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Ive noted lately a lot of posts of people unsure of things in regards to what they can play/use in Pathfinder society.
Im also unsure if these people have read (or know) that the Guide to Organised play exists as well as the Additional Resources document.
When I first started to play my gm told me that It was mandatory to read/ own a copy of the most current guide to organised play and the Additional Resources document. If I wanted to know if something was legal to use, I needed to check in there before I asked.
Are we getting a generation of players who use herolab now exclusively and rely on that program to tell them if something is legal? What happens if Herolab isnt updated nearly enough to keep in line with Additional resources?
If you are unsure if something is legal, check the guide to organised play. Check Additional resources. Use Ctrl-F in a PDF document to search via word if you need to. (If you dont like having to read through page after page)
Try to do this before you ask here. We have no issue at all answering questions, but some questions should never need to be asked.
Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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It's more that AR is really, really, long, and often it doesn't say if X is legal, it just says all items but Y and Z are illegal, so it is sometimes hard to be sure unless you know what book the thing is from and that it doesn't occur in some other book. Or worse yet: Things on page a-c are legal, things on page d-f are not.
And while it is easy to say "just look it up in the book, the check AR" you may not have the book. In fact, you may be asking the board so you can decide if it is worth buying the book.
Now, personally, I just start by checking Archive of Nethys, which tells me which book to check, sometimes tells me the page number, and gives me a guess about whether or not it is legal.
But there are also times I ask the board a question, because while I know I can look up the question, I also know there is someone on the board who a: has the answer and b: probably has a hotlink to the citation.
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The "because HeroLab says so" logic is definitely getting worse. I see it affect new players as well as veterans.
If d20pfsrd or archivesofnethys put page numbers on their sites for each of their links, it would probably help alleviate a small number of people coming here to ask if X is legal, since they could just cross reference the given page # to the page range in the Additional Resources.
But, you'll always have people who just come here first, who either don't have the time or patience to look elsewhere.
We already have 1) The Additional Resources Document, 2) The Guide to Organized Play, 3) The FAQ, and 4) the Search function.
I doubt there is little more we can do to help bring awareness to the rules, other than place *another* sticky up at the top, in all caps, begging new players to "READ ME".
And then we'd be looking for #6...
RPG Superstar 2013 Top 8
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Archives of Nethys should be adding page numbers for APG and Ultimate Combat in the near future. I know that I supplied the site owner with many page references for material from those books. Using Archives of Nethys I was working on creating reference sheets for my characters to show what I used from Additional Resources as well as the page reference so that I could quickly locate them. I had to look up references for stuff in those two books so I put them in an e-mail and sent them to him (I also ended up having a few hours of free time, so I also got page references for a bunch of other stuff that I don't use).
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Venture-Lieutenant, Florida—Melbourne
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I must admit I am a bit intimidated by the AR also. It's not like I can just look at it and go "yes, that's legal." I have to sort through the books finding the thing I am wondering about and then making sure it isn't in a disallowed section of that book or is in an allowed section but specifically disallowed. It also doesn't help much when, for example, underwater crossbow isn't allowed from one book, but is allowed from another.
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Venture-Lieutenant, Florida—Melbourne
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It also doesn't help much when, for example, underwater crossbow isn't allowed from one book, but is allowed from another.O.O
My Undine crossbow-wielding Cleric would like to know what book allows such an item (since I know the merfolk one from the ARG isn't legal).
It is legal via the Ultimate Equipment Guide. It is not legal via the Advanced Race Guide.
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I have had people at my table try to say herolab was a rule authority over the core.
I have never used the program myself.
And I am also all for havign everyone read the guide to organized play.
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The problem is usability.
Players who first visit the site can't easily and immediately find the information they need, so the questions get raised. It's easy enough for us to know where to find it because we know, but the people asking need this kind of information as intuitively as possible.
Once the information is easy to find and understand, the questions will go away.
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Are we getting a generation of players who use herolab now exclusively and rely on that program to tell them if something is legal? What happens if Herolab isnt updated nearly enough to keep in line with Additional resources?
The children now love luxury. They have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for elders and love chatter in place of exercise.....
More seriously,
1) The guide is a LOT to take at once. Its only 20 something pages but its a very technical 20 pages.
2) The additional resources page isn't very easy to get to if you don't know where it is.
3)) I understand that the additional resources are set up the way they are because they have to be, but they're not very user friendly.
Chances are pretty good you're seeing or hearing about a feat or magic item online these days: there are so many options spread over so many books that i often find I'm googling them even if i own the printed material.
Then I have to see where the source came from.
Find the source on the additional resources, and often see what page its on. Sometimes then there's a little ambiguity because the additional resources or the e reader has the page wrong. The additional resources reads like school delay closings, I know when i started out i read "all traits on page bla bla bla" and didn't see the next line "except...."
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Venture-Lieutenant, Florida—Melbourne
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The children now love luxury. They have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for elders and love chatter in place of exercise.....I thought that was how every generation views the generation that follows them.
Considering he is quoting Socrates, I think that's the point.
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Venture-Lieutenant, Florida—Melbourne
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What happens if Herolab isnt updated nearly enough to keep in line with Additional resources?
What happens when players who don't own Hero Lab don't bother frequently checking for errata and FAQs? I do not deny Hero Lab has errors. But it has been my experience that hand generated characters frequently have a lot more errors than those generated by Hero Lab. Part of this is simply because there are so many rules it is nearly impossible to keep track of all of them and the vast majority of the players are going to go to great effort because they came to PFS to have fun playing an RPG and not to play at being a rules lawyer or accountant. At least with Hero Lab the mistakes are consistent and will not vary from character to character.
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This thread is awful and worthless.
Bringing Herolab into this is silly and just makes you look like you have an ax to grind with a piece of software, rather than being concerned about educating new players and setting a good foundation for them to continue their PFS experience.
I don't know why you think a new player immediately knows that the Guide even exists, or that they understand how to find/use the Additional Resources on this site right out of the gate.
Sorry, but I'm just not coming across players in my area who are fully aware of these resources, yet ignore them in favor of blindly following Herolab and/or creating forum threads to have their questions answered.
Are you seriously getting responses to your posts here on the PFS boards, where by pointing out the Guide and/or the Additional Resources to new players, they are then responding with "Oh sure, I know about those, but I'm just lazy and would rather make a thread or just use herolab?"
Instead of putting together a thinly-veiled Herolab hit piece, just point people toward the resources you think they're completely ignoring.
Hell, you didn't even link to them in your post, OP. This thread is worthless for anyone trying to find information.
Link to the Additional Resources the OP thinks all new players are ignoring.
Link to the free download of the Guide he thinks you all are aware of, yet ignoring.
Fix the problem instead of making holier-than-thou threads that accomplish nothing. Those of you with all those stars next to your names should know how to educate and help new players by now. After all, with all the GMing that those stars stand for, who do you think has been overseeing these players that you are complaining about? Man, I hate when you guys create a thread so bad that I actually have to write coherently in response.
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Considering he is quoting Socrates, I think that's the point.The children now love luxury. They have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for elders and love chatter in place of exercise.....I thought that was how every generation views the generation that follows them.
But he wasn't.
http://quoteinvestigator.com/2010/05/01/misbehaving-children-in-ancient-tim es/
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I actually use Herolab now almost exclusively for all of my characters, but yeah Im concerned that people will like me use Herolab arnt always aware that as items get added/removed from Additional resources this may not be reflected in Herolab.So my post on relying on Herolab to tell me what is legal for PFS play and what is not is accurate. (Herolab is updated a lot so its a pretty moot point)
I do try to educate people in games (and hell am educated by some players on rules I dont know as well as i should). As a GM I dont see copies of the core rulebook with each player, I rarely see a copy of the guide to organised play or additional resources at the table.
But I stand by my original post in regards to people needing a good knowledge of both the guide and additional resources.
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I actually use Herolab now almost exclusively for all of my characters, but yeah Im concerned that people will like me use Herolab arnt always aware that as items get added/removed from Additional resources this may not be reflected in Herolab.So my post on relying on Herolab to tell me what is legal for PFS play and what is not is accurate. (Herolab is updated a lot so its a pretty moot point)
I do try to educate people in games (and hell am educated by some players on rules I dont know as well as i should). As a GM I dont see copies of the core rulebook with each player, I rarely see a copy of the guide to organised play or additional resources at the table.
But I stand by my original post in regards to people needing a good knowledge of both the guide and additional resources.
They only need to review Additional Resources if they use material outside the Core Rulebook.
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This thread is awful and worthless...
Whoa nelly!
I can tell you from experience that there a lot of players who go to Herolab first and have somehow discovered that Herolab exists but don't know about Additional Resources and the PFS guide.
That's the problem Matthew was pointing out, and while we all want to help out, it can be frustrating when it comes up over and over again for something that should be fixable.
We need to help find a solution so that players can get themselves setup for PFS confidently.
Yes we know how to educate and help new players, but imagine if we didn't have to.
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Yes we know how to educate and help new players, but imagine if we didn't have to.
I'd promptly turn you loose on time travel, cold fusion, and faster than light travel.
In a more serious vein...people don't know about those documents, because they're new. They have to be told. And then you sit down and read this massive hunk of paper that is the Guide and are still confused (much better than season 1, I'll admit). And then if you want to create a character with all the cool features, you have to then go read the additional resources document, which is now crazy long and not intuitive and not easy to use.
Of course we'll have to teach new players these things. And even if the guide were shorter (won't happen, and shouldn't), new players would still have questions. And additional resources...that really does need a revisit and clean up. It is rather challenging to use, and some items are flagged as both illegal and legal (see the underwater crossbow).
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Quite a number of newer player in my local area do not seem to know about the Guide to Organised Play and Additional Resources. (This has nothing to do with herolab)
The problem mainly stems from the fact that many are totally new to tabletop RPG and starts off with a pre-gen character. After the game, they learn about onlines sources like the PRD, d20pfsrd and nethys, and pretty much start making characters without realizing that there is an entire guide for them to read and learn more about PFS.
Of course the GMs and fellow players mention the Guide and Additional Resources, but its a "out of sight, out of mind" attitude that some new players have towards PFS. They focus on making characters without checking legality.
There are even a case or two of newer players being surprised that there is a guide.
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To me that is a failure of both the organizers and the gm's then. If you know someone is new and it usually isn't hard to tell, you should be telling them about the additional resources and more importantly the guide to organized play.
At the same time I find it hard to believe that people organizing can't find it. The getting started pages pretty clearly spell out what you need. When I was interested in starting PFS in my local area it was one of the first things I noticed, downloaded and read.
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The onus is on the GM and event organizers to make sure that new players are:
1. Aware of the Guide to Pathfinder Society Organized Play, and where they can get a copy.
2. Aware of the Additional Resources, and where they can get a copy.
3. Aware of the FAQ, and where they can find it.
4. Aware of how to fill out a Chronicle sheet and its purpose.
5. Given a valid PFS ID number and are aware of how to activate it online (if necessary).
6. Aware of how to register their characters online.
7. Aware of how to check their play history online.
8. Aware of Prestige Points, Fame, and how they work.
If you have players in your area that are not up to speed on these topics, and you are a GM or event organizer, then the burden is on you to educate them. Heck if you're a veteran player, part of being a member of the PFS community is sharing information of which all players should be aware but may not be.
This task is never ending. As long as you are involved in the campaign, there will be new players that need someone to guide them and bring them up to speed on the campaign rules and how to find them. Help them so they can, in turn, help others.
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My question is,
If you're getting a new player who is new to PFS, new to Pathfinder, and new to roleplaying, why are we starting them off with anything BUT the CRB and the Guide to Organized Play?
Every time a new player shows up, I hear everyone start suggesting this from additional resource X or that thing there from additional resource Y.
It is perfectly possible to make a viable character from just the CRB, as my Seeker ranger can (very nearly) attest to. So why are we shoving Archives and PRD when we should be pointing to the CRB and the Guide?
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Throwing out some ideas:
- Going to paizo.com gives you a plethora of options that are all sort of unrelated (except to Pathfinder in general). If you can figure out to click the Pathfinder Society logo, you'll likely make working out what to do much easier for yourself, but it's still not clear where to start.
- If a player were to land on something like this with a step by step guide and links similar to what's on Paizo's PFS page, it seems like it would be difficult to not know what to do.
- "Additional Resources" isn't a terribly intuitive name unless you read the description and process exactly what that means. "Additional Resources" in itself is a very catchall generic term. Maybe it should be renamed to something like "Legal Resources" or "PFS Legal Sources".
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I think it would help if instead of tiny little text links in the corner the Guide and Additional Resources shoulf have nice fat graphical buttons that link to them.
There's a lot going on in the web page and I can understand people missing those existing links.
-j
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I made an address label with three 'getting started' things on it. I stick this on the first chronicle of every new player. It has the PFS logo so when I explain the three things, they can recognize it when they later get to a computer and Paizo's page. It starts with my name and email (best way to get a hold of me), but also has my 'Curaigh' on Paizo.com, then it has the two links they need to follow (register your character here, and Guide. Since they are not actual links it is just a reminder to do these two things. If they struggle, they have two ways to get a hold of me.
I created the same document with actual links as an email that I can forward to the player when I get their email. (I ask new players if they want to be on the mailing list.)