|
I have a PC who is asking whether or not a flask can have MW or magical (+1,2 ect) qualities. I am having a hard time finding a ruling on this. His argument is that since ammunition can gain this quality then crafted flasks should also have the option of having this quality since he can have a "flask Launcher" or a "launching crossbow" which basically makes his flasks ammo.
I am not sure if there are guidelines for this.
Interesting question. Splash Weapons are weapons as Zwordsman points out. And since they're single use items, I'd be tempted to treat them as Ammo, although I'm not aware of the rules anywhere specifically pointing them out as such.
Unless someone knows of any RAW or RAI that would disallow it, I'd say go for it as far as the MW part...why not have an aerodynamically superior flask? I'm not sure how you'd handle magical enhancements, however, since it is the contents of the flask and not the flask itself that is dealing the damage. So unless there is a way to magically enhance Acid or Alchemist's Fire so they hurt more, you might have an issue there.
Further conjecture would possibly stray into the Advice section.
Wouldn't it just be a more aerodynamic flask, then?
|
So, he is willing to pay additional gold...to make the flask hold liquid...better?
Masterwork makes an item perform better than normal at it's 'default' use. for example, if you purchase masterwork stone mason tools, it gives a bonus to the profession(stonemason) skill. It doesn't also allow you to remove the hammer from the set and use it as a masterwork weapon.
They are not ammo. They would be priced as single thrown weapons.
Some Enhancement wouldn't do much, although I guess Flaming, etc could just add that bonus dmg, even if vanilla Enhancement bonus wouldn't do anything because the flask doesn't do any base dmg to apply a bonus to?
Alchemical weapons are not listed with other weapons, they are specific gears.
The masterwork quality is always tied to the weapon list
Splash weapons don't require weapon proficiencies.
All the flasks can be thrown "as a splash weapon", they don't seems to be splash weapons.
All those reasons above make me think you can't make masterwork alchemical fire, nor magical versions.
I would agree with the 'magical versions' part. But I think it is certainly possible to make a MW version of a throw-able object. Some objects are just built for throwing (Frisbees) while others just aren't (my home-made chocolate chip cookies). You're going to get a lot of range and accuracy out of that first one, while the second...well better to munch them with a glass of cold milk and call it even.
Again, however, this is all interpretation unless someone knows of any RAW that paints this one way or the other.
You can't make a chair masterwork for battle for example. Same for a flask I guess.
Masterwork is the prerequisite for magical version. If you allow one, you end up with both.
A masterwork weapon is a finely crafted version of a normal weapon.
On the other hand, I believe the jury is still out on whether or not you can enchant a launching crossbow and have the bonus apply to attack and damage rolls with splash weapons...
You can't make a chair masterwork for battle for example. Same for a flask I guess.
I agree with the chair. A chair is not a weapon. It can be used as an improvised weapon, but it is not designed for that. If you want to MW your chair, you are making it a sturdy, comfy chair that gives you +2 to all sitting checks. :P
The flask though is part of the splash weapon as a whole. And Splash Weapons are weapons. In the Throw Splash Weapon section it says how it is "a ranged weapon that breaks on impact." This implies the flask breaking, hence part of the weapon. In fact, maybe it's easier to think of it as the delivery system to the acid/fire much like the bow is to the arrow. The bow doesn't deal damage to a target, the arrow does (although according to the Weapons Table it would suggest the bow does the damage and arrows don't do any). And you can still MW a bow.
So I would certainly be led to believe that it can be improved as any thrown weapon...making it better weighted, balanced, and aerodynamic.
Masterwork is the prerequisite for magical version. If you allow one, you end up with both.
MW must precede Magic, but Magic is not required to follow MW. But let's say yes and now you can enchant your acid flasks just like you can enchant a net.
Actually that leads to an interesting question a bit off topic. What exactly does a +5 flaming Net do?
A masterwork weapon is a finely crafted version of a normal weapon.
What is a normal weapon? I'm reading that to mean a regular version of whatever weapon one is talking about. Bows, swords, splash weapons, nets, etc.
I would probably let him make it masterwork and allow the bonus to apply to attack rolls representing a better flask specifically for throwing. But I certainlty wouldn't allow any enhancements (masterwork or magical) to apply damage. You're enhancing the flask, but the flask doesn't deal damage. The contents do.
So I'd allow up to a +5, but it would enhance attack rolls only. I would also allow the distance and seeking enhancement to be applied if desired, but nothing else would work to enhance the item for throwing or launching from a flask launcher.
I certainly wouldn't allow any enhancements (masterwork or magical) to apply damage. You're enhancing the flask, but the flask doesn't deal damage. The contents do.
So I'd allow up to a +5, but it would enhance attack rolls only.
A bow by itself doesn't do any damage (unless you whack someone with it). It is only the delivery system for the arrow. But I can enhance the bow and gain a bonus to attack and damage rolls. This is because the bow is imparting more accuracy and force to the arrow (or more accurately stated, it is imparting its enhanced nature to the arrow). The flask is the delivery system of a splash weapon. Its job is to shatter and spill the contents on the target. The acid is what does the damage. Now I agree that enhancing the flask should only add to the attack roll since;
1) the flask's damage is non-existent and
2) we're only talking about a touch attack
This would seem to be exactly how an enhanced Net would behave.
But just to play devil's advocate, would it seem to make sense that the enhanced nature of the flask could impart itself into the acid? Or what if the attack was good enough to score a hit against AC rather than just Touch? Could the damage apply then? This would be the case for the enhancement bonus as well as other abilities such as flaming, frost, etc. An AC hit means you've just shattered the flask in his face; which happens to be the iconic image of someone getting a whiskey bottle smashed over their head in a tavern brawl.
Just to expand a little point of mine:
All the flasks can be thrown "as a splash weapon", they don't seems to be splash weapons.
The relevant text is in the description of the acid and of alchemical fire, for example:
You can throw a flask of acid as a splash weapon. Treat this attack as a ranged touch attack with a range increment of 10 feet. A direct hit deals 1d6 points of acid damage. Every creature within 5 feet of the point where the acid hits takes 1 point of acid damage from the splash.
Plus, acid is used in a flask. Remember the chair argument ?
Flasks are adventuring gears, not weapons, so can't be upgraded to masterwork quality (for weapons). You just end up with a more artistic flask... An aesthetic way to kill people, I guess, but nothing more.Maybe it's because you don't craft a "flask of acid", just acid in a quantity you can (=should) put in a flask to use it efficiently (Hu... Does it bumps the price of all those alchemical weapons of 3cp to use it that way? Ô.o)
The funniest part, the only splash weapon described as one is the sneezing powder. every other substance are described to be used in a flask "as a splash weapon".
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I understand where you're going with this, but I think you might be giving too much emphasis to the "as" in the Acid quote. If you link through from the Acid description in the PRD it gives you the description of what a Splash weapon is. It's a weapon that breaks on impact. What breaks? Not the acid. The flask does, because it's part of the weapon. A flask of acid is as much a weapon as a bow and arrow. The flask and the bow don't do any damage on their own. The damage is delivered by the acid and the arrow. But the bow can still be enchanted and the benefits of such will transfer to the arrow, even to the point of punching through DR.
Granted there is no RAW that says this, but it would seem to make sense that you can design a flask for throwing. Tossing a Molotov Cocktail is a messy thing to do because a liquor bottle is not meant to be thrown. A specially designed flask can be contoured in such a way as to improve its aerodynamic nature, thereby imparting a MW quality to it.
Meh. My interpretation anyway.
And I'm still wondering how one treats a +5 Flaming Net attack.
Let 'em have masterwork flasks (more aerodynamic, break up easier, easier to grip, etc.), but if they want to magic them up, remind them that the magic will also increase the hardness of the item, which would be counterproductive to the goal of shattering on impact.
To correct something mentioned earlier (although the correction was also mentioned earlier), while the masterwork quality is most often associated with a weapon, there are in-game examples of non-weapon items that are masterwork. For example, skill kits like thieves' tools can be of masterwork quality.
As to the original question, by RAW there is no such thing as a "masterwork flask". I see no reason why one couldn't exist, but that would be up to your GM - as would any benefit such an object would grant to you.
Just when you thought you've seen every topic this beauty comes along
Hmmm, I just figured out I forgot to mention all of my statements are just for the "RAW" stuff. I don't see any problem in a house-rule to have acid flasks as the WWII German handgrenades for example.
But just to play devil's advocate, would it seem to make sense that the enhanced nature of the flask could impart itself into the acid?
No. It makes the opposite of sense.
It's APFSDS vs HEAT (anti-tank ammunition types). The first (like an arrow) benefits from a higher muzzle velocity (better bow) because it's using kinetic energy to do damage. The second (like an alchemical splash weapon) is doing damage with the chemical energy of the warhead it carries and does not benefit from a higher muzzle velocity beyond that needed for accuracy.
But just to play devil's advocate, would it seem to make sense that the enhanced nature of the flask could impart itself into the acid?No. It makes the opposite of sense.
It's APFSDS vs HEAT (anti-tank ammunition types). The first (like an arrow) benefits from a higher muzzle velocity (better bow) because it's using kinetic energy to do damage. The second (like an alchemical splash weapon) is doing damage with the chemical energy of the warhead it carries and does not benefit from a higher muzzle velocity beyond that needed for accuracy.
Yes, the Devil's Advocate part wasn't anything I necessarily agreed with, but put out there for people to think about and discuss (as I was curious of people's answers). You make a good point. And I agree that "accuracy" is a key factor regarding delivery, since poor accuracy misses the target entirely and disallows all damage. Now since MW is an improvement to that accuracy, I'm still inclined to believe that any MW or Enhancement bonus would at the very least add to the attack roll (we are talking about a touch attack after all). It's too bad really that there aren't rules in place which allow you to improve splash damage through higher cost and Crafting rolls. Something like Acid, Improved Acid, and Greater Acid or some such.