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Ran this today with 6 players, one pregen (monk). It was awesome. Two people had linguistics so they destroyed basically all the searching checks. They came really close to missing the secret door to rooms 11 and 12, but at the last minute went back and searched each room again.
Only combat was the book swarm. They actually made the perception to see the books moving, but then used a card catalog clue and saw they were missing a text in the room, so they opened the last shelf and wound up fighting the books.
The Guardian was a lot of fun because they immediately started touching and poking it while searching around it. They could not quite make the diplomacy to get the Guardian helpful even though I was really liberal with the RP bonuses to the checks, so they didn't get the intelligent item in the end, which is a shame, but they succeeded at everything else.
The cipher worked out well, after they figured out that you had to apply the rule backwards they got it really fast.
Lots of fun because they were willing to RP with the Guardian and caretaker. One of my new favorites to run.
Thanks Saint Caleth!
I can see The Guardian's reaction now..."Madam, could you kindly put that finger elsewhere other then my eye!" ;p
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Just ran this for the first time (second time ever GMing PFS), and my players had a blast. Went to the main library as the first room and promptly swept it clean, gaining all 3 Taldan Ciphers in one fell swoop. One PC then spent an hour poring over the message, trying every permutation possible - except applying the rule in reverse. In the post-game wrap up he realised his error, but took it in good humour (although he would have really liked the Codebreaker boon).
In fact, no-one got any boons - each missed out by the narrowest of narrow margins. Still, full gold and PP, and everyone had a good time.Almost did it without a combat, but they ignored the positioning data on the portrait legends and released the foo dogs. And they were just removing their illusion cards when Tobias came back to tell them to pack up. Skin of their shiny white teeth!
Gotta say, the foo dog encounter was less than stellar. 8 hardness and DR 5 means people were doing 13 damage with nothing to show for it. Having both those qualities on a single creature means that 1-2s are in a fair amount of trouble, since no-one will have an adamantine mace handy. When savvy players crunch the numbers and find they can only contribute on a crit, it deflates the enjoyment of the combat somewhat.
All in all though, they had a great time, and I did to. There's far more here than your typical hack-and-slash.
Thanks for the report and feedback on the scenario Stephen!
I think that it is awesome the players had a ton of fun and came so close to each of the riddles and ciphers. That was by far the hardest balancing act in the scenario, was to make them challenging enough without going off the deep end.
As for the foo dogs...I can understand the frustration from the players. My goal with the final encounter was to have a fight last more then 2 to 3 rounds, and then the Foo animal template was pointed out to me. From there it was an easy choice as to what animal it would be.
My question to you would be, did you feel the Foo animal encounter was a challenging fight for the group more then a demoralizing one? AND what was your party make up in terms of damage? Was it a mostly all physical damage group, or were there some spell damaging casters?
Gives me the informations!!! I WANTS ITS!!!
Please! :)
By your command, Kyle!
I had a five-player table with an APL of 2, so we were at Tier 1-2 without adjustment.
There was a brand-new sorceress, a bard, a fighter, a fighter/wizard on the path to becoming an eldritch knight and a summoner (and, of course, his eidolon).
The straight fighter was the one who dished out 13 damage only to see none go through , although he did perk up when he rolled a crit next round. The sorceress only had magic missile (but did knock down a damaged dog with 2 force damage). The star performer damage-wise was the eidolon, with S/B claws bypassing the DR.
The combat (and stony defense in particular) certainly made them think. "Hmm, so it hasn't moved since its skin went stony... maybe it's immobile?"
"So it went normal, attacked, then stoned up again... maybe it can't attack in that form..."
There were some experienced people at the table who almost know the Bestiaries backwards, so good job keeping them guessing!
The dogs didn't do well on initiative, so one was almost down before he had a chance to stone up (eidolon claw, with the magic missile finishing the job), and then the other was surrounded by party members who were hacking away. The aforementioned crit softened him up, and he went down promptly when he ran out of stony defense. So in the end, the combat still only took 2 or 3 rounds.
That's probably far more detail than necessary.
In closing, thank you for writing this scenario. The Disappeared was one of my favourites, and Library of the Lion is right there along with it!
RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16
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My main question is why can't the lion shield talk when taken out of the library? As a player, it was a giant disconnect to have a stimulating coversation with an intelligent item in game, only to find out it somehow can't talk after we spent resources on smuggling it out of the library.
I think the in-character explanation is that the shield isn't the full-blown version of Glorymane that guards the library. He didn't transfer himself into the shield; instead he imbued it with a small spark of his essence -- enough to make the shield an intelligent item, but not enough to have the full capabilities of the Lion in the library.
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Last night I had a table of 5 PCs in the low tier (lvl 1 Fighter, 1 Rogue, 1 Paladin, 2 Fighter and 5 Bard) Sidebar; we did have a lvl 1 Zen Archer leave the table after the mission briefing because he would not participate in theft, which I felt bad about and tried to encourage him to hurry up and make another character or play a pregen and join the game, but he declined...c'est la vie.
I think by the time the briefing is done the players are locked in. I don't think they can swap then, and I think leaving the table should earn a chronicle sheet with a lot of 0s and not the ability to freely replay it later.
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My main question is why can't the lion shield talk when taken out of the library? As a player, it was a giant disconnect to have a stimulating coversation with an intelligent item in game, only to find out it somehow can't talk after we spent resources on smuggling it out of the library.I think the in-character explanation is that the shield isn't the full-blown version of Glorymane that guards the library. He didn't transfer himself into the shield; instead he imbued it with a small spark of his essence -- enough to make the shield an intelligent item, but not enough to have the full capabilities of the Lion in the library.
...and keeping enough of himself in the library that he's still himself. Having the giant talking lion suddenly stop working would be a BIG red flag that something was afoot in the library. -10 deception points.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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I just wanted to say I played it (vs. GMing it) and had a blast. I played my Sczarni (trying to get him to 6th, and the boon didn't help my other PC much) The coversation with Glorymane while under the zone of truth was hillarious.
"Are you a Lion Blade?"
"Nope"
"Why are you here?"
"Looking for some books."
"Who are you?"
"Samiel Enyeto."
"Are you a thief?"
<jackie chan voice>"I'm an archeologist!"</jackie chan voice>
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** spoiler omitted **
I was the Judge for this game. It was a great table with some fun people. Thanks to all the players, who did very well.
I will address some of the comments under the caretaker spoiler.
There really was not a good way to detect the swarm. It is a hard fight to avoid unless you leave the cabinet unopened. Little weird, but I think the author was wanting at least one difficult to avoid combat.
As for the SR problem, well that was a mistake on my part. I apologize if anyone felt it caused a problem.
The Damage was 2d6 for being in the swarm plus 1d6 bleed. If someone left the swarm, they would no longer take the 2d6 damage but would continue to take the bleed. (Unless they stopped the bleed) But yeah the swarm could quickly be deadly.
As for the swarm shape the rules are clear under swarm traits,"The area occupied by a large swarm is completely shapeable, though the swarm usually remains in contiguous squares."
Again thanks for a fun table and the post-mordem.
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One question about the caretaker: How could she point stuff out to us/aid in research when she was blind? She was blind, right?
Well "Point out" is a turn of phrase. If you read her background, she was not always blind and in fact was blinded after she was caught reading from some of the books that she was not supposed to read from.
Besides, blind does not mean incapable and/or incompetent. A blind person living years in a library is still going to know a lot about it. She may not be able to be able to point to specific texts, but she is going to understand the layout of the library and know some general locations.
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Well "Point out" is a turn of phrase. If you read her background, she was not always blind and in fact was blinded after she was caught reading from some of the books that she was not supposed to read from.
Ah, that makes sense. Did that make her more likely to let "students" read the really ancient tomes, or were we just very convincing?
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** spoiler omitted **
I was the Judge for this game. It was a great table with some fun people. Thanks to all the players, who did very well.
I will address some of the comments under the caretaker spoiler.
** spoiler omitted **
Again thanks for a fun table and the post-mordem.
Thanks for the follow-up to my post! wo-ho!
It was a great game!
I was the witch in that group. What was sad, I spent the time going over the pouring over the Cypher's and finally comming up with a translation for them, only to be told all I had to do was find them, not actually solve the puzzle. Which seems odd.
So I spent most of the mod head down, until I needed to roll a skill check. In that regard I did miss a lot of the mod...
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I ran this last night. I did a lot of prep, including reading this thread. Reading it really helped.
My players seemed to really enjoy themselves. There was a bit of conflict around a alchemist player using fire to burn the book swarm, while other players wanted to safe the books.
The guardian was very well recieved and the warpriest player really wants to buy Glorymane later in his career. The blind caretaker was also well recieved. They bossed her around like lion blades, but then they started talking about their gnomes and the pathfinders and she made a run for the stairs. She did not get that far and the party tied her up and on the bed.
Later on they learned her backstory and they pledged themselves to help her. In return she agreed not to say anything.
My players also managed to finish the foo lion puzzle without triggering it.
I had a cheliax and a grand lodge player for faction missions. The grand lodge player did spend a long time trying to figure out the cipher, but in the end didn't figure it out.
I think all the players really liked the scenario. More like this please. There is a lot of GM prep though and as a new society GM I was a little intimidated, but I have years of GM experience overall so that helped.
Good job writers! :)
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I agree, upon reading (and playing this once), I am a big fan of the scenario. A welcome deviation from the norm of past scenarios I've participated in. I enjoy the idea of a scenario that has very little combat, but a great potential for Skills.
I have found; though, that running this via Play-by-Forum is a little more tedious and onorous than face-to-face. However, this is an inherent drawback to the play-by-forum style; since a lot of folks will end up waiting on others to post.
The biggest case of this was when the players split up upon firs entering the secret library. Some went to start searching in the Big Library, while others went to the small room. Of course, those in the small room finished well before those in the large room. Therefore, when the players from the small room were moving on to do something else, the players in the large room wanted to tag along too; instead of waiting and waiting and waiting (which, via PbF, can be a lot of waiting).
To help adjudicate this - and hopefully other PbF GMs will find this useful, if they did not come up with it on their own - I allowed the players to stop searching early. However, at the point they stopped, I took the total of the searching players' rolls, totaled how many clues they would find, and then prorated that number based upon the amount of time spent searching that particular area (always rounding down).
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This was maybe the most fun i had so far as GM.
Really nice, especially because you can go without any combat.
All players would give it a high ranking too, but:
The cipher is broken, sorry.
I see how it is working, but it is too complicated to be solved reliably even with the right cipher found.
Think about all the non native english speaker around the world next time please.
If you want to give the player a riddle to spent some time on,combining two independent cipher out of three or four total ones seems to me the better way.
Venture-Lieutenant, Finland—Tampere
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This whole thread is making me very scared to run this scenario later today for four very experienced players, three of whom are unafraid to speak their minds. I already ran The Wardstone Patrol for most of them, and now I'm looking at the possibility of getting that sort of reception again. Oh boy.
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RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16, RPG Superstar 2013 Top 16
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I ran this recently at Mace West, and the players crushed it. They had a couple of people with sky-high Linguistics and Knowledge checks, so they got all the texts every time. But they missed out on Glorymane because they got him to unlock the doors but didn't keep trying to make him friendlier.
The only Taldan character was the fighter with no skills, so he didn't contribute much except against the book swarm. I emphasized the key words on the portraits, so they were able to figure out the statue puzzle easily. They walked out with 10 minutes to spare, all the clues, and 15 deception points, and they seemed to enjoy it.
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I ran this on 3/23. I hated it and my players hated it. I think it should be taken off the website and rewritten. I will certainly avoid any scenarios written by the this author in the future.DonKeebals, I respectfully disagree with your views expressed above.
I am on the other end of the scale from you in view...
I'm going to agree with nosig. This is by far one of my favorite scenarios ran to date and my players loved it. Even the fighters who didn't have many skills still had ways to contribute.
RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 8
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I ran this on 3/23. I hated it and my players hated it. I think it should be taken off the website and rewritten. I will certainly avoid any scenarios written by the this author in the future.
Could you expand on this? I'm curious what about it you and your table didn't like. The author has frequented this thread in the past and cleared up some questions and concerns, so you might find answers to any qualms you have with the scenario.
Also, in general, when posting a review of a scenario, you'll find that your posts carry more weight when you take the time to fully explain yourself. Simply stating that you disliked the scenario and wish extreme measures be taken because of that isn't the best way to go about this.
Developer
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I'm catching up on the last couple dozen posts here, but it looks like Kyle and others have been handling questions well. Thanks for the feedback. I encourage you to right a review.
I ran this on 3/23. I hated it and my players hated it. I think it should be taken off the website and rewritten. I will certainly avoid any scenarios written by the this author in the future.Could you expand on this? I'm curious what about it you and your table didn't like. The author has frequented this thread in the past and cleared up some questions and concerns, so you might find answers to any qualms you have with the scenario.
Also, in general, when posting a review of a scenario, you'll find that your posts carry more weight when you take the time to fully explain yourself. Simply stating that you disliked the scenario and wish extreme measures be taken because of that isn't the best way to go about this.
Good advice. I am likewise curious to here what specifics presented difficulty. Extremely broad feedback is difficult for me to use productively (most true for negative feedback in which something needs to be fixed), and I imagine the same is true for Kyle.
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Venture-Lieutenant, Florida—Melbourne
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I ran this on 3/23. I hated it and my players hated it. I think it should be taken off the website and rewritten. I will certainly avoid any scenarios written by the this author in the future.
Having just played this at a Con 2 days ago I can see where this adventure is likely to generate strong responses one way or another. I played a bard and was able to come up with several clever solutions and we didn't have a single combat. I, the rogue, and a skill based cleric had tons of fun with this. Our summoner seemed to have fun as well, but the fighter and the barbarian mostly slept though it.
This mod, more that most, requires the GM to understand the type of group they are running.
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I had the surprising pleasure of playing this with a well-prepared newbie GM, and was very very thoroughly pleased with the experience (less the confusion on cipher vs. decipher).
I'm not entirely certain which tier we played, probably 4-5 with 4-player adjustment. Amazingly, both my Cleric and another player happened to have Profession(Librarian). That set us on a great start.
The rest of the scenario flowed very nicely onward. My best suggestion for improvement would be a suggestion to the GM to 'flavor up' the 'clue books' (the ones that give bonuses). These were *very smartly* generic bonuses that could be applied anywhere, but that left them sounding very metagamy. It would have been nice to get "you find a tome that makes reference to another specific collection that may have the information you're looking for -- use this bonus when you want".
In the end, I went back to maintain our presence in the room, but arrived just a bit late and the Librarian was already on his way back with the Lion Blades. Fortunately, I'd prayed for enthrall and was able to exuberantly pontificate at the door over a Nethysian text until the rest of the group creeped back in and feigned being stretched out studying on the floor (John/Kyle: Thank you Thank you for giving that day to change out spells!) Great moment (esp. when all the Blades failed the save).
The Puzzle: in The Disappeared, I was greatly upset that the fun of solving the cipher/puzzle was turned on its head with the fact that I was helping a faction that I detested, both in character and out. It was also rather drawn out. In Library, the puzzle itself was more fun, and more importantly the situation of the puzzle was far more pleasant. In the end, a bit frustrating not to have some clue that these were en[i]-coding ciphers instead of [i]de-coding ciphers, but still most pleasant.
Thank you for one of the nicest games I've had in a while.
As for the swarm shape the rules are clear under swarm traits,"The area occupied by a large swarm is completely shapeable, though the swarm usually remains in contiguous squares."
This is a very easy mistake (made it myself) - you've got to read the full context of that quote.
A single swarm occupies a square (if it is made up of nonflying creatures) or a cube (of flying creatures) 10 feet on a side, but its reach is 0 feet, like its component creatures. ... Larger swarms are represented by multiples of single swarms. The area occupied by a large swarm is completely shapeable, though the swarm usually remains in contiguous squares.
It's multiple/"Large" swarms that are shapeable, not single swarms. Single swarms maintain a 10'x10' shape (at least when possible).
Further discussion could take place in This Thread if desired.
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I'm catching up on the last couple dozen posts here, but it looks like Kyle and others have been handling questions well. Thanks for the feedback. I encourage you to right a review.
Good advice. I am likewise curious to here what specifics presented difficulty. Extremely broad feedback is difficult for me to use productively (most true for negative feedback in which something needs to be fixed), and I imagine the same is true for Kyle.I ran this on 3/23. I hated it and my players hated it. I think it should be taken off the website and rewritten. I will certainly avoid any scenarios written by the this author in the future.Could you expand on this? I'm curious what about it you and your table didn't like. The author has frequented this thread in the past and cleared up some questions and concerns, so you might find answers to any qualms you have with the scenario.
Also, in general, when posting a review of a scenario, you'll find that your posts carry more weight when you take the time to fully explain yourself. Simply stating that you disliked the scenario and wish extreme measures be taken because of that isn't the best way to go about this.
I ran this with 4 fighter types and 1 sorcerer and all but one were under 3rd level. This scenario is geared toward the cerebral "skill monkeys" and my players had a difficult time with it. I honestly figured the game would be done very quickly and it did only take 3.5 hours. But only because they were caught and gave the letter to the guards.
I wish I had my $4 back for this thing.
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Managing Creative Director (Starfinder)
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Curious, what if the group was 4 skill types and one fighter? Would the reversal of roles helped make this more enjoyable?
Did you not enjoy this scenario because of the lack of combat and emphasis on skills? Or was there something specific with how the skills were handled in this one?
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Well, to be fair, these scenarios should come with "suggested classes to bring". It would help especially with The Disappeared, Blakros Matrimony, Wardstone Patrol and Library of the Lion. Dare I suggest Paizo to start using tags to categorize scenarios? Combat, puzzle, roleplaying, journey, urban etc.
Also, regarding the scenario, there was discussion about giving puzzles to players that rely on player intelligence. Remember #1: The Silent Tide? It had a puzzle that sparked some opposition, as it had a puzzle that relied on player intelligence and more notably was solvable only in English, giving foreigners a tougher nut to crack.
Once prior leap of might, now becomes bird of white.
I'm not saying the puzzle is bad, in fact it was good. We played yesterday and for reasons that elude me I never realized I should *DECRYPT* an already encrypted message. Gladly the boon wasn't all that amazing that it'd bother to lose it.
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Did the players have no other characters to use?
No. I guess the players south of Atlanta don't keep a library of characters like many others and prefer to concentrate on one PC at a time.
Well, to be fair, these scenarios should come with "suggested classes to bring". It would help especially with The Disappeared, Blakros Matrimony, Wardstone Patrol and Library of the Lion. Dare I suggest Paizo to start using tags to categorize scenarios? Combat, puzzle, roleplaying, journey, urban etc.
That is a great idea
Curious, what if the group was 4 skill types and one fighter? Would the reversal of roles helped make this more enjoyable?
Did you not enjoy this scenario because of the lack of combat and emphasis on skills? Or was there something specific with how the skills were handled in this one?
I didn't like it because it's very one-sided for certain types of characters (and players) but more importantly, my players didn't have the fun I had hoped for. I actually feel sad that this is the scenario that gave me my first star in PFS.
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16, 2011 Top 32
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There is certainly something to be said for reading through the scenario before you run it. My first table had a good mix of skill and combat types and everyone had a part to play. My second table I explicitly warned them that this was a skill mission more than a combat mission and they chose their characters thusly; they had a good time and enjoyed the game.
Read the scenario before you run it.
Read it twice.
If the table of characters you have looks to be poorly suited to the scenario you have, tell them. If they choose to play with the characters they have, especially in a 1-5 tier where you could easily start a new character or play a pre-gen, then at least they went in with open eyes.
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I didn't like it because it's very one-sided for certain types of characters (and players) but more importantly, my players didn't have the fun I had hoped for. I actually feel sad that this is the scenario that gave me my first star in PFS.
Don't worry, Don. I think the takeaway lesson here is that not all scenarios are best-suited for every playstyle and every GMing style. 95% of PFS scenarios are one-sided in favor of the "slugfest" side, so you have plenty of opportunities to earn plenty of stars while running scenarios which are more suited to your own GMing style.
In other words, perhaps next time, you'll note the blurb associated with a scenario and choose to buy and run something else.
-Matt
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RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 8
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Thanks for the response, DonKeebals.
It looks like you're party of 5 was ill-prepared for some of the skill challenges present in the scenario, as others have said. However, that shouldn't alone spoil the entire game (although I can see how it might). It also sounds like your party wasn't well rounded in general. How did your party heal, for example? I notice a lack of divine magic in that group.
Also, would you mind expanding in more detail about the game? I'm hoping for something along the lines of this.
Party Breakdown: Classes, levels, how experienced were your players?
Combat Encounters: Round by round, how did they go?
Non-combat Encounters: What worked, what didn't? What challenges did your PCs face and how did they try to overcome them?
How they got caught: What lead to this? How did they respond?
Player reactions: How did your players feel about the game in general? Any specific points?
Unclear sections: Were there any places that your players or you as a GM were confused by the scenario? Any parts that were unclear or clunky?
This is the kind of feedback that can give us something concrete to look at, and better explain why the scenario wasn't a hit for your table.
Thanks again, I look forward to your response.