DayZ / Permadeath / Heirs

[Elynor]

Just wanted to share my thoughts and those of my close friends, buddy crowdforgers as well, about Permanent Death.

We think that Permanent Death is an extremely hardcore rule that makes things extremely interesting, even if so, sometimes frustrating.

We also understand that this kind of punishment is not fit for everyone, but interesting for many, as games and mods like DayZ and Z-Day which include this feature are growing in popularity and being cloned in a monthly basis.

As far as I know, there will only be one shard of pathfinder online, a single world/server. We think this permadeath mode would make it worth it to create a more hardcore one as an option.

In a world in which there is actually real resurrection spells, there is even more reason for this to be implemented, as since there is a tool to fix a permanent unbearable thing, makes it not so punishing after all (if you can manage to carry the body to the appropiate priest... imagine if the player decides to make a living dead out of it... imagine the extra layer of possibilities).

In case of permadeath, a heir system should be implemented so you do not have to start over 100% and, and at least have the stuff you stored safely.

We do not like at all this whole Mask of Pharasma thing. Makes everything extremely fantastic. D&D is a fantasy setting, yes, but if Game of Thrones has tought us something is that fantasy settings with loads of mundane content and tiny bits of fantasy here and there, makes things a lot more interesting as fantastic things become rare and interesting to find, rather than being mundane fantastic.

Another game that I mentioned before and that I would like to draw attention from is Mount & Blade, the more stuff that you copy (or are inspired) from this, the better (except for the bad graphics), specially its combat system... mundane but real and interesting.

Hope this was useful.

[Banesama]

Permadeath is alright with TT games. But with a large game like PFO which will focus heavily on PvP, I can't help view permadeath making the game almost unplayable.

Death is going to be common. Now if you want to play a permadeath way, that is fine. But I don't see a reason to build a system for it in the coding.

There might be ways to simulate heir by creating an Alt and trading equipment to it. But you'll lose all the training you've paid for with your main.

[Elynor]

It depends on what your definition of playable is.

For me, being lvl 20 should be extremely rare, and being below level 10 common, in a realistic fantasy world.

Playing as a citizen of a large town that is afraid of the wilderness and only travels in a caravan for safety is a playable concept. Just more risky.

I am not going to play a permadeath way in a world without the feature, I will play this game gladly within its rules.

[AvenaOats]

Elynor: See Trials of Ascension for their Permadeath mechanic. It's not orthodox which is probably the only way of making Permadeath work in a mmorpg.

1. 100 lives
2. Knocked out before dying so revived is possible

The alternative is skill-training loss penalty; in Eve I think they call it podding.

PFO goes for economic penalty similar to EVE but with threading.

If you include Permadeath the whole game needs to orientate around it to accommodate it.

Effectively if players invest in their characters and lose them they lose all that investment which for mmorpg is not ideal for players and devs.

I don't mind some small area o the game where Pharasma's Mark is either diminished or defunct (such as some alternative planar reality or really low rep players in some minor context) but the game at large probably not. It's fun to have rare twists on the main rules sometimes.

The question recycling that investment from characters to their communities is worth thinking about and if some characters stop training at a certain level. In nature energy flow across ecosystems is interesting or economic flow (faucet & sink).

=

I know the devs have said Mount & Blade combat probably not what they are working on due to scaling up for MMO- across networks. I guess the question is as a sandbox mmorpg there will be more than just combat but will combat still be fun at various levels (solo, group, mass, PvE, PvP, PvEvP etc)

[HalfOrc with a Hat of Disguise]

Given it'll take 2.5-3 years to 'cap', I would be horrified at the concept of Perma-death.

If the game allowed you to roll a new toon with slightly lower 'attributes' (ie, you can assign your skill-trees/badges how you like, but you'll be 3 months 'below' what your original character was), then yeah, I could get behind a 'Perma-Death' function if you rack up too many 'deaths' in game and Pharasma decided to pull a Darwin Awards on you for the benefit of future generations, but with the sheer volume of time alone necessitated to make your character grow and become 'you' or what you want in the game, that's way too harsh and would drive off far too many players.

[Bluddwolf]

I would much rather see the death penalty of full loot and death sickness tested first. If that does not produce the needed psychological aversion to character death, than perhaps more steps towards permanent death can be taken.

Maybe there could be a character identity wipe. All experience gets returned to the character's pool. But all training, accolades, feats, equipment, inventory, bank items and coin disappear. The player must even change the toon's name and all affiliations (company, settlement and faction) would have to be reestablished.

A clean slate with exception to training time purchased.

[AvenaOats]

Yes, death penalties test first. You balance aversion and engagement frequency of such "loss results": On the one hand consequential (drive to avoid loss conditions) and on the other not onerous that people avoid engagement of combat.

[Pax Shane Gifford]

Elynor wrote:

We do not like at all this whole Mask of Pharasma thing. Makes everything extremely fantastic. D&D is a fantasy setting, yes, but if Game of Thrones has tought us something is that fantasy settings with loads of mundane content and tiny bits of fantasy here and there, makes things a lot more interesting as fantastic things become rare and interesting to find, rather than being mundane fantastic.

The Golarion world setting is a fantastic place. It is not in the same vein as Martin's fantasy world at all, and to tone down the fantasy to that level would require it becoming something other than "Pathfinder Online".

What benefit does permanent death serve? Does it make things more exciting during play, does it make it feel like you are losing something significant when you die? I like to play permanent death in some games (Path of Exile for one) but one in which your character grows over years instead of days seems like exactly the wrong place for permanent death to me.

[Notmyrealname]

Elynor wrote:

As far as I know, there will only be one shard of pathfinder online, a single world/server. We think this permadeath mode would make it worth it to create a more hardcore one as an option.

You are asking for another server for hardcore mode, that's not going to happen. There will be one server ,nothing will change the plan on that for the near future. The concept is one world that all players are a part of ,EVE never made another server so I would guess there is a real good reason they didn't.

[Pax Hobs]

Bluddwolf wrote:

Maybe there could be a character identity wipe. All experience gets returned to the character's pool. But all training, accolades, feats, equipment, inventory, bank items and coin disappear. The player must even change the toon's name and all affiliations (company, settlement and faction) would have to be reestablished.

A clean slate with exception to training time purchased.

Seems like a way for potential griefers to start over without losing any training time investment. Resupplied by his friends, he grinds through the badge thingy to earn his skills (for which he already has the xp), and he's off and running for more, but without his bad name to tell people he's the troublesome yahoo they knew before.

[AvenaOats]

If the devs can think up some way to make an industry of Pharasma's Mark then that is an interesting option:

We know for eg:

1. Healing -> Food
2. Places of soul-binding
3. Critical -> Some special healin
4. Twice-Marked of Pharasma
-
5. Mark's efficacy variability due to ? Perhaps the Mark loses it's potency in some area or to some people (xp loss).

[Mbando]

Elynor, this is an epically bad idea. How can you not see that games like DayZ are so different from PFO in concept and audience, that randomly pointing at a features you think are "neat" is nonsensical? The average life expectancy on the DayZ mod server is 1 hour and 9 minutes. I guess that's ok, given that DayZ is a survival/murder game, and the audience is interested in bragging rights for having survived/murdered.

So, you don't understand that PFO is pretty much the literal, exact opposite of a survival game? It's a game about persistency and effects? DayZ: up to 40 players per server, churning anonymously through meaningless avatars and having no persistent impact on a fixed 225 KM2 murder simulator. PFO: 10s of thousands of characters building a shared social, political, and material reality with persistent avatars imbued with personal meaning in a world meant to change in response to the decisions of players.

This is like saying that Super Mario World is strong evidence we should add coins and platform jumping to PFO, because Super Mario World is "being cloned on a monthly basis!" Heck, at least Super Mario World actually made money--juries still very out on whether developing and hosting a hard core murder/survival simulator is a sustainable business model.

Plus -20,000 for citing Game of Thrones as an example to adapt from. Hey, if Twilight "taught us something, it's that" popular culture has space for commercially viable but nauseating crap.

[Lifedragn]

Permanent death is not necessarily bad idea outright, especially with some form of heir system. However, it will not work in PFO on the scales envisioned. This is the sort of thing you have to design for from the beginning. Personally, I would consider permanent death an inferior design for my own enjoyment.

The existing death penalty is already extremely harsh, especially in a game where what you own is just as important to your success as your training.

-1 for support of theses suggestions, but do not let that discourage you from continuing to speak up.

[Jester David]

Permadeath is becoming rather popular, but it would make it exceedingly hard to accomplice any change in the world. Building settlements would take far, far longer as just getting the materials would cost multiple lives.
And unless the goods would need to be harvestable by rookie skills, as no one would last long enough to get their skills high enough to actually get the advanced resourced needed to build anything.

This would cause the economy to suffer and very few goods that were not built by rookie skills would ever enter the market. This would extremely devalue basic equipment because there would be so much.

Permadeath also empowered Zerg rushes, the goonsquad tactics from EVE where you repeatedly rush a superior force and overwhelm them. This will already be a viable tactic, but it has the added effect of removing days/weeks/months of experience from a character. You don't need to take and hold territory, you just need to kill the people associated with it.

I think the end result would be people adventuring with unskilled alts, expendable characters, while their paid characters sit around just gaining skills, too valuable to risk taking out of a city. Adventuring would be rare, exploring would be rare, and generally playing the game would be rare.

Permadeath is better left for games that fit the mechanic. An MMO with permadeath would be interesting, but the entire game would have to revolve around that. That would have to be its hook, it would have to complement the plan for the game. A sandbox perpetual world driven by the players actions is less benefited by permadeath.

[HalfOrc with a Hat of Disguise]

Maybe aging, rather than Perma-Death?

No, that won't work. Elves, Dwarves and Gnomes would last forever and a day, while Half-Orcs and -Elves, Humans and Halflings would need to be re-rolled every few Real-Life Years.

[Pax Charlie George]

I like DayZ, Rust, and ArmA. I regularly play DayZ and Rust to this day. The unforgiving nature of the game is part of the appeal for me, but I think it works in those games because they are meant to be gritty. Not to mention those games are small in comparison to true MMO games.

Also, in many of these online games you are your loot. In Rust you save your crafting mods when you die, which makes it a little more forgiving, but you are still essentially the gear.

I don't think wholesale permadeath would work as well when the player base is larger, and the end game being different.

Just repeating Jester's points really, it would be hard to justify permadeath when the hook or the game is not centered on it.

[Elynor]

I agree that, with this concept in the game, the whole game mechanics would have to change around it.

Obviously it should take a lot less than 3 years to cap, but it would be extremely dificcult for anyone to do so.

I like the idea that a murderer can be chased by the community and lose the character eventually.

Crime does not pay then :)

[Elynor]

Eventually everyone will be capped right.

We will have tons of lvl 20 characters (or whatever the max is) roaming the world.

If this is what you want then fine, but I think the other way around would be a lot more interesting.

I see a lot of hardcore concepts in this game, I am just suggesting another one, which, well executed, imo would make it awesome, and badly executed would obviously ruin the experience. Yes, its a huge gamble.

[AvenaOats]

Elynor: You make a good point concerning the trend towards top-heavy.

However:

1. Av 2.5 to cap lvl 20 in one Role Feature for combat (eg Cleric)
2. Skills will probably expand width-ways lateral progression options over time and possibly alternative options per Role Feature vertically ie skill-training I believ if anything like EVE will be vast or growing over time.

This is really good: we don't want:

1. "Win" condition of complete character too soon
2. We don't want everyone demi-gods
3. We don't want fully self-sufficient characters

Devs have said there is a problem o players skilling all they want then not skilling.

Possibly new buildings and new skills in line with new parts of the map in line with population of old to new characters?

Perhaps Alignment transitions impose permissions problems on using skills/building with a time (long) delay to keep the labour force from perfectly free movement - increasing niche demand of skills shortage?

[HalfOrc with a Hat of Disguise]

Possibly, a player might be able to flag themselves for 'Perma-Death', but they gain a massive bonus to reputation/skill gain and possibly other mechanical benefits while doing so, but it's a full 24 hour buff/debuff combo?

*Live to Win song/game montage inbound*

[Stephen Cheney]

Richard Bartle outlines some good reasons why permadeath is both something designers would love to include some day and why it's not practical in modern MMOs here (starting on page 3). One of the other major reasons that it's impractical in a lot of ways that he doesn't mention (IIRC) is that lag and other things that are totally out of your control cause death in MMOs all the time, and would be rage-inducing if they cost you your character. That is, it's not totally about getting players to the point that they'd accept it in general, because some of the realities of MMOs as regularly conceived makes it something that would be hard sell even if the majority of players were okay with the general concept.

One possible way to go about it (which I shamelessly borrow from one of the MMO blogging luminaries, but I can't remember which one right now) would be to have a dynasty or group that was your actual "character," and individual character death was permanent but the group kept going. This is how State of Decay works (on a single-player level). PFO isn't going to work that way, but it's something that might be more viable in MMOs if survival games continue to acclimate players to the concept.

[Urman]

if they cost you your character is a big point. I can't remember an MMO where I didn't die at least once due to some hiccup or terrain glitch.

[Jester David]

Elynor wrote:

I agree that, with this concept in the game, the whole game mechanics would have to change around it.

Obviously it should take a lot less than 3 years to cap, but it would be extremely dificcult for anyone to do so.

I like the idea that a murderer can be chased by the community and lose the character eventually.

Crime does not pay then :)

If you have to change 90% of the mechanics and design to implement a new design idea, if you have to rework the game from the ground up, the new design idea just might not be compatible with the intended game.

They'd have to change how leveling works and how experience is gained.
They'd have to front load crafting.
There'd be high turnover of settlements.

It would greatly reduce the feeling of permanence in the game, the idea of creating a lasting contribution to the world. Which would greatly decrease the incentive to play for long durations.
GW is trying to design PFO to follow the model of EVE where it has fewer players but far less turnover as people just keep playing. But permadeath makes it very easy to stop playing: you play in spurts, trying to last longer and get farther regularly taking breaks. There's far, far less incentive to keep playing every day after a streak was broken.

The last point is crucial. Permadeath survival games are new and currently the hip thing. People are tripping over themselves to make permadeath games, especially with early access (likely because they want to recoup money before the fad ends). We don't know about the staying power of such games yet.
Which means delaying PFO by 3-6 months to rework the entire game to add permadeath could backfire horribly if that gameplay falls out of vogue.

A small permadeath fantasy MMO would be cool. Maybe something with a dark fairy tale feel, so venturing into the forest is almost certain death, but your small villiage needs the resources. Competing villiages in the dark wood, with success measured by how successful your settlement is. Long nights and short summers. Where the point of the game isn't building a city but surviving the week.

[Arwald]

Why I would prefer permadeath in Pathfinder online?

Because in pen and paper Pathfinder you simply don`t respawn;everybody would find it strange and would remove excitement from combat and encounters.

Where are the true heroism in a world where you can not die. No rrisk, no héroes. And legends? What about narrating an epic quest where the valiant hero finally died for a cause? no possible.

In a character levelling system like Wow`s, permadeath is non-viable because you need months or years and thousands and thousands of monsters killed to reach highest levels. Un pen&paper Pathfinder/d&d you don`t need to exterminate the monster population of a region to achieve it. I dont want to experiment that kind of wow experience in Pathfinder. I would prever to invest much less time but much more exciting.

But sadly there is probably no enough market for a permadeath mmorpg; the average customer would feel too frustrated when his beloved character diez and would leave the gane forever :(

[Steelwing]

In a game of settlement warfare I do not believe perma death would work. Any settlement waging war and winning would still weaken itself so significantly that it would be easy pickings.

My opinion you can have permadeath or you can have settlement warfare but not both in one game

[Jazzlvraz]

Stephen Cheney wrote:

This is how State of Decay works (on a single-player level).

It's also the core concept behind Paradox's Crusader Kings II; you play as a dynasty, and when one "you" dies, you take over as your heir. A fun side note: in some cases, your heir can turn out to be a walking disaster waiting to happen, and the game allows you to attempt to assassinate him in order to clear the way for a better candidate.

As for perma-death: oh please Ghod no. I like the answer I see so often in perma-death threads: if you want perma-death, delete your own character, but leave mine alone :-).

[Papaver]

I personally think perms death is not that big of a deal especially in PFO since we have started getting conflict mechanics such as SAD where not all resolutions are death. Perms death would also add nicely to the list of meaningful consequences. Basically we only need a mechanic where we can knock out someone reliably instead of killing him/her and we are set for perms death.

[Pax Keovar]

Elynor wrote:

... if Game of Thrones has tought us something ...

If Game of Thrones has taught me anything, it's that life is cheap in Westeros, and there's no point in getting invested in a character that'll just get killed off sooner for trying to be relatively powerful and decent at the same time. Unlike Westeros, Golarion is certainly not a low-magic setting, and the personification of death herself has decided that some mortals are exempt from their mortality, at least for a time (a character who is never logged in again is effectively dead).

You are free to be as hardcore as you like, and delete your characters under any circumstances you wish, but permadeath as a rule takes away that choice. Settlement destruction fills the role of permanent death in PFO.

Maybe there could eventually be a way to train characters on an unpaid account if those characters are subject to permanent death? If PFO runs into the "this world looks to be sinking, so everyone is jumping ship" problem, that might be a way to keep the apparent population up.
I don't think it'd work well for PFO, but there could be a PD game which requires linking to a credit card or Paypal account and requires payment to revive a 'dead' character, like the MMO version of an old-school arcade cabinet game.

[Nihimon]

Stephen Cheney wrote:

Richard Bartle outlines some good reasons why permadeath is both something designers would love to include some day and why it's not practical in modern MMOs here (starting on page 3).

Newbie Induction: How Poor Design Triumphs in Virtual Worlds wrote:

Under the normal evolutionary rules by which computer games operate, good design genes are propagated from one generation of games to the next. In virtual worlds, outright bad design genes are still eliminated (because they’re universally seen as such), but poor design genes are propagated more readily than good ones. This is because itinerant players act as carriers for them. The best virtual worlds don’t spread their design genes around so much, because they have much better player retention.

This really stood out for me.

[Andas]

Arwald wrote:

Why I would prefer permadeath in Pathfinder online?

Because in pen and paper Pathfinder you simply don`t respawn;everybody would find it strange and would remove excitement from combat and encounters.

In the Pathfinder TT games I have played you could purchase a rez or the party cleric could rez (if they were high enough level).

You always had the option of starting a new character, but not many people took it unless they were tired of that character.

Of course that is the advantage of a small group and a human GM.

[Pax Keovar]

Andas wrote:

Arwald wrote:

Why I would prefer permadeath in Pathfinder online?

Because in pen and paper Pathfinder you simply don`t respawn;everybody would find it strange and would remove excitement from combat and encounters.

In the Pathfinder TT games I have played you could purchase a rez or the party cleric could rez (if they were high enough level).

You always had the option of starting a new character, but not many people took it unless they were tired of that character.

Of course that is the advantage of a small group and a human GM.

You also don't have your tabletop character's life ended by lag and other technology failures, nor are the other players actively trying to kill you, unless you're stuck in that phase when someone in the party always wants to play assassins & antipaladins who predictably turn on the group by session 3.

Also: "everybody would find it strange", Andas? You do realize this is a fantasy game with magic damn near everywhere, right?

[Mbando]

Pax Keovar wrote:

Settlement destruction fills the role of permanent death in PFO.

That's a key insight, because you've located the level of analysis for understanding PFO as a game. This isn't primarily a PvP game, but rather Social structure vs. Social structure game, so you are quote correct in pointing to that level for where the stakes are. It's the same answer for all these "Better death penalties for PVE" comments--they're focusing at the wrong level of analysis.

[Nihimon]

Mbando wrote:

Pax Keovar wrote:

Settlement destruction fills the role of permanent death in PFO.

That's a key insight, because you've located the level of analysis for understanding PFO as a game.

I remember making this point about a year ago. It felt like an epiphany at the time, especially since I had made several posts in the year prior about the positive aspects of permadeath in general.

It's certainly a bonus that your Settlement isn't likely to be destroyed due to a momentary lag hitch...

[Pax Keovar]

Mbando wrote:

Pax Keovar wrote:

Settlement destruction fills the role of permanent death in PFO.

That's a key insight, because you've located the level of analysis for understanding PFO as a game. This isn't primarily a PvP game, but rather Social structure vs. Social structure game, so you are quote correct in pointing to that level for where the stakes are. It's the same answer for all these "Better death penalties for PVE" comments--they're focusing at the wrong level of analysis.

Thanks, though as Nihimon points out, the point is often made when the permadeath topic rolls around, and will probably continue to be so.

I guess in a context in which your identity is primarily defined by who you are to others, there would be no quandary of identity inherent in a murder/clone machine like a Star Trek transporter or the magical death/resurrection system that the Mark of Pharasma provides; as long as everyone else thinks of you as the same individual, you effectively are the same person, regardless of continuity or causality.

Spin-off thought: Unless you lose the memories of your life immediately prior to death, can you imagine the severe PTSD that could build up in someone who has been violently killed multiple times? I don't really follow comics but I think Wolverine's 'healing factor' caused amnesia as a way of 'healing' psychological stress. The Nameless One from Planescape: Torment is similar in the sense that there were times when he was better off not knowing his full history or identity.

Pax Keovar wrote:

Arwald wrote:

Why I would prefer permadeath in Pathfinder online?

Because in pen and paper Pathfinder you simply don`t respawn;everybody would find it strange and would remove excitement from combat and encounters.

Also: "everybody would find it strange", Andas? You do realize this is a fantasy game with magic damn near everywhere, right?

Sorry for the mistake in the name to whom I meant to address that reply, Andas.

[Andas]

Pax Keovar wrote:

Andas wrote:

Arwald wrote:

Why I would prefer permadeath in Pathfinder online?

Because in pen and paper Pathfinder you simply don`t respawn;everybody would find it strange and would remove excitement from combat and encounters.

In the Pathfinder TT games I have played you could purchase a rez or the party cleric could rez (if they were high enough level).

You always had the option of starting a new character, but not many people took it unless they were tired of that character.

Of course that is the advantage of a small group and a human GM.

<snip>

Also: "everybody would find it strange", Andas? You do realize this is a fantasy game with magic damn near everywhere, right?

Note that it was Arwald that preferred perma death. I am opposed to it :)

[Pax Keovar]

Andas wrote:

Note that it was Arwald that preferred perma death. I am opposed to it :)

Right, I just noticed that, and edited my previous post to apologize. :)

Come to think of it, the comment was probably too snarky, so I apologize to Arwald too.

[Andas]

No worries. The nested quotes are easy to combine into one quote.

[Mbando]

Pax Keovar wrote:

Spin-off thought: Unless you lose the memories of your life immediately prior to death, can you imagine the severe PTSD that could build up in someone who has been violently killed multiple times?

It would depend on how they made meaning of the experience. Outcomes from potential stressors or trauma aren't automatic, and are in a sense intentional as humans make choices (even choices they are not attentive to).

[Andius]

I just don't think permadeath is quite right for this game. Mainly because player interaction is the primary content and it hinges largely on combat.

I could see how you could make a game kind of like PFO where permadeath might be extremely interesting. It reminds me of a sandbox I heard about a long time ago that got cancelled called Adellion where you would have only gotten two deaths before your character was permanently dead. But because of that they were kind of designing PvP to have an immense gravity where murder of a character would be viewed very dimly by the rest of society and probably result in your own death at the hands of your neighbors. And war would not have been a subject taken lightly.

PFO is designed to cater much better to players who want frequent PvP.

[Pax Keovar]

Mbando wrote:

Pax Keovar wrote:

Spin-off thought: Unless you lose the memories of your life immediately prior to death, can you imagine the severe PTSD that could build up in someone who has been violently killed multiple times?

It would depend on how they made meaning of the experience. Outcomes from potential stressors or trauma aren't automatic, and are in a sense intentional as humans make choices (even choices they are not attentive to).

Sure, it's not automatic and depends on the individual, but I also think it would be more severe to experience it rather than just seeing it happen to someone else. I was thinking that it could be a debuff of sorts that takes some time to wear off, so if you happen to be near a respawn location there's not a steady stream of newly-resurrected players keeping a combat active until their buddies show up. Maybe all the debuff would do is make one unable to initiate combat with another player for a couple minutes?

[Being]

Mbando wrote:

Pax Keovar wrote:

Spin-off thought: Unless you lose the memories of your life immediately prior to death, can you imagine the severe PTSD that could build up in someone who has been violently killed multiple times?

It would depend on how they made meaning of the experience. Outcomes from potential stressors or trauma aren't automatic, and are in a sense intentional as humans make choices (even choices they are not attentive to).

In one game (Dragonrealms) memory loss grew more severe the longer you waited in the state of death hoping for a rez.

Since skills increased by using them, losing memories meant the longer you waited before 'releasing' your soul to be respawned at the nearest shrine, the more 'rings' or levels you would lose in your various skills (and there were many).

As difficult as it could become to regain those memories through practice this was an extremely challenging system. Death was quite meaningful. Knowing when to retreat was a critical decision. Knowing when to release as well. Clerics and 'empaths' could perform rituals if they had time that would recollect your lost memories before they resurrected the player from his corpse or (less desirable)at his gravesite so it was a meaningful decision when to release. Empaths and Clerics who would actually respond to your ghostly cries for help were very highly valued, especially when they were good enough to clear out the dangerous mobs in order to recollect your memories and thereby your hard-won skills. These worthies also formed the core of a very strong sense of community.

New players could even be useful and bond with the community, especially during invasions by sneaking around dragging unreleased corpses to the strategic 'hospital', a centralized spot that was defensible and where clerics and empaths gathered to rez and heal. The newbies might die by the score since they couldn't survive even one hit from the invaders, but they had much less to lose. Their courage dragging the corpses of the well-geared and high-ranking veterans from the battlefield was exemplary of the team spirit.

Helluva good game, even though it had no graphics.

[Nihimon]

Mbando wrote:

Pax Keovar wrote:

Spin-off thought: Unless you lose the memories of your life immediately prior to death, can you imagine the severe PTSD that could build up in someone who has been violently killed multiple times?

It would depend on how they made meaning of the experience. Outcomes from potential stressors or trauma aren't automatic, and are in a sense intentional as humans make choices (even choices they are not attentive to).

Isn't this largely the subject of your work? It seems like a "key insight" as well, and something that could really help some folks.

[Being]

If the experience could be used as catalysts of community bonding, where the player can only turn to his fellows and they have a way to meaningfully respond, then ultimately a traumatic event might transcend entropy and death into wellness and life.

If, by bonding cooperatively, characters can overcome hardship and achieve shared benefit then community gains virtue and meaning.

[Mbando]

Nihimon wrote:

Mbando wrote:

Pax Keovar wrote:

Spin-off thought: Unless you lose the memories of your life immediately prior to death, can you imagine the severe PTSD that could build up in someone who has been violently killed multiple times?

It would depend on how they made meaning of the experience. Outcomes from potential stressors or trauma aren't automatic, and are in a sense intentional as humans make choices (even choices they are not attentive to).

Isn't this largely the subject of your work? It seems like a "key insight" as well, and something that could really help some folks.

Yep. In fact, just had an article on this accepted by the Armed Forces & Society journal.The key insight is that humans variably make meaning of potentially traumatic events based on context and choice. I've interviewed Marines who made sense of losing one of their junior Marines in combat by deciding they did the best they could under the circumstances, or they would learn from the experience and do better next time. At the other end of the spectrum, the meaning they make is one of shame and failure, and self-judgment as not worthy to live. And in between are those (the majority I suspect) who aren't quite sure, trying to cope with what happened, by nagged by doubt and the threat of judgement.

And you're quite right Nihimon--this is broadly applicable. Every potentially traumatic event is going to be interpreted, and depending on the self-awareness and coping strategies of the person (and the support of those around them) they'll do better or worse. It could be a cop who shot a kid, someone in an accident who lost a leg--hell, it could be someone who lost their job or spouse (and thus a sense of who they are)--and they will make meaning of what has happened, which has powerful stakes for their well-being.

[Pax Shane Gifford]

Being wrote:

Mbando wrote:

Pax Keovar wrote:

Spin-off thought: Unless you lose the memories of your life immediately prior to death, can you imagine the severe PTSD that could build up in someone who has been violently killed multiple times?

It would depend on how they made meaning of the experience. Outcomes from potential stressors or trauma aren't automatic, and are in a sense intentional as humans make choices (even choices they are not attentive to).

In one game (Dragonrealms) memory loss grew more severe the longer you waited in the state of death hoping for a rez.

Since skills increased by using them, losing memories meant the longer you waited before 'releasing' your soul to be respawned at the nearest shrine, the more 'rings' or levels you would lose in your various skills (and there were many).

As difficult as it could become to regain those memories through practice this was an extremely challenging system. Death was quite meaningful. Knowing when to retreat was a critical decision. Knowing when to release as well. Clerics and 'empaths' could perform rituals if they had time that would recollect your lost memories before they resurrected the player from his corpse or (less desirable)at his gravesite so it was a meaningful decision when to release. Empaths and Clerics who would actually respond to your ghostly cries for help were very highly valued, especially when they were good enough to clear out the dangerous mobs in order to recollect your memories and thereby your hard-won skills. These worthies also formed the core of a very strong sense of community.

New players could even be useful and bond with the community, especially during invasions by sneaking around dragging unreleased corpses to the strategic 'hospital', a centralized spot that was defensible and where clerics and empaths gathered to rez and heal. The newbies might die by the score since they couldn't survive even one hit from the invaders, but they had much less to lose. Their courage dragging the...

That sounds like a good game. :) Always nice for the noobs to have something to do besides acting as meatshields.

[Elynor]

To the one who spoke about settlements getting weaker after a war.

That is the idea, that war has a lasting effect on the land...

Easy pickings? yeah, thats a reason why a king might not wage war, to not weaken themselves... then comes natural peace.

Rather than calling this permanent death, lets call it, not-respawning... you see, there already ARE forms of resurrecting in this game.

As far as I know, a level 9 cleric in TT Pathfinder can do the job, if you pay the price.

If you don´t pay the price, then you can reroll a heir character, with everything that is left over in the bank.

All of this talk about "investing" in characters to then lose them is simply amazing. Are you all really happy about the idea of play your own immortal D&D character that can NEVER die like in a Drizzt´s tale?

What is the point in being powerful when every one else also is?

You talk about leaving a lasting impact in the world, here is your chance to actually make a game that does just that without forced mechanics to please your ever lasting fantasy.

[Pax Shane Gifford]

If I play a Pathfinder character who dies, I only lose the time I put into making and playing the character, which sucks but is not that big a deal to me. If I play a PFO character who dies with permanent death rules in place, I lose the time I spent making and playing him, plus 15-20$ for every month that I've been playing him. That assuming that I can use the extra time left over for my last character's month of training on the new character, otherwise it could be more.

Pathfinder Online seems like it will be a game where you will die very often. Frequently your opponents will be other players, which means your average player will die in roughly half the fights he gets into (as every fight will end with one side dead; this is a simplification, but it makes my point). Do you really think that making it so you have to start retraining skills after (on average) every other fight leads to a more enjoyable game?

What this mechanic means is that the players with the strongest characters will be the ones who play the game the least, and thus die the least, with the most powerful characters being the ones who have been paid for since launch without ever being played on. Rewarding people for not playing the game seems backwards to me.

I'm not concerned with playing my own D&D character in PFO; you cannot have the same experience going from a tabletop game to an MMO. Equating immortal characters in a tabletop game to immortal characters in an MMO is wrong, because they are entirely different experiences.

As for you last comment, I don't see how forcing people to constantly make new characters causes a more lasting impact on the world. Could you clarify on how this mechanic would leave a lasting impact on the world (and also, are you speaking of the game-world, or the real world)?

[HalfOrc with a Hat of Disguise]

The problem with Table-Top translating to an MMO is that in the Table Top, unless your GM is a right bastard, you will generally be able to re-roll a new character of the average level of the party, with the 'correct' level of wealth/gear for your PC's character level, and play continues.

In an MMO, that's bypassing huge numbers of the content and sidestepping a lot of the busy-time that they use to make you play, and pay, for longer. It just does not translate well between the two mediums.

That said, I would love to see death in Pathfinder actually setting you back a significant amount of XP, even to the point it might 'deactivate' your latest Badge skill, until you recover enough XP to 're-qualify' for it.

This is not and should not be the offspring of a Bloopers reel and the Darwin Awards, people. Death needs to have a real cost, but one that won't send new players or curious players from MMOs screaming from the room. As much as I love a challenging game, there needs to be enough slack in it to allow for off-days, lag issues (God, who hasn't been stuck at their keyboard, screaming in frustration, as the WoW servers lag and your character stands there with the Derp face and eats all the murderous AoE attacks from a powerful Rare-Spawn?), 'HAAAAAX!' from cheating players and buggy mobs or mechanics that might spazz out at precisely the wrong moment.

[Elynor]

I think that you waste the same time and money in a character that dies than with a character who doesn´t

What you earn is a better experience through the real threat of real virtual death.

What you lose is a world filled with lvl 20 (or whatever the cap is) character.

Yes, I do think it is good to reroll and retrain, it is that threat what will make everyone try and behave, why? because being flagged as a criminal when killing someone will make your character simply not last much longer.

What strategy there is in warfare where no one can actually die?

Endless war is, therefore coming.

OFC with this system implemented, as I said before, the whole leveling should be rethought, as it makes no sense anymore to cap in 2-3 years (it should not be easy anyway ofc).

[Banesama]

I don't see why if you cap in 2-3 years as a cleric skills, you couldn't start training skills to take another 2 years to cap as a fighter or another class skills.