It's probably not in the guides because it was a recent ruling. However if you search the forums, you're sure to find some threads that discuss the new "early entry" version.
However yours doesn't quite work. The most recent version of the FAQ on spell-like abilities that allows this clarifies that SLAs gained from divine spellcasting classes count as divine, even if the spell would normally be arcane. So the Copycat ability from the Trickery domain would be divine; you'll have to get the arcane SLA from somewhere else (probably a different version of Aasimar).
Also, you may want to consider an Empyreal-bloodline Sorcerer instead of Wizard, so you can have just one casting stat.
The only thing you're missing is that they revised the FAQ a couple of weeks ago so that now any SLA that is granted by a class ability is the same type as the spells of that class. Therefore Copycat is now a divine SLA, not a divine one.
This doesn't really change much about your character though; just choose an Arcane racial SLA instead and your plan will work fine. (Pyro gnome, several Tieflings, several Aasimars).
edit: ninja'd all to heck. Anyhow, this document was compiled before the latest change, but as long as you keep in mind that all domain power SLAs are divine, it's still quite useful.
|
You can be a mystic theurge @ level 4, yes. I second Empyreal sorcerer for wisdom casting, also you don't have to buy spells in your spellbook. Also, note that an Azata-Blooded Aasimar gets a 2nd level SLA, and can get a 2nd level divine with 2 levels of oracle. The uber-charisma Mystic Theurge at level 4 (Oracle2/Sorcerer1)
Wood oracle Bend the Grain revelation.
1st level Cleric, Trickery/random domain (Trickery gets us Mirror Image, level 2 Arcane spell).
As mentioned before Mirror Image would probably be considered a divine spell like ability.
Which isn't arcane or a spell.
Even if it were arcane and a spell you would need to be able to cast more then one 2nd-level arcane spell.
Able to cast 2nd-level divine spells and 2nd-level arcane spellSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS.
@Karlgamer:
SLAs definitely do count as meeting prerequisites for PrCs, so you are incorrect in that assertion.
You are correct when you say that it would count as divine.
You are incorrect when you state that the plural 'spells' means you must be able to cast more than one spell; you need only be able to cast one spell (or spell-like ability, as the case may be) of the appropriate level to qualify.
So yes, you can definitely qualify for Mystic Theurge by using an appropriate combination of spell-like abilities and Cleric domain spells. In this instance, however, the Trickery domain's access to Mirror Image would not count as an arcane spell, because it's granted by a Cleric (divine) class feature.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
SLAs definitely do count as meeting prerequisites for PrCs, so you are incorrect in that assertion.
You are correct when you say that it would count as divine.
You are incorrect when you state that the plural 'spells' means you must be able to cast more than one spell; you need only be able to cast one spell (or spell-like ability, as the case may be) of the appropriate level to qualify.
I have been squarely owned.
This has come up many, many times before...and barring DM fiat it does, in fact, work.
If you are fortunate enough to have a DM that allows Esoteric Training and you pick up Magical Knack, Mystic Theurge is an imminently practical option now.
Just to clarify, you are aware that the +2 CL doesn't grant additional spells, spells known, or higher level spells, right? It just improves durations, dice pools, and CL checks and such.This has come up many, many times before...and barring DM fiat it does, in fact, work.
If you are fortunate enough to have a DM that allows Esoteric Training and you pick up Magical Knack, Mystic Theurge is an imminently practical option now.
Yes, but Esoteric Training does:
Eclectic Training (5 Fame): Guilds often require members to master and train in different subjects. When your Fame score in a guild reaches5, choose one spellcasting class you have at least 1 level in—you increase
your effective caster level in that class (including the number of spells you know and can cast per day) by +1, to a maximum caster level equal to
your total Hit Dice. Single-classed spellcasters should still pick a class to which this bonus applies, since this bonus is retroactive.
Esoteric Training (35 Fame): The bonus to caster level you gain from Eclectic Training increases to +3 (but is still limited by your total Hit Dice). You may select a second spellcasting class to gain a +1 bonus to effective caster level.
So a Cleric 2/Wiz 1/MT 10/Cleric 4/Wiz 3 (or some other combination) would be a 17/17th level caster at 20 that casts as a 17/19th level caster. In fact they'd still get 9th level casting in one class at 17 and the other at 20, pending how they played it.
Indeed, it's at the mercy of DM whim, for sure; just like not allowing SLAs to qualify even though the rules clearly state they do.
My group has it easy; I allow pretty much anything but Leadership and the most stupid of 3rd party feats. As long as everyone is having a good time, that's what matters.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
This has come up many, many times before...and barring DM fiat it does, in fact, work.
I still don't agree with this ruling, primarily because Prestige Classes seem to have been designed so that you cannot enter them before 6th or 7th character level. Want to be a Shadowdancer? 5 Ranks in Stealth. Pathfinder Chronicler? 5 Ranks in Perform (Oratory) and Profession (Scribe). Loremaster? 7 Ranks in 2 Knowledge Skills. Duelist? +6 BAB.
Oh, but you've got a Spell-Like Ability? That's different! Free pass!
Look, I understand that Mystic Theurge and Arcane Trickster aren't great PrCs, and even the Eldritch Knight requires a basically cookie-cutter build to function usefully, but that just means we need better designed PrCs. It's unfair to people who want to play, say, an Arcane Archer who must have a high BAB and thus must wait until 7th level, while someone else can rules-lawyer their way in early if they take the right combo of race/class for SLAs.
So yeah, bad call Paizo.
|
This has come up many, many times before...and barring DM fiat it does, in fact, work.
I still don't agree with this ruling, primarily because Prestige Classes seem to have been designed so that you cannot enter them before 6th or 7th character level. Want to be a Shadowdancer? 5 Ranks in Stealth. Pathfinder Chronicler? 5 Ranks in Perform (Oratory) and Profession (Scribe). Loremaster? 7 Ranks in 2 Knowledge Skills. Duelist? +6 BAB.
Oh, but you've got a Spell-Like Ability? That's different! Free pass!
Look, I understand that Mystic Theurge and Arcane Trickster aren't great PrCs, and even the Eldritch Knight requires a basically cookie-cutter build to function usefully, but that just means we need better designed PrCs. It's unfair to people who want to play, say, an Arcane Archer who must have a high BAB and thus must wait until 7th level, while someone else can rules-lawyer their way in early if they take the right combo of race/class for SLAs.
So yeah, bad call Paizo.
In all fairness there is a skill rank required (3) and also even with this ruling, unless you go with some crazy cheese, the earliest is lvl 4.
For the Mystic theurge I've built, he went in at lvl 6. Had to get lvl 4 for sorc, then lvl 1 for oracle so that when he went into MT he actually got two caster levels raised.
If you want to be practical about this rather than pure theory crafting for early entry (and playing a realistic character) the earliest you'll see people going Mystic is really lvl 5. (lvl 3 wizard, lvl 1 cleric or reversed) then at lvl 5 entering, lvl 6 for spontaneous casters.
So basically all this rulling did was change it from lvl 7 to lvl 9 as to when people entered to for some, lvl 5-6.
|
|
Fake healer, the earliest ones would be one with a 2nd level arcane, and an oracle with wood mystery (eww) to enter at lvl 4. (it could do three, but the pre-req of 3 ranks kills that)
IE a tiefling (darkness counts a 2nd lvl arcane) with sorcer 1, and oracle 1(bend the grain mystery from wood) would be eligble if not for the 3 ranks at lvl 3. so he can level either of them and then at lvl 4 go straight Mystic.
Since the MT class doesn't advance bloodlines or oracle mysteries, I never understood the push to use Sorcerer/Oracle. Getting level 9 spells > being a bit MAD IMHO. As long as you've got 18 Int/Wis before level 9, you have all you need.
|
|
Take my build for instance, you're not worried about getting lvl 9 spells for the Oracle side.
In exchange now, I have a mystery that my reflex and AC are based off my charisma bonus rather than dex. So my touch ac and standing ac are both amazing compared to others. Top it off with scion of war and now my dex is an offical dump stat.
I reach lvl 9 spells one lvl behind a "regular" sorcerer. I also force rerolls twice a day against a single opponent, and 1/day against any others through dual cursed and others.
All spells are auto silent metamagicked, immune to sound based attacks, (at lvl 18 no longer take any penalty to initiative)
If I need to land some rays, I can use the oracle side to improve to hit and get them rays landing all I want.... As kewl as double lvl 9 spells are... it's not feasible except with the guild thing which I've never seen used in real life.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
As far as I can tell looking it over, with the latest rulings, the easiest build is this :
Tiefling (2nd level Arcane SLA)
Cleric 1 (Trickery Domain 2 Level Divine SLA)
Empyreal Sorcerer 1
Empyreal Sorcerer 2
MT 1+
Keeps your Spell Levels in sync (IE: You get 2nd level spells in both at the same time, 3rd level, and so on), one casting stat.
Take my build for instance, you're not worried about getting lvl 9 spells for the Oracle side.
In exchange now, I have a mystery that my reflex and AC are based off my charisma bonus rather than dex. So my touch ac and standing ac are both amazing compared to others. Top it off with scion of war and now my dex is an offical dump stat.
I reach lvl 9 spells one lvl behind a "regular" sorcerer. I also force rerolls twice a day against a single opponent, and 1/day against any others through dual cursed and others.
All spells are auto silent metamagicked, immune to sound based attacks, (at lvl 18 no longer take any penalty to initiative)
If I need to land some rays, I can use the oracle side to improve to hit and get them rays landing all I want.... As kewl as double lvl 9 spells are... it's not feasible except with the guild thing which I've never seen used in real life.
You make a compelling argument.
We are using the guild rules, I really don't know why anyone *wouldn't* allow it. It adds flavor to the game, and even if I didn't love the concept, I'd just make it really hard for the characters to gain fame. Make it a part of the story, and make them earn the extra powers they gain...heck turn it into a side-quest version of Harry Potter when they have to detour back to school every couple of levels. Mischief managed.I am currently running a Cleric/Wizard/MT as a healing/divination focused NPC, so my build choices have been decidedly non-optimal. But I've had to retool the character multiple times to power it down a bit, so I definitely see how with a bit of forethought the class combination is capable of almost anything.
Side note, since we are talking about viable builds, the Sacred Thaumaturge Multi-Class Archetype is pretty sweet if you have a DM that allows such things.
My campaign allows only core rules, nothing else. Is there any way that is core rules only to get in early as an MT or AT etc?
|
As far as I can tell looking it over, with the latest rulings, the easiest build is this :
Tiefling (2nd level Arcane SLA)
Cleric 1 (Trickery Domain 2 Level Divine SLA)
Empyreal Sorcerer 1
Empyreal Sorcerer 2
MT 1+Keeps your Spell Levels in sync (IE: You get 2nd level spells in both at the same time, 3rd level, and so on), one casting stat.
Any way to do this without Tiefling? I am not a Tiefling fan...
@Cayzle
Trickery domain is core, so wizard3/cleric1(with Trickery domain) qualifies, and can enter MT at 5th level.
You can select your race, whereas to enter at 4th you need a race with a second level SLA arcane.
Any way to do this without Tiefling? I am not a Tiefling fan...As far as I can tell looking it over, with the latest rulings, the easiest build is this :
Tiefling (2nd level Arcane SLA)
Cleric 1 (Trickery Domain 2 Level Divine SLA)
Empyreal Sorcerer 1
Empyreal Sorcerer 2
MT 1+Keeps your Spell Levels in sync (IE: You get 2nd level spells in both at the same time, 3rd level, and so on), one casting stat.
Certain Aasimar heritages will qualify, angel-blooded or agathion-blooded for example.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
In all fairness there is a skill rank required (3) and also even with this ruling, unless you go with some crazy cheese, the earliest is lvl 4.
Another thing; Prestige Classes are supposed to be largely race-neutral (they admitted that Arcane Archer was flawed in being Elf/Half-Elf only). Now MT allows much earlier entry to certain races due to SLAs. The upshot of which is they rapidly become "X races only unless you want to suck".
There's a design flaw in PrCs that already forces a lot of cookie-cutter character design (to get in as early as possible), and this is making it worse. MT was already bad because it enforced Clr3/Wiz3 (or you suck horribly), now it's enforcing Tiefling Clr(Trickery)1/Empyreal Sorcerer 2 (or you just suck regular rather than horrible).
Compare with Dragon Disciple. Want in? Ranks in K: Arcana and ONE level of a spont casting class. That IMO is good design. If MT just required 5 Ranks of K: Religion and K: Arcane plus the ability to cast Arcane and Divine spells (as per the Spells class feature), I think it would make a lot of people happy and not break the class. Being Sor1/Ora4 means you're a Sor11/Ora15 at 15th level (with 5th Arcane and 7th Divine spells). Wiz4/Clr1 is rocking Wiz14/Clr11 @15th (7th and 6th spells, but on two different casting stats).
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Any way to do this without Tiefling? I am not a Tiefling fan...
Drow (Darkness)
Duerger (Invisibility)Svirnefblin (Blindness/Deafness, Blur)
Aasimar - Angel Blooded (Alter Self)
Aasimar - Archon Blooded (Continual Flame)
Aasimar - Azata Blooded (Glitterdust)
Aasimar - Garuda Blooded (See Invisibility)
Aasimar - Peri Blooded (Pyrotechnics)
Aasimar - Any with alternate spell (Whispering Wind)
Aasimar - Any with alternate spell (Compassionate Ally)
Adapted from here: here. (That list was made before the revision that divine casters always get divine SLAs.)
Second level arcane:
Gnome Pyromaniac
Half-Elf Drow Magic
Aasimar (see mdt's post for specifics)
Tiefling (most, not all racial subtypes)
Drow w/ Spider Step feat
Qinggong Monk (4th level)
Second level divine:
Fate Inquisition
Trickery Domain
Wood Oracle
Qinggong Monk (4th level)
Second level arcane:
Gnome Pyromaniac
Invalid, only 1st level spells on that list, doesn't qualify for MT.
Half-Elf Drow Magic
This works nicely.
Tiefling (most, not all racial subtypes)
Asura Spawn (Hideous Laughter)
Demodand Spawn (Bear's Strength)Demon Spawn (Shatter)
Devil Spawn (Pyrotechnics)
Div Spawn (Misdirection)
Kyton Spawn (Web)
Oni Spawn (Alter Self)
Qlippoth Spawn (Blur)
Rakshasa Spawn (Detect Thoughts)
Any - Via Feat (Fog Cloud)
Any - Via Feat (Minor Image)
The following qualify as second level Divine, if you can also combine with a second level Arcane (see above)
Daemon Blooded (Death Knell)
Any - Via Feat (Deathknell)
Drow w/ Spider Step feat
Base Drow have Darkness, but yes, Spider Step also seems to work.
Note that Quingong monks are really kind of useless as they don't have spell casting, so you're losing the benefit of MT.
Is Drow SLA "Darkness" considered Divine or Arcane?
@Apocalypso: See the second link in my response to Karlgamer. An SLA granted by a race uses the 'spell type hierarchy' from the bestiary; Darkness appears on the Sorcerer\Wizard spell list, and so is considered arcane.
So a Half-elf (drow magic) Cleric with the trickery domain could get into Mystic Thuerge at 4th level? That wouldn't be too bad of a PC to run....What book is Drow Magic alternate trait from?
Advanced Race Guide
|
I've a regular Aasimar and was wondering how I can get him to be a Mystic Theurge @ level 4? I understand how you pick Empyreal bloodline so his wisdom affects his cleric and sorcerer spells. I also understand you pick the trickery domain so you get copycat which gives you the qualification of being able to cast 2nd level divine spell but how do you get the 2nd level arcane qualification?
Second level arcane:
Gnome PyromaniacInvalid, only 1st level spells on that list, doesn't qualify for MT.
This may be a silly question but if my gnome is cleric1/sorcerer1, why is Produce Flame considered a lvl1 spell? Im not a druid so to my character it's a lvl2 spell......
1st level Cleric, Trickery/random domain (Trickery gets us Mirror Image, level 2 Arcane spell).As mentioned before Mirror Image would probably be considered a divine spell like ability.
Which isn't arcane or a spell.
Even if it were arcane and a spell you would need to be able to cast more then one 2nd-level arcane spell.
Able to cast 2nd-level divine spells and 2nd-level arcane spellSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS.
He can cast it multiple times, that counts. Sticking to your line of thought then a sorcerer would not qualify at level 4 due to only having one spell.
I've a regular Aasimar and was wondering how I can get him to be a Mystic Theurge @ level 4? I understand how you pick Empyreal bloodline so his wisdom affects his cleric and sorcerer spells. I also understand you pick the trickery domain so you get copycat which gives you the qualification of being able to cast 2nd level divine spell but how do you get the 2nd level arcane qualification?
You can't with the vanilla Aasimar. Daylight's a level 3 spell so it doesn't qualify. You need to be one of the alternate heritages for it to work (likely Archon or Garuda).
Going to point out thread necromancy before others miss it.