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I'm not trying to offend here but I've been watching this thread for a while and I want to know, who in this thread that is not Justin Rocket is arguing that the monk is reliable as written? ( barring serious min/maxing multiclassing and serious munchkining)And by "Monk as written", you mean "with archetypes and everything else available to monks"? Cause I'm curious about that myself. I assume we all agree that the Core monk is meh. But, what about the full monk?
Personally I'd say anything available to the monk class in the Pathfinder RPG line of hard covers. However I would discount those options if it seems like only two or three archetypes are really viable.
Arguing about just the base monk would be silly though. Beyond bonus feats there isn't much modularity with the monk class features which I think hurts the most, while archetypes really flesh things out and allow a lot of variation to actually argue.
I won't say that non-core monk isn't 'monk' but if there are only a few builds/archetypes that work I think it proves that something is wrong with the class.
Like a couple folks have mentioned, it is a bad sign that the two best monk archetypes (Sohei and Zen Archer) are also the ones that feel the furthest away from the traditional monk flavor.
One random thought that occurs to make monks a bit better at unarmed striking, what about if they got better crit ranges/multipliers on their fists instead of/in addition to better damage dice. I've seen that in other d20 based games, and the low crit stats do seem to be a one thing that's consistently brought up as a problem with the monk using unarmed strikes.
I have a monk I built up from 1 to 12 for another thread. Here he is at 10 and 12.
Human Monk 10
LN Medium Humanoid
Init: +3
Senses: Perception +16
DEFENSE
AC: 24 (10, +3 armor, +3 Dex, +3 Wis, +3 monk, +1 deflection, +1 dodge)
Touch: 21
Flat-footed: 20
HP: 93 (10d8+40)
Fort: +11 (7 base, +2 Con, +2 resistance)
Ref: +12 (7 base, +3 Dex, +2 resistance)
Will: +12 (7 base, +3 Wis, +2 resistance) (+2 vs. enchantment)
Defensive Abilities: Improved Evasion, Immune to disease
OFFENSE
Speed: 60 ft.
Melee:
Unarmed Strike +15 (4d6+7/x2)
Flurry of Blows Unarmed +16/+16/+11/+11 (2d6+7/x2)
Ranged:
Shuriken +12 (1d2+8/x2)
Flurry of Blows Shuriken +13/+13/+8/+8 (1d2+8/x2)
Special Attacks: Stunning Fist, 10/day (DC 18)
STATISTICS
Str: 22 +6 (16 base, +2 racial, +2 level, +2 enhancement)
Dex: 16 +3 (14 base, +2 enhancement)
Con: 14 +2 (12 base, +2 enhancement)
Int: 10 +0 (10 base)
Wis: 16 +3 (14 base, +2 enhancement)
Cha: 8 -1 (8 base)
BAB: +7/+2; CMB: +16; CMD: 33
Feats: Blind Fight, Deflect Arrows, Dodge, Far Shot, Improved Trip, Improved Unarmed Strike, Medusa’s Wrath, Point Blank Shot, Stunning Fist, Toughness, Vital Strike, Weapon Focus (Unarmed Strike)
Skills: Acrobatics +16(+33 Jump)(10r), Climb +19(10r), Knowledge (Religion) +8(5r), Perception +16(10r), Sense Motive +11(5r), Stealth +16(10r)
Languages: Common
Special Qualities: +2 to Str, Bonus Feat, +1 Skill per level
Class Abilities: Improved Evasion, Fast Movement, Flurry of Blows, High Jump, Improved Unarmed Strike, Ki Pool (Magic/Cold iron/Silver/Lawful, 8 pts), Maneuver Training, Purity of Body, Slow Fall (50’), Still Mind, Stunning Fist (10/day), Wholeness of Body (Heal 10, 2ki)
Equipment:
Monk Outfit (0gp)
Handy Haversack (2,000gp)
Bedroll (0.1gp)
Waterskin (1gp)
Amulet of Mighty Fists +1 (4,000gp)
Belt of Physical Perfection +2 (16,000gp)
Headband of Inspired Wisdom +2 (4,000gp)
Bracers of Armor +3 (9,000gp)
Cloak of Resistance +2 (4,000gp)
Monk’s Robe (13,000gp)
Ring of Protection +1 (2,000gp)
20 +1 Adamant Shuriken (2,004gp)
6 Potion of Cure Light Wounds (300gp)
3 Potion of Cure Moderate Wounds (900gp)
57,205.1
Money: 4,794.9gp
62,000gp
Human Monk 12
LN Medium Humanoid
Init: +3
Senses: Perception +19
DEFENSE
AC: 28 (10, +4 armor, +3 Dex, +4 Wis, +4 monk, +2 deflection, +1 dodge)
Touch: 24
Flat-footed: 24
HP: 111 (12d8+48)
Fort: +12 (8 base, +2 Con, +2 resistance)
Ref: +13 (8 base, +3 Dex, +2 resistance)
Will: +14 (8 base, +4 Wis, +2 resistance) (+2 vs. enchantment)
Defensive Abilities: Improved Evasion, Immune to disease and poison
OFFENSE
Speed: 70 ft.
Melee:
Unarmed Strike +18 (4d8+8/19-20x2)
Kama +16 (2d6+7/x2)
Flurry of Blows Unarmed +19/+19/+14/+14/+9 (2d8+8/19-20x2)
Flurry of Blows Kama +17/+17/+12/+12/+7 (1d6+7/x2)
Ranged:
Shuriken +14 (1d2+8/x2)
Flurry of Blows Shuriken +15/+15/+10/+10/+5 (1d2+8/x2)
Special Attacks: Stunning Fist, 12/day (DC 20)
STATISTICS
Str: 23 +6 (16 base, +2 racial, +3 level, +2 enhancement)
Dex: 16 +3 (14 base, +2 enhancement)
Con: 14 +2 (12 base, +2 enhancement)
Int: 10 +0 (10 base)
Wis: 18 +4 (14 base, +4 enhancement)
Cha: 8 -1 (8 base)
BAB: +9/+4; CMB: +18 (+20 Trip); CMD: 40 (+42 vs. Trip)
Feats: Blind Fight, Deflect Arrows, Dodge, Far Shot, Improved Critical (Unarmed Strike), Improved Trip, Improved Unarmed Strike, Medusa’s Wrath, Point Blank Shot, Stunning Fist, Toughness, Vital Strike, Weapon Focus (Unarmed Strike)
Skills: Acrobatics +23(+40 Jump)(12r), Climb +19(10r), Knowledge (Religion) +10(7r), Perception +19(12r), Sense Motive +13(6r), Stealth +18(12r), Swim +10(1r)
Languages: Common
Special Qualities: +2 to Str, Bonus Feat, +1 Skill per level
Class Abilities: Abundant Step(2ki), Diamond Body, Fast Movement, Flurry of Blows, High Jump, Improved Evasion, Improved Unarmed Strike, Ki Pool (Magic/Cold iron/Silver/Lawful, 10 pts), Maneuver Training, Purity of Body, Slow Fall (60’), Still Mind, Stunning Fist (12/day), Wholeness of Body (Heal 12, 2ki)
Equipment:
Monk Outfit (0gp)
Handy Haversack (2,000gp)
Bedroll (0.1gp)
Waterskin (1gp)
Amulet of Mighty Fists +2 (16,000gp)
Belt of Physical Perfection +2 (16,000gp)
Headband of Inspired Wisdom +4 (16,000gp)
Boots of Elvenkind (2,500gp)
Bracers of Armor +4 (16,000gp)
Cloak of Resistance +2 (4,000gp)
Monk’s Robe (13,000gp)
Ring of Protection +2 (8,000gp)
Adamant Kama +1 (5,002gp)
50 +1 Adamant Shuriken (5,010gp)
6 Potion of Cure Light Wounds (300gp)
3 Potion of Cure Moderate Wounds (900gp)
Money: 3,286.9gp
108,000gp
Add the Qinggong monk fix in for Barkskin and Bob's AC goes up to 28 and 33 respectively. Maybe a Ring of Ki Mastery at later levels to stretch his Ki a little farther.
Bob is a good, all-around character. Monks gets a good benefit from Vital Strike thanks to their large damage dice. He has Blind Fight to help him keep his Dex bonus and hit invisible foes and could pick up some potions of See Invisibility if needed. He has Far Shot and Point Blank Shot to help his range with his Shuriken. Improved Trip is there if he wants to try on a mook or maybe to keep an NPC from running away. He can Stealth into position or use Acrobatics to get around the battlefield.
Damage wise? Unbuffed he hits a level equivalent CR on an 8/13/18. With lots of attacks he is going to hit and do some damage. His Stunning Fist will only stick 20% of the time if it is their good save, 40% if it is their bad, but he will try every round.
Against mooks Bob will try to get in reach of at least two, using 1 Ki point for AC, Vital Strike to add damage and attempt to Stun. Second round he will attempt to Stun one for a couple extra attacks, trip another, then either focus fire on one of those two or throw some shuriken. If it is dangerous he will keep his Ki on defense, if not he will get an extra attack. After that he will not spend Ki unless it is desperate or he thinks he might get some rest soon and has some extra. Spending 2 Ki a battle will get him through 5 battles a day.
Against tougher opponents Bob will go for the flank. Ki on AC or extra attack depending on if he thinks he will be attacked or not. As always he will attempt to Stun. It might have a low chance of landing, but if it does it can end the fight, depending on the opponent.
In most games I have ever played we do not have super-uber optimized characters. For example, in my current game the damage dealers are a two-weapon fighter (long and short sword of course!), a sword and board inquisitor and an archer ranger. Bob would be near the top of the damage dealers for this game. Not saying much I know, but still...
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I have a monk I built up from 1 to 12 for another thread. Here he is at 10 and 12.
** spoiler omitted **...
Do you use your shurikens a lot? I've found I haven't used mine since like level 4. The range is too short and when I am in range, I tend to engage in melee anyway.
Retraining out Point-blank shot and Far Shot with Dragon Style and Dragon Ferocity.
Level 10
Unarmed Strike +15 (4d6+13/x2)
Flurry of Blows Unarmed +16/+16/+11/+11 (2d6+10/x2)
Level 12
Unarmed Strike +18 (4d8+14/19-20x2)
Flurry of Blows Unarmed +19/+19/+14/+14/+9 (2d8+11/19-20x2)
Also, the Amulet of Mighty Fists is cheaper now in the Core Book Errata.
What everyone is complaining about is they don't contribute to a party enough. While the barbarian has drained the cleric of heal spells and the party fighter has been confused, paralyzed or charmed, the monk continues to fight. In my opinion, their durability allows them to contribute just as much as any other frontline fighter.
Except that it doesn't for two reasons:
1) Barbarians can have a good AC, and fighters can have a good Will save, and fairly easily, and while it may not match the monk's it doesn't have to because THEIR enemies are dead before they get to do much.
2) Durability vs the monster has to be greater than the monster's durability vs you. Sadly, this is not always the case with a monk. Frequently not, in fact. Also, you have to have potent attacks to ensure the enemy fights you and not the squishy people you are trying to protect, your failure to down the enemy quickly also exposes the rest of the party to damage.
Like I said, my experience. I'm a proponent of not getting hit in the first place. My 10th level monk's AC fluctuates between 33 and 37 and I still manage to hit for 40+ damage in a typical flurry.40ish damage isn't really that great, and the system itself is pro offence.
By 10th level, 40 a hit is what other characters can be dishing out quite easily.
... yes next round i would need to burn 6 more, but as i said before as a drunken master you can "refill you ki pool" when you have nothing better to do.
Except that he can't:
In general, a character can consume a number of alcoholic beverages equal to 1 plus double his Constitution modifier before being sickened for 1 hour equal to the number of drinks above this maximum.
Drunken Monks are not immune to this. There's a limit on how much he can consume at any given time. So a 20 Con monk could rack up to 11 extra ki. That's a lot...if he has 20 Con. If he's got that much alcohol available. If his encounters are sufficiently spaced out.
so slow time>haste
not to mention that same monk can teleport the group, and give very very powerful dpr boosting and defensive buffs on top of that.
Yes, but haste lasts for the whole combat, and the wizard can teleport the whole group and at an earlier level than the monk...sorry, the combo is good, and it's fun, but once good move does not a buffermeister make.
Depends. What's a monk?
Why do you feel that Qinggong, the archetype that stacks with every other monk archetype and any new archetype that is created in the future, not a monk?
Is it different than a barbarian selecting APG rage powers for pounce?
Personally I feel that Qinggong is a customization option for monks rather than a "you not a monk anymore if you take it," but that's just me.
I agree, I regard the Qingong as a "true" monk, insofar as he is a kick-b**t martial artist with mystic powers. However, I haven't seen a pure qingong put forward as an option either. The fact that you need to cross several archetypes just makes the point that monks are not much good without a lot of system mastery, and that's part of the issue some of us have with monks.
The worst thing is, a lot of those archetypes aren't strong options, they are just better options than a core monk, usually allowing him to do one thing well. There's not much a monk - or even an archetype - can do as their signature ability that you can't point to another class and say "They do it better/as well and they do a lot more besides."
This isn't a monk-hate stance, it's a "Paiso will you please improve the monk" stance.
I have a monk I built up from 1 to 12 for another thread. Here he is at 10 and 12.
** spoiler omitted **...
Do you use your shurikens a lot? I've found I haven't used mine since like level 4. The range is too short and when I am in range, I tend to engage in melee anyway.
Retraining out Point-blank shot and Far Shot with Dragon Style and Dragon Ferocity.
Level 10
Unarmed Strike +15 (4d6+13/x2)
Flurry of Blows Unarmed +16/+16/+11/+11 (2d6+10/x2)Level 12
Unarmed Strike +18 (4d8+14/19-20x2)
Flurry of Blows Unarmed +19/+19/+14/+14/+9 (2d8+11/19-20x2)Also, the Amulet of Mighty Fists is cheaper now in the Core Book Errata.
Far Shot and Point Blank Shot are probably not the most efficient selections, but it would be reasonable to assume that someone might take them. Each one significantly improves the performance of shurikens. Also, I made him as Core only, so the style feats weren't available.
All that said, if other sources were allowed, that would be a good change to make along with the ones I already mentioned. I would also pick up Blood Crow Strike in place of Tongue of the Sun and Moon at level 17, but that is pretty late.
He would also pick up Lunge next level (13th) and replace his boots with Winged Boots as soon as possible.
The thing is I think that a monk that is made at least halfway intelligently will not be too far off from any other class with the same level of optimization. Once you get into the crazy, multi-source optimization it really starts to fall behind unless you are a true master of the system.
Oh, and I'm pretty sure I got the price for the Amulet of Mighty Fists right. 4,000gp at +1 and 16,000gp at +2.
Edit: I can also post what he looks like at any other level up to 12. I am halfway tempted to advance him a little just for fun.
I agree, I regard the Qingong as a "true" monk, insofar as he is a kick-b**t martial artist with mystic powers. However, I haven't seen a pure qingong put forward as an option either. The fact that you need to cross several archetypes just makes the point that monks are not much good without a lot of system mastery, and that's part of the issue some of us have with monks.
The worst thing is, a lot of those archetypes aren't strong options, they are just better options than a core monk, usually allowing him to do one thing well. There's not much a monk - or even an archetype - can do as their signature ability that you can't point to another class and say "They do it better/as well and they do a lot more besides."
This isn't a monk-hate stance, it's a "Paiso will you please improve the monk" stance.
I actually posted a Halfling pure Qinggong reach monk 2 pages back that I would play. (actually I lied. I don't normally dump int so you can remove 2 dex from that build). Is he a damage monstrosity? Nope. But he's good enough in my group.
If you allow the agile amulet I can turn that qinggong monk into a pure unarmed character and post you a character build. I personally don't touch that item in the forums because some people consider relying on that amulet a sin.
But here's my stance: Can Paizo improve the monk so that it requires less system mastery to make a decent character? Sure.
Do I think its as horrible a class as a lot of people on the forums makes it out to be? Not really.
I would say remove the Two-weapon penalty on FoB and give the monk a full BAB. They're never going to be able to cause as much damage per hit as a fighter or barbarian, at least allow them a better chance to hit more to make up for it.
I agree... there really isn't a class that is high-accuracy low damage
If you put the monk back at 1/2 power attack and 1x strength on unarmed strikes you could really justify the monk having the highest attack bonus in the game. This would then cascade into making them the best at maneuvers, which I think they should be.
I have a monk I built up from 1 to 12 for another thread. Here he is at 10 and 12.
** spoiler omitted **...
Do you use your shurikens a lot? I've found I haven't used mine since like level 4. The range is too short and when I am in range, I tend to engage in melee anyway.
Retraining out Point-blank shot and Far Shot with Dragon Style and Dragon Ferocity.
Level 10
Unarmed Strike +15 (4d6+13/x2)
Flurry of Blows Unarmed +16/+16/+11/+11 (2d6+10/x2)Level 12
Unarmed Strike +18 (4d8+14/19-20x2)
Flurry of Blows Unarmed +19/+19/+14/+14/+9 (2d8+11/19-20x2)Also, the Amulet of Mighty Fists is cheaper now in the Core Book Errata.
Far Shot and Point Blank Shot are probably not the most efficient selections, but it would be reasonable to assume that someone might take them. Each one significantly improves the performance of shurikens. Also, I made him as Core only, so the style feats weren't available.
All that said, if other sources were allowed, that would be a good change to make along with the ones I already mentioned. I would also pick up Blood Crow Strike in place of Tongue of the Sun and Moon at level 17, but that is pretty late.
He would also pick up Lunge next level (13th) and replace his boots with Winged Boots as soon as possible.
The thing is I think that a monk that is made at least halfway intelligently will not be too far off from any other class with the same level of optimization. Once you get into the crazy, multi-source optimization it really starts to fall behind unless you are a true master of the system.
Oh, and I'm pretty sure I got the price for the Amulet of Mighty Fists right. 4,000gp at +1 and 16,000gp at +2.
Edit: I can also post what he looks like at any other level up to 12. I am halfway tempted to advance him a little just for fun.
Aomf got errata'd. It is in the official FAQ as well. +1 costs 2500g and +2 costs 10, 000
This was a necessary change and it acually still a bit high. I think this is because of druids more than monks which is why I think there should be a caveat in "bodywraps of mighty striking" to work on all flurry attacks if you have flurry. Druids can't activate them anyway.
I agree, I regard the Qingong as a "true" monk, insofar as he is a kick-b**t martial artist with mystic powers. However, I haven't seen a pure qingong put forward as an option either. The fact that you need to cross several archetypes just makes the point that monks are not much good without a lot of system mastery, and that's part of the issue some of us have with monks.
The worst thing is, a lot of those archetypes aren't strong options, they are just better options than a core monk, usually allowing him to do one thing well. There's not much a monk - or even an archetype - can do as their signature ability that you can't point to another class and say "They do it better/as well and they do a lot more besides."
This isn't a monk-hate stance, it's a "Paiso will you please improve the monk" stance.
I actually posted a Halfling pure Qinggong reach monk 2 pages back that I would play. (actually I lied. I don't normally dump int so you can remove 2 dex from that build). Is he a damage monstrosity? Nope. But he's good enough in my group.
If you allow the agile amulet I can turn that qinggong monk into a pure unarmed character and post you a character build. I personally don't touch that item in the forums because some people consider relying on that amulet a sin.
But here's my stance: Can Paizo improve the monk so that it requires less system mastery to make a decent character? Sure.
Do I think its as horrible a class as a lot of people on the forums makes it out to be? Not really.
The class needs some love though.
I look at the magus arcana pool and divine bond and then at Ki and have to wonder why monks can't get the same deal... let them activate Ki to add enhancement to their unarmed strikes just like a magus can to a weapon. That right there would gI've them the best unarmed strikes in the game
Do you have the link for that? I think Lord Twig was right. I was thinking of the new cost to manufacture instead of the price to purchase.
Aomf got errata'd. It is in the official FAQ as well. +1 costs 2500g and +2 costs 10, 000This was a necessary change and it...
Yeah, I was wondering as well. Here is what I am working off of: Amulet of Mighty Fists
This is a reduction from the original +1 for 5,000 and +2 for 20,000.
The Monk doesn't need full BAB, however as power creep occurs and the other classes become more powerful due to more options becoming available, I'd like to see future design of the Monk focus on
- More ki
- More martial styles, in particular styles which have a ki pool as a prereq and designed for post-lvl 9 characters (particularly feats which grant bonuses to CMB)
- An option which allows Monks to spend wealth on gaining feats so that they become less gear dependent
Because money isn't too controlled by by levels (WBL being more like a suggestion) so I don't think that the last thing would work but as soon as I was introduced to style feats I didn't understand why that wasn't the monk's thing in the first place.
For a 'martial artist' class, martial art styles should have been central to the class features. If Flurry of blows is the equivolent of three feats I'd gladly house rule to allow one style feat chain to replace it.
On ki, I long thought that ki was way too limited and there not being enough to make it worth doing it. It could easily be used to do so much to define the monk. While Quigong helps out a lot to make the monk versatile but I think that it's existence shows evidence that monk is a messed up class and that there was not enough design space to allow for ki powers to go in without gutting the monk.
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Step 4: Maneuvers
A monk needs to be king of something, so lets make it maneuvers.
Add the Greater version of each maneuver feat to the Monk's bonus feats at level 6 and the 'Strike' versions at level 10. No more Combat Expertise feat tax.
you never played a maneuver master... have you? against most targets a maneuver master can net over 12 strikes against a single target at a massive bonus to hit. mind you most targets means they need to have an anatomy and be able to be tripped. but you can get a massive bonus to trip with a 3 feats and an enchantment.
move, eye poke, trip, stunning fist. now you are blind, prone, and flat footed thats a cumulative -6 +(no dex bonus)so at that point they are pretty much your play thing, mixing in twf chain and medusa's wrath (i know but i does work well enough if you stack wisdom).
Step 4: Maneuvers
A monk needs to be king of something, so lets make it maneuvers.
Add the Greater version of each maneuver feat to the Monk's bonus feats at level 6 and the 'Strike' versions at level 10. No more Combat Expertise feat tax.
you never played a maneuver master... have you? against most targets a maneuver master can net over 12 strikes against a single target at a massive bonus to hit. mind you most targets means they need to have an anatomy and be able to be tripped. but you can get a massive bonus to trip with a 3 feats and an enchantment.
move, eye poke, trip, stunning fist. now you are blind, prone, and flat footed thats a cumulative -6 +(no dex bonus)so at that point they are pretty much your play thing, mixing in twf chain and medusa's wrath (i know but i does work well enough if you stack wisdom).
My problem with maneuver master is that you get -12 to each of those three extra maneuvers.This is actually worse than a standard flurry if you are using maneuvers that can replace an attack. The only thing I can see as a possible use for maneuver master is to grapple then pin (only using two maneuvers so they are just at -5) then finishing the attack with a free rapid grapple attack and your iterative attacks plus medusas wrath.
If you are tripping with a maneuver master... you must be trippin
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maneuver master monk 10/fighter 2
human
Ht twf
1 WF unarmed strike
m improved dirty trick
m improved trip
3 dazzling display
5 combat reflexes
m greater trip
7 vicious stomp
9 shatter defenses
f something in here cant remember
11 improved TWF
m Medusa's wrath
f (12)fury's fall
this is basically what i remember off the top of my head. if i had more time i could find the actual character, but this is close enough for you to tweak.
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I actually posted a Halfling pure Qinggong reach monk 2 pages back that I would play. (actually I lied. I don't normally dump int so you can remove 2 dex from that build). Is he a damage monstrosity? Nope. But he's good enough in my group.
I confess I missed that. But the Qingong still suffers from the monk's three primary problems:
MADCostly/low enhancement
3/4 or restricted BAB
If you allow the agile amulet I can turn that qinggong monk into a pure unarmed character and post you a character build. I personally don't touch that item in the forums because some people consider relying on that amulet a sin.
The agile focussed builds moderate MAD a bit, for a feat-tax. The problem is they then have problems getting through DR at high levels as their AoMF is restricted to agile +4, which is never going to get them through DR/alignment (except Lawful, but what the hell has DR/lawful? Not much!).
The sin with the amulet is that it's the only option, and it's a bad option.
But here's my stance: Can Paizo improve the monk so that it requires less system mastery to make a decent character? Sure.
Do I think its as horrible a class as a lot of people on the forums makes it out to be? Not really.
It's not horrible, but it is mechanically weak with problems contributing to the party dynamic. If you are playing a solo game, a monk is not a bad (though not the first) choice.
The Monk doesn't need full BAB, however as power creep occurs and the other classes become more powerful due to more options becoming available, I'd like to see future design of the Monk focus on
- More ki
- More martial styles, in particular styles which have a ki pool as a prereq and designed for post-lvl 9 characters (particularly feats which grant bonuses to CMB)
- An option which allows Monks to spend wealth on gaining feats so that they become less gear dependent
The monk didn't need power creep to make him less powerful than other classes, but having the magus and the inquisitor there makes it clear that 3/4 BAB with no enhancement is a non-starter.
However:
- More ki doesn't solve the monk's main problems, it only helps a little here and there.
- More styles doesn't help much either, as there are limits on how you use them only the MoMS can get past, and the MoMS is not a very viable class in isolation. In fact the MoMS just ensures that other classes get more out of styles than the monk does, by dipping MoMS.
- The problems the monk has to fix with equipment are not the kind of problems feats can fix, so I do not see how this will achieve anything.
My own solutions to the monk problem are in this thread and the changes I would use are in this document.
My thinking is:
- Rather than more ki, let ki enable the monk to do what he should be good at - get around the battlefield and still hit things a few times. This makes the monk's mobility an asset to everyone and not just a means of running away.
- Use ki-strike more logically to bypass all kinds of DR incrementally with level, and give an enhancement bonus to the unarmed strike - than that +5 cap from the AoMF is only restricting the monk to the same level as other classes with their weapons but doesn't give an unneeded boost to monsters and druids. This lets the monk hit and damage most things with his unarmed strike. When I tested this, monks don't do damage to compete with fighters or barbarians, but they do consistently hit and do damage to just about everything, and when an object needs smashing it's amusing to see the barbarian say "you first" to the monk.
- Reduce the monks other main problem, MAD, by hinging the class on Wisdom in actuality by allowing the monk to use wis-to-hit and wis-to-CMB. This also takes the emphasis off damage by making non-strength builds viable without a massive feat tax, compensating for the damage boost by having the automatic enhancement.
Weapon Finesse lets the monk use dex to hit and there are a few style feats which apply wisdom to damage (there's also Dragon Ferocity/Elemental Fist which is much better than adding wis to damage).
I don't think the Monk is MAD (unless depending on dex and wis makes him MAD).
Well, unless monks get those things with little to no investment he still needs high wis/str/dex/con. That doesn't look very SAD to me.
Hmm,.. I'm currently playing a MoMS and didn't look at the prereqs for those feats.
They do have prerequisites. Even elemental fist.
Can Sohei be combined with MoMS? Because that would make an amazing Monk.
HeroLab says it's possible, but then complains about the same class feature being replaced twice, so I don't know what is the correct answer.
Can Sohei be combined with MoMS? Because that would make an amazing Monk.
HeroLab says it's possible, but then complains about the same class feature being replaced twice, so I don't know what is the correct answer.
Sohei lets you choose mounted combat feats in addition to the feats you can already choose from. This is the same as replacing a class feature. Master of many styles replaces your bonus feat selection with style feats.
Mounted Combat isn't a type of feat though so... yeah. It gives you nothing but still replaces it, which is just weird imo. I've been told its not the only wonky archetype in Ultimate Combat.
Maneuver Master is for dipping...
Definitely. Best monk archetype for fondue.
Can Sohei be combined with MoMS? Because that would make an amazing Monk.
HeroLab says it's possible, but then complains about the same class feature being replaced twice, so I don't know what is the correct answer.
Sohei lets you choose mounted combat feats in addition to the feats you can already choose from. This is the same as replacing a class feature. Master of many styles replaces your bonus feat selection with style feats.
Mounted Combat isn't a type of feat though so... yeah. It gives you nothing but still replaces it, which is just weird imo. I've been told its not the only wonky archetype in Ultimate Combat.
:(
That's really disappointing... I even had a build:
Male Human (Azlanti) Monk (Master of Many Styles, Sohei, Qinggong Monk) 12
LN Medium Humanoid (human)
Init +10; Senses Perception +24
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Defense
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AC 28, touch 13, flat-footed 26 (+7 armor, +3 shield, +2 Dex, +5 natural, +1 deflection)
hp 105 (12d8+48)
Fort +14, Ref +13, Will +14; +4 vs. effects that cause you to lose your grip on weapons, +2 bonus vs. sleep, paralysis, and stunning, +2 vs. enchantment spells and effects
Defensive Abilities evasion, improved evasion
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Offense
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Speed 30 ft.
Melee Unarmed strike +21/+16 (1d6+24/x2)
Ranged +1 Adaptive Composite longbow (Str +4) +15/+10 (1d8+11/x3)
Special Attacks ki strike, cold iron/silver, ki strike, lawful, ki strike, magic, weapon trainings (bows +3, monk +4)
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Statistics
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Str 25, Dex 14, Con 16, Int 12, Wis 16, Cha 7
Base Atk +9; CMB +16 (+18 Grappling); CMD 29 (33 vs. Disarm, 33 vs. Sunder)
Feats Combat Reflexes (3 AoO/round), Combat Style Master, Dragon Ferocity +3, 1d4+7 rds, Dragon Style, Improved Unarmed Strike, Panther Claw, Panther Style (3/round), Power Attack -3/+6, Skill Focus (Perception) (Focused Study), Skill Focus (Sense Motive) (Focused Study), Snake Fang, Toughness, Weapon Focus (Unarmed strike)
Traits Quain Martial Artist, Reactionary
Skills Acrobatics +17, Escape Artist +17, Knowledge (religion) +16, Perception +24, Sense Motive +24, Stealth +17, Survival +3 (+5 to avoid becoming lost)
Languages Azlanti, Common, Draconic
SQ brawling, devoted guardian +6, fuse style (3 styles), ki defense, ki pool, ki weapon +3, maneuver training, monastic mount (24 hp), unarmed strike (1d6)
Other Gear +3 Brawling Chain shirt, +2 Mithral Buckler, +1 Adaptive Composite longbow (Str +4), Amulet of mighty fists +1, Belt of physical might (Str & Con +4), Cloak of resistance +3, Feather step slippers, Gloves of dueling, Headband of inspired wisdom +2, Ioun stone (clear spindle), Ring of protection +1, Wayfinder (empty), 2445 GP
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Special Abilities
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Brawling Unarmed strikes count as magic for bypassing DR.
Combat Reflexes (3 AoO/round) Can make extra attacks of opportunity/rd, and even when flat-footed.
Combat Style Master May switch styles as a free action
Devoted Guardian +6 (Ex) At 1st level, a sohei can always act in a surprise round even if he does not notice his enemies, though he remains flat-footed until he acts. In addition, a sohei gains a bonus on initiative rolls equal to 1/2 his monk level. At 20th level, a sohei's
Dragon Ferocity +3, 1d4+7 rds Gain bonus on unarmed attacks, and you can cause opponents to be shaken
Dragon Style +2 vs sleep, paralysis, and stun, first unarmed strike in a rd deals 1.5x Str, and can ignore difficult terrain/allies when charging.
Evasion (Ex) If you succeed at a Reflex save for half damage, you take none instead.
Feather step slippers Ignore difficult terrain as though affected by feather step.
Fuse Style (3 styles) (Ex) At 1st level, a master of many styles can fuse two of the styles he knows into a more perfect style. The master of many styles can have two style feat stances active at once. Starting a stance provided by a style feat is still a swift action, but whe
Gloves of dueling These supple gloves grant the wearer a +4 bonus to her CMD against disarm attacks, attempts to sunder her wielded weapons, and effects that cause her to lose her grip on her weapons (such as grease). The wearer doesn't drop held weapons when panicked or stunned. If the wearer has the weapon training class feature and is using an appropriate weapon, her weapon training bonus increases by +2.
Improved Evasion (Ex) If you succeed at a Reflex save for half damage, you take none instead. If you fail you take half damage.
Improved Unarmed Strike Unarmed strikes don't cause attacks of opportunity, and can be lethal.
Ioun stone (clear spindle) Sustains bearer without food or water.
Ki Defense (Su) A monk can spend 1 point from his ki pool to give himself a +4 dodge bonus to AC for 1 round.
Ki Pool (Su) You have a ki pool equal to 1/2 your monk level + your Wisdom modifier.
Ki Strike, Cold Iron/Silver (Su) If you have ki remaining, unarmed strikes count as cold iron and silver to overcome DR.
Ki Strike, Lawful (Su) If you have ki remaining, unarmed strikes count as lawful to overcome DR.
Ki Strike, Magic (Su) If you have ki remaining, unarmed strikes count as magic to overcome DR.
Ki Weapon +3 (Su) At 4th level, as a swift action, a sohei may spend 1 point from his ki pool to grant any weapon he wields (including his unarmed strike) a +1 enhancement bonus on attack and damage rolls, increasing by +1 per four levels after 4th to a maximum
Maneuver Training (Ex) CMB = other BABs + Monk level
Monastic Mount (24 HP) (Su) At 4th level, a sohei may spend 1 point from his ki pool to grant his mount temporary hit points equal to twice his level for 1 hour per level. In addition, as long as the sohei and his mount are adjacent, including when mounted, the mount gai
Panther Claw Retaliate as a free action instead of as a swift action
Panther Style (3/round) Retaliate against opponents that take attacks of opportunity against you
Power Attack -3/+6 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage.
Snake Fang If opponent misses you, make an attack of opportunity as an immediate action
Unarmed Strike (1d6) The Monk does lethal damage with his unarmed strikes.
Wayfinder (empty) A small magical device patterned off ancient relics of the Azlanti, a wayfinder is typically made from silver and bears gold accents. With a command word, you can use a wayfinder to shine (as the light spell). The wayfinder also acts as a nonmagical (magnetic) compass, granting you a +2 circumstance bonus on Survival checks to avoid becoming lost. All wayfinders include a small indentation designed to hold a single ioun stone.
Requirements Craft Wondrous Item, light; Cost 250 gp
Weapon Training (Bows) +3 (Ex) +3 Attack, Damage, CMB, CMD with Bows
Weapon Training (Monk) +4 (Ex) +4 Attack, Damage, CMB, CMD with Monk weapons
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What tends to nail the Monk's slippers to the floor is the fact that FoB is a full attack. To be mobile, the Monk needs to keep his attack rate up without relying on FoB. There are several ways he can already do thisbut these all circle around using feats which can make a Monk fill like a parched man in the Sahara begging for a cup of feat slots. It is going to feel worse as more feat options are published in the future. More feat slots would help a lot with this.
- Style Feats
- retraining into Dimensional Dervish
- reach feats such as Marid style
My solution is much simpler: Allow the ki-point for an extra attack to apply to ANY attack action, and allow the ki-point for 20' be a 20' move as the swift action. It makes the monk better at mobile combat without being overpowered, and lets you use your feat slots for what they were intended.
??
Use ki-strike more logically to bypass all kinds of DR incrementally with level, and give an enhancement bonus to the unarmed strike - than that +5 cap from the AoMF is only restricting the monk to the same level as other classes with their weapons but doesn't give an unneeded boost to monsters and druids. This lets the monk hit and damage most things with his unarmed strike. When I tested this, monks don't do damage to compete with fighters or barbarians, but they do consistently hit and do damage to just about everything, and when an object needs smashing it's amusing to see the barbarian say "you first" to the monk.
To expand, I tried replacing ki-strike with two separate features.
1) Unarmed strike can bypass 1 DR or Hardness of ANY type per level. So a 4th level monk punching a wererat is only encountering DR 1/silver rather than DR 5/silver. The effect of this was to make the monk the master of "I can hurt it. Whatever it is, I can do some damage." That means his stunning fist got more effective because damaging through DR was almost a given. It also means when the party need to break anything (like iron doors), it's the monk's job.2) Ki-strike instead functions like greater magic weapon/fang with increments at 4th, 7th, 10th, 13th and 16th levels. This keeps pace with the magic weapons everyone else is using in terms of accuracy, and stops the monk being utterly dependent on just one horrible item.
I was worried the latter would be too much, but actually it's not.
Actually, yes it does. Look at every other class, and they need one high score and a bunch of moderate ones to work:
Reduce the monks other main problem, MAD, by hinging the class on Wisdom in actuality by allowing the monk to use wis-to-hit and wis-to-CMB. This also takes the emphasis off damage by making non-strength builds viable without a massive feat tax, compensating for the damage boost by having the automatic enhancement.Weapon Finesse lets the monk use dex to hit and there are a few style feats which apply wisdom to damage (there's also Dragon Ferocity/Elemental Fist which is much better than adding wis to damage).
I don't think the Monk is MAD (unless depending on dex and wis makes him MAD).
- Full BAB classes need either strength or dex, and the other physical scores are moderate. The ranger needs moderate wisdom, the paladin moderate charisma, but they get more to compensate for that and can usually reduce one of their physical stats without harming them much.
- Rogues need good dexterity, and a few moderate scores depending on your build.
- 2/3 casters need a pretty good casting stat and usually another pretty good stat. They all have the ability to self-buff at least some of their stats.
- Full casters only need their casting stat maxed out, everything else is a bonus.
- Monk needs good wisdom for his abilities and AC, and maxed out dex or strength for combat, and moderates elsewhere. He can't buff up. A monk needs more good scores than any other class to function. Even if you go the finesse route, you have to have high dex and wis and other scores moderately good on top of paying a feat-tax.
My solution is to give the monk wis-to-hit for unarmed strike and monk weapons. That way he only needs one high score and a couple of moderate ones, just like everyone else. It also takes the emphasis off damage per hit and places it on hitting more often when combined with my other alterations. So far, from my tests these enable the monk to deal damage consistently with effects like stunning fist actually working more often, while leaving the role of star damage dealer right where it already is.
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The fact that the monk class requires a certain mental investment on the part of the player is a feature, not a bug.
Fighters require a ton of tactical thinking. Monks only require more and heavy investment because they suck.
Please, tell us more about how you love the monk sucking.
Edit: I should add that its not tactical thinking that's happening. More than anything its applying bandaids to bring yourself up to par, which isn't really fun for anyone imo.
I don't want the monk class to be simple. That's what fighters are for. I want the monk to demand tactical thinking. The game needs to appeal to people of all skill levels, experience, and intelligence. I don't play fighters because they bore me.
Your simple solutions, Dabbler, are exactly what I don't want to see in monks.
The fact that the monk class requires a certain mental investment on the part of the player is a feature, not a bug.
My solutions are simple, yes, but the monk class is not simple even with my changes. Monks actually require a degree of tactical thinking to get the most out of them in play and that doesn't change - they just have a few more tactical options that are actually viable. However, what changes is that if you make one mistake in your build you haven't crippled the monk for the rest of their (short) career as an adventurer - THAT I want to change.
All classes should be playable by an amateur, and have more scope in the hands of an expert, and the fighter is actually a very good example of this. If you haven't been able to make an interesting fighter that you can play, I'd question your claimed skill level - of course if the flavour of the fighter is not to your liking, that's another matter entirely, but it's not what you are saying. Currently the monk is only really playable by an expert, and that's a major problem with the monk.
Simple solutions have this much: they are easily tested, they are easy to implement. In the case of my changes, I've tested them and they work great so far.
All classes should be playable by an amateur, and have more scope in the hands of an expert, and the fighter is actually a very good example of this.There's never been a time when all classes were playable by an amateur. I'm not convinced that that ever can be the case in DnD without losing the appeal for players who need more challenge.
Yeah! Amateurs don't deserve to play. This game is serious business! True geeks only! Amirite?
Yeah! Amateurs don't deserve to play. This game is serious business! True geeks only! Amirite?I obviously didn't say that.
No, but that's what it leads to if your not careful and that's how your coming off, or at least that's how I read it. To be honest the classes that require tactical thinking and skill are more so casters, who make use of the grid map to aim and control the battlefield and decide what spells to bring. The fact is, the monk requires it because its not really up to par and requires you to jump through hoops to make it so, and you have to invest in items/feats and replace class features in order to do so. That isn't tactical thinking, that's applying a bandaid. Same with fighter, its not that fighter is amazing if you do x and y, its that your trying to make up for inherent shortcomings like a lack of skills or options.
I should add its entirely possible to make a game where everything is playable and system mastery only makes them better. However I don't think the point of the monk is to suck unless you have system mastery. I think its inherently flawed, and that this point is misleading. Even if that is how the monk is now, I don't think that's a good thing.
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How you choose to read it is a personal problem.
How you choose to read it is a personal problem as is your perception of monks. I can do this too.
Due to his movement and diverse attack options, the monk requires use of the grid map, control of the battlefield, and good sense of choosing the right options that casters do. The difference is that players of casters need to be familiar with more spells whereas players of monks need a better mastery of the grid map.
Diverse attack options? Like what? The maneuvers he doesn't do better than anyone else and can even choose not to have? The flurry he can only use with a five foot step?
And what's this movement thing. He's not really that much better if any than other characters. All he has is extra movement. He doesn't have an extra ability that lets him ignores AoOs. Characters with Litany of Sloth actually move better than he does x/day.
There isn't some amazing grid mastery. You move to flank. No more than anyone else has mastery. Unless you know some amazing monk secret I don't.
Also, do you really think monks take more mastery than casters do? That they have an amazing diverse set of options and great mobility? And that they have excellent battlefield control and a variety of options built into their class?
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The monk class should be highly flexible, that's why many of its powers are in its access to feats (whether we're talking about Panther, which is easier for monks to pick up and gives them an advantage wrt AoO) or the fact that feats do more for them (such as Punishing Kick and Touch of Serenity, both of which expands what monks can do).do you really think monks take more mastery than casters do?I never said they did. But, considering how many people have problems with them, while there are other players (not including me) who don't, the monk class clearly requires a level of mastery which isn't widespread.
There are a few flaws in your argument.
1.The only real battlefield control that monks have is stunning fist/touch of serenity/punishing kick and scorpion style feats, which all require both a 3/4 BaB class to sucessfully make an attack with little to no ways to buff a single attack, and they allow a save that is fort/will, which are often relatively high. And since rarely will a melee frontline character be more than 5 ft. away, scorpion style is more of a joke, or a viable(ish) tactic to use to perform the "Run the S#!+ away" combat maneuver, and then, stunning fist trumps it.2.You don't get Stunning Fist+Punishing Kick+Touch of Serenity all in the same build until level 13, and that is if you burn 2 feats on the 2 you don't get for free, and you don't choose an archetype like flowing monk/weapon adept/sohei that replace the bonus feat. Until then, you are limited to 1 of those options.
3.The monk class doesn't require much mastery, just a copy of the APG/UM. A sohei in armor with nodachi flurry is pretty effective, so is a Zen Archer with a bow. The mastery is only needed when you want to use the monk class to make a monk-type character (a Shirtless Face Puncher)
Now, I have 2 questions
1.)Does a Champion of Irori PrC seem like a "monk" character? I mean, you are still a faceless shirt puncher with slightly faster than normal movement, a bunch of attacks, and a mystical ki pool. If so, then I may post one to be compared.
2.)Justin Rocket, are any of those monk builds you say you are working on done yet?
Not true.
So what can they do? Anything in particular reliably?