Even if you're pretty generous with with what you give people when their companion dies, you're still just a really bad Inquisitor when that happens, albeit one with a way better spell list. Hunter-with-no-pet just isn't likely to be a competitive choice no matter what you do.
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Sad but the play test will end with the hunter so underpowered. That any class can do there role better then them. I love the idea of this class. There has been no implementation of any good class ability's that make the hunter better with animal companions then any one else. Animal Focus can be replaced by items or spells. That is not a good class ability. I just hope the final version of Hunter gets something to make it worth playing. Right now any pet class, or archtype can do there role better.
Druid (Full Spell caster. Better at buffing there AC.) > Hunter
Ranger (Full BAB, and shares favored enemy damage.) > Hunter
Cavalier Huntmaster (Full BAB, Shares challenge damage. Gives animal companion special ability's beyond there normal.) > Hunter
This is what I did most of my comparisons on. As I have a level 4 huntmaster. There is no build I have come up with where the Hunter was better then the Cavalier archetype. At the one thing the hunter is suppose to be best at.
Barbarian Mad Dog (Full BAB, and Shares rage.) > Hunter
Any class with 3 feet's to spare. Natural Soul, Animal Ally, Boon Companion.
Fighter (Full BAB. Spending 3 feet's full animal companion. Still have extra.) > Hunter
What if the Hunter was allowed two animal companions? And I mean two animal companions that scale fully with the hunter. Perhaps the second one could be at druid level -3, so that the hunter could take boon companion to bring it up to full power?
I see this as an archtype option.
Whenever I look at a class I immediately ask 'what does this class allow me to DO that I couldn't otherwise have done?'. In the case of Hunter... the answer is currently nothing. You lose the best tiers of druid spells (7-9), give up Wild Shape, plus some other tasty flavor abilities. From the ranger you lose full BAB, Favored Terrain, Favored Enemy, and Combat Styles.
The Hunter should have full BAB. There is not enough 'extras' to justify a lower BAB, even with a full animal companion. Remember, you are also comparing the Hunter to a Ranger with Boon Companion.
Hunter should be a spontaneous caster.
Just my last minutes thoughts.
Also, please remember to update your survey responses for this and the other ACG classes now that the playtest period is coming to a close: survey link.
In a little bit I'll be posting a final update on some changes I'll be implementing in this class.
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Here's a heads-up on some hunter changes I'll be implementing:
* Instead of precise companion, just give Precise Shot as a bonus feat. Create alternative option for melee-focused hunters (who have no need for Precise Shot).
* Add an animal focus that grants evasion.
* Snake focus should be a typeless attack bonus.
* Strongly considering 6 skill ranks.
* Add way for hunter to revive dead animal companion at lower levels. Give hunter a bonus to compensate for dead animal companion (such as applying the no-duration animal focus to the hunter instead of the companion).
* Considering upgrades to the link to the companion, such as the "see through its eyes" ability that the beastmaster ranger archetype has, and something like the expert trainer ability that the cavalier has.
* I want it to have access to the druid and ranger spell lists.
* Still haven't decided whether hunters should be prepared or spontaneous casters. Making it spontaneous would certainly make the class stand out from the druid and ranger.
Here's a heads-up on some hunter changes I'll be implementing:
* Instead of precise companion, just give Precise Shot as a bonus feat. Create alternative option for melee-focused hunters (who have no need for Precise Shot).
* Add an animal focus that grants evasion.
* Snake focus should be a typeless attack bonus.
* Strongly considering 6 skill ranks.
* Add way for hunter to revive dead animal companion at lower levels. Give hunter a bonus to compensate for dead animal companion (such as applying the no-duration animal focus to the hunter instead of the companion).
* Considering upgrades to the link to the companion, such as the "see through its eyes" ability that the beastmaster ranger archetype has, and something like the expert trainer ability that the cavalier has.
* I want it to have access to the druid and ranger spell lists.
* Still haven't decided whether hunters should be prepared or spontaneous casters. Making it spontaneous would certainly make the class stand out from the druid and ranger.
You are doing the Lord's work, Sean K. Reynolds, especially with the snake style update. I hope you are going to let the Hunter take the lower level versions of spells that they have (so they can get stuff like strong jaw before Druids do).
I also think the expanded range for spell sharing would be rad (my "pet" improvement suggestion in the last two days), but the only thing that was ever totally necessary to sate my uneasiness was remedying the lack of attack accuracy.
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All look like good changes.
Might still want to look at adding abilities for after level 9-- it basically becomes just Teamwork feats and spells.
Ranger styles would help the class out (could just replace the precise shot feat) and help it feel more like a ranger hybrid; it would also solve the issue of qualifying for feats with 3/4 BAB and MAD attribute demands.
...I hope you are going to let the Hunter take the lower level versions of spells that they have (so they can get stuff like strong jaw before Druids do).
Just to clarify: Strong Jaw would then be gained at the same level as the Druid-- Animal Growth would come a level later than the Druid. (not to suggest you didn't know this)
Here's a heads-up on some hunter changes I'll be implementing:
* Instead of precise companion, just give Precise Shot as a bonus feat. Create alternative option for melee-focused hunters (who have no need for Precise Shot).
* Add an animal focus that grants evasion.
* Snake focus should be a typeless attack bonus.
* Strongly considering 6 skill ranks.
* Add way for hunter to revive dead animal companion at lower levels. Give hunter a bonus to compensate for dead animal companion (such as applying the no-duration animal focus to the hunter instead of the companion).
* Considering upgrades to the link to the companion, such as the "see through its eyes" ability that the beastmaster ranger archetype has, and something like the expert trainer ability that the cavalier has.
* I want it to have access to the druid and ranger spell lists.
* Still haven't decided whether hunters should be prepared or spontaneous casters. Making it spontaneous would certainly make the class stand out from the druid and ranger.
I agree these all look like good changes.
* I think spontaneous casting is definitely thematic, akin to having the tools needed at the right time, and being able to reuse them from a smaller pool of known tools - not that many del world hunters don't value preparation. As a spell-less Hunter devotee, my opinion may not be worth much here….
* 6 skill ranks - yes - as the Slayer got.
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Here's a heads-up on some hunter changes I'll be implementing:
* Instead of precise companion, just give Precise Shot as a bonus feat. Create alternative option for melee-focused hunters (who have no need for Precise Shot).
* Add an animal focus that grants evasion.
* Snake focus should be a typeless attack bonus.
* Strongly considering 6 skill ranks.
* Add way for hunter to revive dead animal companion at lower levels. Give hunter a bonus to compensate for dead animal companion (such as applying the no-duration animal focus to the hunter instead of the companion).
* Considering upgrades to the link to the companion, such as the "see through its eyes" ability that the beastmaster ranger archetype has, and something like the expert trainer ability that the cavalier has.
* I want it to have access to the druid and ranger spell lists.
* Still haven't decided whether hunters should be prepared or spontaneous casters. Making it spontaneous would certainly make the class stand out from the druid and ranger.
I'm a big fan of the 6 skill ranks. The hunter needs handle animal for her core class function, plus if she actually wants to hunt anything she's gonna need knowledge nature to know what she's hunting, survival to track what she is hunting, and perception to spot it. That right there is your 4 points, and it doesn't into account moving about the environment (stealth, swim, climb). I also always like to take knowledge:geography with my Rangers (it rarely comes up in games but i think it is thematic), but I couldn't figure out how to fit it into my test hunter's build. 6+ skill ranks is a big win for this class.
I know I'm a bit late to the conversation, but I would like to voice my opinion that the Hunter should NOT be a spontaneous caster. Yes, it is different, but different doesn't mean thematic nor does it mean good. It seems that the biggest complaints about this class are a lack of competitiveness, and spontaneous casting only exacerbates that. Having access to the entire druid (and maybe even ranger) list is a huge benefit mechanically. In addition, most of the spells I would see people using are not spells that need to be repeated throughout the day. Some spells (like barkskin) are going to be needed everyday and sometimes multiple times per day - that's ok, just prep 2 or 3. But versatility is a huge boon that shouldn't be overlooked. If you are planning on exploring a dungeon with a tight corridor system, it might be a good idea to prep reduce animal. If you are planning on exploring a dense forest instead, you would want that second level slot for something like wilderness soldiers. Spontaneous casting would be a burden to this class, and not in line with the theme of a cautions, calculated hunter.
tl;dr YES on 6+ skill ranks, NO on spontaneous casting
Hunter animal companion still needs some kind of boost to push it outside the normal bounds of an animal companion. I still think Templates or D10 hit die is the way to go.
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* Instead of precise companion, just give Precise Shot as a bonus feat. Create alternative option for melee-focused hunters (who have no need for Precise Shot).
A melee hunter could benefit from being able to ignore cover provided by his beasts, when fighting with a reach weapon. Right now, there is no way to avoid the cover penalty with a melee weapon. This is specific to reach-weapon hunters, so other melee hunters won't benefit.
Thank You Sean for all your interaction and this final update post.
Well done.
All looks good Sean, some interesting and surprising, though I still strongly like to see spontaneous casting for practical purposes, especially when hunter looses animal companion, and as others added for thematic purpose.
Oops, this thread was supposed to be locked when the playtest closed. Fixed!