Cevah, what do you mean by 'SKR did'? Do you have a url or quote?
Regarding the "math error" there is no math error.
WBL does not count what they can sell stuff at. It counts purchase price or, in the case of crafted items for the crafter only, the crafting cost.
PC Wealth By Level: If a PC has an item crafting feat, does a crafted item count as its Price or its Cost?
It counts as the item's Cost, not the Price. This comes into play in two ways.If you're equipping a higher-level PC, you have to count crafted items at their Cost. Otherwise the character isn't getting any benefit for having the feat. Of course, the GM is free to set limits in equipping the character, such as "no more than 40% of your wealth can be used for armor" (instead of the "balanced approach" described on page 400 where the PC should spend no more than 25% on armor).
If you're looking at the party's overall wealth by level, you have to count crafted items at their Cost. Otherwise, if you counted crafted items at their Price, the crafting character would look like she had more wealth than appropriate for her level, and the GM would have to to bring this closer to the target gear value by reducing future treasure for that character, which means eventually that character has the same gear value as a non-crafting character--in effect neutralizing any advantage of having that feat at all.
—Sean K Reynolds, 01/13/12
These are not 'my' notions, they are from the FAQ.
A) You count price towards WBL (in FAQ).
B) You count cost towards WBL for the person who crafted the item only (also in FAQ).
Both of my examples were correct (although I now see I somehow cut off the end of the first example you still get the point).
To maintain the guidelines (something you do not appear to be interested in but others may be) there is a lot of work involved for the GM if one person is crafting for the rest of the group.
Thus, the only 'notions' I have are how to deal with that problem. The gentlemans agreement or my house rule reduce my workload as a GM when there are crafters in the party because I will not have to constantly redress the WBL problem that a crafter crafting for other people creates.
- Gauss
I find it interesting that people abuse their kingdom that way because my group does the opposite. After taking our (reasonable) cut we deposit any extra resources into the kingdom.
- Gauss
Which would be the GM's responsibility, not the designers'.
Cool ideas
On topic:
A +5 weapon @ lvl 5 would be impossible because you can't spend more than 50% of your WBL on one single item as per RAW.
Not exactly. That "rule" is for creating a character above 1st level. The guidelines for WBL don't state what a character is allowed to spend their wealth on. They are usually sensible guides though.
Can a 5th level character make a +5 weapon? Yes. Assuming they have the wealth and time available. Both of those variables are controlled by the GM, so it probably won't happen often. But they certainly can.
Kindly note that you can 'interpret' the requirement rule for EACH level of enhancement, just like you could for each level of, say, brilliant, wounding, etc.
Thus, if you're 5th level, you add +5 for not meeting the requirement of a +2 item, +5 for a +3 item, +5 for a +4 Item, and +5 for the +5 item.
Resulting in a substantial DC 35 spellcraft check to make a +5 sword at 5th level...if you want to rule it that way. Apply the same rule to expensive fixed effects to get them out of the easy reach of low level casters.
So a low level crafter can probably do the stretch to make a +2 item, and MIGHT be able to do a +3 (requiring a 19), would be really stretching for a +4 (DC 27) and +5 is not in the picture at DC 35.
=============
Kindly note that you don't need to double the power of a group by doubling the effective WBL.
Increasing everyone's gear by an effective +1 can easily run roughshod over a typically balanced encounter.
For instance, +1 to Armor, Ring of Prot and Nat Armor is +3 AC. It may not sound like much, but across the party, that's substantial. A +2 Dex item raises this to +4 AC.
A +2 Str item and +1 to your weapon is +2 TH/DMG that you didn't have before. A +1 Luck save item is +1 to saves that weren't there. A +2 Con item is more hit points and bonus to fort saves.
It's like walking around with permanent buffs for your level. Combined with actual spellcasting, it can easily turn normal encounters into a route, simply because you're functioning at 1-2 levels higher, especially your melee and archers.
The power in crafting is in 'doubling' the benefits you get out of a specific set of money. You upgrade the armor...great! Upgrade the shield as well, half price, +2 AC for the price of +1. Ring of Prot and Amulet of Nat AC at the same time.
Str booster and Con booster. Wis booster and Dex booster. Etc.
It's not taking a +1 item to +2, although that is cheaper as well. It's adding more layers, not deepening the existing ones.
Also, this effect increases by levels, as primary items become very expensive, cutting the cost in half allows you to reap substantial benefits. While making your own +3 sword is barely possible instead of buying a +2 (9000 gp vs 8000 gp), making a +7 sword for 49k vs buying a +5 one for 50k is much nicer. At higher levels, you can buy a +7 for the price of making a +10!
==Aelryinth
WBL should be moderated with logic and with regards to verisimilitude. Creating a leveled character doesn't mean he was popped in naked into the world with a lump sum of cash to spend on goods. The WBL is supposed to represent acquisition (and loss) over time.Cool ideas
On topic:
A +5 weapon @ lvl 5 would be impossible because you can't spend more than 50% of your WBL on one single item as per RAW.
Not exactly. That "rule" is for creating a character above 1st level. The guidelines for WBL don't state what a character is allowed to spend their wealth on. They are usually sensible guides though.
I am not disagreeing with that. What I am saying is that if you have been playing a character who has obtained the wealth you get to say how that wealth gets spent. You aren't limited to 50% on one item. I AGREE that the guidelines are good for creating a leveled character that is starting with WBL.
I disagreed with the previous statement that it wasn't possible because WBL says so. If I start a character at first level and at 5th level want to liquidate my wealth, or somehow lucked out and am rich at 5th level, then I get to choose how I spend my money. If I want I can spend it all on one item, even if I have 100x what WBL says I should have.
I don't think it's smart. In fact I would say that it is suicidal if you plan to continue adventuring. But saying it isn't allowed because WBL says so is erroneous and a huge pet peeve of mine.
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Bring back xp cost for crafting magic items
Cevah, what do you mean by 'SKR did'? Do you have a url or quote?
Looks like you found it already.
Regarding the "math error" there is no math error.
WBL does not count what they can sell stuff at. It counts purchase price or, in the case of crafted items for the crafter only, the crafting cost.
Here is where we disagree. If my PC gets random useless treasure, it's value to him is what he can sell it for, not what it cost new. If this same "new price" treasure is instead usable, he would not be selling it. Therefore, any treasure created to be sold by the PCs is valued at what they can get for it. Your statement indicates you feel otherwise.
PC Wealth By Level: If a PC has an item crafting feat, does a crafted item count as its Price or its Cost?
It counts as the item's Cost, not the Price. This comes into play in two ways.If you're equipping a higher-level PC, you have to count crafted items at their Cost. Otherwise the character isn't getting any benefit for having the feat. Of course, the GM is free to set limits in equipping the character, such as "no more than 40% of your wealth can be used for armor" (instead of the "balanced approach" described on page 400 where the PC should spend no more than 25% on armor).
If you're looking at the party's overall wealth by level, you have to count crafted items at their Cost. Otherwise, if you counted crafted items at their Price, the crafting character would look like she had more wealth than appropriate for her level, and the GM would have to to bring this closer to the target gear value by reducing future treasure for that character, which means eventually that character has the same gear value as a non-crafting character--in effect neutralizing any advantage of having that feat at all.
—Sean K Reynolds, 01/13/12
These are not 'my' notions, they are from the FAQ.
A) You count price towards WBL (in FAQ).
Huh? You just bolded the text saying is counts as Cost.
B) You count cost towards WBL for the person who crafted the item only (also in FAQ).
Nope. It sais "If you're looking at the party's overall wealth by level, you have to count crafted items at their Cost." The FAQ does not say only for the crafter. The part you bolded after this is a reason by negative example the shows why using Price is wrong.
Both of my examples were correct (although I now see I somehow cut off the end of the first example you still get the point).
As the first example was clearly unfinished, I skipped it.
To maintain the guidelines (something you do not appear to be interested in but others may be) there is a lot of work involved for the GM if one person is crafting for the rest of the group.
Thus, the only 'notions' I have are how to deal with that...
As the FAQ does not call out applying different standards to crafter and other party members, I read it as all crafted items count as half for WBL.
I don't care about pegging the PCs to the exact number, or even +/- some amount. I do care if the amount varies significantly between PCs (uneven distribution) or if is varies significantly to level (per the WBL guidelines). I consider significant by level to be more like +/- 50%. You seem to want something a lot closer. I have no issue with that, as I consider that table variation. As long as you are consistent, my PCs can plan for it.
To me, in my limited experience as a DM, I do not see a significant difference in effort just because the PCs have a little more or less than expected. Since I usually play in games with 5-7 PCs, they are not on the standard track anyway, so all modules need tweaking anyways. For homebrew modules (like I have made) you design for what the PCs can do, not what the generic 4 person 15 point buy classic Fighter/Thief/Wizard/Cleric party can do. Yes, it is work. If it is too much work for you to have fun, let someone else try. That is why I did not DM in 4E.
/cevah
Kindly note that you can 'interpret' the requirement rule for EACH level of enhancement, just like you could for each level of, say, brilliant, wounding, etc.
Thus, if you're 5th level, you add +5 for not meeting the requirement of a +2 item, +5 for a +3 item, +5 for a +4 Item, and +5 for the +5 item.
Resulting in a substantial DC 35 spellcraft check to make a +5 sword at 5th level...if you want to rule it that way. Apply the same rule to expensive fixed effects to get them out of the easy reach of low level casters.
So a low level crafter can probably do the stretch to make a +2 item, and MIGHT be able to do a +3 (requiring a 19), would be really stretching for a +4 (DC 27) and +5 is not in the picture at DC 35.
Except, if that was I rule I would have to face, I would not create a +5 item from a non magic sword. I would instead upgrade the sword 5 times:
1) non-magic to +1 .. CL 3 made, no +5 DC this time; DC 8 (5+3)2) +1 to +2 .. CL 6 missing, add +5 this time; DC 16 (5+6+5)
3) +2 to +3 .. CL 9 missing, add +5 this time; DC 19 (5+9+5)
4) +3 to +4 .. CL 12 missing, add +5 this time; DC 22 (5+12+5)
5) +5 to +5 .. CL 15 missing, add +5 this time; DC 25 (5+15+5)
Since you say DC 27 is stretching, but obtainable at level 5, then you can do this. You just have to stop after each plus added, and start a new upgrade-magic-item the next day. This does not even slow you down.
Since the DC without interpreting the rules this way is also DC 25 for a +5 w/o CL with the same exact time and cost, I see no benefit for making the rules complicated to use.
/cevah
Bring back xp cost for crafting magic itemsWhy?
All that ever did was make the lowest level party member the most powerful - a very counter-intuitive thing to do.
Entertaining the idea for a moment, you would have to make the XP costs for crafting items huge in order for them to serve as an actual deterrent - "I will level up one or two encounters after you guys, but I have all these cool magic items" is not actually any kind of cost... but being 1 level or more behind for each permanent item you craft would actually deter the behavior.
...and last but not least, XP cost for crafting is on the list of "dumbest things that the 3rd edition design team ever thought of" because up to that point in the game crafting items was reserved for high level but was actually encouraged because magic items gained you experience.
Why use 3E XP rules? Use 1E XP rules instead. Your received XP for successfully crafting. :-)
In 3E, my char just made 14th level when everyone else made 15th. That is 13.333 encounters by the book. [Actually a little less than that, as my lower level char gets more from the same # of XP.]
/cevah
Kindly note that you can 'interpret' the requirement rule for EACH level of enhancement, just like you could for each level of, say, brilliant, wounding, etc.
Thus, if you're 5th level, you add +5 for not meeting the requirement of a +2 item, +5 for a +3 item, +5 for a +4 Item, and +5 for the +5 item.
Resulting in a substantial DC 35 spellcraft check to make a +5 sword at 5th level...if you want to rule it that way. Apply the same rule to expensive fixed effects to get them out of the easy reach of low level casters.
So a low level crafter can probably do the stretch to make a +2 item, and MIGHT be able to do a +3 (requiring a 19), would be really stretching for a +4 (DC 27) and +5 is not in the picture at DC 35.
Except, if that was I rule I would have to face, I would not create a +5 item from a non magic sword. I would instead upgrade the sword 5 times:
1) non-magic to +1 .. CL 3 made, no +5 DC this time; DC 8 (5+3)
2) +1 to +2 .. CL 6 missing, add +5 this time; DC 16 (5+6+5)
3) +2 to +3 .. CL 9 missing, add +5 this time; DC 19 (5+9+5)
4) +3 to +4 .. CL 12 missing, add +5 this time; DC 22 (5+12+5)
5) +5 to +5 .. CL 15 missing, add +5 this time; DC 25 (5+15+5)Since you say DC 27 is stretching, but obtainable at level 5, then you can do this. You just have to stop after each plus added, and start a new upgrade-magic-item the next day. This does not even slow you down.
Since the DC without interpreting the rules this way is also DC 25 for a +5 w/o CL with the same exact time and cost, I see no benefit for making the rules complicated to use.
/cevah
you're Interpreting what I posted wrong.
You don't have the Required CL. You don't have the required CL four times over. It doesn't matter if you're upgrading once or five times. You don't have the CL.
Upgrading from a +2 to a +3 would not obviate the fact that you don't have the requirement to do get to +2, so you're missing TWO requirements as you try to upgrade, and so you take a +10 Penalty, you don't 'reset' it to +5.
That would make absolutely no sense at all. I mean, if you're making something +5, you have to make it +2, 3 and +4 first, and you don't have the proper CL for any of those. So it's going to get harder and harder for each step, not 'just as easy'.
The 'other' argument is the +5 enhancement bonus, like Vorpal. You could trot out the argument that since you never upgrade it from +1 to +5, there's only one CL check.
Nope. You don't have the CL to do +2,3 or 4 enhancements, those are 'required' to do a +5. So, +20 to the check for you!
It's a self-balancing system, is all. Note that technically your level 5 guy might be able to do it with a buff or two, and taking 20. It would just take him a gawdawful long time to make a +5 weapon...which is exactly what happens when someone with low skills is trying to make a masterpiece. They take forever.
==Aelryinth
Cevah, my math stated they got 20,000gp in coin. I did not state treasure. WBL is not based on how much treasure they get, it is based on the current amount of equipment by price that they have.
The WBL FAQ provides an exception for price by stating that the crafter (not anyone else) can count the cost of crafted items towards WBL instead of price.
For clarity:
1) You count the price of any equipment you possess towards your WBL total.
2) The crafter has an exception to this that allows him to count cost for equipment that he has crafted.
3) Other people are not allowed to count cost for items they did not craft.
Regarding your statement about selling stuff:
Lets say you had 10,500gp worth of equipment (by price) and are at level 5 WBL (10,500gp).
You sell an item priced at 4,000gp for half and now have 8,500gp worth of equipment.
Because of that you are now 2,000gp short of WBL and the GM will need to make up the difference at some point if he uses WBL at a guideline.
Table 12-5 actually takes this into account by giving you 30-40% more than Table 12-4 (WBL) does. The difference between the two are are assumed to be lost via sold items and consumables.
Table 12-5 is used for handing out treasure in the game while Table 12-4 (WBL) is mainly used for creating a character from scratch. However, Table 12-4 (WBL) is also useful for doing a spot check of what people's wealth is at in a campaign.
- Gauss
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Aelryinth, there is nothing to support that each + is a separate qualifier. The caster level requirement for an enhancement bonus is bonus times 3.
Either you meet the Caster level or you do not. The rules even state that you must meet the highest Caster Level requirement. It does not state you must meet the lowest, the next lowest, and then the highest separately.
When you have a +1 Bane Vorpal Spell Storing weapon there is only one caster level you must meet, the highest. The highest in this case is Spell Storing at Caster Level 12.
Now, if we have a +5 Bane Spell Storing weapon the required caster levels are 12 (Spell Storing) and 15 (+5). The highest is +5 so that is the caster level requirement.
- Gauss
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Aelryinth, there is nothing to support that each + is a separate qualifier. The caster level requirement for an enhancement bonus is bonus times 3.
Either you meet the Caster level or you do not. The rules even state that you must meet the highest Caster Level requirement. It does not state you must meet the lowest, the next lowest, and then the highest separately.
When you have a +1 Bane Vorpal Spell Storing weapon there is only one caster level you must meet, the highest. The highest in this case is Spell Storing at Caster Level 12.
Now, if we have a +5 Bane Spell Storing weapon the required caster levels are 12 (Spell Storing) and 15 (+5). The highest is +5 so that is the caster level requirement.
- Gauss
To be fair, it doesn't say either way.
This is understandable, considering that before PF added a rule about avoiding pre-reqs in return for an increase in difficulty (not to mention there being a craft roll at all!), there was no need to treat caster level as discrete requirements. Without this rule, parsing the different CL requirements would have no possible function.
With that in mind, the PF rule (+5 DC per missing pre-req) could be interpreted either way. There is no official guidance on this.
For me, it makes sense that +5 weapons would be more difficult to craft than +4, which would be harder than +3, etc.
It's worth hitting the FAQ button.
Malachi,
They are harder to craft. +5 Weapons have a starting DC of 20 (5+3*5) while +4 weapons have a starting DC of 17 (5+3*4). The DC has gone up by 3.
As for it not saying how to generate the caster level requirement the rules clearly spell this out:
Caster Level for Armor and Shields: The caster level of a magic shield or magic armor with a special ability is given in the item description. For an item with only an enhancement bonus, the caster level is three times the enhancement bonus. If an item has both an enhancement bonus and a special ability, the higher of the two caster level requirements must be met.
Caster Level for Weapons: The caster level of a weapon with a special ability is given in the item description. For an item with only an enhancement bonus and no other abilities, the caster level is three times the enhancement bonus. If an item has both an enhancement bonus and a special ability, the higher of the two caster level requirements must be met.
There is only one Caster Level pre-requisite, with that being the highest of any Caster Level pre-requisites. It does not tell you to calculate multiple pre-requisites.
- Gauss
Kindly note that you can 'interpret' the requirement rule for EACH level of enhancement, just like you could for each level of, say, brilliant, wounding, etc.
Thus, if you're 5th level, you add +5 for not meeting the requirement of a +2 item, +5 for a +3 item, +5 for a +4 Item, and +5 for the +5 item.
Resulting in a substantial DC 35 spellcraft check to make a +5 sword at 5th level...if you want to rule it that way. Apply the same rule to expensive fixed effects to get them out of the easy reach of low level casters.
So a low level crafter can probably do the stretch to make a +2 item, and MIGHT be able to do a +3 (requiring a 19), would be really stretching for a +4 (DC 27) and +5 is not in the picture at DC 35.
Except, if that was I rule I would have to face, I would not create a +5 item from a non magic sword. I would instead upgrade the sword 5 times:
1) non-magic to +1 .. CL 3 made, no +5 DC this time; DC 8 (5+3)
2) +1 to +2 .. CL 6 missing, add +5 this time; DC 16 (5+6+5)
3) +2 to +3 .. CL 9 missing, add +5 this time; DC 19 (5+9+5)
4) +3 to +4 .. CL 12 missing, add +5 this time; DC 22 (5+12+5)
5) +5 to +5 .. CL 15 missing, add +5 this time; DC 25 (5+15+5)Since you say DC 27 is stretching, but obtainable at level 5, then you can do this. You just have to stop after each plus added, and start a new upgrade-magic-item the next day. This does not even slow you down.
Since the DC without interpreting the rules this way is also DC 25 for a +5 w/o CL with the same exact time and cost, I see no benefit for making the rules complicated to use.
/cevah
You don't "upgrade a weapon" separately. By this logic, if someone wanted create a Specific Weapon, say, a Frost Brand, you'd require that they make 6-7 crafting checks at the respective DC for each property that goes into the weapon?
Not only does crafting not work that way, by RAW, but there is also in-game examples that prove it doesn't work the way you describe. In addition, the methods to quantify the separate abilities of such weapons (which may not be fairly applicable) makes such a ruling impossible, and even more of a headache to begin with.
One check is all it takes to screw up the weapon (and possibly make it cursed). You might as well just throw the idea of crafting items out of the window since characters can't make +2 weapons without them turning out to be cursed or wasted time, and if any character tries to specialize in making items, they become a liability to the party in a direct confrontation because while they can make items for the party and themselves, their overall capabilities are significantly weakened if not outright nullified by the encounter due to the sacrifices they would have to make in order to make crafting a worthwhile profession.
You don't "upgrade a weapon" separately. By this logic, if someone wanted create a Specific Weapon, say, a Frost Brand, you'd require that they make 6-7 crafting checks at the respective DC for each property that goes into the weapon?
Not only does crafting not work that way, by RAW, but there is also in-game examples that prove it doesn't work the way you describe. In addition, the methods to quantify the separate abilities of such weapons (which may not be fairly applicable) makes such a ruling impossible, and even more of a headache to begin with.
One check is all it takes to screw up the weapon (and possibly make it cursed). You might as well just throw the idea of crafting items out of the window since characters can't make +2 weapons without them turning out to be cursed or wasted time, and if any character tries to specialize in making items, they become a liability to the party in a direct confrontation because while they can make items for the party and themselves, their overall capabilities are significantly weakened if not outright nullified by the encounter due to the sacrifices they would have to make in order to make crafting a worthwhile profession.
Well , to be fair , unless the DM change the rules , you are able to take 10 , if you are able to get past the DC taking 10 each time , dont matter how many tests you made , your weapon wont become cursed.
And you know that , because you know the DC and how much spellcraft you got with the 10.
Aelryinth, there is nothing to support that each + is a separate qualifier. The caster level requirement for an enhancement bonus is bonus times 3.
Either you meet the Caster level or you do not. The rules even state that you must meet the highest Caster Level requirement. It does not state you must meet the lowest, the next lowest, and then the highest separately.
When you have a +1 Bane Vorpal Spell Storing weapon there is only one caster level you must meet, the highest. The highest in this case is Spell Storing at Caster Level 12.
Now, if we have a +5 Bane Spell Storing weapon the required caster levels are 12 (Spell Storing) and 15 (+5). The highest is +5 so that is the caster level requirement.
- Gauss
If you will note on my initial post, I said "YOu can interpret the rules this way..."
Vorpal is at CL 15 as a +5 ability, no? The default example is actually at 18th, dunno why... Spell Storing actually breaks the mold by calling out CL 12 for a +1 ability.
Yes, you can choose to interpret it your way, and have a level 5 artisan with a +10 modifier pump out your +1 Bane, Vorpal Spell storing weapon, since all he needs is DC 20 to do it. He's golden. 100k of gold and three months of work, and he's good to go!
Or, you can consider that he's missing all his benchmarks along the way, and is going to get penalized at each of them, and now he's looking at DC 40 to make vorpal, DC 35 for spell storing, and you might actually need a good craftsman to make the thing.
As I said, you can INTERPRET the rules however you like. If you have no problems with low level guys able to churn out powerful weapons, go to town. It makes your world more magical.
if you want powerful magic restricted to powerful makers, then stack the requirement penalties to enforce and explain the fact. That's all there is to it.
==Aelryinth
Thenobeldrake asked why?
Because i thought it would be less argumentative than saying ban all crafting feats as they suck and are one of the worst things in the game
Magic items should be hard won not made by spending some gold and a little down time
Magic items should be hard won not made by spending some gold and a little down time
In your games, yes, but it does not improve the quality of Pathfinder as a whole, and the creation of the magic weapon is popular in fantasy.
What any one person likes and "what should be", should not be confused. I let sorcerers gain new spells levels at odd levels just like wizards, but it may not be good for the game as whole.
Just stating my opinion make of it what you will
To quote Morgan Freeman " quite frankly i don't give a s~&$ "
Before this thread, I never saw anyone even imply that it was anything but a single requirement.
And remember that WBL isn't a guideline. It's the game's assumption. If you massively inflate HP like a GM would massively inflate gold to even get close to being able to make a +5 weapon at 5th level, you'll have issues.
Just stating my opinion make of it what you will
To quote Morgan Freeman " quite frankly i don't give a s*%# "
Nobody asked if you cared. I was just informing you that what is good for your game may not be good for "the game", since too many posters can't tell the difference between the two.
Speaking of the "it's just a guideline" statement. It should be noted that the game is built upon that "guideline" so if you deviate from it expect to have problems. I am not saying anyone will, but don't be surprised if you do.
Rather than derail the thread just for this, I spoilered my reasoning behing calling WBL a guideline.
The Pathfinder Roleplaying Game assumes that all PCs of equivalent level have roughly equal amounts of treasure and magic items.
In this sense, I agree that it is the games assumption. However, using that assumption you could have characters with vastly different amounts of wealth than what WBL would suggest. As long as the players are dividing the wealth roughly evenly this assumption is met. Regardless of the amounts of wealth.
Table: Character Wealth by Level lists the amount of treasure each PC is expected to have at a specific level. Note that this table assumes a standard fantasy game. Low-fantasy games might award only half this value, while high-fantasy games might double the value.
This further solidifies the previous point. The primary assumption is that the PCs are distributing their loot evenly. The actual amount can vary greatly and will depending on the style of game. But assume for a minute that your GM follows a standard WBL table for your game. That still doesn't dictate HOW an individual can spend their wealth.
Character Wealth by Level can also be used to budget gear for characters starting above 1st level, such as a new character created to replace a dead one. Characters should spend no more than half their total wealth on any single item. For a balanced approach, PCs that are built after 1st level should spend no more than 25% of their wealth on weapons, 25% on armor and protective devices, 25% on other magic items, 15% on disposable items like potions, scrolls, and wands, and 10% on ordinary gear and coins. Different character types might spend their wealth differently than these percentages suggest; for example, arcane casters might spend very little on weapons but a great deal more on other magic items and disposable items.
This is the section that I have an issue with people misusing. First, people assume that it applies even if you have been running a character since first level. Second that any of it is a hard rule. They are good suggestions. Not following it might give you a very unbalanced character, but it does give you leeway by indicating different characters might spend their wealth differently. The only part of it that I would enforce is the 50% max on one item, but that is because I feel it is usually unrealistic to assume that they ever had 50% of their wealth free at one time to get that item.
That said, if you are running a wizard crafter and you choose to be a little weaker on the equipment side of things for several levels and use all the wealth you gained to create a ridiculously expensive item earlier than expected, there is no rule against it. The argument that WBL doesn't allow you to spend your wealth the way you want to is the problem. And that is why I call it a guideline not a hard rule.
Note that none of that changes the answer to the OPs question. Yes, you can make a +5 sword at 5th level, given you have the time and wealth to do so.
you're Interpreting what I posted wrong.
You don't have the Required CL. You don't have the required CL four times over. It doesn't matter if you're upgrading once or five times. You don't have the CL.
Upgrading from a +2 to a +3 would not obviate the fact that you don't have the requirement to do get to +2, so you're missing TWO requirements as you try to upgrade, and so you...
Why do I need to meet 4 separate CL requirements? I see no RAW for more than once. Are you saying I need to re-enchant what is already there?
CRB p553
Sometimes, lack of funds or time make it impossible for a magic item crafter to create the desired item from scratch. Fortunately, it is possible to enhance or build upon an existing magic item. Only time, gold, and the various prerequisites required of the new ability to be added to the magic item restrict the type of additional powers one can place.
The cost to add additional abilities to an item is the same as if the item was not magical, less the value of the original item. Thus, a +1 longsword can be made into a +2 vorpal longsword, with the cost to create it being equal to that of a +2 vorpal sword minus the cost of a +1 longsword.
If the item is one that occupies a specific place on a character’s body, the cost of adding any additional ability to that item increases by 50%. For example, if a character adds the power to confer invisibility to her ring of protection +2, the cost of adding this ability is the same as for creating a ring of invisibility multiplied by 1.5.
Nothing said here that indicated you need to re-enchant.
Or, you can consider that he's missing all his benchmarks along the way, and is going to get penalized at each of them, and now he's looking at DC 40 to make vorpal, DC 35 for spell storing, and you might actually need a good craftsman to make the thing
Well, lets see how difficult this really is.
Pathfinder is human-centric, so lets assume a human crafter.
We have two kinds of crafter stereotypes: Master Smith and Wizard.
The only way a master smith can craft an enchanted weapon is with Master Craftsman. This requires 5 ranks in a skill, so you cannot get this before 5th level. Without this, you cannot qualify for an item creation feat. Therefore you cannot get the needed crafting feat until 7th level. Since we want a 5th level crafter, it cannot be a Master Smith.
A Wizard NPC uses the heroic array so he has a high stat of 15. Add the Human +2 Bonus, and the 4th level stat point on top of this, and you can get 18 for a normal NPC. Lets see the skill build:
- Int Mod: 4
- Skill Ranks: 5
- Class Skill: 3
- Skill Focus(Spellcraft): 3
- Masterwork Tools: 2
- Apprentices' Aid Another: 2
- Armillary Amulet (2500gp): 5
- Headband +2 (4000): 1
Add this up: 4+5+3+3+2+2+5+1 = 25. Using Take 10, lets him hit a DC of 35.
The Apprentice has:
- Int Mod: 2
- Skill Ranks: 1
- Class Skill: 3
- Skill Focus(Spellcraft): 3
Total is 9, with any roll he gets 10+ and automatically gives aid.
NPC gear for a heroic NPC at 5th level is 3450gp. If the crafter also has CWI, he can craft his own items for half price. So: He spends: 50 (MW Tools) + 1250 (AA) + 2000 (H) = 3300, leaving him 150gp for other stuff. After he crafts the weapon, he has an additional pile of gp to spend.
Well, always hitting a DC 35 at level five lets him do a lot. If you let him have more than one person aiding him, he can get even higher. He can also get other bonuses such as Magical Aptitude or Cooperative Crafting, as well as traits [Classically Schooled, Theoretical Magician, Collector (Gnome), Framed, Arcane Student, and Arcane Depth (Nethys)]. Many of the trait bonuses are untyped, so they can stack. A Human Wizard gets 5 feats at level 5. CWI and CMAA leave three others so the wizard could get both feats mentioned above and the feat Additional Traits to grab two stacking trait bonuses. That grabs at least +5 on the skill, so making a DC 40 is doable.
You don't "upgrade a weapon" separately. By this logic, if someone wanted create a Specific Weapon, say, a Frost Brand, you'd require that they make 6-7 crafting checks at the respective DC for each property that goes into the weapon?
Not only does crafting not work that way, by RAW, but there is also in-game examples that prove it doesn't work the way you...
I was responding to Aelryinth's post, and showing how to avoid his suggested DC inflation. :-)
/cevah
Cevah, my math stated they got 20,000gp in coin. I did not state treasure. WBL is not based on how much treasure they get, it is based on the current amount of equipment by price that they have.
The WBL FAQ provides an exception for price by stating that the crafter (not anyone else) can count the cost of crafted items towards WBL instead of price.
For clarity:
1) You count the price of any equipment you possess towards your WBL total.
2) The crafter has an exception to this that allows him to count cost for equipment that he has crafted.
3) Other people are not allowed to count cost for items they did not craft.Regarding your statement about selling stuff:
Lets say you had 10,500gp worth of equipment (by price) and are at level 5 WBL (10,500gp).
You sell an item priced at 4,000gp for half and now have 8,500gp worth of equipment.
Because of that you are now 2,000gp short of WBL and the GM will need to make up the difference at some point if he uses WBL at a guideline.Table 12-5 actually takes this into account by giving you 30-40% more than Table 12-4 (WBL) does. The difference between the two are are assumed to be lost via sold items and consumables.
Table 12-5 is used for handing out treasure in the game while Table 12-4 (WBL) is mainly used for creating a character from scratch. However, Table 12-4 (WBL) is also useful for doing a spot check of what people's wealth is at in a campaign.
- Gauss
You state the FAQ only applies for the crafter. I do not see any language in the FAQ to support that. The statement after the word "Otherwise" in the FAQ is not rules, but explanation by way of a negative example.
Here is the FAQ stripped of explanation, and only rules left:
PC Wealth By Level: If a PC has an item crafting feat, does a crafted item count as its Price or its Cost?
It counts as the item's Cost, not the Price. This comes into play in two ways.
If you're equipping a higher-level PC, you have to count crafted items at their Cost.
If you're looking at the party's overall wealth by level, you have to count crafted items at their Cost.
Thinking more on the FAQ, I will cede point 1.
I see no specific need to fix a character's WBL if they keep buying and selling. It is clear that your net worth drops by doing this, and that more wealth means more power. It only needs intervention if there is a glaring disparity between players or the party is severely under equipped for the module. Since the level of PC optimization (or lack thereof) can swing encounters more than +/- 50% WBL, I don't sweat it.
/cevah
Minor point: NPCs don't get traits if I remember correctly.
Cevah, you choose to ignore the "Otherwise...." sentence while I do not. It is clearly stating that the crafter is accounting for his wealth in a way that is different from people who are not crafting.
Let me ask you a different question, aren't ALL items crafted? If we go with your interpretation then ALL items count as cost regardless of source. That is clearly not the intent of the FAQ.
The FAQ is providing an exception for people who possess the crafting feat. If you do not have the crafting feat you do not have the exception.
- Gauss
Aelryinth,
If you are interpreting the rules that way you are effectively making a house rule. The rules pretty clearly state how to arrive at a Caster Level requirement. It is either Enhancement bonus*3 or it is the requirement of the special ability whichever is higher.
Most special abilities do not have a Caster Level requirement because CL is not a requirement. That is why I used Spell Storing because it is not breaking the mold, it is defining it. It is one of the few special abilities with a Caster Level requirement.
It doesn't matter if the level 5 artisan pumps out the +1 Bane, Vorpal, Spell Storing weapon or not. That is not discussed in the rules. I am only discussing the rules as written here which do state how to calculate the requirement and do not state that there are multiple requirements.
It is clear you are defining the rules by what you want them to state rather than what they actually state. In effect you are making a house rule.
- Gauss
Minor point: NPCs don't get traits if I remember correctly.
You did see that I mentioned the feat Additional Traits? That lets an NPC get two traits for the price of a feat. :-)
/cevah
Cevah, you choose to ignore the "Otherwise...." sentence while I do not. It is clearly stating that the crafter is accounting for his wealth in a way that is different from people who are not crafting.
Text in question:
"Otherwise, if you counted crafted items at their Price, the crafting character would look like she had more wealth than appropriate for her level, and the GM would have to to bring this closer to the target gear value by reducing future treasure for that character, which means eventually that character has the same gear value as a non-crafting character--in effect neutralizing any advantage of having that feat at all."I see it as saying:
Otherwise, if <condition>, then <effect>, and <effect>, which means <restatement>--in effect neutralizing any advantage of having that feat at all.
Since we do NOT want to neutralize the feat, you cannot do <condition>.
The condition we cannot do is: count crafted items at their Price. Therefore you count them at their cost. I do not see this limited to only crafters.
Let me ask you a different question, aren't ALL items crafted? If we go with your interpretation then ALL items count as cost regardless of source. That is clearly not the intent of the FAQ.
All items were crafted at one point. My interpretation applies only to items crafted within the party. I already ceded your point 1.
The FAQ is providing an exception for people who possess the crafting feat. If you do not have the crafting feat you do not have the exception.
- Gauss
I disagree. I think the FAQ is providing an exception to items crafted by any PC no matter who has it now.
Consider this: crafter made a neat item. Two levels later he trades it to another party member. Did the party's WBL just change? No.
/cevah
Minor point: NPCs don't get traits if I remember correctly.You did see that I mentioned the feat Additional Traits? That lets an NPC get two traits for the price of a feat. :-)
/cevah
DOH! missed that, I'll be quiet on that now.
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@Cevah
I think you are forgetting the first row of the FAQ, the actual question to wich the FAQ answer:
PC Wealth By Level: If a PC has an item crafting feat, does a crafted item count as its Price or its Cost?
It counts as the item's Cost, not the Price. This comes into play in two ways.
If you're equipping a higher-level PC, you have to count crafted items at their Cost. Otherwise the character isn't getting any benefit for having the feat. Of course, the GM is free to set limits in equipping the character, such as "no more than 40% of your wealth can be used for armor" (instead of the "balanced approach" described on page 400 where the PC should spend no more than 25% on armor).
If you're looking at the party's overall wealth by level, you have to count crafted items at their Cost. Otherwise, if you counted crafted items at their Price, the crafting character would look like she had more wealth than appropriate for her level, and the GM would have to to bring this closer to the target gear value by reducing future treasure for that character, which means eventually that character has the same gear value as a non-crafting character--in effect neutralizing any advantage of having that feat at all.
—Sean K Reynolds, 01/14/12
The way in which the question is done implies that the answer is aimed at a PC with a crafting feat.
Even more important, that answer was superseded by a later book, Ultimate Campaign:
Adjusting Character Wealth by Level
You can take advantage of the item creation rules to hand-craft most or all of your magic items. Because you've spent gp equal to only half the price of these items, you could end up with more gear than what the Character Wealth by Level table suggests for you. This is especially the case if you're a new character starting above 1st level or one with the versatile Craft Wondrous Item feat. With these advantages, you can carefully craft optimized gear rather than acquiring GM-selected gear over the course of a campaign. For example, a newly created 4th-level character should have about 6,000 gp worth of gear, but you can craft up to 12,000 gp worth of gear with that much gold, all of it taking place before the character enters the campaign, making the time-cost of crafting irrelevant.
Some GMs might be tempted to reduce the amount or value of the treasure you acquire to offset this and keep your overall wealth in line with the Character Wealth by Level table. Unfortunately, that has the net result of negating the main benefit of crafting magic items—in effect negating your choice of a feat. However, game balance for the default campaign experience expects you and all other PCs to be close to the listed wealth values, so the GM shouldn't just let you craft double the normal amount of gear. As a guideline, allowing a crafting PC to exceed the Character Wealth by Level guidelines by about 25% is fair, or even up to 50% if the PC has multiple crafting feats.
If you are creating items for other characters in the party, the increased wealth for the other characters should come out of your increased allotment. Not only does this prevent you from skewing the wealth by level for everyone in the party, but it encourages other characters to learn item creation feats.
Example: The Character Wealth By Level table states that an 8th-level character should have about 33,000 gp worth of items. Using the above 25% rule, Patrick's 8th-level wizard with Craft Wondrous Item is allowed an additional 8,250 gp worth of crafted wondrous items. If he uses his feat to craft items for the rest of the party, any excess value the other PCs have because of those items should count toward Patrick's additional 8,250 gp worth of crafted items.
Cevah,
Crafter made a neat item. For him it counts as the cost rather than the price because the FAQ provides an exception for him. Two levels later he trades it to another party member. The party member counts it at price because he did not craft it and the exception does not extend to him. The party's WBL just went up because that receiving party member's WBL just went up.
The FAQ clearly discusses the crafting character benefiting. It does not discuss the other people in the group benefiting and even states that non-crafting characters should not benefit.
You have quoted that section yourself but appear to be ignoring it. I'm not sure if our conversation can proceed any further since we are reading that section differently.
- Gauss
@Cevah
I think you are forgetting the first row of the FAQ, the actual question to wich the FAQ answer:
The way in which the question is done implies that the answer is aimed at a PC with a crafting feat.PC Wealth By Level: If a PC has an item crafting feat, does a crafted item count as its Price or its Cost?
It counts as the item's Cost, not the Price. This comes into play in two ways.
<snip>
If you're looking at the party's overall wealth by level, you have to count crafted items at their Cost. Otherwise, if you counted crafted items at their Price, the crafting character would look like she had more wealth than appropriate for her level, and the GM would have to to bring this closer to the target gear value by reducing future treasure for that character, which means eventually that character has the same gear value as a non-crafting character--in effect neutralizing any advantage of having that feat at all.—Sean K Reynolds, 01/14/12
If the FAQ is aimed at the crafter only, why does it talk about Party WBL?
Even more important, that answer was superseded by a later book, Ultimate Campaign:
Adjusting Character Wealth by Level:You can take advantage of the item creation rules to hand-craft most or all of your magic items. Because you've spent gp equal to only half the price of these items, you could end up with more gear than what the Character Wealth by Level table suggests for you. This is especially the case if you're a new character starting above 1st level or one with the versatile Craft Wondrous Item feat. With these advantages, you can carefully craft optimized gear rather than acquiring GM-selected gear over the course of a campaign. For example, a newly created 4th-level character should have about 6,000 gp worth of gear, but you can craft up to 12,000 gp worth of gear with that much gold, all of it taking place before the character enters the campaign, making the time-cost of crafting irrelevant.Some GMs might be tempted to reduce the amount or value of the treasure you acquire to offset this and keep your overall wealth in line with the Character Wealth by Level table. Unfortunately, that has the net result of negating the main benefit of crafting magic items—in effect negating your choice of a feat. However, game balance for the default campaign experience expects you and all other PCs to be close to the listed wealth values, so the GM shouldn't just let you craft double the normal amount of gear. As a guideline, allowing a crafting PC to exceed the Character Wealth by Level guidelines by about 25% is fair, or even up to 50% if the PC has multiple crafting feats.
If you are creating items for other characters in the party, the increased wealth for the other characters should come out of your increased allotment. Not only does this prevent you from skewing the wealth by level for everyone in the party, but it encourages other characters to learn item creation feats.
Example: The Character Wealth By Level table states that an 8th-level character should have about 33,000 gp worth of items. Using the above 25% rule, Patrick's 8th-level wizard with Craft Wondrous Item is allowed an additional 8,250 gp worth of crafted wondrous items. If he uses his feat to craft items for the rest of the party, any excess value the other PCs have because of those items should count toward Patrick's additional 8,250 gp worth of crafted items.
Looks like UComp agrees with the FAQ. It gives guidlines on how to deal with the extra wealth generated by the feats.
As a guideline, allowing a crafting PC to exceed the Character Wealth by Level guidelines by about 25% is fair, or even up to 50% if the PC has multiple crafting feats.
It then goes on to address how the feat increases party WBL, and how to address the issue. It does not say to count crafted items at price. The example clearly shows the extra value by price is counted towards the crafter's enhanced WBL, and that it should be no more than a given percent more than normal due to having the feat.
/cevah
Cevah,
Crafter made a neat item. For him it counts as the cost rather than the price because the FAQ provides an exception for him. Two levels later he trades it to another party member. The party member counts it at price because he did not craft it and the exception does not extend to him. The party's WBL just went up because that receiving party member's WBL just went up.
The FAQ clearly discusses the crafting character benefiting. It does not discuss the other people in the group benefiting and even states that non-crafting characters should not benefit.
You have quoted that section yourself but appear to be ignoring it. I'm not sure if our conversation can proceed any further since we are reading that section differently.
- Gauss
I have not seen it stating non-crafters should not benefit.
I am not ignoring it. I am interpreting it differently than you. As I have said before, we disagree.
/cevah
Cevah,
Ultimate Campaign simply approaches it from a different direction with the same result. Instead of stating to count crafted items at cost it is stating to increase the WBL for the player. The result is the same.
In either case (FAQ or Ultimate Campaign) the end result is that other people are not allowed to benefit from the crafter's Feat (although an exception to this is provided in Ultimate Campaign by allowing the extra value to come out of the crafter's allotment).
- Gauss
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If the FAQ is aimed at the crafter only, why does it talk about Party WBL?@Cevah
I think you are forgetting the first row of the FAQ, the actual question to wich the FAQ answer:
The way in which the question is done implies that the answer is aimed at a PC with a crafting feat.PC Wealth By Level: If a PC has an item crafting feat, does a crafted item count as its Price or its Cost?
It counts as the item's Cost, not the Price. This comes into play in two ways.
<snip>
If you're looking at the party's overall wealth by level, you have to count crafted items at their Cost. Otherwise, if you counted crafted items at their Price, the crafting character would look like she had more wealth than appropriate for her level, and the GM would have to to bring this closer to the target gear value by reducing future treasure for that character, which means eventually that character has the same gear value as a non-crafting character--in effect neutralizing any advantage of having that feat at all.—Sean K Reynolds, 01/14/12
Because you (the GM) are comparing the wealth of the person with the crafting feat and the wealth of the people without the crafting feat.
If the guy with the crafting feat has paid half price for half of his gear items, if you use the price to evaluate his WBL you get that he has 125% of the WBL of the other party members.The FAQ speak of comparing the WBL of all the members of the party, not of comparing the WBL of the party against the "ideal" WBL.
Even more important, that answer was superseded by a later book, Ultimate Campaign:
** spoiler omitted **Looks like UComp agrees with the FAQ. It gives guidlines on how to deal with the extra wealth generated by the feats.
As a guideline, allowing a crafting PC to exceed the Character Wealth by Level guidelines by about 25% is fair, or even up to 50% if the PC has multiple crafting feats.It then goes on to address how the feat increases party WBL, and how to address the issue. It does not say to count crafted items at price. The example clearly shows the extra value by price is counted towards the crafter's enhanced WBL, and that it should be no more than a given percent more than normal due to having the feat.
/cevah
It give guidelines to spread the extra WBL "created" by the feat between multiple party members, but the extra WBL is borrowed from the character with the feat.
If you are creating items for other characters in the party, the increased wealth for the other characters should come out of your increased allotment. Not only does this prevent you from skewing the wealth by level for everyone in the party, but it encourages other characters to learn item creation feats.
Cevah,
Ultimate Campaign simply approaches it from a different direction with the same result. Instead of stating to count crafted items at cost it is stating to increase the WBL for the player. The result is the same.
In either case (FAQ or Ultimate Campaign) the end result is that other people are not allowed to benefit from the crafter's Feat (although an exception to this is provided in Ultimate Campaign by allowing the extra value to come out of the crafter's allotment).
- Gauss
You are contradicting yourself.
/cevah
That is not a contradiction. A general rule with an end result that then has a specific exception is not a contradiction.
- Gauss
If the FAQ is aimed at the crafter only, why does it talk about Party WBL?@Cevah
I think you are forgetting the first row of the FAQ, the actual question to wich the FAQ answer:
The way in which the question is done implies that the answer is aimed at a PC with a crafting feat.PC Wealth By Level: If a PC has an item crafting feat, does a crafted item count as its Price or its Cost?
It counts as the item's Cost, not the Price. This comes into play in two ways.
<snip>
If you're looking at the party's overall wealth by level, you have to count crafted items at their Cost. Otherwise, if you counted crafted items at their Price, the crafting character would look like she had more wealth than appropriate for her level, and the GM would have to to bring this closer to the target gear value by reducing future treasure for that character, which means eventually that character has the same gear value as a non-crafting character--in effect neutralizing any advantage of having that feat at all.—Sean K Reynolds, 01/14/12
Because you (the GM) are comparing the wealth of the person with the crafting feat and the wealth of the people without the crafting feat.
If the guy with the crafting feat has paid half price for half of his gear items, if you use the price to evaluate his WBL you get that he has 125% of the WBL of the other party members.The FAQ speak of comparing the WBL of all the members of the party, not of comparing the WBL of the party against the "ideal" WBL.
The FAQ does not say anything about comparing.
The FAQ talks about "overall wealth". A singular thing. There is no check of one character's wealth to another's wealth. What is the "overall wealth"? It is each PC wealth summed up. You expect it to be about the same as the sum of each PC's WBL. It tells you how to count crafted items. It makes no distinction who made the item./cevah