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I'd rather just have the "Close" weapons. Brawler with a Shield is what I've wanted to play close to damn near forever. Just let me be Captain America, for God's sakes.
I would argue that you can do pretty much the same thing with a wizard, too; the only difference is how wide your net is and how many tools you have to respond to a situation, and the Arcanist definitely has the potential to be a wider toolbox than the Sorcerer. But I still think the Arcanist achieves its peak of power much more easily, simply due to how it reaches into that toolkit and how it can add to it easier.
I think it's easier to attain the peak of its power than a wizard is; I think compared to a martial class that doesn't synergize spellcasting it has a huge number of options in combat; I think it has a lower peak of power than a wizard does, but it's still a peak that's far beyond many other classes. Currently it feels too much like a hodge podge to me and I am sure we can do better. I really hope this attitude proliferates to the other classes, because this sort of summarizes this first round of playtesting to me. Some good ideas that need a lot of refinement.
The build is Arcanist 20. I sink a metric ton of money into having a metric ton of spells. Every morning I prepare at least one of the general-use blast spells, one of the general-use Save Or Die spells, and one of the general-use buff spells into every slot I have. I get an Intelligence of 32 from a +8 Headband, +2 from my Race, 18 from the-point buy, and +4 from level-ups. Bonus spells alone give me the ability to do ridiculous, ridiculous things, and this is before Blood Focus ever gets involved, not to mention all the scrolls I can and will cart around to supplement my versatile spell preparation. It isn't *silly* but it is definitely eyebrow-raising. EDIT: I should note that, no, it isn't as powerful as a min-maxed wizard, but it's much much easier to attain than properly min-maxing a wizard because it doesn't rely on the Schrodinger's Wizard fallacy; e.g., where the wizard is always assumed to have favorable conditions and favorable spells prepared, the Arcanist can cart around a series of prepared spells and only use them as he needs.
I'd allow Arcanist if neither Sorceror nor Wizard existed in my setting, and it didn't get the Blood Focus thing. Maybe you should be able to prepare Bloodline abilities as if they were spells or something, like they're added to your spellbook and then you cast them and make them happen, so you're forced to choose between useful Bloodline abilities or useful Spells. But as it stands they need fewer resources, fewer spells per day by a huge margin, and Blood Focus needs to not exist. EDIT: Hell, maybe give them the Bloodline Arcana instead of Blood Focus, and then allow them to prepare Bloodline Abilities as spells, so you have some actual presence and allow for neat stuff like the Empyreal Wisdom-focused caster, but then also force them to use resources to access the rest of their blood.
Now, while Blood Rage counts as Rage for the purposes of feats, can you use it to qualify for Extra Rage Powers and acquire Rage Powers as a Barbarian? My gut says yes, but I bet you'll tell me no, which is a shame, because a feat tax to be Even More Demony/Angely/Beasty is something I'll happily pay just for the totem powers.
Teamwork feats have yet to actually be worth it. However, the fact that a Hunter can take Ensemble and have it apply to his pet monkey is hilarious. Now the Hunter and his monkey can be a travelling musical thing. Super. Just give them Eidolon evolutions, for God's sakes.
Our party recently received a very powerful intelligent item with an Ego Score of "really freaking high". It came up that we had several methods to make ourselves immune to Charm effects, and that the Paladin will eventually be immune to Compulsion effects. Does immunity to Charm or Compulsion negate the ability of an Intelligent Item to possess its wielder? Alternatively, if not, what immunity would be necessary? Immunity [Mind-Affecting]?
I find this is a situation that, for me, is drastically different depending on the medium. As a GM online, I am perfectly secure in my ability to write convincing characters and descriptions; I can take my time and be thorough, and make everything really engrossing and engaging. I type fast enough that it's never a problem juggling like eight different conversations at a time, all of them different NPCs. I enjoy it thoroughly; I find my characterization is my strongest trait. As a GM in real life, I don't enjoy GMing. My players tell me they enjoy it fine, but I'm much more self-conscious about it, and I don't do nearly as much with NPC variety. I can't juggle characters nearly as well, and I feel like I'm playing against myself. Ironically, as a player, I am the exact opposite in both situations. As a player online, I feel that I act much more like an entitled player, and play more quiet characters with less interesting personalities. As a player in real life, I tend to be bombastic, and carry personalities and characters that are very memorable with voices and accents and generally mannerisms.
email:
swordhuntergil@gmail.com Yes please. This is epic stuff; I'd love to see the finished version, and indulge in an hour-long argument with my GM about why we should use it instead of the base stuff, assuming you're willing to let me have a copy.
As the player from this campaign pushing for the actual post, I sternly believe that any god whose portfolio includes "racial genocide", regardless of the absolute evil of the race, is pretty damn evil.
How many abilities/feats/whatever can I imprint? Is there an upper limit, or is it just "as many as I've made the roll for, bookkeeping ho"?
Hmm. I was kind of hoping to avoid Ranger, to be honest; 1-20 Fighter was really the way I planned to go, but this might work just as well, admittedly. No way to do this as a straight Fighter and really be viable without that "shared enhancement bonus" thing, though...
So I'm playing around with a build I might run in my GM's next campaign, at some point in the future; essentially, the goal is to be Captain America. No weapons besides my shield, shield bashing being my primary source of DPS. Is that viable with only Paizo mechanics, as a 1-20 fighter? Also of note is that I don't plan to take the Shielded archetype, I find it inferior by a wide margin to the baseline Fighter.
I was hoping this had rules for forcing people to punch themselves. I AM DISMAYED. (I see no real reason to deny that, myself, though it's kind of goofy)
And if you need to hack something togeather from the rules; why even get them? I'm almost hearing you say that you expect the rules to be so counter your needs that you will have to rebuild them basically from the ground up. If that's the case, why even bother getting them? I feel basically the exact same way about the Teamwork feats. The difference is, several classes I very much like (Cavalier, Inquisitor) require complete rebuilds to be viable without Teamwork Feats; I am required to use these feats, or pull the guts out of the class and remake it. I tend to opt towards the latter, because I like Cavalier and Inquisitor in concept. No class requires Mythic rules. Mythic rules open options for development we did not have before - namely, abilities not tied to class progression. Yeah, in their current, playtest form? They're not that great, and I can't argue that they are. But the avenues of development they open excite me to no end.
The mentioned full toolkit idea has promise, but it's beyond the scope of this gen of Pathfinder. But it's not. That's what archetypes already do. We just take that and add more.
I see what you did there.
I honestly think alignments are silly when there are deities that could have defined feelings and commandments and practices instead.
Honestly yeah, I hate teamwork feats, I'd rather see them as straight bonus feats and they are just that in every campaign I've ever run. Back on monks, though, yeah, TOZ sums it up perfectly. Sometimes it's just not fun to be a Monk.
Yeah. They're just really bad at it. My buddy was playing one in an incredibly long (still going!) campaign; he basically had the GM ask him repeatedly if he wanted to swap characters, because there were lots of dungeons and literally the only teamwork feat we ever found a use for was a third-party one (I think) where he granted us all synchronized perform checks. Cavaliers would benefit immensely from dropping the "Teamwork Feat" shilling and getting actual bard-style buffing abilities, or even Auras circa the 3.0 Marshall/3.5 Dragon Shaman.
I want basically every single legacy class to get a review, including and especially monks. I want every class to be flavorless, so that I can apply my own flavor to everything they do, all the time. I want every class that lacks it to have a toolkit from which I can pick, like the Barbarian's Rage Powers or the Sorceror's Bloodline abilities, instead of rigid class abilities. I want archetypes to function like the Qigong Monk, so I can pick and choose when there are silly overlap restrictions (like Drunken Fist and Empty Hand can't be overlapped, which is dumb). For monks specifically, I want a D10 HD. I want them to be called Ascetics. I want them to be able to be, depending on the toolkit selected: -front-line fighters who punch through armor like it's nothing, focusing on touch attacks, much like Gunslingers but in a more melee specialization, with 'ki' abilities to back this up -mobility fighters who dart around the battlefield disabling everyone, dancing in and out of combat with huge maneuver bonuses to put people on their backs or without weapons as fast as possible, with ki abilities to back this up -single-weapon fighters with bizarre, almost magical connections to their weapons, able to perform feats ordinary fighters can't at the cost of staying power and versatility, with ki abilities to enable 'weird' weapon uses Similarly, I want a Rogue toolkit set that enables me to be either the backstabbing jerk, the swashbuckling skillmonkey, or Indiana Jones; I want a Fighter toolkit set to enable me to either be the weaponsmaster, the juggernaut, or Lancelot. And I want Cavaliers to stop being a shill for Teamwork feats and become a legitimate class, instead of something the Samurai does a million times better.
I'd argue that using things of the effective mythic level isn't quite the same as it was but that's good to know; I haven't had a chance to wrangle my players into an actual playtest, they're stubborn. EDIT: Also that pretty much reinforces my point of "Mythic doesn't mean you need Mythic challenges" so either way that's good!
Consider also the phrase from The Incredibles, 'If everyone is Mythic, than nobody is.' Mythic PCs will be more often than not facing Mythic foes and thus everyone is back on the same level they were before they became Mythic. A Mythic paladin should be able to rip the wings off of a Vrock and make it cry instead of struggling against a Mythic Vrock
That's not even kind of true. There's no point in which I think I'd have my Mythic PCs facing more Mythic foes than non-Mythic foes. You can create just as much danger with a massive horde of enemies - and continue to make the players *feel* mythic as they mow through a small army on their doorstep - as with a single Mythic foe, perhaps more. Honestly, did the concepts of "action economy" and "horde tactics" - nevermind just "actual tactics" - vanish with the arrival of Mythic rules or something? Similarly, high-level monsters don't just vanish because they're Mythic now. On the contrary - "PCs Imbued With Ultimate Power" is the perfect reason to start dragging things that are many CRs higher than your players out of the Bestiaries. Also, consider that Mythic Flaws exist for the same reason as they did in the actual stories - to fuel character development...and place pressure on the mythic hero. You can use them to apply danger with even the least mythic of enemies - again, it was not a dragon that felled Baldr, but mistletoe. Yes, mistletoe fired by a god, but it was the mistletoe that killed him. Consider this. Yes, a mythic Fighter might tear through a hundred goblins in a round. But what if he's up against ten thousand? Even if you shorthand them to having one attack roll per thousand, that's ten rolls - with what is likely a not-insubstantial bonus behind them - to hit the Mythic fighter. That's ten chances to Crit, again probably with not-insubstantial damage bonus behind it. You can't rely on the same old tactics to challenge Mythic PCs. This is a fact. But nor do you need to resort to making everything ever Mythic to face them - scaling up the old tactics, as well as inventing new ones that we will surely see open up to us as the playtest continues, will be enough. My primary problem is that I already thought my PCs were "mythic". They are the heroes, and thru their adventures they are becoming legends. I can understand the desire to have a more "Extreme" game from time to time. I prefer the options from the 3.5 Unearthed Arcana; Gestalt Classes, spell-touched feats, etc. Mythic first level character just doesn't seem right to me, PCs should earn their legendary stats. And yes Heracles was killing snakes as a toddler, her was also a Demigod. Which is precisely what Mythic rules are intended to emulate. Not "being better than everybody else" - "being beyond human comprehension", "outside the rules", "superior". The PCs aren't just "the heroes" in a Mythic game - they're Demigods, they're Immortals, they're Legends Writ Large. They have a grand and glorious destiny beyond the destinies of normal people. This isn't a problem you're having with the rules. This is you not comprehending what Mythic rules are for. They're not for a more "extreme" game - they're for PCs who challenge Heaven and Hell with the power of gods behind them. If you don't like it, that's cool, but at least understand what it's meant to do. Yes, it might be something you "earn", but it's also something PCs can start with from birth because they are demigods or something to that effect. Problem two is that the Mythic rules are just a layer of complexity added to an already complex game. I would prefer something like substitution levels, maybe even each class remade into a Mythic version. When your PC becomes mythic, you stop using the regular class levels and switch to the mythic rules. The tiers would be built into the class or presented as Mythic Prestige classes, not layered on top, and the rules would support multi-classing better. A 3.5-based game, adding complexity with a splatbook? No way! I'd never have guessed that was a thing that would happen /ever/. Okay, slightly less sarcastic now, absolutely g$%$&@ned not. Do you know what a pain in the ass it is to rebuild characters compared to adding phantom "levels"? What you're suggesting is actually more complex than the Mythic rules are. The Mythic rules are a phantom set of "levels" you progress in through great (and pre-determined by the DM) deeds, meaning all advancement in Mythic power is strictly controlled. That means that every mythic tier-up is because you, the DM, offered it to them. You can't "grind" mythic tiers - the mechanics, as far as I understood them, literally prevent that. So what's less complex - a system by which players can increase in power according to their actions and the DM's whims at literally any point in time, or an entirely new set of classes, prestige classes, "substitution levels" (which I have always felt were horribly done, personally, they've never ever been worth what they were substituting until Archetypes came out)? Because the answer is "the one you can staple onto an existing character sheet without any changes". That's always the right answer - /always/.
You're describing a world that has never had legends before the players entered the scene, and 'spectacular' doesn't exist in the dictionary until they do something that deserve it. This implies very self-centered bards, because the only tales they can tell are about themselves. I guess slaying dragons, zounds of bandits, dark necromancers, and the like just never happened before? You know, all the stuff the PCs would be doing in a non-mythic game, unless adding the <mythic> tag to your notes somehow makes it more special. There's a gulf of difference between being Bard, who slew Smaug with the black arrow, and Turin Turambar, Conqueror Of Fate, destined to *come back to life and slay the root of all evil at the end of the world*. One has stories told about him, and yes, they're great stories about killing horrible things and epic bravery, and no one is devaluing them. The other is literally chosen by forces beyond his control for a fate that surpasses his own death. Unless you're implying that Bard should've been a warrior, because he wasn't a member of the party, and that killing Smaug was a lucky shot? I mean, sure, that's fair - but it's not like anyone in Lord of the Rings really conforms to fantasy class archetypes, so I'll be fair. How about good ol' Theseus, who was born from Aegeus and Poseidon both sleeping with the same woman on the same night? Or Achilles, who was held over the fire/dunked in the water of the lethe until he became damn near invulnerable (good ol' mythic DR), except for his one critical weak point (you know the one). Or Siegfried, who became indestructible when the dragon Fafnir's blood spilled over him, except for one spot on his back that was covered by a leaf? Or Baldr, the god, who was immune to all forms of damage because of his mother going around the entire universe and making everything promise not to hurt him, ever? Except the Mistletoe, of course. Shame. You can't really mimic those abilities with D&D, not if you want the game to remain playable. But Mythic DR pretty much does the job for you! And - this is the best part - it's outside the class/level system, so the players actually feel like it's something unique that they can do, instead of being something every barbarian ever has! All you need to do is imagine some flavor for it besides "these numbers on the sheet" - which you really ought to be doing anyway! What's the difference between a warrior and a fighter, despite both being +1 BAB/level and requiring the same amount of experience to level? The Fighter is a PC class, which is also by definition more special than an NPC class. Fighters get feats that express being competent in their chosen style, and nothing about the fighter or its feats beyond the arbitrary "PC" distinction makes it seem as if it's anything out of the ordinary for humans to possess? They aren't even "PC" classes, they're "Base" classes. The NPC classes even say, right on page 242 of the NPC codex - "these are not meant to represent specific, named NPCs; rather, they are used for common roles these sorts of characters play in the game - minor cultists, swineherds, and so on." Emphasis mine. You'll also note that there's a comment about your way of doing things on page 242, going into 243, as well! "In a low-magic or gritty campaign setting, humanoid opponents are the norm and skilled opponents are rare exceptions; the villain may have levels in a PC class, but the rest of his minions are experts and warriors." But I don't play low-magic, and I'd really like the Pope of Crystal Dragon Jesus-Land to be able to cast real magic instead of Adept crap, and still let the players feel like they're special despite having super-Pope in the setting. I and many others have stated what is actually desired out of the Mythic rules, and that is something more evocative than a "slaying marginally more enemies or surviving some fraction more damage." Impossible. If you're going to codify something into rules, it must be repeatable - which strains the mythic out of it, as people have already noted - or unique, in which case you don't need rules for it at all. The best you can possibly do is make something outside the norm and hope it will be utilized in a manner that isn't "slaying marginally more enemies". Here's another option if raw power is all you care about, which doesn't need an entire book; just set the XP for the fast track, give high-fantasy wealth (double WBL), use epic fantasy point-buy. Everyone else in the world can be stuck with the low fantasy point-buy, wealth, and slow experience. OK, or you could stick words in my mouth about how all I care about is raw power, sure. I'll spell this out for you, as easily as I can. If you want evocation from the mythic rules, you are going to have to drag it out of the rules yourself. The moment you create rules for unique, special events that can never be repeated, you have created a means by which they can be repeated - effectively, you cannot make a "system" for miracles and expect miracles to remain miraculous. Mechanics are mechanics; evocation will either come with the fluff, or from your own imagination. What I have been arguing has not once been about power scale, but about a framework by which players can acquire abilities beyond the ken of mortal men, outside the "class/level" system. It has nothing to do with slaying dragons a little better - that's not mythic, and if you think that's what I'm arguing, I invite you to go reread my arguments a little closer. TL;DR: You Cannot Make Repeatable Rules For Miraculous One-Of-A-Kind Events. The Best You Can Do Is Make A System For Exalting The Player-Characters Above Normal People, And Then Build Off It, Using What Opportunities It Provides.
Mythic rules enable those of us who aren't Ayn Rand fans to still have the Chosen One story, and now support it by actually being special and feeling like big badasses because our Fighter 10/Mythic 5 can and does outshine every Warrior and Fighter 10 on the planet by a wide margin.But he's not outshining any of the other Fighter 10/Mythic 5 characters on the planet. The world is just as bent and PC-relativistic by denying Mythic tiers to only the players, which brings us to the same kind of tactics I suggested; make PC classes rare/special/unique, make NPCs lower level, etc. The difference is less homework and that's about it, unless Mythic fulfills a role of more than raw numeric power upgrades. But that's wrong, because Mythic tiers don't progress with XP/things killed/"life experiences", they progress by "being spectacular and forging a legend", whereas every single class level ever has always been represented as growing "with experience". Unless you're telling me that literally no one in the last hundred years has ever learned to swing a sword with a +1 BAB per level, despite doing the exact same thing as the heroes...no, no, that's just too damn strange to me. The Mythic tiers are non-class abilities that have nothing to do with professions, but, again, literally "being special". Again, yeah, you can do it the way you're describing, but then I have to question what you actually even want out of the Mythic rules in the first place?
But...but that's wrong. Your PC Paladin is the only Paladin in the entire world? No other human being in the history of the last, let's say century because that's about three generations, has ever been chosen by the gods of good? Every single other high-level human being who serves the Church is an adept 10+? Your PC Fighter is the only Fighter in the entire world? In the past hundred years, no other human being has ever been trained in the fighting arts, they've all just been crappy warriors, even the guys who've spent their entire lives training and soldiering on? Your PC Cleric is the only cleric, yadda yadda. That's literally just humans. When you take elves and other long-lived races into the equation, it looks even sillier. The "PC" classes aren't intended to be PC-only, and it shows - heck, all you have to do is open the NPC Codex for that. There ARE gulfs, dividing lines - number of stat points, amount of gold, quality of gear - that separate NPCs from PCs, but "classes" isn't intended to be one for major players in the campaign world. And I don't mean the campaign. I mean the campaign world. If you start opening those classes up to "the bad guys", you have a really strange situation going on, where all the guards are 10th-level Warriors who can't stop evil's arrows with anything but their soft, fleshy bodies, but all the bad guys are 10th-level fighters because...because. Similarly, if you shut off those classes, you get humanoid challengers who are tenth-level...nobles and warriors. That doesn't really make the players feel cool; that's the equivilant of curbstomping some goblins at level 2. So what's the line? Where do you determine who gets the "PC" Class and who gets the "NPC" class, in a theoretically-living, breathing, realistic, stable world? Again, you see this a lot in older settings and amateur homebrew, as well as That Other Default Setting For That Other Game Going Unmentioned But Referenced By A Number That Is A Multiple Of Two And The Letter E - where you have dudes who couldn't possibly sustain the empires they rule, guards who are just so slightly higher-level than the PCs but always seem to be low-level when the bad guys come rolling around. If the world needs to be bent to your party, there's something wrong here - or you're a big Ayn Rand fan, and if you are, that's cool. Mythic rules enable those of us who aren't Ayn Rand fans to still have the Chosen One story, and now support it by actually being special and feeling like big badasses because our Fighter 10/Mythic 5 can and does outshine every Warrior and Fighter 10 on the planet by a wide margin. Yes, you can just write "The CHOSEN ONE" on your sheet; yes, you can just pretend those classes are forever off-limits to the NPCs; yes, you can even have a setting with zero humanoid antagonists. For those of us who like our settings to be cohesive, sane, and full of NPCs who are actually competent, and thereby make sense internally, there's Mythic. Basically, PC-relativistic settings aren't my bag, but if they're yours, have fun. You probably won't need this book.
Yeah I'm trying to sketch out rules to level 0/Mythic 1 something myself. Nearest I can figure out, you'd have to apply age penalties for being a kid to the standard rolls, as well as give them like...I dunno, 6 HP+Constitution? You couldn't be too tough on 0/Mythic 1s, but it's definitely an option now.
I have to fundamentally disagree. The reason Mythic exists is to separate the PCs from the NPCs who are identical to them, as well as the monsters and so on. Saying that the level X+15 Barbarian is Herakles is all fine and dandy, but at heart, that level X+15 Barbarian is identical to all other level X+15 barbarians in the world. If you think this is a situational case, I invite you to take a look at the Forgotten Realms, where the guiding rule of your PC is that you aren't special and there are a million other people who can do your job better than you can, and the only reason problems really happen is that Elminster doesn't do diddly Yes. You can easily run the game as if only your players have levels in PC classes. Yes. You can easily say that Herakles is the only X+15 Barbarian in the world, and make him a goal for your players to surpass. But what about the formative levels of Herakles? Herakles was awesome even as a little kid - he beat two snakes Hera sent to kill him to death, in the crib. Can a level 0 Fighter beat two snakes to death? Probably not. Can a 0/Mythic 1 Fighter? Probably. Yes, that's silly. You're never going to be in a situation where a player has 0 Character Levels but Mythic Tiers (although that gives me an idea for a campaign...). But the point is that Herakles was special from birth, not because he had 20 levels of Flipping Out And Killing People - and unless every single character in your campaign is always below the level of the PCs, you really can't model that in Pathfinder rules default. A level 1 is a level 1 is a level 1 is a level 1. But a level 1/Mythic 1? That's a whole different ball game, even if it doesn't seem like a fundamental change.
I'd like to point out that the phrase Mythic is probably what's bothering people more than the concept of Mythic rules. There are legendary aspects to heroes all across time - Lancelot's legendary battle-prowess, Gawain's legendary purity, Herakles' legendary strength. These aren't mythic concepts - they're repeatably demonstrated, constantly shown throughout their legends. Lancelot is a freaking badass. Gawain's purity is a plot point that eventually nets him the Grail (even if Gawain was added later and is functionally a fanfic). If you divorce yourself from the word "Mythic", this is a set of rules designed to make characters more able to forge legends other NPCs in the campaign cannot replicate. Being the strongest, being the smartest - that's not really what this is about. It's about going beyond mortal limitations, and I feel that Mythic rules are fully capable of that. Yes, not every combat is going to be the most mythic of mythic. Yes, once you start repeating things they lose their lustrous fun-time Legendary Awesome Super-Feel. But being Lancelot means more than just tapping Guinevere like she's bonus mana and sending Arthur to Avalon (I don't remember if Lancelot actually killed Arthur but he certainly hastened his downfall). It means being an incredible swordsman, the greatest of a peerage. It means being superior, all the time, forever. That's what Mythic is for. It's not so you can produce those one-of-a-kind moments in the campaign; Jesus, if you need a rulebook for that, I'd feel pretty bad for your players. No, it's to produce characters, monsters, and legends that go beyond the mortal coil, characters who can cleave through a dragon with one mighty blow or cunningly outthink a Lawyer-Friendly Cameo Of A Betentacled Intelligence-Devouring Humanoid Whose Abilities May Or May Not Be Described As Flaying. A Fighter 1/Mythic 1 is always going to be more awesome than a Fighter 1. A Fighter 2/Mythic 1 is always going to be more awesome than Fighter 2. Yes, there might be bigger fish in the sea, but...eventually, you'll be the biggest of all. And you'll probably die in the process, because who doesn't love a myth about heroic sacrifice?
The way I envision this system involves having more than just one Mythic use per skill, so that you can do a broad number of cool things just by tagging a skill Mythic. That's why I named the various abilities, after all.
So I mentioned this over on http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2p7vl?Missing-the-Myth , but I felt it deserved its own thread so it can be thrown at the community at large instead of just the group who peruse every thread. The definition of a Mythic hero is identical to the classical definition of a hero - Dictionary.com's "Classical Mythology" tells us that a Hero is:
And certainly the Mythic rules as presented grant us many of these traits. In truth, Mythic heroes are stronger than the default hero - a Fighter 1/Mythic 1 is more amazing than a 1 Fighter. But is he more amazing than a Fighter 2? Well, there's the question. People will say that the problem stems from this being a game of numbers. There is balance required - you can't just make yourself Hercules, or that delicate balance falls apart. But I don't agree with that. Hercules wasn't great just because he was strong, no more than Perseus was great because he got handed a bunch of magic items and killed a gorgon (because really, who among us hasn't killed a Gorgon in our games by now? Well, a Medusa, but the point remains). They were great because of an inner quality, an ability to wow and capture the imaginations of mortal men. Can a Mythic Character do that? Can a Fighter 1/Mythic 1 wow his cohorts more than a Fighter 2? Well, there are Mythic spells that let you do incredible things - a mile-wide Sleep is a good start. But on the whole, no, I don't feel that Mythic characters can capture the imagination. Mythic feels a great deal like a replacement for the Epic Levels, a replacement that's on the whole more "useable" and concept-friendly for GMs while at the same time being suited well for the incredibly high-level play of 20+. I feel as though being Mythic means more than what is presented in the books. So, if you just glazed your eyes over at my little ramble, here's the part where you can start reading again. Don't worry, I don't hold it against you. MYTHIC SKILLS:
MYTHIC SKILLS What does a Skill being Mythic mean? Simply put, being Mythic at a skill does not mean having more success at it; it means that your successes are greater than mere mortals can possibly attain. It means that your successes are touched by a spark of the divine, the sort of deeds that will live on in songs of fame and infamy for as long as time cares to remember you. Starting at Mythic Tier 1, a Mythic Character may "flag" a single skill as Mythic. The character may, from that point on, burn a use of Mythic Power before he makes a roll, declaring that, should the skill succeed, he is using his Mythic effect. On a successful roll, the character's success is wildly, astoundingly powerful - far beyond the ken of mere mortals. Terrifying a village into submission, bringing a whole country to tears with your speech, or simply knowing that which you should not know - all these and more are possible with Mythic Skills. At every other mythic tier, the character may flag an additional skill as Mythic. FORGING A LEGEND Below are some suggested Mythic effects for various skills. It is by no means a comprehensive list, merely a single effect per core skill. Mythic effects that are contested do not apply against other Mythic characters, unless otherwise noted. Mythic Acrobatics - God Speed: The Mythic hero may either keep his full armor class while using Acrobatics to move across narrow surfaces, or multiply his Jump distance by (mythic tier) x10. Mythic Appraise - King's Keen Eye: It is impossible to fool the Mythic appraiser. He immediately knows not only the value of the item he is appraising, but where and when it was made, with what materials it was created, and - if he succeeds the check by more than 10 - exactly what magic abilities a mystic item has, if any. This same ability applies to the most expensive item of a hoard, but at a glance, the Mythic hero may also determine the next most expensive item, its value, and any single magical aura upon it. Mythic Bluff - Word Of Truth: The lie is true. Or, rather, the lie permeates the target so thoroughly that it becomes truth to him, no matter how outlandish - though all normal penalties apply. A Mythic Hero can convince a man that the sky is green, that his wife is cheating on him, or even that the man himself is dead - and if he is successful enough, truly kill him. Mythic Climb - The Slopes Of Olympus: The hero may walk not only up any surface he succeeds on climbing with the climb check at full speed, as though he had a climb speed, but may climb a perfectly smooth, vertical surface as though it were a DC 40 check. Mythic Craft - From The Forge Of Gods: The item is automatically masterwork. Furthermore, the GM may secretly roll on any table the GM feels is appropriate to determine whether or not the item has a magic property, as well as what property. The GM is under no compulsion to tell the player what sort of magic item he has created. The player does not need any sort of feat to create such items - but nor can the imbuement of Mythic magic truly be controlled. Mythic Diplomacy - To Move A Nation: The words of a Mythic hero can move a nation, and indeed, do. By spending Mythic power, the result of a single Diplomacy check spreads like wildfire - improving the relationship of every NPC in a number of miles equal to your Mythic rank. Mythic Disable Device - Curse Of The Black Pearl: The mythic hero levels a curse upon the device, a sabotage that surpasses mere mechanical. No visible evidence of his tampering is left; he may set any condition he wishes for the failure of the item in question, so long as it is a condition that can be achieved. "When the King of the nation rides upon this cart, the wheel will fall" or "when the firstborn son of the firstborn son of this cursed family sits upon this chair, the trap will trigger." Mythic Disguise - For Someone's Glory: The Mythic Hero becomes the person he disguises. Divination magic cannot penetrate the disguise; for all intents and purposes, any attempts to detect the Hero treat him as though he were the real person. Furthermore, any actions committed by the hero while disguised as a real person become attributed to that person once the disguise ends. If he is disguised as a false person, there is no evidence of his falsehood. Mythic Escape Artist - The Impossible Escape: The Mythic Hero is capable of escaping from every bond placed upon him with a single roll, as though it were a Dispel Magic check - target the highest roll offered, in descending order. This is treated as a standard action, no matter what sorts of restraints are placed upon him - including magical ones. Mythic Fly - Hurricane In Motion: The mythic character rides the winds, and in his wake, the winds follow. The Mythic character applies a High Wind Speeds penalty to anyone who follows him within a thirty-foot radius; these winds can damage standing structures, fling items, and push Small enemies according to the wind speed table. Mythic Handle Animal - Breaking The Untameable Mare: The Mythic character may apply Handle Animal to any creature that lacks an intelligence score, regardless of its nature or subtype - including Oozes, Golems, and mindless Undead - as though they were Wild animals, with a DC of 15+HD. Mythic Heal - The Impossible Surgeon: The Mythic surgeon may restore a number of hit points to a wounded character equal to half of his Heal check, as though the character were healed by magic. Alternatively, he may cure a disease or poison normally considered uncurable, as though it had a save DC of 25+(HD of creature that applied it), or a flat 30 if the above does not apply. Mythic Intimidate - Terror In Your Wake: The Mythic character, if he succeeds on his Intimidate check vs. his opponent's will or Sense Motive check, applies the results of his Intimidate to everyone in a radius of (Mythic Tier) miles. Furthermore, local authorities will not treat the mythic character as hostile, so long as he does not commit an illegal action - as normal. Mythic Knowledge - Secrets Man Does Not Know: The Mythic sage may uncover a single bit of information that is actually impossible to know, according to a DC set by the DC. This information may be a local secret, a loophole in the law, or the location of a forgotten treasure; regardless, it is pulled out of absolutely nowhere, drawn from the Mythic power the sage holds. Mythic Linguistics - Forgery Becomes Fact: A successful Mythic forgery does not merely become difficult to discern; it applies any modifiers that would be beneficial to the forgery, but pushes any negative modifiers onto the actual, original document. If there is no original document, it simply removes any negative penalties. Mythic Perception - Sight Beyond Sight: The Mythic character gains a glimpse of the future on a successful Perception check. He immediately knows the next actions of any NPCs who are not Mythically stealthed, and can react to them as though he had a surprise action. His surprise action puts him immediately at the top of the surprise action initiative, allowing him to catch the assassins or ambushers before they even pull off their action. Mythic Perform - All The World's A Stage: The Mythic character may sweep up others into the sheer force of his performance; on a Memorable or better performance, the Mythic artist may apply any single emotion to the crowd, as though they were subject to any single spell that can affect emotions. The Mythic hero may choose to apply either the benefits or the penalties, or both, of the spell. This may be combined with Bardic Performance, but any such performance burns up two rounds per actual round as the Bard sustains his epic. Mythic Profession - uncertain. Try again later. Mythic Ride - The Mount Of Heroes: With a DC 25 Ride check, the Hero may temporarily apply any benefits of his own Mythic tier to his mount so long as he stays upon it, including any feats or abilities the Mount could take advantage of - and also including any Mythic flaws. Mythic Sense Motive - Glorious Magistrate's Ear: The Mythic hero may, on a successful Sense Motive check, not only determine whether or not the target is lying, but the nature of the lie, the nature of the crime the character is attempting to hide (if any), and the exact details of when and where the crime took place. Mythic Sleight Of Hand - Where In The World...?: The Mythic hero may swipe attended objects as though they were unattended, including weapons, clothes, or items held in hand. By taking a cumulative -5 penalty per size category of the item, the character may even steal attended structures - so long as he has the means to carry them. This may include magic items such as a Bag of Holding, shrinking spells, or simply being large enough to hold the object with a successful strength check. Mythic Spellcraft - Archmage's Wisdom: The Mythic hero may attempt to learn a spell he witnesses being cast with a successful check, as though it were a scroll or spellbook, so long as he first succeeds on the check to identify the spell being cast. This use of Mythic power may be declared after a successful attempt to identify a cast spell, unlike any other use of Mythic Skills - it then applies an immediate additional check to learn the spell. A spell not scribed before the end of the day is lost. Spontaneous casters who use this spell may immediately add a single use of their spell to their Spells Per Day, up to a number of additional spells equal to their Mythic tier. Mythic Stealth - The Invisible Hand: The Mythic character vanishes from all forms of non-Mythic perception; not merely sight, sound, and scent, but tremorsense and other exotic senses, as well as Divination spells that are not cast by a mythic caster. Looking at the character simply registers as a blank space; it requires a DC 20 intelligence check to realize that something is wrong, though this check does not permit the character to then perceive the Mythic character. Any action that would break stealth breaks Mythic stealth. Mythic Survival - Divine Guidance: The Mythic character not only knows exactly where he is, but the nearest location of all streams, watering holes, food sources, and natural hazards within a (Mythic Tier) mile radius, as well as any cities, towns, or gathering places. Mythic Swim - Trout Up The Dam: The Mythic character may swim against any current as though he had a Swim speed of (Swim Check result), including directly up currents that would be impossible to swim, such as a waterfall. He may further act as though he has a swim speed for as long as he chooses to swim, including the ability to 'run' underwater across great distances. Mythic Use Magic Device - not sure, try again later.
Note that I make no claims of the balance of these abilities - only their design and concept. This is intended only to be a jumping-off point, and has not been playtested in any real manner.
I feel like all of those abilities described - the "terrifying kin by scaring a dude" thing - are things we can build ourselves with the framework Mythic is trying to do, and not something we should expect from Paizo. Don't forget - first and foremost, Mythic is a toolset to allow us to build upon. That's always been 3.5's greatest strength, and it's Pathfinder's greatest strength too - the sheer power of the toolset and the ease with which we can produce such things. So, yeah, I mean, those are all cool ideas. You can build them into the system. Mythic Skills will probably be a thing, too, we just haven't seen them yet. But even if they aren't, you can easily set up ways to spend mythic power for skills. Say you get to flag one skill as Mythic every tier you achieve, and that lets you burn a Mythic Power to use the Mythic option for the tier. Mythic Intimidate, if you succeed, terrifies all onlookers, and everyone within three miles grows shaken. Mythic Knowledge: Local, should you succeed on a DC 20-something check, allows you to know one secret from the town - whether that they're all Innsmouth or that they're all related or something like that. Mythic Climb allows you to walk straight up the side of whatever it is you're climbing, even if you couldn't possibly normally do that. Mythic Jump lets you multiply your jump distance by 100 So yeah. Either that kind of thing is coming, or it'll be easy to patch in.
It seems like it would help if Mythic Feats did in fact replace and retrain away their non-mythic versions. Otherwise, Power Attack and other feats become stepping stones that get ignored and discarded in favor of their Mythic ones, leaving ugly, glaring wastes of space in a build. Sure, that's no problem for a fighter, but for anybody else, feats don't quite grow on trees. Maybe Mythic Feats should have text about replacing the base version with this ability when you qualify for it, or something. EDIT: for clarification, what I mean is that the Mythic Feat read something like this "When you select this feat, it immediately replaces its non-mythic variant. Any abilities granted by the original feat are either replaced or added into this one. The original feat slot is freed up, allowing the character to take any feat he or she qualified for at the level said feat was selected to replace it."
Unless there's a pressing reason your wisdom and intelligence are set so high I'd drop them both down to 12 and pump charisma and dexterity. Move your feats around to accommodate dervish dance by third level. It's rolled, not point buy.
Steal Time and Still Fate both have a (Charisma-based) save DC, yeah. Also, what's this Book of 3pp feats referenced over in http://paizo.com/forums/dmtz598r?Opinions-on-the-Time-Thief ?
Alright. Thanks for the help, I'll see what happens and if it goes well I'll let you know!
I was thinking about going with dual-wielding short swords, so that I could hit repeatedly and keep chaining attacks, but wow, Dervish Dance is great. I think I'm gonna borrow that, that's really nifty. I'll see if my GM lets me use Feats of Battle, I dunno if he will. Right now I'm looking at something like this: Strength 10, Dexterity 14, Constitution 13, Intelligence 15, Wisdom 14, Charisma 15 blah blah blah skills Skill Focus: Stealth
Talents: Steal Time Scimitar, Chain Shirt (or lower, maybe leather). I might drop "being an Elan" in favor of that human bonus feat, but I like the flavor we worked in for being an Elan so I'm probably keeping it. Also there are some wicked Psionic Feats (CLOAK DANCE, SPEED OF THOUGHT) that I could use to make this a little meaner. Kinda wish I could manifest a power but I don't feel like dipping a level and potentially losing my 20th-level ability. EDIT: Oh, uh, +2 Elan Ability Bonus into Dexterity or Charisma?
I've seen a couple threads around here about Time Thieves, most of them coming to the same conclusion I did - that they're somewhat martially underpowered but otherwise a good class. But I haven't seen any about actually *building* one. Right now, I'm going to be playing in a 3rd-level campaign as a Time Thief. The other players are an Archaeologist Bard, a Lotus Geisha Bard, a Mystic Godling, a Psychic Warrior, and Fighter specializing Archer. Obviously the Archaeologist is going to be a heck of a skillmonkey, so my job is probably going to be debuffing. I wrote the class into the setting (with the GM's help) as a sort of time-wielding assassin order, so leaning towards that, I'm planning on specializing in Stealth. Also, my GM has a houserule that lets me sacrifice a feat for the equivilant of Extra Talent, so I'm thinking about picking up an extra time talent to help the debuffing go smoother. Oh, and just to be more complicated, I'm an Elan. Thoughts? Ideas? Builds? Anything would be helpful.
...holy crap, this is the perfect Snake Oil Salesman class isn't it? My doubts and sorrows have instantly evaporated! (Not really, but now I'm actually interested in playing this class!)
Serious:
Nonserious: I'd kill for a decent fisherman class. Landing the Big One is too good an ability name to pass up.
No, there was no sarcasm intent in my post. I was disagreeing with the idea that "poisons aren't worth a discovery" from MaverickWolf. If Poisons aren't worth the limited resources, we need to make sure that they are. I sure know I support your idea and may wind up playtesting this altered alchemist if I can find a chance.
Thanks for not doing so! (Though I can always appreciate good irony, including being b*&3h'd out for an ironic post.) To be honest though, the "no it sucks" mentality of this board bothers me as well, and I certainly empathize with not wanting to see class features that are absolutely fascinating (hi there bombs) stripped away in favor of complaints from people who haven't number crunched or playtested.
Honestly my biggest problem with infusion being required to be a party player is that there just aren't enough discoveries available to players. I'd bump it up to one every two levels, to be perfectly honest, and then set hard-and-fast rules in there. Discoveries are basically Alchemy Feats, but they improve upon standard class features that -should've- improved with level -anyhow- (I'm looking at you mutagen). As it stands, you get 7 at level 20 (4, 8, 12, 16, 20, +2 from Grand Discovery). You should get (2, 4, 6, 8, 10, 12, 14, 16, 18, 20, +2 from Grand Discovery), so that you can spread out over multiple trees and keep your class features up to par or specialize in one of the myriad trees of research. It's like playing Starcraft. Don't you want to get all the tech trees? Actually, it's worse - it's like playing Starcraft, but everybody else in the game gets their full tech tree without research time, and you have to pick just one branch.
Obviously then, if the poison chain is not worth spending limited class resources on, Alchemist discvoeries should be improved to make it worth spending those resources on, and to have more of those resources to spend. If the flaw is that it is "fun and flavorful but not enough resources," we need more resources. If the flaw is that it is "fun but not useful" then it needs to be useful. If the flaw is all of the above, all of the above must be repaired. Simple.
Alchemist is certainly not more powerful than any of the basics; it's substantially under-powered when compared with its nearest relative (the rogue) due to the limitations of its class features, the lack of meaningful power boosts without specializing in discovery trees, the lack of synchronicity between Mutagen and other self-buffs (enhancement bonus bad), and the limit of bombs per day. Inquisitor is also not substantially more powerful than any of the basics; it is a bard, but a bard focused on killing things. A bard focused on buffing is going to make the entire party better; an inquisitor only makes himself better, and not by much. Summoner is...an exception. It's a fascinating class. It's unlike any core class, in that it gives you a second party member on top of it. But if that second party member dies, you're screwed. It's got a couple gaping weaknesses easily exploitable and heaven help you if your enemy comes prepared with dispels, banishments, and AoEs. I'd say that, again, this group is more specialized. Any of them could substitute for any of the base classes that their niche is supposed to fill, with Summoner substituting for Bard most likely. But they aren't much more powerful.
It was disappointing to find out you couldn't mix and match elemental bombs. Needless to say that house rule is going in if my players ever use Alchemist.
Ehhhh, I could go either way, so long as they're present. If they're not unlimited, they could always be crafted as a normal alchemical item (and gain the bonuses therein when they hit the proper levels to speed it up) or something. I'm just looking to see them put back in. Something utilitarian about 0-level stuff that feels missing here.
This has nothing to do with the confusing wording of the text. I'm well aware it's a typo. But...it shouldn't be. 0-level extracts couldn't possibly make that big a difference. Alright, so the alchemist has brewed a couple Cure Minor Wounds extracts to keep people off the brink of death. An Oil of Prestidigitation cleans away the glasses just right! An Oil of Repair fixes up those broken hinges and doors. Why did something so obviously useful and interesting as 0-level extracts get wiped from the Alchemist's portfolio? 0-level extracts (spells in general, really) get a horrible rap from people, but orisons are some of the most useful spells in the game. Where's the extract of Light being poured onto the sword? Where's the Daze extract tossed to the ground for a lot of flashing lights and fireworks? Dare I say it - where's Dancing Lights extract? We want fireworks, people! Bring back Level 0 Formulae! That is all.
Sarcastic, I was feeling ironic.
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