If you mix a bomb but don't use it, does it cost you any resources?
...supernatural ability that relies on a melee or ranged touch attack to hit its target...
The supernatural ability does not have to be a ranged touch attack. The supernatural ability can rely on a ranged touch attack to hit its target.
Thrown bombs have a range of 20 feet and use the Throw Splash Weapon special attack
AND
...To attack with a splash weapon, make a ranged touch attack against the target.
This doesn't appear ambiguous to me. A thrown splash weapon relies on a ranged touch attack to hit its target.
Therefore, Alchemist Bombs satisfy the conditions of the Conductive Weapon Ability: a supernatural ability that relies on a ranged touch attack to hit its target.
If you mix a bomb but don't use it, does it cost you any resources?
Slightly ambiguous.
Technically I'm not sure if it's actually possible to make a Bomb without throwing it, since making it and throwing it are part of the same action, even though it says they degrade after a round.
Though if it is possible, the text says " An alchemist can use a number of bombs each day equal to his class level + his Intelligence modifier."
So I'd say no. If he doesn't USE the Bomb, it doesn't count against his limit.
@ Kaito: Just because it goes inert when it's not in possession of the Alchemist does not make it a spell. It doesn't even make it a Spell-Like Ability, especially since there is no (SP) label on it. There's an (SU) label on it. It's simply the mechanic of the ability in question.
Wow, that in no way addresses what I said in response to your statement. I never said it was a spell or an SLA. It is very clearly a supernatural ability. I have explained that to you at great lengths. I said it is more like a spell then like a dagger because you seem to think dagger and magical energy bomb are the same thing.
Also, don't make up terms. If Paizo doesn't use them, then rules questions don't need to bother with them.
Thirdly, a bomb is essentially a glob of supernatural energy created by the Alchemist. How else do you explain why it goes inert in the hands of a non-Alchemist?
And you're claiming that because it has mechanics different from any other object that it's not an object? It's the Flame Blade Spell all over again; a specific weapon is called out when it is cast, it has many mechanics different from your conventional weapons, but because of those differences it's not a weapon, it's a Touch Attack? Even though it's called out as a specific melee weapon that makes Melee Touch Attacks instead of regular Melee Attacks?
Then what do you propose I call it then? As far as I'm concerned, as written, it's not an actual Touch Attack. You make a Touch Attack with it, but actual Touch Attacks don't include the process of drawing components and creating the object needed to make the Touch Attack in the first place. You simply get in the respective range and make an attack roll against the target's Touch AC. None of that other stuff is needed, and separate from the actual Touch Attack being made.
Is it now? Let's reread what it says:
In addition to magical extracts, alchemists are adept at swiftly mixing various volatile chemicals and infusing them with their magical reserves to create powerful bombs that they can hurl at their enemies. An alchemist can use a number of bombs each day equal to his class level + his Intelligence modifier. Bombs are unstable, and if not used in the round they are created, they degrade and become inert—their method of creation prevents large volumes of explosive material from being created and stored. In order to create a bomb, the alchemist must use a small vial containing an ounce of liquid catalyst—the alchemist can create this liquid catalyst from small amounts of chemicals from an alchemy lab[b], and [b]these supplies can be readily refilled in the same manner as a spellcaster’s component pouch. Most alchemists create a number of catalyst vials at the start of the day equal to the total number of bombs they can create in that day—once created, a catalyst vial remains usable by the alchemist for years.
So let's take a look; with my bolded parts, it takes various volatile chemicals, their own magical reserves, an alchemy lab, and a small vial containing an ounce of liquid catalyst.
Needless to say, it seems they're more in-line with the appearance of a Molotov Cocktail, for example, than "a glob of energy," since a vial refers to one you can acquire from an alchemy lab, the most common of which are glass.
It also says that their method of creation cannot be done in bulk, limited to the round in which they infuse their magical reserves, and have a daily reset.
The obvious argument is because the non-Alchemist doesn't have the magical reserves needed to activate the Bomb. It's like a modern-world bomb that can only be turned off with the voice activation and finger print of the guy who made and authorized the creation of the bomb.
@ Rynjin: Compare the Arcane Bolt ability to both the Bomb and the Flame Blade; notice the differences between these 3 subjects? The Arcane Bolt says "you can unleash a ray of magic force," implying it's not an object, the Flame Blade says "you wield this blade-like beam as if it were a scimitar," implying that it functions as if it were a specific manufactured weapon, a type of object. The Bomb then says "Drawing the components of, creating, and throwing a bomb..." implies that components are required to make a bomb, the bomb must be created, and is designed to be thrown. On top of which, these all are characteristics of being a Manufactured Weapon; that is, all Manufactured Weapons require components, creation, and are designed to a specific method of combat. In this case, ranged.
By your logic, these all work with the Conductive Property. The Arcane Bolt does, because it doesn't require preparation, nor is it an object. The Flame Blade does not, because it effect is called out as its own specific weapon, of which assimilates to a manufactured weapon, which cannot be applied to a Conductive Weapon. The Bomb doesn't work because it requires components to be drawn, creation to be accomplished, at the very least implying that it's an object upon creation, and even while originating from a Supernatural abilily, doesn't supersede its precedence of being an object.
And you're claiming that because it has mechanics different from any other object that it's not an object?
Ha!
@ Durngrun Stonebreaker
From what I can tell, bombs are weapons (much like rays, etc.) and they deal energy (fire) damage.
It's why that is relevant that I don't understand. Does it become ineligible if it's a weapon, or something?
Darksol seems to think so, but like Davick before him he has yet to provide any rules text explaining why a Su touch attack ability is ineligible to be used with a weapon that lets you use Su touch attack abilities through it.
Darksol seems to think so, but like Davick before him he has yet to provide any rules text explaining why a Su touch attack ability is ineligible to be used with a weapon that lets you use Su touch attack abilities through it.It's why that is relevant that I don't understand. Does it become ineligible if it's a weapon, or something?
Because the SU (Bomb) or SP (Flame Blade) in question creates an object, not make a Touch Attack. The factor that you can create and throw the bomb as a Standard Action is mechanically hardly different from drawing a thrown weapon with the Quick Draw feat and throwing it. You perform Touch Attacks with the item you create/summon; That's the effect of the SU or SP. Are you saying Conductive should allow you to automatically deal damage with object creation as the only effect? Quite a stretch from the listed RAW if I say so myself.
Making Touch Attacks with the object you create/summon isn't the same as doing it from your own innate ability, or even through the weapon, because you're making the Touch Attacks with an object other than the Conductive Weapon property.
Referencing Arcane Bolt, a Spell-Like Ability you simply "unleash a ray of magic force," there is no individual object you are using to execute this ability, it is you, the character, that is doing it. This should be eligible by Conductive Weapons, assuming it is a Ranged Conductive Weapon (as it is a Ranged Touch attack).
Referencing Flame Blade, which can be a Spell-Like Ability, "A 3-foot-long, blazing beam of red-hot fire springs forth from your hand. You wield this blade-like beam as if it were a scimitar. Attacks with the flame blade are melee touch attacks," says that the attacks made with the Flame Blade (which is referenced to be an actual subject) are melee touch attacks. The factor that it refers to attacks you make with the subject means that the ability to make these touch attacks comes from an object separate from the Conductive Weapon, and therefore makes it not eligible. The spell effect is an object, not a Touch Attack.
Referencing Bombs, a Supernatural Ability, "In addition to magical extracts, alchemists are adept at swiftly mixing various volatile chemicals and infusing them with their magical reserves to create powerful bombs that they can hurl at their enemies," says that you are using objects from an alchemy lab (it's in there, but I'd rather not reference the whole thing) to create an object (i.e. the bomb) you can throw at your enemies. Since it is its own object that you attack with and deals its set damage, even created as a Supernatural Ability to last for less than 1 round, it shouldn't be eligible since it's an object, not a Touch Attack. You make a Touch Attack with it, but it's not a Touch Attack in and of itself.
You make a Touch Attack with it, but it's not a Touch Attack in and of itself.Of course it's not a touch attack itself...nothing is. A touch attack is a delivery method, nothing more. A ray is not a touch attack. You make a touch attack with it, but it's not a touch attack. Shocking grasp is not a touch attack, but you can make a touch attack with it.
I don't understand how a bomb being a weapon invalidates it's use for the conductive property.
A ray is a weapon that takes just as long to unleash (standard action), yet no one bats an eye. A bomb that takes a standard action (and can in fact be less, as per rapid bombs discovery) causes everyone to lose their minds!
Even the fact that it requires drawing pre-existing material components is fairly null and void. Just look at the Natural Spell feat. Sure, that's just for druids, but it sets a mechanical precedence.
I've seen lots of things in this thread and the previous that indicate strongly that bombs work with the conductive property as per RAW.
I've seen a bit of evidence that they might not work RAI, but no more than the evidence that the DO work within RAI.
The thing is the mere activation or usage of the Bomb ability does not net the Touch Attack. Its for this same exact reason that there is a "Free Action to Attack as part of Casting the Spell" clause for Touch Spells and the like, of which cannot be applied to these same effects.
With Arcane Bolt, activating the ability equates to Make a Touch Attack against the target as a Standard Action. No other language is needed, since it fulfills the requirements for the Conductive Property.
With Flame Blade, activating the ability equates to Make a 'Fire Scimitar' that targets Touch AC with its melee attacks. There is specific language calling out that this functions as a specific Manufactured Weapon, meaning that, even with the origins from a Spell-Like Ability, it cannot be applicable, since allowing you to utilize this from a Conductive Weapon hit only summons you the sword, not make an extra attack with an already-created (or even non-existing) sword.
With Bomb, activating the ability equates to Make a [Supernatural] Bomb by drawing components and spending a small effort and magical reserve to compile them. There is language that easily implies it is an object being created by the Alchemist to be thrown at a target. If we subtracted the clause of it being able to be thrown as part of the Standard Action, the ability would cease to function its written purpose since it is an Attack Action to throw the created Bomb, hence why that clause is listed; the intent is that the Alchemist can create and throw a Bomb in the same round.
My point is that abilities like Arcane Bolt lacks the excess language that the other 2 subjects possess. You don't need to summon or create anything, and you don't need to use those subjects that you have summoned/created to perform the Touch Attack, activating the ability itself enables the Touch Attack effect in the case of Arcane Bolt.
That is otherwise not the case with the other 2, and that is what I am saying denies it being able to work. The abilities simply allow you to create the object. That's all it does. That's why there is language stating you are able to draw components, create the bomb, and throw it in a single Standard Action. That's why there is language stating you make Melee Touch Attacks with the weapon you created.
So the fact that you get a free action to attack with a spell and the fact that you get a free action to attack with the bomb makes them different?
If you mix a bomb but don't use it, does it cost you any resources?Slightly ambiguous.
Technically I'm not sure if it's actually possible to make a Bomb without throwing it, since making it and throwing it are part of the same action, even though it says they degrade after a round.
Though if it is possible, the text says " An alchemist can use a number of bombs each day equal to his class level + his Intelligence modifier."
So I'd say no. If he doesn't USE the Bomb, it doesn't count against his limit.
Is it possible to prepare components and not cast a spell? They're part of the same action. Components aren't a spell though are they?
So the fact that you get a free action to attack with a spell and the fact that you get a free action to attack with the bomb makes them different?
First off, show me where in the Bomb (SU) the exact text tells you that you attack with the bomb upon creation as a Free Action. When you come to realize that you cannot, then you'll understand the difference in phrasing and language present in the Bomb (SU) ability, and what that difference entails.
Second off, the Conductive property only works with Supernatural and Spell-Like Abilities. Spells aren't Spell-Like or Supernatural Abilities, so Spells don't apply. A Flame Blade (SP), on the other hand, does.
Third off, you're saying that if I have an at-will Flame Blade (SP) with a Conductive Weapon that I get to deal Flame Blade damage 1/round whenever I successfully hit with a Conductive Weapon?
Just because the ability allows you to summon/create an object as an effect of the SU/SP ability doesn't really do much.
But why don't we go ahead and say it works. So each time I hit with a Conductive Weapon, I can either summon a Flame Blade to attack with or create a Bomb to throw at people. So really, it doesn't do a thing, even if you allow it for them.
Is it possible to prepare components and not cast a spell? They're part of the same action. Components aren't a spell though are they?
No, it's not (as far as I kn0w).
And no, components are not a spell, what happens after you make teh components go *poof* is the spell.
Much like how after you mix a catalyst with your magical energy you get the final product, a Bomb.
Because the SU (Bomb) or SP (Flame Blade) in question creates an object, not make a Touch Attack.
They make an object that is a touch attack.
Acid Arrow also makes an object that is a touch attack.
The touch attack happens with the attack roll you make with the ability in question.
The factor that you can create and throw the bomb as a Standard Action is mechanically hardly different from drawing a thrown weapon with the Quick Draw feat and throwing it.
I'd say it's very different.
A Quick Drawn thrown weapon is an actual weapon, not a Su or Sp ability.
You perform Touch Attacks with the item you create/summon; That's the effect of the SU or SP.
Yes. It is a touch attack. Glad we're on the same page now.
Are you saying Conductive should allow you to automatically deal damage with object creation as the only effect? Quite a stretch from the listed RAW if I say so myself.
What do you mean "object creation as the only effect"? Not very clear what you mean here.
If the "object" created is a Su or Sp ability that makes a touch attack, it works.
If it is not (like Minor Creation, which makes explicitly non-magical material), then no, it won't work.
Making Touch Attacks with the object you create/summon isn't the same as doing it from your own innate ability, or even through the weapon, because you're making the Touch Attacks with an object other than the Conductive Weapon property.
But it's not an object. It's an ability. That's why it's listed as "Bombs (Su)" and lists the creation and throwing as the same action.
Referencing Arcane Bolt, a Spell-Like Ability you simply "unleash a ray of magic force," there is no individual object you are using to execute this ability, it is you, the character, that is doing it. This should be eligible by Conductive Weapons, assuming it is a Ranged Conductive Weapon (as it is a Ranged Touch attack).
And it is you, the character, that is creating this Bomb or flaming beam of light effect that makes a touch attack.
I really don't see the distinction. Both are generated by the character. Neither are actually objects, just extensions of the ability.
Referencing Flame Blade, which can be a Spell-Like Ability, "A 3-foot-long, blazing beam of red-hot fire springs forth from your hand. You wield this blade-like beam as if it were a scimitar. Attacks with the flame blade are melee touch attacks," says that the attacks made with the Flame Blade (which is referenced to be an actual subject) are melee touch attacks. The factor that it refers to attacks you make with the subject means that the ability to make these touch attacks comes from an object separate from the Conductive Weapon, and therefore makes it not eligible. The spell effect is an object, not a Touch Attack.
That's quite a leap.
Also, with all this object talk, have you ever thought about how this interacts with so many rules pertaining to objects?
What is a Flame Blade (or Bomb)'s Hardness? HP? Substance? Strength DC to burst?
Can you use Possess Object, Locate Object, Teleport Object, Polymorph any Object, etc. on it?
Your classifying it as an object raises too many questions. None of these things are defined.
Compare/contrast a spell that actually DOES create an object, like Wall of Stone, which defines ALL of these things (hardness, thickness allowing you to determine HP, the substance, strength DC to burst, and actually defines it as an object: "The wall cannot be conjured so that it occupies the same space as a creature or another object.").
My interpretation is simpler and much more based in what the rules actually SAY than extrapolation.
Referencing Bombs, a Supernatural Ability, "In addition to magical extracts, alchemists are adept at swiftly mixing various volatile chemicals and infusing them with their magical reserves to create powerful bombs that they can hurl at their enemies," says that you are using objects from an alchemy lab (it's in there, but I'd rather not reference the whole thing) to create an object (i.e. the bomb) you can throw at your enemies. Since it is its own object that you attack with and deals its set damage, even created as a Supernatural Ability to last for less than 1 round, it shouldn't be eligible since it's an object, not a Touch Attack. You make a Touch Attack with it, but it's not a Touch Attack in and of itself.
An Alchemy Lab is as nebulously defined as a Spell Component Pouch.
Look at the text on it: "An alchemist with an alchemy crafting kit is assumed to have all the material components needed for his extracts, mutagens, and bombs, except for those components that have a specific cost."
Functionally identical to a Spell Component Pouch. Which are called out as essentially being "Shroedinger's Bag", containing anything and everything the caster might need when he needs it.
None of the items within are defined, because none of them are actually ITEMS, merely plot devices (essentially). Only the bag itself is an item.
I might as well give up arguing this; not because I realize I'm wrong, but because we've reached an impasse and I'm not going to get anywhere by arguing the same points over and over again.
If you can apparently make a magical fiergy energy sword (that isn't even summoned as a weapon to attack with in the first place, the method it was designed to be used as,) deal the damage its supposed to deal upon a standard attack, with another weapon via a property, then I must be playing a completely different game, in which case good luck to you.
Why is Flame Blade such a far-fetched notion when Flaming swords aren't?
It works by RAW, and makes sense thematically as well if you've seen a lot of media.
Have you ever watched Yu Yu Hakusho? Kuwabara makes an energy sword as his main attack.
At one point, he gets a sword hilt, meant to amplify his power.
He runs his energy through the hilt, and it pops out his energy sword (beefed up, of course).
Anime not your speed?
Ever read Wheel of Time? Remember Rand's super flame sword thing he used?
Remember how he sometimes projected it from his actual sword to increase cutting power when he needed it?
Same deal here.
Guy swings Conductive sword. Guy has a magical ability to create a lightsaber.
Guy channels lightsaber energy through his real sword, making it better.
Enemy goes "Ouch!"
This is a pretty darn common fantasy trope.
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For all those arguing that the fact that the Bomb (Su) creates a physical object or weapon, I want to point out that at best you're arguing RAI, not RAW. Why? RAW, conductive doesn't say anything about being unable to work with a physical object. It has two requirements: First, that it be a supernatural or spell-like ability; and second, that it use a touch or ranged touch attack. Nowhere in the property does it say, "Conductive can't be used with a supernatural or spell-like ability that creates a weapon or object, even if the attack is still a touch or ranged attack."
As Rynjin points out, there are lots of examples in fantasy and elsewhere that bear out the idea of infusing energy normally meant for a physical object into another physical object. So for everyone who seems so sure that it would be RAI to disqualify supernatural or spell-likes that create physical objects from functioning with Conductive - well, it's disputable.
Let me ask this: If the Alchemist's Bomb ability didn't mention catalysts at all, but instead just said that the Bomb worked similarly to Gambit's explosive card ability (I doubt anyone is unfamiliar with him, but just in case), would anyone argue against it working with Conductive? I doubt it.
Then I'd argue that because of the line that says that the Alchemist infuses the bomb's components with his magical energy, it is in fact the energy that is the primary factor here. The 'catalysts' are just a focus (to use a term from White Wolf's Mage) for his magical energy. If a non-Alchemist went over to his body and grabbed up the exact same vials that the Alchemist used, mixed them together, and tossed them, nothing would happen. So yes, they're a physical item just like a component and they're normally required to use the ability, but as shown with the Explosive Missile property it's the Alchemist's energy that is really resulting in the damage.
Let me ask this: If the Alchemist's Bomb ability didn't mention catalysts at all, but instead just said that the Bomb worked similarly to Gambit's explosive card ability (I doubt anyone is unfamiliar with him, but just in case), would anyone argue against it working with Conductive? I doubt it.
No of course not; because that removes one of the major problems. The physical non-energy part of the bomb.
I even talked to my GM about this ability. He wouldn't allow Conductive to work on bombs. So...even if it should it won't at my table.
Personally I think RAW it works; but I believe that the devs if they ever get around to looking at this will make the Bombs ability an exception and that it doesn't work RAI.
Alchemist's already have a similar ability but can only make one attack with it.
If Conductive did work with it it would allow the Alchemist to get a full attack instead of one attack at that range. I believe that's what they will try to nerf.
Let me ask this: If the Alchemist's Bomb ability didn't mention catalysts at all, but instead just said that the Bomb worked similarly to Gambit's explosive card ability (I doubt anyone is unfamiliar with him, but just in case), would anyone argue against it working with Conductive? I doubt it.No of course not; because that removes one of the major problems. The physical non-energy part of the bomb.
As my follow-up pointed out, the physical part seems to be mostly irrelevant. Effectively, the vials of catalyst seem to be nothing but a conduit for the energy that actually does the damage, as evidenced by the Explosive Missile property.
Alchemist's already have a similar ability but can only make one attack with it.
If Conductive did work with it it would allow the Alchemist to get a full attack instead of one attack at that range. I believe that's what they will try to nerf.
Conductive states it can only be used on one attack per round:
A conductive weapon is able to channel the energy of a spell-like or supernatural ability that relies on a melee or ranged touch attack to hit its target (such as from a cleric's domain granted power, sorcerer's bloodline power, oracle's mystery revelation, or wizard's arcane school power). When the wielder makes a successful attack of the appropriate type, he may choose to expend two uses of his magical ability to channel it through the weapon to the struck opponent, who takes the effects of the weapon attack and the special ability. (If the wielder has unlimited uses of a special ability, he may channel through the weapon every round.) For example, a paladin who strikes an undead opponent with her conductive greatsword can expend two uses of lay on hands ability (a supernatural melee touch attack) to deal greatsword damage and damage from one use of her lay on hands. This weapon property can only be used once per round, and only works with magical abilities of the same type as the weapon (melee or ranged).
So the discovery is far more potent: It requires only one use of your Bomb ability, and it can be used on any ranged weapon in which you're proficient (rather than only being usable on the one specific ranged weapon on which you've placed the Conductive enhancement).
The SP would make the blade---it doesn't give you a free hit (like say shocking grasp). That spell/sp isn't valid for the conductive property in the first place. It makes a blade; which you then use. the blade that you swing and hit with later isn't the ability it's made by that ability.
Conductive doesn't state that it requires you to get a free hit from the ability - just that the ability uses a touch or ranged touch attack. A Flame Blade, once it's created, uses a melee touch attack.
I've had this discussion before and I'm still of the mind that the effect of the spell and the spell itself are equivalent. If someone casts Flame Blade and then you dispel it, the sword goes away - thus, the sword is the spell for all practical purposes.
I'm a bit confused why flame sword came up.
Doesn't that spell *and by extension a SP version, simply make a scimatar like flaming blade? That isn't valid in the first place.. The SP would make the blade---it doesn't give you a free hit (like say shocking grasp). That spell/sp isn't valid for the conductive property in the first place. It makes a blade; which you then use. the blade that you swing and hit with later isn't the ability it's made by that ability.the thing that makes the bomb work is energy. If it bothers you, theres nothing to say he isn't pouring the vial on the weapon-which absorbs the energy and then you fire. RAW it is completely valid, RAI I don't see why it wouldn't be.
Lastly that property and the alchemist came out in the same book. So I would think if they were concerned or worried they would have made a note considering it was all being reviewed then (and has been out a very long time with no issue really)
On a note about the components.. It kind of makes me think of/wish an alchemist had something like a weak cantrip like splash weapon they could keep using after bombs are out. Just not valid for discoveries etc.
Except that's exactly how it's written. Yet according to the side arguing Bombs, it works; their logic says you can have a flaming sword that's not even conjured deal its damage via a Conductive Weapon making a successful hit, assuming you have a Flame Blade (SP).
It's the same exact predicament with the Bomb feature. I'll paraphrase the bolded part to explain my argument:
It makes a bomb; which you then use. The bomb that you throw and hit with later isn't the ability, it's merely made by that ability.
As for Devil's Advocate, they say you don't need hands or materials to compile and create the Bomb, even though the ability calls out for materials to be drawn in order for the bomb to be created. It also doesn't matter if it's an object or manufactured weapon or whatever.
I'm surprised that they haven't even gone so far as to say that since Spells are Spell-Like, Spells should be considered Spell-Like Abilities and therefore also eligible for the Conductive Weapon to use with. But apparently that draws a line...
Because Spell-Like Abilities are clearly defined within the rules.
"Manufactured Objects" and some kind of distinction between "Touch attacks" and "Touch attacks" and "Clearly the intent is not for all Su/Sp touch attacks to work (as the ability says) it is something else entirely because...I feel like it" are not.
So the discovery is far more potent: It requires only one use of your Bomb ability, and it can be used on any ranged weapon in which you're proficient (rather than only being usable on the one specific ranged weapon on which you've placed the Conductive enhancement).
Oh.
I didn't see that part.
Then why have we talked about this for two pages? Take the better ability.
So the discovery is far more potent: It requires only one use of your Bomb ability, and it can be used on any ranged weapon in which you're proficient (rather than only being usable on the one specific ranged weapon on which you've placed the Conductive enhancement).Oh.
I didn't see that part.
Then why have we talked about this for two pages? Take the better ability.
You can always earn more gold. Your discoveries are limited.
As for Devil's Advocate, they say you don't need hands or materials to compile and create the Bomb, even though the ability calls out for materials to be drawn in order for the bomb to be created. It also doesn't matter if it's an object or manufactured weapon or whatever.
You obviously don't need them, since the Explosive Missile discovery exists. Just like you don't need a free hand in order to use Lay on Hands through a Conductive greatsword; normally you need a hand free to touch the foe, but the example even says you're using a greatsword (which means both your hands are occupied in wielding the weapon).
Finally I'll say again: You're arguing RAI, not RAW, until such a time as you can quote the portion of the Conductive ability that mentions barring objects or manufactured weapons. Ss for the RAI argument, most of these abilities deal with manipulating energy in one way or another, so why is it so outlandish to assume that you're funneling that energy through the weapon rather than into the normal form that the energy would take?
It makes a bomb; which you then use. The bomb that you throw and hit with later isn't the ability, it's merely made by that ability.
And that argument is flawed, because the fact is that if you cast Flame Blade, and then I cast dispel on you, that blade disappears. Or for our hypothetical Flame Blade (Sp), if you walk into an anti-magic field carrying it while carrying your fiery scimitar, the blade disappears. Why? Because the blade is the Sp, and the Sp just got cancelled.
So the fact that you get a free action to attack with a spell and the fact that you get a free action to attack with the bomb makes them different?First off, show me where in the Bomb (SU) the exact text tells you that you attack with the bomb upon creation as a Free Action. When you come to realize that you cannot, then you'll understand the difference in phrasing and language present in the Bomb (SU) ability, and what that difference entails.
It's a standard action to use a SLA with a touch attack and attack with it. It's a standard action to make a bomb and attack with it. Still not seeing much difference.
Second off, the Conductive property only works with Supernatural and Spell-Like Abilities. Spells aren't Spell-Like or Supernatural Abilities, so Spells don't apply. A Flame Blade (SP), on the other hand, does.
Bombs are Supernatural.
Third off, you're saying that if I have an at-will Flame Blade (SP) with a Conductive Weapon that I get to deal Flame Blade damage 1/round whenever I successfully hit with a Conductive Weapon?
Just because the ability allows you to summon/create an object as an effect of the SU/SP ability doesn't really do much.
But why don't we go ahead and say it works. So each time I hit with a Conductive Weapon, I can either summon a Flame Blade to attack with or create a Bomb to throw at people. So really, it doesn't do a thing, even if you allow it for them.
So because you don't like the way a Conductive weapon would work with an ability you made up, you don't think it would work with bombs?
And that argument is flawed, because the fact is that if you cast Flame Blade, and then I cast dispel on you, that blade disappears. Or for our hypothetical Flame Blade (Sp), if you walk into an anti-magic field carrying it while carrying your fiery scimitar, the blade disappears. Why? Because the blade is the Sp, and the Sp just got cancelled.
The fact is if you cast Summon Monster and then I cast dispel on the monster, the monster disappears. If it walks into an anti-magic field it disappears. Why? Because the monster is the Spell.... Wait a minute.....
The fact is if you cast Summon Monster and then I cast dispel on the monster, the monster disappears. If it walks into an anti-magic field it disappears. Why? Because the monster is the Spell.... Wait a minute.....
And that argument is flawed, because the fact is that if you cast Flame Blade, and then I cast dispel on you, that blade disappears. Or for our hypothetical Flame Blade (Sp), if you walk into an anti-magic field carrying it while carrying your fiery scimitar, the blade disappears. Why? Because the blade is the Sp, and the Sp just got cancelled.
"Wait a minute" what? Yes - the monster is a part of the spell. That's why it disappears. If it weren't part of the spell, dispel and anti-magic field would have no effect on it.
You seem to act like that's some big deal, but the reason the monster vanishes is because the spell's effect was cancelled. So if you're attempting to make a sarcastic point, you just really seem to be reinforcing the way that I see the rules as functioning.
"Wait a minute" what? Yes - the monster is a part of the spell. That's why it disappears. You seem to act like that's some big deal, but the reason the monster vanishes is because the spell's effect was cancelled. So if you're attempting to make a sarcastic point, you just really seem to be reinforcing the way that I see the rules as functioning.The fact is if you cast Summon Monster and then I cast dispel on the monster, the monster disappears. If it walks into an anti-magic field it disappears. Why? Because the monster is the Spell.... Wait a minute.....
And that argument is flawed, because the fact is that if you cast Flame Blade, and then I cast dispel on you, that blade disappears. Or for our hypothetical Flame Blade (Sp), if you walk into an anti-magic field carrying it while carrying your fiery scimitar, the blade disappears. Why? Because the blade is the Sp, and the Sp just got cancelled.
Well then that explains why you are wrong. If you think the monster summoned by summon monster is the spell and not an effect of the spell, you have a flawed view of the rules. The creature, just like the blade, is the effect of the spell, not the spell (that's why it's under the effect header and not... somewhere else). That you can dispel it, or suppress the effect doesn't mean the effect is the spell.
It's the same as, even though you spawned them, you are not your children. Their existence is dependent on yours, temporally speaking, but they are not you. They are the effect that your ability to reproduce causes, but they are not the ability to reproduce. They are a separate but related (literally) thing. In fact, if you were a supernatural being and/or had the ability to reproduce supernaturally, your children would be supernatural. But they would not be a supernatural ability.
Abilities like grave touch don't talk about creating a thing and using it, they talk about doing. Attacking with grave touch is the ability with grave touch. Attacking with a bomb is a benefit due to possession of an item which has weapon properties which happen to target touch AC you acquired from the ability to make them, but it is not the ability.
EDIT: Oh also, does that mean if I had Summon Monster as an SLA and I could summon something that made touch attacks I could channel it through a conductive weapon?
I'll pop in quick just to state that Davick spelled out essentially what I was trying to say (but apparently was misguided, since people believe that an ability's effect is the same as the actions one can take when the option becomes available to them by obtaining the ability's effect).
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...supernatural ability that relies on a melee or ranged touch attack to hit its target...
The supernatural ability does not have to be a ranged touch attack. The supernatural ability can rely on a ranged touch attack to hit its target.
Thrown bombs have a range of 20 feet and use the Throw Splash Weapon special attack
AND
...To attack with a splash weapon, make a ranged touch attack against the target.
This doesn't appear ambiguous to me. A thrown splash weapon relies on a ranged touch attack to hit its target.
Therefore, Alchemist Bombs satisfy the conditions of the Conductive Weapon Ability: a supernatural ability that relies on a ranged touch attack to hit its target.
As far as bombs...eh i can see one side. A bomb doesnt do anything unless its mixed with componenents and degrades when that round is ended.
SU range attacks can be held for as long as the caster can hold it so thats one difference right there. Dont have access but isnt their SU range attacks that use components? If so then if they need a component to be used or activated and are eligble for conductive then by that same reasoning bombs should as well.
Question is, IF bombs do qualify, they can only be used in the round they activated correct?
Also i am of the belief IF u create a bomb but dont use it, i believe it does count towards using up a bomb that day. Reason being is i see it as someone casting a spell but holding it then canceling to cast another spell. That spell slot is used up even though u didnt actually cast it/use it.
EDIT: Oh also, does that mean if I had Summon Monster as an SLA and I could summon something that made touch attacks I could channel it through a conductive weapon?
No, because Summon Monster creates an actual creature with a number of different abilities and its own mind.
Likewise, many Creation spells won't work because they create actual objects (and are defined as objects).
Bombs and Flame Blade are not this.
EDIT: Oh also, does that mean if I had Summon Monster as an SLA and I could summon something that made touch attacks I could channel it through a conductive weapon?No, because Summon Monster creates an actual creature with a number of different abilities and its own mind.
Likewise, many Creation spells won't work because they create actual objects (and are defined as objects).
Bombs and Flame Blade are not this.
According to you, it apparently doesn't matter if it's an object, since you stated yourself that it is not a quantification to deny its usability with the Conductive property. By this extension, an Animated Object creature, for example, is not an object, and therefore also not quantified to deny its usability with the Conductive property.
So if they are not objects, then what are they? Am I drawing components for nothing? Am I using these same components to create nothing? Am I holding nothing in my hand and just waving my hand around, throwing (or swinging) nothing? Because according to you, I apparently am.
It is not an object in game terms. Neither follows ANY of the rules for objects, because none of the information is given.
They are a Su ability and a Spell Effect respectively.
You may note Flame Blade is not a Conjuration spell, it is Evocation. It doesn't summon or create anything.
What you are holding is pure energy, not an object. It is basically a Scorching Ray that you can whack people with.
It is "something" in the words of the Evocation description, but it is not an object.
Likewise Bombs.
Bombs exist, but they are not an object. They're their own thing, completely undefined in the details of its existence besides the fact that it involves a catalyst of some sort and minor bits of magical energy.
Alright, I will concede with the Flame Blade for now, since that's a much more valid explanation than "It's not spelled out as an object, so it's not an object." (It might seem ironic, but you showing that it's simply a manipulation of energy is a much more believable interpretation to me. The biggest part that threw me off on it was that it says that it is considered a scimitar, which is an actual object.) Well played.
And yet I already listed previously that it doesn't just involve a catalyst and an Alchemist's magical reserves.
In order to create a bomb, the alchemist must use a small vial containing an ounce of liquid catalyst—the alchemist can create this liquid catalyst from small amounts of chemicals from an alchemy lab, and these supplies can be readily refilled in the same manner as a spellcaster’s component pouch.
The bolded part seems to disagree with your consensus that it only involves "a catalyst of some sort and minor bits of magical energy."
That catalyst doesn't just float there waiting for you to do something with it; it's in a small, one ounce vial.
I don't think it's actually the same vial, mostly because of the cost involved.
The Alchemy Lab Crafting Kit is 25 gp. Something fairly low in any case.
Each vial costs 1 gp.
The kit contains an infinite reserve of them however. Just seems kinda weird.
And even then...what happens to it afterwards?
The catalyst is in a 1 ounce vial, but what happens to it when you add the magical energy to it? It becomes a Bomb, that much is clear, bit is the Bomb still in the vial? Is it in something else? Does it transmogrify into a glob of energy?
It's...odd to say the least, and ill defined enough that it makes me think it was left ambiguous on purpose so the rules on things like this wouldn't seem strange in some people's heads.
But to tie it back to what I was asking you to begin with however many posts ago...so what?
Even if it is technically an object, how does that change anything?
It's still a Su ability that is a ranged touch attack, it works regardless of object status or not.
I'm willing to concede for now it may be an object (or at least COMES from an object), since the vial in the book is the closest thing we have, but so what?
The object is the ability and the ability is the object.
I don't think it's actually the same vial, mostly because of the cost involved.
The Alchemy
LabCrafting Kit is 25 gp. Something fairly low in any case.Each vial costs 1 gp.
The kit contains an infinite reserve of them however. Just seems kinda weird.
And even then...what happens to it afterwards?
The catalyst is in a 1 ounce vial, but what happens to it when you add the magical energy to it? It becomes a Bomb, that much is clear, bit is the Bomb still in the vial? Is it in something else? Does it transmogrify into a glob of energy?
It's...odd to say the least, and ill defined enough that it makes me think it was left ambiguous on purpose so the rules on things like this wouldn't seem strange in some people's heads.
But to tie it back to what I was asking you to begin with however many posts ago...so what?
Even if it is technically an object, how does that change anything?
It's still a Su ability that is a ranged touch attack, it works regardless of object status or not.
I'm willing to concede for now it may be an object (or at least COMES from an object), since the vial in the book is the closest thing we have, but so what?
The object is the ability and the ability is the object.
Well, it's listed as an object, it specifically says it fits one ounce of liquid, and fits the same exact description cited in the Bomb ability. If it asks for "a small vial containing an ounce of liquid catalyst," and there is an item called "Vial" which has a description of "A vial is made out of glass or steel and holds 1 ounce of liquid," you're going to call them as not being the same thing?
If we were comparing any random container (amounting to essentially a non-listed item) to a vial, which is already listed and quantified for, it's safe to say that the vial more closely fits the description of the subject in question than any other random container, comparing the specifics of the two subjects side-by-side to the listed description of what the Alchemist's Bombs are comprised of.
Anyway; so you're saying that an object, created from (actually, more like altered by the Alchemist's Magical Reserves and Liquid Catalysts) an SU or SP ability (which by the way, the bomb still requires hands to hold and throw, the object portion of it proving its requirement), to make an attack with that object, still qualifies for that SU or SP ability to work with Conductive?
**EDIT** And may I add, on what grounds does an object, being used as a Thrown Splash Attack type of weapon, of whose origins come from an SU or SP ability, qualify to work with the Conductive Property?
It's a bit more complicated than that. I'll try to explain the distinction I see here between the Summoning spells and Bombs as far as "separate objects" goes.
Say you summon a Lion.
This lion is now autonomous, separate from you. You can give it orders, and it will go attack, but you are essentially free once it's made.
Same with stuff like Wall of Stone that makes an actual object.
Once you make it, it is a thing. That is the PRODUCT of the ability, not the ability itself.
Bombs, on the other hand...don't really meet that distinction.
They only exist as part of the ability. The ability IS Bombs. The ability is not "Bomb creation", you can't like make a Bomb and then have it exist for any length of time afterwards.
If unused, it is not a bomb. If passed off to someone else, it's not a bomb.
The Bombs ability is not the ability to make Bombs, it IS the Bomb (no pun intended).
They are inseparable. The usage and creation of the Bomb is one fluid action (a Standard to be precise), no in-between.
It's a bit more complicated than that. I'll try to explain the distinction I see here between the Summoning spells and Bombs as far as "separate objects" goes.
Say you summon a Lion.
This lion is now autonomous, separate from you. You can give it orders, and it will go attack, but you are essentially free once it's made.
Same with stuff like Wall of Stone that makes an actual object.
Once you make it, it is a thing. That is the PRODUCT of the ability, not the ability itself.
Bombs, on the other hand...don't really meet that distinction.
They only exist as part of the ability. The ability IS Bombs. The ability is not "Bomb creation", you can't like make a Bomb and then have it exist for any length of time afterwards.
If unused, it is not a bomb. If passed off to someone else, it's not a bomb.
The Bombs ability is not the ability to make Bombs, it IS the Bomb (no pun intended).
They are inseparable. The usage and creation of the Bomb is one fluid action (a Standard to be precise), no in-between.
Keep in mind that they had to point out that you can draw the components (the Vial and the Catalyst, as well as impart your Magical Reserve), mix them together, and then throw the bomb as the same action, because doing it otherwise does not work. But just because one Standard Action contains multiple steps does not subtract the original point I am making; the clause listed for the Bombs is fundamentally no different than the "Free Touch as part of casting a Touch Attack Spell" clause having to be listed.
I would like to contest against the bolded part, since there are a couple things that can deny the character's ability to throw the bomb; becoming Nauseated, knocked Unconscious, and several other things are all capable of rendering the Alchemist being able to draw the components of the bomb and creating the bomb, but after unable to throw it, all thanks to both traps (Some Tear Gas trap triggered by an advanced violent motion sensor perhaps?), and readied actions.
Let's say we got a regular Alchemist and an Archer. Both combatants are mortally wounded; one hit and they are down for the count, but the Alchemist is using cover, whereas the Archer is on the higher ground. Let's say the Archer is ahead of the initiative. He wants to ready an action to shoot at the Alchemist when he jumps out of cover and throws an Alchemist Bomb at him; with the conditions set (and the Alchemist unaware of the Archer's decision), the Alchemist proceeds to 5-foot out of cover, draw the components needed to make the bomb, compile it, and throw it at the Archer to get the "killing blow."
Unfortunately for the Alchemist, the conditions set by the Archer's readied action was when the Alchemist both "jumps out of cover" and "throws an Alchemist Bomb at him." Notice how the first condition (jumping out of cover) is met before the Alchemist draws the components and prepares the bomb, and how the second condition (throwing the bomb; which is supposedly all part of the same fluid action) is met after the Alchemist draws the components and prepares the bomb. signifying that the preparation and creation of the bomb are separate entities from simply throwing the bomb itself. To end the example quickly, the Archer hits with his Readied Action, deals his damage, making the Alchemist go into the negatives, become Unconscious, and therefore unable to complete his action of throwing the bomb.
We could alter this example, make them at the beginning of combat, and have the Archer use a poisoned arrow that gives the creature affected the Nauseated condition on a failed save, making the Alchemist unable to complete the Standard Action (after having drawn and created the bomb, being unable to throw the bomb from being denied a Standard Action), and the effect would be the same.
I do understand the point you're trying to make; your logic is that because there is no action type listed for drawing the components and compiling the bomb, that it's not an action at all for it to happen, and that because this all occurs within a Standard Action, there is no action to be assumed. But if we apply common sense, do you think for 5 seconds that while the ability says you can do X Y and Z with a single Standard Action, that what X Y and Z are quantified as, has zero bearing to what effort they are a part of regarding that Standard Action?
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Actually, you cannot be interrupted during your Standard action between creating a bomb and throwing it. They are the same action as defined by the ability. You can't interrupt an action, mid action. In your situation, one of two things happens 1) the bomb is not created (if the alchemist suffers from some debuff affecting his ability to take a standard action) or 2) the bomb is created and thrown after the archer uses his readied action.
This is clearly spelled out in the ready action rules.
Readying an Action:You can ready a standard action, a move action, a swift action, or a free action. To do so, specify the action you will take and the conditions under which you will take it. Then, anytime before your next action, you may take the readied action in response to that condition. The action occurs just before the action that triggers it. If the triggered action is part of another character's activities, you interrupt the other character. Assuming he is still capable of doing so, he continues his actions once you complete your readied action. Your initiative result changes. For the rest of the encounter, your initiative result is the count on which you took the readied action, and you act immediately ahead of the character whose action triggered your readied action.
You can take a 5-foot step as part of your readied action, but only if you don't otherwise move any distance during the round.
Throwing an alchemist bomb at you is a Standard action that is part of creating the bomb, thus you would act before the bomb is created because that is "the action that triggers it". Mechanically, there is no difference in readying an attack for him throwing the bomb and him making the bomb. They are the same action.
Actually my thought was custom arrows with the material components as part of the arrow. The vial you premix is the arrow. Drawing, charging and firing the final step.
@ Rynjin: Also, the ability doesn't say the bomb (which is comprised of a 1 ounce vial, of which is filled with a liquid catalyst created by the Alchemist, of which lasts for many years, and the Alchemist's Magical Reserves) no longer becomes a bomb when those conditions occur; it says the catalyst becomes inert; that is, it becomes a dud, because there is either no magical reserve being imparted into the catalyst to make it work, or the magical reserve is already expended, and since the magical reserve is being used on such an unstable concoction, it no longer works.
Not working and not being a bomb are separate factors. If I had a ceramic coffee mug that I dropped and had it shatter on the ground, it no longer works as a coffee mug, and it's not a bomb. If I had a bomb that I dropped and it didn't blow up, it no longer works as a bomb because the combustive material no longer functioned, but it was still a bomb that I dropped.