I want a lap dog for a familiar!


Pathfinder Society

Shadow Lodge 2/5

Something along the lines of "toy" breeds like the Shi-zhu or Cavalier King Charles spaniel. Is it at all possible for me to do this with the PFS restriction on re-skinning animals?

5/5

I don't know off the top of my head if any sources make dogs legal familiars. If so, one presumes its coloration and hair length are yours to choose. However, its size is not negotiable.

(If not, you're just out of luck.)

Sovereign Court 5/5 RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8

Yeah, no tiny dogs. I'd kill for a chihuahua familiar named Rocky.

Shadow Lodge 2/5

The stats for foxes work perfectly and so does a Young creature Template but, again, the re-skinning and no add-ons that aren't archetypes issue prevails. :(

3/5 RPG Superstar 2013 Top 16

As I understand it, the rule about re-skinning only refers to re-skinning into something that has its own stats. Since there are no stats for a small dog familiar, and a fox is essentially a kind of dog anyway, I don't see a problem with it.

Shadow Lodge 2/5

I don't know. The Guide seemed pretty specific and that my not fly with some GMs... I just don't want to get penalized for on the edge of the rules-box thinking.

The Exchange 5/5 RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16

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For what it's worth, I'm a pretty by-the-book GM. Foxes are small canids. As long as you make it clear to the GM what you'reup to, I wouldn't have a problem with considering "Shih Tzu" as a Tien breed of fox.


The srd site has an entry for tiny dogs using fox stats, but no dog familiars outside 3rd party stuff. Might have the source listed

Shadow Lodge 2/5

Baron Ulfhamr wrote:
The srd site has an entry for tiny dogs using fox stats, but no dog familiars outside 3rd party stuff.

I don't have/use any third-party stuff anyway. I was just trying to figure out how/if there was a way to do this. But, thank you for trying.

I wish the Animal Archive had something to address this. Maybe they could do an Animal Archive 2? I just think it's silly that you can have all these tiny/small, exotic and mildly domestic animals (i.e. Goats, pigs, cats, rats,foxes, etc.) as familiars and not have similar options for a dog for the same uses.

I mean, sure, thematically speaking, many of the creatures you can choose as a familiar are kind of obvious for spellcasters like witches and wizards, but when you can have things like a platypus or armadillo but not a cairn terrier or dachshund it feels a little absurd. Doesn't it?

Granted, some small dog breeds are completely for prized pet status only but others are just the smaller end of hunting and working dog.
Heck, Corgis were bred and used to help with cooking and most terriers were used to hunt and kill small game or take out rodent infestations when cats were not available/favorable due to superstitious and religious fervor all but wiped out cat populations in some places.

I just think that as far as intelligent, versatile animals go, small and tiny dogs should be available as familiars and put into a format that is acceptable to PFS standards!

(Sorry, this turned into a rant.)

Shadow Lodge 2/5

But, back to my original question.
Does anyone have any idea besides what has been suggested so far?

Grand Lodge 5/5 Regional Venture-Coordinator, Baltic

Kezzie Redlioness wrote:

But, back to my original question.

Does anyone have any idea besides what has been suggested so far?

What about a donkey rat or a dire rat?

link.

Shadow Lodge 2/5

Auke Teeninga wrote:
What about a donkey rat or a dire rat?

*giggle* Cute, but not quite what I had in mind...


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Kezzie Redlioness wrote:
Baron Ulfhamr wrote:
The srd site has an entry for tiny dogs using fox stats, but no dog familiars outside 3rd party stuff.

I don't have/use any third-party stuff anyway. I was just trying to figure out how/if there was a way to do this. But, thank you for trying.

...

I just think that as far as intelligent, versatile animals go, small and tiny dogs should be available as familiars and put into a format that is acceptable to PFS standards!

(Sorry, this turned into a rant.)

No no, you misread me. There are no dog familiars per se, but there are fox familiars, also this:

Ultimate Equipment wrote:
Lap Dog: These tiny dogs are commonly kept as pets. They cannot be combat trained, but can serve as noisy-but-skittish watch creatures. Lap dogs have the same statistics as foxes.

This already seems possible by the RAW w/o 3rd party. Foxes can be familiars, and lap dogs are (essentially) foxes, ergo lap dogs can be familiars (so long as you keep fox stats).

Shadow Lodge 2/5

Baron Ulfhamr wrote:

No no, you misread me. There are no dog familiars per se, but there are fox familiars, also this:

Ultimate Equipment wrote:
Lap Dog: These tiny dogs are commonly kept as pets. They cannot be combat trained, but can serve as noisy-but-skittish watch creatures. Lap dogs have the same statistics as foxes.
This already seems possible by the RAW w/o 3rd party. Foxes can be familiars, and lap dogs are (essentially) foxes, ergo lap dogs can be familiars (so long as you keep fox stats).

Ah, I see what you're saying. Sorry, and thank you. I just keep hearing horror stories about GMs who will basically rip you a new toot-hole for re-skinning in any way shape or form. That's mostly what I'm worried about.

The Exchange 5/5 RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16

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Kezzie, I would hope that the horror stories which you're hearing are exaggerations, that there are no PFS GMs who "rip" on players for anything short of immediately-dangerous behavior. If there are, I would hope that coordinators or venture officers would intervene and curtail that kind of antagonistic interaction.

(Which is not to say that every GM allows everything. But rather, that table judges ought to be polite, explain the rules, and offer work-arounds in a spirit of helping people have fun.)

5/5 5/55/55/5

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Just get a rat and call it a designer dog.

Seriously, is there any difference? (besides the rat being cuter)

Can't believe someone took a wolf and turned it into... that.

Shadow Lodge 2/5

Really Nores? Really?

Not all small breed dogs are as annoying or useless as people say they are. A lot of times, like with ANY trained/trainable animal does, it has a lot to do with how the owners and/or breeders treat the individual animal from birth to death. And many of those are simply smaller versions of the larger hunting and working dogs. Some of the behaviors that are problematic for owners that don't UNDERSTAND the breed's history and traits are just apart of the breeds original purpose.
(Like hunting, aiding in common tasks, etc.)

You may as well complain that cars are not oxen-drawn wagons with rusty nails in the seat.

I'm not asking for an in-game combat buddy/cannon fodder like some people use their animals for. I am looking for an aesthetically-pleasing, intelligent companion-breed dog for my witch's spellbook/research assistant and I want to do so in a way that doesn't always scream "HEY, WITCH OVER HERE!" and is less conspicuous in social situations with high powered NPCs.


Chris Mortika wrote:

Kezzie, I would hope that the horror stories which you're hearing are exaggerations, that there are no PFS GMs who "rip" on players for anything short of immediately-dangerous behavior. If there are, I would hope that coordinators or venture officers would intervene and curtail that kind of antagonistic interaction.

(Which is not to say that every GM allows everything. But rather, that table judges ought to be polite, explain the rules, and offer work-arounds in a spirit of helping people have fun.)

They exist.

The Exchange 5/5 RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16

I'm afraid I don't understand your point, MrSin.


Chris Mortika wrote:
I'm afraid I don't understand your point, MrSin.

An example of one what someone might consider one of those horror stories. People's opinions on things tend to vary. Just look at the reaction to comparing a dog to a rat.

The Exchange 5/5 RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16

For those of you newer to the campaign, MrSin linked to a long thread I started two years ago. Some folks came to my table on Sunday morning at GenCon with something that the campaign didn't allow, and I tried to find common ground with them. The situation didn't work as well as either of us hoped, and they left the table under as good a terms as we could manage.

MrSin, I'll hold that up as an example of a GM attempting to be polite, to explain the rules, and offer work-arounds in a spirit of helping people have fun. If that's what qualifies as a "horror story" then we're in pretty good shape.


Chris Mortika wrote:
MrSin, I'll hold that up as an example of a GM attempting to be polite, to explain the rules, and offer work-arounds in a spirit of helping people have fun. If that's what qualifies as a "horror story" then we're in pretty good shape.

Well... That comes off as a little arrogant to me personally. The point was that different people have different perceptions on things. What you consider polite and well handled I consider a disaster and lacking empathy.

The Exchange 5/5 RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16

Let's see if I understand the last couple of posts correctly.

Kezzie: I've heard that some people are mean.
Me I hope not.
MrSin They are, and you're chief among them.
Me I think you're mistaken. I tried to resolve an issue with respect.
MrSin Says you. You're arrogant. You caused a disaster. You lack empathy.

I don't understand how this turned into a personal attack, chum. Please stop.

May I suggest that only one of us was at that table? You have no idea what was, or was not, a disaster. (Certainly, the four guys who stayed at the table and I had a great time.) And Kevin, the gentleman of the couple, has explained his position.

3/5

MrSin wrote:
Chris Mortika wrote:

Kezzie, I would hope that the horror stories which you're hearing are exaggerations, that there are no PFS GMs who "rip" on players for anything short of immediately-dangerous behavior. If there are, I would hope that coordinators or venture officers would intervene and curtail that kind of antagonistic interaction.

(Which is not to say that every GM allows everything. But rather, that table judges ought to be polite, explain the rules, and offer work-arounds in a spirit of helping people have fun.)

They exist.

That is a terrible example. Completely aside from Chris Mortika having a vested interest in defending his own actions that incident involved literally the only scenario where the difference between a dog and a pig could have an actual concrete effect on the outcome.

More tellingly, If I remember that thread Mike mentioned that he had allowed the exact same reskin at one of his tables when the change in flavor did not have a bearing on the mechanics of the scenario. Lets take home the lesson from the campaign leadership and not get bent out of shape over a this kind of fluff substitution unless it is the 1% of the time that for some reason it winds up actually mattering.

I think that the take home message is not one about horrible DMs, but one about how Chris was in the unenviable position of encountering a reskin that should have been let slide in any situation except for the exact scenario that was being run. This is proven further by the fact that we got both sides of the story in that thread and the other person involved was remarkably evenhanded and reasonable about it even if he did get driven from the table.

MrSin wrote:
Chris Mortika wrote:
MrSin, I'll hold that up as an example of a GM attempting to be polite, to explain the rules, and offer work-arounds in a spirit of helping people have fun. If that's what qualifies as a "horror story" then we're in pretty good shape.
Well... That comes off as a little arrogant to me personally. The point was that different people have different perceptions on things. What you consider polite and well handled I consider a disaster and lacking empathy.

That retelling is not so much arrogant as it is just spun in his own favor which is really a completely natural response. I find the "work-around" of your character is just deluded to be unbelievably condescending but that is really the only reasonable objection to how it was handled judging from reading both sides of the story.

3/5

Get a weasel and tell everyone it is a dog

Reallife example

Go to http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/04/08/ferrets-rodents-sold-as-toy-poodle s-argentina_n_3037094.html.

Liberty's Edge 4/5 5/55/5 **

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Maps, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Charter Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

Is a weasel canine?

4/5 5/55/5 **

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I have no hard feelings towards Chris....

*Woof!*

Shadow Lodge 2/5

1. No, a weasel is an ermine.
2. Those people were dumb and got ripped off while traveling abroad
3. I just don't feel that a more common place animal can't serve as written in PFS.

Maybe, not even a tiny dog. A small dog would be nice. But again, not on the lists of available familiars. :(

5/5 RPG Superstar 2012 Top 4

None of these strike your fancy?

Sczarni 2/5

Kenzie, since ultimate equipment has what your looking for, here is a toy breed that should fit your idea: Japanese Chin. Originally a Chinese breed, it was gifted to the ruler of Japan and the breed slowly changed over time (line breeding and all that) and later became the name we use today. What is notable about it is both Buddhist and Christian monks would carry this dog with them on their travels (like a familiar), often carrying them by holding their hands in front of them and letting their robe sleeves envelop them for protection and comfort.

Here is the wiki article though it is missing some info...and it has pics.

Go to Japanese Chin.

Grand Lodge

I too would have preferred a small dog familiar, a 17 pound Lakeland Terrier would have been ideal. I've got a Raven, but much like V, I often forget her existence entirely.

Shadow Lodge 2/5

It's not that I don't like any of the other options that are available. I just wanted something that feels like it should be available but really isn't for multiple reasons in PFS.
I can BUY a pet via Ultimate Equipment, but that doesn't make it a spellcaster's familiar.

Grand Lodge 3/5

Create a homunculus in the shape of a dog??

Donkey rat!!......it could be dog-esque.....


Rhapsodic College Dropout wrote:
Create a homunculus in the shape of a dog??

Pfft, if we're going to be that expensive get a cat familiar, swap weapon finesse for extra item slot, and use a hat of disguise. Its more than intelligent enough to use it. You now have a cat that can be disguised as a highly fashionable dog. Max out your ranks in bluff and if they ask why its meowing tell them they're crazy, dogs don't meow! Later when you have too much money, you can use a circlet of speaking to let it speak its mind and you no longer have to worry about meowing, you can even have it woof in the presence of others, though you will have to use your (at this point) large bluff check to tell them they're crazy, dogs don't talk!

Sczarni 2/5

Funny aside Mr. Sin, many Japanese Chins have a whining bark that sounds like a meow....oh and they really can also do a whining bark that sounds like "momma" (used to freak out my friends to hear a dog 'talk')

Shadow Lodge 2/5

MrSin wrote:
Pfft, if we're going to be that expensive get a cat familiar, swap weapon finesse for extra item slot, and use a hat of disguise. Its more than intelligent enough to use it. You now have a cat that can be disguised as a highly fashionable dog. Max out your ranks in bluff and if they ask why its meowing tell them they're crazy, dogs don't meow! Later when you have too much money, you can use a circlet of speaking to let it speak its mind and you no longer have to worry about meowing, you can even have it woof in the presence of others, though you will have to use your (at this point) large bluff check to tell them they're crazy, dogs don't talk!
Shfish wrote:
Funny aside Mr. Sin, many Japanese Chins have a whining bark that sounds like a meow....oh and they really can also do a whining bark that sounds like "momma" (used to freak out my friends to hear a dog 'talk')

Yes, well... Funny as that idea is, a cat is still a cat.

Even ones that bark.

Shadow Lodge 2/5

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I just wish someone would get creative enough to simply put out more flexible rules for how an animal/magical beast becomes a viable familiar. Small to diminutive seems to be the size range, but what makes some creatures familiar material and others not?


Kezzie Redlioness wrote:
I just wish someone would get creative enough to simply put out more flexible rules for how an animal/magical beast becomes a viable familiar. Small to diminutive seems to be the size range, but what makes some creatures familiar material and others not?

You could have a dog for a familiar in a home game easily I'd bet. PFS just happens to be limited to whatever's written at the moment, and unfortunately that means dogs aren't legal for PFS. You've got sloths, dinosaurs, and giant fleas, but no dice for dogs.


I don't see why the fox familiar isn't a good stand in. Even if the Rules forbid re-skinning, a toy dog uses fox stats anyway by the book, and both being Tiny canines are similar anyway.

The Exchange 5/5

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

but there's nothing stating toy dogs can be familiars.
at least with the pirate adventure paths and some blog posts, official reskins that can be used as familiars exist for those creatures.

if there's something that says "toy dogs can be familiars, use the fox stats as stated in ultimate equipment" then you're golden.

what about a fox with really long hair, that you groom to look like a toy dog w/ prestidigitation? lol

Shadow Lodge 2/5

Little update for my zombie thread here.

I found out that Icanhave a toy breed dog as a familiar.

As per the description from Ultimate Equipment:

" Lap Dog: These tiny dogs are commonly kept as pets. They cannot be combat trained, but can serve as noisy-but-skittish watch creatures. Lap dogs have the same statistics as foxes."

Problem now solved. I don't know HOW I missed that...*Face-palm*

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