavern, flirt with wenches? That's what all my fighters do outside combat. Do it right and he may even create a combat...


Makarion wrote:

I may be fighting a losing battle here, but what is left for the rogue if the fighter has a base of 6+int? Even at the current state of the game a rogue can barely hold his own, and mainly outside of combat.

Just encourage the player of the fighter to reroll with a higher int and and to invest a trait or two into their skills. They have the feats to pick up "extra traits" as well if they so choose.

I'm not too worried about the rogue, the player who plays him has a very firm grasp of the system, and traps are extremely common, it keeps him very happy.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

If the fighter and the monk are feeling useless, it is likely a playstyle issue. Sometimes this is a case of poorly designed characters, or poorly designed encounters.

You can make a fighter with 16 str 12 dex 14 con 13 int 12 wis 8 cha use some of your plethora of feats, for skill focus or extra traits to get claws skills. You can finish an AP with him no problem.

In the case of the monk, they are a system mastery class. If you understand the game mechanically and have a good idea of tactics you can manage with one through a whole game. They have a good skill selection and are probly the best martial class int he game when it comes to interacting with their enviroment (ie if it exists they can climb it swim in it jump over it dodge it avoid it)

However, alot of players try to make the monk do things the class wasnt designed to do, or misconstrue things and not realize for all intents and purses strength is the monks primary stat.

However, short of seeing the characters i cant give better advice than this.


Mojorat wrote:

If the fighter and the monk are feeling useless, it is likely a playstyle issue. Sometimes this is a case of poorly designed characters, or poorly designed encounters.

You can make a fighter with 16 str 12 dex 14 con 13 int 12 wis 8 cha use some of your plethora of feats, for skill focus or extra traits to get claws skills. You can finish an AP with him no problem.

In the case of the monk, they are a system mastery class. If you understand the game mechanically and have a good idea of tactics you can manage with one through a whole game. They have a good skill selection and are probly the best martial class int he game when it comes to interacting with their enviroment (ie if it exists they can climb it swim in it jump over it dodge it avoid it)

However, alot of players try to make the monk do things the class wasnt designed to do, or misconstrue things and not realize for all intents and purses strength is the monks primary stat.

However, short of seeing the characters i cant give better advice than this.

The fighter is focused totally around power attacking, and the monk similarly is focused all around combat.

It's hard for me to find ways for these totally combat focused characters to do well outside combat.

They're not even that good at combat.


7 people marked this as a favorite.

See, that's the problem: players that optimize for combat complain that not everything is combat. There may just be a miss-match between the campaign and the players, which has next to nothing to do with the actual character classes.

Dark Archive

You can have fun and roleplay no matter what; which is most of what out-of-combat is. If people are talking, he should talk as well; when it comes to making Diplomacy/Bluffs, have someone else roll and have them be the assist.

When it is sneaking/stealth, monks will obviously Excel, fighters will suck as much as, say, Pallies and Clerics.

There's some confusion if they feel like just because they don't have points in an associated skill they can't roleplay and think and such. What do they feel they are missing?

Sovereign Court

Gave up on Rogue??? My rogue is a combat monster, with skills to boot! I would never downgrade him into a ninja.


Pomkin wrote:
Mojorat wrote:

If the fighter and the monk are feeling useless, it is likely a playstyle issue. Sometimes this is a case of poorly designed characters, or poorly designed encounters.

You can make a fighter with 16 str 12 dex 14 con 13 int 12 wis 8 cha use some of your plethora of feats, for skill focus or extra traits to get claws skills. You can finish an AP with him no problem.

In the case of the monk, they are a system mastery class. If you understand the game mechanically and have a good idea of tactics you can manage with one through a whole game. They have a good skill selection and are probly the best martial class int he game when it comes to interacting with their enviroment (ie if it exists they can climb it swim in it jump over it dodge it avoid it)

However, alot of players try to make the monk do things the class wasnt designed to do, or misconstrue things and not realize for all intents and purses strength is the monks primary stat.

However, short of seeing the characters i cant give better advice than this.

The fighter is focused totally around power attacking, and the monk similarly is focused all around combat.

It's hard for me to find ways for these totally combat focused characters to do well outside combat.

They're not even that good at combat.

What level are they? A fighter who is focused on power attacking providd he can do a full round action should be tops for damage. (In any round the magi doesnt crit/burst damage the fighter should be on top)

But really, if a character is supposedly totally focused on damage but is not good at it then there is likely a character design issue. While fighters have their issues single target damage is not one of them.

Really it looks to me like its a design issue. Id suggest going over their characters to see if they have any room to wiggle and improve. Im sure if you posted them here we could make suggestions (or explain why the fighter is not near the top for damage)

Here are some easy suggestions though. 1 use extra feats for extra traits feat to add some bonuses to skills and make some skills class skills. 2) Skill focus on skills he does have 3) There is a feat called cosmopolitan which in addition to i think making some skills class skills also adds some languages.


3 people marked this as a favorite.
Pomkin wrote:

I've got a group with a druid, a magus, a fighter, a monk, and a rogue.

The monk and fighter are complaining about feeling totally useless for anything out of combat, but I don't know how to rectify this for them.

What could I do for them that the other classes couldn't do better?

Maybe the solution isn't to do something for them that the other classes could do better, but do something for them that the other players couldn't do better. If the players feel that their characters are useless, then they feel useless as players in those situations. Your solution doesn't have to be mechanical in nature.

Give them some side-story intrigue to deal with that caters to their RP style and the way they think about gaming, rather than their character sheets.

Maybe they need a secret between the two of them. A quick non-combat encounter away from the party can set up a long running plot arc that eventually draws the rest of the party in, but puts the fighter and the monk front and center in guiding how it unfolds. It doesn't have to be based around dice either. Focus on the RP at first and see where they they run with it.


If the fighter is of an appropriate race, the "Breadth of Knowledge" feat can really help out. It's unlikely if he tried to optimize for damage, of course, but the option is there.


Well the biggest problem I have with the monk is that they are required to be lawful good. Oh and Samurai/Ninja seems horrible.

You can have fun putting stats into fun things and the rest of the team will hate you when you get to the combat, or you can put stats into utility and combat and you will hate your character and the DM will hate you. Lastly you can screw up completely with a martial.

Of course I'm a nub so what do I know.....

I'm going rogue...


Skullford - Forgive me, I'm nub wrote:

Well the biggest problem I have with the monk is that they are required to be lawful good. Oh and Samurai/Ninja seems horrible.

You can have fun putting stats into fun things and the rest of the team will hate you when you get to the combat, or you can put stats into utility and combat and you will hate your character and the DM will hate you. Lastly you can screw up completely with a martial.

Of course I'm a nub so what do I know.....

I'm going rogue...

Monks only need to be lawful, not lawful good. I've played many monks, and not one of them were ever 'good'. And as far as being lawful goes, my monks usually belong to some monastic order with their own specific laws, that are often contrary to the local laws. So while some activities may be deemed criminal in a given area, the monk is still steadfastly obeying the laws of his order, and maintaining his alignment.

When Paizo was first conceptualizing a ninja, before the playtest, I was convinced that the ninja was going to be based on the monk, not rogue. When the APG was released and a couple specific monk feats appeared (spider step and cloud step) I was convinced this meant monk = ninja. I was wrong of course, but outside of martial arts combat, a monk is about stealth, perception and movement. A monk doesn't need to be in combat to have something to do. And ki powers really extends the monks activities.

I've played ninja and I've played samurai (aside from not being a multiclass nor class dip fan), but would never play a samurai/ninja. Flavor wise an honorable and an honorless class don't belong as a single PC. I'm much more in favor of using an archetype or custom creating archetype for a stealthy samurai, rather than poisoning the waters by mixing it with ninja. Rite Publishing offers 5 different archetypes for samurai on d20pfsrd.com. There's also a very samurai like ranger archetype called the yojimbo on d20pfsrd.com - not that you'd want 2 rangers in your party, but the yojimbo is almost an alternate class as it is nothing like a ranger - flavor wise.

The yojimbo and the samurai archetypes are from Rite Publishing Way of the Samurai supplement for PF.


What is the skill, stat, and feat mix of the fighter and monk?


Damn I can be Neutral, guess I read that wrong! Just fulfilling my name I guess. That makes sense though since I we went to a monk temple(pfs) that traced back to a neutral god.

Thanks!


gamer-printer wrote:
Skullford - Forgive me, I'm nub wrote:
Well the biggest problem I have with the monk is that they are required to be lawful good.
Monks only need to be lawful, not lawful good.

Or they can be Martial Artists, and have any alignment.


Give the fighter 4+int skill ranks per level. Make perception, know hist/nobility/local, and acrobatics class skills.

Give everyone traits and suggest using them to grab class skills.


For Fighter, Rite Publishing has a Yakuza Bushi archetype that loses access to Heavy Armor, but has INT+4 for skill ranks, and is more a DEX based fighter with special movement, intiative and speed than normal fighters. It fits the concept of a non-samurai Ashigaru foot soldier, and in its ronin status fits the support of a yakuza gang - hence the name. This was from Way of the Yakuza supplement from Rite Publishing.

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32

1 person marked this as a favorite.

I find that 2 skill point classes don't really need more skill points once you relaize one vital fact about character building: Skills don't have to be maxed to be useful. Especially with +3 class skill bonuses.

You don't have to max perception.
Generally one rank in each of climb, swim, and ride and you are good to go on a high strength character.
One rank in a Knowledge lets you roll it, and you can get a lot of miscellaneous background info in the DC15-20 range.
You can be decent at non-class skills with a few ranks; the +3 isn't that big of a deal.

It's a little rough at low levels, but past about level 3-4 you can be competent at many things; you just won't be "the best" at any of them.

If you build you character to stink outside of combat, perhaps you should not be surprised when you stink outside of combat.

Silver Crusade

1 person marked this as a favorite.

What exactly are they feeling useless about?

Suggest you don't make all your roleplaying and out of combat scenarios about skill checks. Otherwise players are there simply to make the dice move.

Have NPCs interact with them, flirt, ask their opinion. Make them chat their way through a situation. RPGs are supposed to be a social gathering. Have a drunk mercenary challenge the monk to punch through a block of stone, and if he does the merc will buy him a drink. Some friendly NPC fun when not chopping heads off monsters.

Also consider some metagaming challenges such as riddles and puzzles in game. These are tricky because they draw upon player intuition and not necessarily the mind of the character. The Dungeon Magazine Challenge of Champions are great examples if you can get your hands on them.

Shadow Lodge

i dont know their builds so i cant give you specifics, but just remind them that the fighter can RP without needing to role anything. he wont be able to gather information, sway the minds of NPCs or sneak into locked rooms for that next piece of the puzzle, but he can have fun RP flirting with wenches, boasting about his exploits in combat, and causing an all around good barfight to keep him occupied in down time.

mid adventure he will just need to bite the bullet and understand that without an archetype like tactician or lorewarden he wont have a bunch of extra skills to use for non combat.

the monk should be able to stealth, diplomacy, intimidate, gather information, and be useful atleast some of the time. have the monk strike out and stealth ahead for a scouting mission every now and then.


Skullford - Forgive me, I'm nub wrote:

Damn I can be Neutral, guess I read that wrong! Just fulfilling my name I guess. That makes sense though since I we went to a monk temple(pfs) that traced back to a neutral god.

Thanks!

Or Evil, GM-permitting.


Touc wrote:
...Also consider some metagaming challenges such as riddles and puzzles in game. These are tricky because they draw upon player intuition and not necessarily the mind of the character. The Dungeon Magazine Challenge of Champions are great examples if you can get your hands on them.

Place Hand Here


aboniks wrote:
gamer-printer wrote:
Skullford - Forgive me, I'm nub wrote:
Well the biggest problem I have with the monk is that they are required to be lawful good.
Monks only need to be lawful, not lawful good.
Or they can be Martial Artists, and have any alignment.

Or you can talk to your GM, 'cause I've never met one that didn't think that was a stupid rule.


Touc wrote:

What exactly are they feeling useless about?

Suggest you don't make all your roleplaying and out of combat scenarios about skill checks. Otherwise players are there simply to make the dice move.

Have NPCs interact with them, flirt, ask their opinion. Make them chat their way through a situation. RPGs are supposed to be a social gathering. Have a drunk mercenary challenge the monk to punch through a block of stone, and if he does the merc will buy him a drink. Some friendly NPC fun when not chopping heads off monsters.

Also consider some metagaming challenges such as riddles and puzzles in game. These are tricky because they draw upon player intuition and not necessarily the mind of the character. The Dungeon Magazine Challenge of Champions are great examples if you can get your hands on them.

They are very quiet, and always defer to the other players whenever I try to get them to engage.

I will try puzzles, but those two are very very bad at riddles.


yeah... It takes VERY strong RPers to effectively do much entertaining out of combat with fighters. Monks can be decent out of combat, but with their horrid MAD tendencies, they are kinda boned as well...


Pomkin wrote:

They are very quiet, and always defer to the other players whenever I try to get them to engage.

Maybe give them something they can't step away from, then. Something that would put the other members of the party at risk of [really bad thing] if they found out about it. Set up a situation only those two players can RP a solution, and get them to figure it out together.

If they're backing away from the RP or making decisions in front of the group, it may be easier for them to do it in secret, passing-notes style.

We have a very quiet player in current group as well, and the DM has got some sort of note-passing-dice-rolling subplot brewing these that puts a smile on that players face while the rest of us are RP'ing with the NPC's.

It doesn't need to be about having conversations with NPC's either, if that's where they are hanging up. Just find a way to immerse them in the thought process of the characters themselves.

If you can find a way to help them enjoy the time spent around the table, it doesn't really matter if you can justify it with game mechanics or not.

These two don't sound like their classes are actually the issue.


2 people marked this as a favorite.

Following RAW?

Uh... Reroll as a different class?

In a home-game... House-rule it.

If not, just give them +2 skill points per level and add Heal, Perception and any 2 other skills of the player's choice to the Fighter's list of class skills.

That's about it. Fighters will never be very good out of combat, but they can at least be passable.


aboniks wrote:
Pomkin wrote:

They are very quiet, and always defer to the other players whenever I try to get them to engage.

Maybe give them something they can't step away from, then. Something that would put the other members of the party at risk of [really bad thing] if they found out about it. Set up a situation only those two players can RP a solution, and get them to figure it out together.

If they're backing away from the RP or making decisions in front of the group, it may be easier for them to do it in secret, passing-notes style.

We have a very quiet player in current group as well, and the DM has got some sort of note-passing-dice-rolling subplot brewing these that puts a smile on that players face while the rest of us are RP'ing with the NPC's.

It doesn't need to be about having conversations with NPC's either, if that's where they are hanging up. Just find a way to immerse them in the thought process of the characters themselves.

If you can find a way to help them enjoy the time spent around the table, it doesn't really matter if you can justify it with game mechanics or not.

These two don't sound like their classes are actually the issue.

Well, they have a lot of fun during combat, and whenever they pass a skill check they enjoy it. The fighter in particular loves to pass swim checks, but at this point in the game swimming is not a challenge.

I tried doing a note passing thing, but they clearly did not enjoy it.


It sounds to me like it's more a player issue than a character issue. That is, for whatever reason, they don't feel like they can engage at the same time the group does. Maybe they're shy, or maybe the rest of your group is more heavily into RP than they are.

If they're not comfortable speaking up, have you tried "What are you doing?" rather than "What do you say?" And have you tried to get a sense of what they like outside of combat?

Also, how are their physical skills (Swim, Climb, Stealth, Acrobatics)? If they are halfway decent in those skills, you can change up the RP/combat encounter mix by throwing in some purely physical challenges.


Zhayne wrote:
aboniks wrote:
gamer-printer wrote:
Skullford - Forgive me, I'm nub wrote:
Well the biggest problem I have with the monk is that they are required to be lawful good.
Monks only need to be lawful, not lawful good.
Or they can be Martial Artists, and have any alignment.
Or you can talk to your GM, 'cause I've never met one that didn't think that was a stupid rule.

I found it Meh. A rather uninspired way around raw.


Fighter has no skill set.

Monk has a partial skill set, but stealth and perception do not a scout make. A scout needs to be able to do something. Either understand what he sees so he can give the party useful intel -- which because of the skill requirements is pretty much the domain of the bard -- or he needs to be able to remove obstacles. A monk can say "there are three humanoids about yea tall and they have darkish skin but darkvision doesn't have color," without spending several minutes describing their equipment to the wizard so he can turn it into useful information like "they're orcs and one is a shaman."

If you have a rogue in your party the monk is almost completely redundant. All he's good for is sneaking with the rogue so the rogue has someone to flank with if they get caught and unless they took the stealth synergy teamwork feat he makes getting caught more likely by doing so.

RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16

Mojorat wrote:
get claws skills.

I think I like where this is going...

Monks are pretty good in social situations with Sense Motive.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

For the fighter: Understand that even a two-handed weapon/Power Attacking fighter does not need 19-20 Str at 1st level; 17-18 is often sufficient and allows you to throw a few points at Int. Also, realize that the fighter can afford to use some of their 21 (22 if human) feats on things that are not only useful in combat. For instance, a human fighter with 17 Str (+2 race), 14 Dex, 14 Con, 13 Int, 12 Wis, 8 Cha (20-point buy), Combat Expertise, Fast Learner, and Improved Trip at 1st level (pick up Power Attack at 2nd level) and a hooked lance (reach, trip, x4 crit. multiplier) can do quite well in combat (both damage and hindering opponents), as well as having 5 Skill Ranks per level and +3 hp per level.

For the monk: Understand that early levels tend to suck for most monks (other than the sohei archetype). Your AC will be low (because you can't wear armor) and you have to spread your ability scores around between Dex, Wis, Str, and Con. Also, two of the monk's main class features (fast movement and flurry of blows) can't be used together. Where the monk tends to excel is as an "anti-caster:" high saves, great mobility, and good damage potential/CMB (to impose concentration checks or otherwise disrupt casting); for a tactically-minded player, the monk can do very well. Alternately, the zen archer monk can be one of the best ranged attackers. Outside of combat, the monk has sufficient Skill Ranks to do fairly well, as long as the player doesn't dump Int.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

Doing stuff outside of combat isn't just about skill points...

Have you intertwined the PC's into your world and do individual PC's have unique access to resources due to contacts that only they have?

Like a bartender who is friends with your fighter because he's a regular being used to provide an adventure hook and he'll only give his information to the fighter because they are friends...I don't care what your other party members skills are...he doesn't know you.

If your monk is part of a monastery it is a monastery that specializes in ancient books. Let's say you were hunting a demon and you tell the monk character that there are books in the monastery that have information on said demons. Again, the monk has to vouch for the adventurers because he is the only one with an 'in'.

I wouldn't give the fighter more skill points. It's unnecessary. Is there a knowledge gap in your party? Allow him to re-assign his skill points. Perhaps put points in Dungeoneering or Engineering, class skills for a fighter. If they scout and that scout can get a look at opponents you'll be facing a Dungeoneering check can allow you a hook to provide specific information on tactics and weakness' of those opponents. The engineering skill on the other hand can enable the Fighter to provide a bonus aiding the Rogue disarm traps. Or are they trying to cross a river and need to build a raft to get belonging and steeds across without expending valuable magical resources? Engineering check....(I would have to look at that skill honestly but these usages seem legit).


Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
Static Hamster wrote:
Doing stuff outside of combat isn't just about skill points...

True. But, as others have stated, pure roleplay doesn't require stats or rules, so it doesn't matter which class you're talking about.

If "doing stuff outside of combat" involves system mechanics, then skills are very important in most circumstances. Unless you just Rule 0 it, anyway; which will make the rogue feel useless because it devalues his skill ranks.


The problem is that a social type character will be able to easily get most of the useful contacts while a fighter type gets access to relatively rare/obscure contacts.

Its much more useful to have a contact at the merchants guild than a mercenary company for a adventurer. Unless your DM really enjoys bringing in dozens of NPCs to fight a massive battle with the PCs.

For things like bartender, social characters shine and they should.

Its the fact that every class has skills they are particularly good at because of stats, like how wizards are good at knowledge because int is their primary stat and its also the knowledge stat. A rogue is good at dex related stuff, etc.

Fighters are good at what, climbing and swimming? These are not exactly skills that come up often unless your DM loves running adventures where you have to climb and swim all over the place. The last time our party had to use the swim skill, we had no fighter types or good swimmers and we spent more than half an hour IRL just trying to swim past this part until the DM gave up and handwaved it as us using ropes to get past this part successfully. In a typical party, the fighter would swim through this part and the rest of the party would get stuck, or the wizard would be forced to cast multiple fly spells for the other party members.

You want fighters to be useful out of combat, theres a few things you can do :

-Give them more skill points

-Give them more class skills

-Add stats to some skills, so for example intimidate can function off strength OR charisma. That would instantly give fighters something to do in social situations, like intimidate some guards, as opposed to him trying and failing with his low cha score.


You're lucky. My DM has us climb and swim ALL THE TIME so most of us veteran players with him always have points in those skills.

RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16

2 people marked this as a favorite.
Static Hamster wrote:
You're lucky. My DM has us climb and swim ALL THE TIME so most of us veteran players with him always have points in those skills.

Bah, in my day we had to climb, swim, and balance to get to the adventure, and it was uphill both ways. And Balance was a stand-alone skill that did nothing else.


I have a solution! Have a 300 lbs female dwarf that sings opera fall in love with the fighter, and start following him around!


Is she a bard? Because every fighter wants a personal bard, even if she's not exactly bedroom material.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

When the lights are off, everyone is bedroom material.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

Even that alchemist with 2 vestigial arms, a parasitic twin and a tumor familiar needs love.


Tels wrote:
Even that alchemist with 2 vestigial arms, a parasitic twin and a tumor familiar needs love.

Easy solution here. Improved Familiar: Lyrakien. Awwww yeah. If it's technically your tumor, does that make it masturbation? The world may never know.

1 to 50 of 309 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | next > last >>
Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder First Edition / General Discussion / How to make the fighter and monk in my group feel less useless? All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.