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to be added to the core rogue, this feature is an adapted version of the advanced rogue talent Skill Mastery, granted earlier in the rogue's career, with a lesser breadth (at least initially), and keyed to a different (more appropriate) ability score.
Confidence Scheme (Ex):
Upon reaching 5th level, the rogue becomes so confident in the use of certain skills that she can use them reliably even under adverse conditions. She selects a number of skills equal to her Charisma modifier (minimum one). When making a skill check with one of these skills, she may take 10 even if stress and distractions would normally prevent her from doing so. The rogue may choose another set of skills to scheme at 9th, 13th, and 17th level.
too early? too mad? other thoughts?
to me what is most interesting is that even though i have 'reflavoured' the title, the description is essentially unchanged, and yet seems to fit naturally.
Why you used Cha bonus? The ability to use certain skill with a superior mastery depend most on the knowledge you have in that ability, rather than your personality. If you want to change the key ability, I would suggest wisdom, as it seems to fit better: something like "you have the ability to keep calm when the others are too much troubled to do things with the necessary cold blood".
I was expecting something to do with the Bluff skill; selling snake oil or setting up pyramid schemes--that sort of thing.
If you implemented this, you'd be removing the "Skill Mastery" advanced rogue talent?
Also, why Charisma?
I suppose it is about the «confidence» part of the ability. You trust yourself and your skills so much that you ignore stress and distraction.
According to me, this is not the more natural stat to a skill oriented ability, but it can be explained.
I don't find it too mad, but a little bit over the top : i mean, at 9th level, my +2 Cha modifier rogue can't fail Stealth, Perception, Bluff and Acrobatics. No more stress.
One skill per confidence sheme is enough, with maybe a little boost to the roll (+2 or +3, like a skill focus could give).
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Blackstorm, Detect Magic,
Without shoehorning the character design vector but narratively (using a descriptive title), a rogue who wants to utilize the colloquialism can invest a 14 in Charisma and choose Bluff and Intimidate as their confidence schemes. Or, she can dump Charisma and decide at 5th level that she wants to be amazing and amazingly confident at Acrobatics.
Charisma for three reasons (flavor, realism, gamism).
1) 'flavor'. honestly, one could find an explanation for any of the three 'mental' ability scores to key off this ability. take Wisdom, the ability could instead be called Level Headed or Cool Under Fire or Steady Under Pressure or some such. so, given that, i chose Charisma because the potential titles for the ability seemed more promising.
2) 'realism'. for the same reason Sorcerers cast and Clerics channel, or any character tries to Use Magic Device, that the ability score represents a little more than just personality/magnetism/leadership/appearance. namely that sort of metaphysical ability to apply force of will over material/social/magical things (and how that power might possibly be the soil from which the other attractive characteristics sprout).
2) 'gamism'. i intend to introduce a little Multiple Ability Dependency ('mad' or 'madness') into my version of the rogue, splitting class features over Intelligence (for my streetwise pool) and Charisma (for this).
Kelazan,
taking 10 is really good for a low to moderate Risk to Reward Ratio, but nigh useless for a high one in all but the most favorable circumstances and only with serious character investment - if that. though i can see your argument for most of the skill uses you cite, i can say that this ability probably wont help a rogue trying to notice an above CR trap nor tumble across the square of an above CR foe, as those DCs run high to excessively high. that is, for the rolls that are the least mundane and thus most cinematic, the rogue will still have to roll the dice. it's one thing to con a 'dull-witted opponent' - quite another to trick a powerful NPC who is central to a game's plot fabric.
compare that to spellcasters at 5th level being able to use spells to gain anywhere from a +10 (Disguise Self) to a +40 (Invisibility) on certain skill checks. this helps put it into perspective for me. and i'm not even going to talk about 5th level spells!
what would be over the top would be allowing them to roll 1d20, and if the result landed below 10 on the dice to 'take 10' as a consolation. i momentarily considered this idea before abandoning it as too good.
thanks for the feedback.
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take two.
name change.
also, so as to keep Skill Mastery, this ability upgraded to include twice-rolling, re-rolling, and taking 20, scaling with rogue level. (that said, i am considering changing Skill Mastery to "with any skill you have ranks in...")
Upon reaching 5th level, the rogue becomes so confident in the use of certain skills that she can use them reliably even under adverse conditions. She selects a number of skills equal to her Charisma modifier (minimum one). When making a skill check with one of these skills, she may take 10 even if stress and distractions would normally prevent her from doing so. The rogue may choose another set of skills to execute at 9th, 13th, and 17th level.
At 9th level, The rogue may instead choose to roll twice when making a skill check with one of her selected skills, taking the better result. This is a free action. A rogue can use skill execution in this way a number of times per day equal to her Charisma modifier (minimum once).
At 13th level, instead of rolling twice, the rogue may use her skill execution to re-roll a skill check after the result of the first check is known. She is bound to the results of this re-roll, even if it is worse.
At 17th level, instead of rolling twice, the rogue may use her skill execution to take 20 with one of her selected skills. This does not increase the time it takes to make the check.
thoughts?
too good?
I like this. My problem with the take one was the number of skills that could be selected over a rogue's levelling. Now, the rogue start with 1, 2 or maybe 3 skills and his mastery of these skills increases over the time. It's flavourful : the rogue is a specialist, not a generalist like the bard. He picks his own specific field, and thank to his self confidence, perform very well in it. I like this, and I may try to adjust my own Skill Training progression to consider these possibilities.
However, i just notice something. This class feature overlap a lot with skill oriented rogue talents, especially the reroll stuff. I guess that you can erase these rogue talent from the list.
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Kelazan,
i have considered your reading of the ability with the following analysis.
The rogue may choose another set of skills to execute at 9th, 13th, and 17th level
, we end up with the following paradigm:
CHA 7+ - 1/2/3/4 special skills at 5th/9th/13th/17th with 1/day privileges
CHA 14 - 2/4/6/8 skills with 2/day
CHA 16 - 3/6/9/12 skills with 3/day
CHA 18 - 4/8/12/16 skills with 4/day
CHA 20 - 5/10/15/20 skills with 5/day
CHA 30 - 10/20/30/40 skills with 10/day
if we follow your reading, striking that sentence, we get:
CHA 7+ - 1 special skill with 1/day privileges
CHA 14 - 2 skills with 2/day
CHA 16 - 3 skills with 3/day
CHA 18 - 4 skills with 4/day
CHA 20 - 5 skills with 5/day
CHA 30 - 10 skills with 10/day
or, if we substitute "The rogue may add one more skill to her set at 9th level, and another at 13th and 17th levels" - a change i am now strongly considering - combined with "choose a set of skills equal to 1 + your Charisma bonus (if any)" - we yield a moderate:
CHA 7+ - 1/2/3/4 special skills at 5th/9th/13th/17th with 1/day privileges
CHA 12 - 2/3/4/5 skills with 1/day
CHA 14 - 3/4/5/6 skills with 2/day
CHA 16 - 4/5/6/7 skills with 3/day
CHA 18 - 5/6/7/8 skills with 4/day
CHA 20 - 6/7/8/9 skills with 5/day
CHA 30 - 11/12/13/14 skills with 10/day
and so i am inclined to follow the middle path, thus changing the ability to:
Upon reaching 5th level, the rogue becomes so confident in the use of certain skills that she can use them reliably even under adverse conditions. She selects a number of skills equal to . When making a skill check with one of these skills, she may take 10 even if stress and distractions would normally prevent her from doing so. The rogue may choose at 9th level, and another at 13th and 17th levels.
At 9th level, The rogue may instead choose to roll twice when making a skill check with one of her selected skills, taking the better result. This is a free action. A rogue can use skill execution in this way a number of times per day equal to her Charisma modifier (minimum once).
At 13th level, instead of rolling twice, the rogue may use her skill execution to re-roll a skill check after the result of the first check is known. She is bound to the results of this re-roll, even if it is worse.
At 17th level, instead of rolling twice, the rogue may use her skill execution to take 20 with one of her selected skills. This does not increase the time it takes to make the check.
which opens up another question. should the 'extra skill execution' feat grant one or two additional skills? or one extra skill and +1/day ability?...
also, all rogue talents with cool titles that used to offer twice-rolling 1/day +1/day per 5 rogue levels (Charmer, Fast Fingers, Hard to Fool, Honeyed Words, Peerless Maneuver) have been re-imagined under my Rogue Talents (alternate).
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Detect Magic,
to answer your earlier question, so as not to obsolete Skill Mastery, i am strongly considering:
Skill Mastery (alternate):
A rogue with this talent becomes the master of all skills. She can use any skill, even if the skill normally requires her to be trained. With skills she does have ranks in, the rogue may always take 10 even if it is not normally allowed.
...
thoughts?
other opinions?
I like your middle path option, it allows a progression in the number of skills without going with huge number of «special skills» in the case of high charisma rogues.
About the extra skill execution feat, I would personally go with a +1 skill, +1/day. It's like a phantom +1 Charisma modifier.
In the case of skill mastery, this new class feature seems to take all the flavor of the rogue talent. I could probably see it disappear entirely without a single tear.
I don't think that having a rogue talent obsolete an entire class feature is appropriate. I'd consider just eliminating "Skill Mastery" with the advent of "Skill Execution". That, or you could re-tool "Skill Mastery" to apply to a single skill and allow the rogue to take 15, instead.
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Detect Magic,
the above proposals are to have Skill Execution (a class feature) provide growing specialization with a narrow band of skills granting competence in a wide array of risk-reward ratios (low-high DCs), whereas Skill Mastery (an advanced talent) will provide moderate specialization with a wide band of skills granting competence in a narrow array of risk-reward ratios (low-medium DCs).
so, they are different enough to not render each other obsolete. further, one builds around Charisma, the other Intelligence.
Your proposed change to "Skill Mastery" doesn't mention Intelligence at all, but otherwise, I can see where you're coming from.
"Skill Execution", with its scaling benefits, is better than "Skill Mastery", but applies to less skills. So, there's that.
I suppose, another re-tooling of "Skill Mastery" might be that it can add additional skills to those that the rogue can use with "Skill Execution"?
That said, I can't see very many rogues choosing your current "Skill Mastery", even considering that it would apply to all skills, considering they're probably already going to be able to take 10 (and better yet, roll twice) when using the skills that they really want to be good at (2 + Cha modifier), via "Skill Execution". Assuming a 14 Cha, that's 4 skills, more than enough for most character concepts to thrive. Then again, some people enjoy the jack-of-all-trades, so take what I've said with a grain of salt.
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Skill Mastery's link to INT is implicit. since it allows a single rank in any skill to essentially trivialize any DC below 20, having additional skill points from INT provides a greater breadth of trivial mastery. i can see a character taking this talent to effectively Aid their allies' every skill check without nigh rolling a single d20. like you said, a jack-of-all-trades, which is in fact the salvage yard where i picked up and adapted the mechanics.
Skill Execution provides mechanical incentive to attempt some wild and risky skill checks, by allowing the rogue (with decent probability) to build a skill check off of a d20 result that starts in the teens. in a well-tuned game, this is often where the threshold between total victory and utter defeat lay.
the design goal behind my proposals is to elevate the rogue class in terms of it's relationship to skills as a mode of play, for though in all appearances the rogue presents itself as the go-to class for skills (with their 8 hard skill points), the game provides options for other classes to eclipse or nearly-eclipse this role. people on this message-board interface write extensively about this phenomenon - and though i take the debate with a grain of salt, i also see the kernel of truth amidst the often over-the-top conplaints. so, to keep with the spirit of the customizability of the rogue class, i wanted to counterpose specialization (CHA) and generalization (INT) within it.
and i appreciate your feedback.
finally, as a small tweak, should the "(1+CHA) per day" be changed back to just "(CHA) per day"?
...
also consider:
Extra Skill Execution (new feat):
Prerequisites: Skill Execution class feature
Benefit: You may choose another skill to add to your group of skills covered under your Skill Execution ability. You may always take 10 when using that selected skill, as normal. If you have the Skill Execution ability to roll twice when performing a skill check, you gain another daily use that ability.
Special: You may take this feat multiple times. Each time, select another skill to add to your group, and you gain another daily use of the ability to roll twice when performing a skill check.
maybe even a minor sweetener:
Skill Mastery (alternate):
A rogue with this talent becomes the master of all skills. She can use any skill, even if the skill normally requires her to be trained. With skills she does have ranks in, the rogue may always take 10 even if it is not normally allowed. Finally, if the rogue uses the Aid Another action to assist an ally with a skill check she has ranks in, she may instead grant a bonus to her ally's check equal to her Intelligence modifier (rather than just the +2).
A number of times per day equal to the rogue's Charisma modifier (minimum +1) seems fair. You could add a line similar to that pertaining to the gunslinger's "Grit" ability, allowing the rogue to recover these points whenever he "crits" with a skill roll (a natural 20), or maybe that's going too far.
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i considered using a Grit-like mechanic for my rogue pool, but the intended frequency of use of the pool abilities i liked outpace what a Grit-like point-recovery method could put out. plus, i don't want to rewrite all the rogue talents in terms of Grit points, which is a commendable effort (see SteelDraco's rogue!), as i prefer to see the resource-management mechanic divorced from the tacky X/day paradigm, creatively replaced instead with something like an ability that is:
1) always one
2) triggered via sneak attack
3) a swift/immediate action with a specific trigger
4) effectively unlimited but only once per target per 24 hours
or some combination thereof.
but yeah, ki-pool plus grit-pool plus several X/day abilities... lots of bookkeeping. your suggestion is tempting though...
for now, we are at:
Upon reaching 5th level, the rogue becomes so confident in the use of certain skills that she can use them reliably even under adverse conditions. She selects a number of skills equal to her . When making a skill check with one of these skills, she may take 10 even if stress and distractions would normally prevent her from doing so. The rogue may choose another skill to add to her set of skill execution skills at 9th level, and another at 13th and 17th levels.
At 9th level, The rogue may instead choose to roll twice when making a skill check with one of her selected skills, taking the better result. This is a free action. A rogue can use skill execution in this way a number of times per day equal to her Charisma modifier (minimum once).
At 13th level, instead of rolling twice, the rogue may use her skill execution to re-roll a skill check after the result of the first check is known. She is bound to the results of this re-roll, even if it is worse.
At 17th level, instead of rolling twice, the rogue may use her skill execution to take 20 with one of her selected skills. This does not increase the time it takes to make the check.
...
cheers
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ok i was doing some thinking about resource management today.
i am curious what would happen if my design vector was to totally avoid an X/day mechanic entirely, but keep the spirit of the ability (better results on d20 skill checks), and still scaling it appropriately (at 5th/9th/13th/17th). here is what i came up with:
Skill Execution (alternate):
Upon reaching 5th level, the rogue becomes so confident in the use of certain skills that she can use them reliably even under adverse conditions. She selects a number of skills equal to her Charisma bonus (minimum 1). When making a skill check with one of these skills, she may take 10 even if stress and distractions would normally prevent her from doing so. The rogue may choose another skill to add to her set of skill execution skills at 9th level, and another at 13th and 17th levels.
Instead of merely taking 10, a rogue my opt to roll two dice when making a skill check with one of her chosen skills, taking the better result.
At 9th level, when rolling twice, a rogue may choose to separate the rolls, rolling one dice first, and deciding based on that result whether she would like to go ahead and roll the second dice or just take 10.
At 13th level, a rogue may opt to roll three dice when making a skill check with one of her chosen skills, taking the best result.
At 17th level, when rolling thrice, a rogue may choose to separate the rolls, rolling two dice first, and deciding based on those results whether she would like to go ahead and roll the third dice or just take 10.
...
my initial analysis is that this modification addresses three 'tiers' of skill checks. the first 'tier' is skill checks whose DC is really low (say, below 20). a rogue may simply blow through these by taking 10 all day. the second 'tier' is skill checks that have a high DC, but no real penalty for failure. the 5th and 13th level abilities granted above (rolling twice and rolling thrice, respectively) are suited for that sort of check. the third 'tier' is skill checks that have a high DC and some sort of penalty for failure. the 9th and 17th level abilities granted above (rolling twice/thrice but with a take 10 lifeline) are suited for that sort of check.
is the fact that these are 'always on' too good?
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more thinking. i wanted to reel in the abilities by both keeping the set of 'chosen skills' as just CHA (no more) and by forcing continued investment in the skills ranks to gain access to the dice control:
Upon reaching 5th level, the rogue becomes so confident in the use of certain skills that she can use them reliably even under adverse conditions. She selects a number of skills equal to her Charisma bonus (minimum 1). So long the rogue has at least 5 ranks in one of her chosen skills, she may opt to roll two dice when making a skill check with that skill, taking the better result.
Upon reaching 9th level, a rogue may begin to invest a greater number of skill points in her chosen skills than her character level, exceeding the normal limit of maximum ranks invested in a single skill. She may invest up to one additional rank as a 9th level rogue, two additional ranks as a 13th level rogue, and three additional ranks as a 17th level rogue.
A rogue's ability to control the outcomes of her skill checks continues to grow. At 9th level, a rogue who has 10 or more ranks in a chosen skill may take 10 with that skill even if stress and distractions would normally prevent her from doing so. At 13th level, a rogue who has 15 or more ranks in a chosen skill may roll three times when making a skill check with that skill. At 17th level, a rogue who has 20 or more ranks in a chosen skill may take 20 on skill checks with that skill without increasing the time it takes to make the check.
...
thoughts?
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take 6
going with 'alternate 2' - +1/+2/+3 possible ranks at 9th/13th/17th
where 5/10/15/20 ranks permits rollx2/take10/rollx3/take20
as rogues have a lot of skill points, and these are 'dead-BAB levels', i wanted there to be something nice. 9th level is too late for early prestige-class shenanigans anyhow.
i am re-wiring the ability to key from it's original ability score, Intelligence:
:
Upon reaching 5th level, the rogue becomes so confident in the use of certain skills that she can use them reliably even under adverse conditions. The rogue chooses a number of skills equal to her modifier (minimum 1), retaining these hereafter as her execution skills. So long as the rogue has at least 5 ranks in one of her execution skills, she may roll two dice when making a skill check with that skill, taking the better result. A rogue may choose another skill to be an execution skill at 9th, 13th, and 17th levels.
Upon reaching 9th level, a rogue may begin to invest a greater number of skill points in her execution skills than normal, allowing her to exceed her character level in total ranks. She may invest up to one additional rank as a 9th level rogue, two additional ranks as a 13th level rogue, and three additional ranks as a 17th level rogue.
Finally, a rogue's ability to control the outcomes of her skill checks also continues to grow. At 9th level, a rogue who has 10 or more ranks in an execution skill may take 10 with that skill even if stress and distractions would normally prevent her from doing so. At 13th level, a rogue who has 15 or more ranks in an execution skill may roll three dice when making her skill check. At 17th level, a rogue who has 20 or more ranks in an execution skill may simply take 20 on her skill check without increasing the time it takes to make the check.
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admittedly, the 'ranks +1/2/3' thing is pretty wonky. back to basics. how about:
:
A rogue uses rigorous on-the-ground training and off-the-cuff thinking to develop and build upon her natural aptitudes, attaining the highest level of performance in her chosen profession. At 5th level she may choose a number of skills equal to her Intelligence modifier (minimum one) to be her execution skills. So long as the rogue has 5 or more ranks in one of her execution skills, she may roll twice when making a skill check with that skill, taking the better result.
At 9th level, and again at 13th and 17th levels, the rogue chooses another set of skills equal to her Intelligence modifier (minimum one) to become execution skills.
...
simpler, and discreet from Skill Mastery (below):
Skill Mastery (alternate advanced talent)
A rogue with this advanced talent becomes the master of all skills. She can use any skill, even if the skill normally requires her to be trained. With skills she does have ranks in, the rogue may always take 10 (instead of rolling) even if it is not normally allowed.
I agree with Skill Execution 3. You don't need to go overboard, after all.
Your Skill Mastery talent is basically Skill Mastery (all) and "use all skills untrained", which is a 10th-level bard ability. Skill Mastery (all) is powerful enough in itself, I think. (I could probably be persuaded otherwise, though.)
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do you think proposal #3 rewards investment in Intelligence too greatly by offering too many skills to roll twicely on?
(math)
5th level rogue:
INT 7-13 = 1 execution skill
INT 14 = 2 execution skills
INT 16 = 3 execution skills
INT 18 = 4 execution skills
INT 20 = 5 execution skills
9th level rogue:
INT 7-13 = 2 execution skills
INT 14 = 4 execution skills
INT 16 = 6 execution skills
INT 18 = 8 execution skills
INT 20 = 10 execution skills
INT 22 = 12 execution skills
13th level rogue:
INT 7-13 = 3 execution skills
INT 14 = 6 execution skills
INT 16 = 9 execution skills
INT 18 = 12 execution skills
INT 20 = 15 execution skills
INT 22 = 18 execution skills
INT 24 = 21 execution skills
17th level rogue:
INT 7-13 = 4 execution skills
INT 14 = 8 execution skills
INT 16 = 12 execution skills
INT 18 = 16 execution skills
INT 20 = 20 execution skills
INT 22 = 24 execution skills
INT 24 = 28 execution skills
INT 26 = 32 execution skills
compare to:
there are 22 skills and 10 knowledge skills, not including Craft, Perform, or Profession. of those (22+10) 32 skills, 18 are class skills for the core rogue.
or, is a rogue who invests heavily in Intelligence deserving of such mastery over the dice which govern skill checks?
Since Intelligence is retroactive, increase your Int increases your execution skills multiple times. I think Skill Execution 3 works fine, personally, but it might be better as a multiple-selection rogue talent, rather than as a freebie.
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I believe a rogue getting more skill oomph out of her INT score is a good thing.
:
At 3rd level, the rogue chooses a number of skills equal to her Intelligence bonus (minimum one). Whenever she uses one of these skills, she may either roll twice and take the better result, or simply take 10 on the roll, even if distractions would otherwise hinder her from doing so. At 7th level, and again every four rogue levels, she chooses another set of skills to become skill mastery skills.
01- Sneak Attack, Trapfinding
02- Rogue Talents, Evasion
03- Skill Mastery, Trap Sense
04- Rogue Talent, Uncanny Dodge
05-
06- Rogue Talent
07- Skill Mastery
08- Rogue Talent, Improved Uncanny Dodge
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beyond:
(version 4.5):
The rogue is the undisputed master of skills. Whenever using a skill for which she has invested maximum ranks, she gains a competence bonus to her check equal to half her rogue level (minimum +1).
At 3rd level, the rogue chooses a number of skills equal to her Intelligence bonus (minimum one). Whenever she uses one of these skills, she may either roll twice and take the better result, or simply take 10 on the roll, even if distractions would otherwise hinder her from doing so. At 7th level, and again every four rogue levels, she chooses another set of skills to become skill mastery skills.
01- Sneak Attack, Skill Mastery, Trapfinding
02- Rogue Talents, Evasion
03- Skill Mastery, Trap Sense
04- Rogue Talent, Uncanny Dodge
05-
06- Rogue Talent
07- Skill Mastery
08- Rogue Talent, Improved Uncanny Dodge
...
(thanks for the inspiration)
Does it seem strange that if at 16th level I decide to leave my ranks of stealth at 15, I suddenly and mysteriously lose out on a free +8? Feature or bug? I dunno.
What if instead of basing the number of skills on intelligence, the rogue simply choose a new skill mastery at each odd level?
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true, that is strange. but then again not so much. practice makes perfect, no? just because an olympic gymnast can stick a medal-winning maneuver once does not mean they can always do it - performance at that highest tier requires continuous practice, which means always putting a 'rank' in the skill you are perfecting.
how about 'floating ranks'?
(new feat):
Requirements: Skill Mastery, Rogue level 3+
Benefits: You gain +3 additional skill ranks. Unlike normal skill ranks, these ranks may be re-assigned each morning after 6 hours of rest. You gain +1 additional rank for every rogue level you attain, or for every four levels in a different character class.
...
The Olympic level performance analogy makes a certain amount of sense.
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also what's super clever about it is that it inventivizes class loyalty. since no other class gets 8 ranks, multiclassing makes it much harder to specialize in multiple skills.
concerning your suggestion to simply grant a mastery at each odd level, i wanted the mechanic to give a greater reward to a rogue who prioritizes Intelligence, without totally penalizing a rogue who doesn't. then again, the 'max rank bonus' does this implicitly (by allowing a high-INT rogue to get that competence bonus to a broader range of skills), never-the-less, having it function the way it is written allows a very-high-INT rogue (say 18 or 20) to double/triple-dip his INT score and get an impressive host of mastery skills, thus allowing an investigator-type rogue to be possible by arranging the ability scores differently (INT>DX vs DX>INT) within the same class chassis.
also, i might change the name back to Skill Execution, as i would like to keep the Skill Mastery advanced talent above.
Why six hours' rest and not the more typical eight?
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changes from above:
1) INT not double-dipped (thx Ciaran)
2) skill action economy increased (thx Kekkres)
3) the 'skill mastery' advanced talent (above) simply included (and expanded)
:
The rogue is the undisputed master of skills. Whenever using a skill for which she has invested maximum ranks, she gains a competence bonus to her check equal to half her rogue level (minimum +1).
At 3rd level, the rogue chooses a number of skills equal to her Intelligence bonus (minimum one). These skills become class skills. Whenever she uses one of these skills, she may either roll twice and take the better result, or simply take 10 on the roll, even if distractions would otherwise hinder her from doing so. Every odd rogue level thereafter (at 5th, 7th, 9th, etc.), she may choose another skill to be a skill mastery skill.
At 7th level, when using a skill mastery skill, the rogue may perform any action that is normally a standard action as a move action.
At 11th level, the rogue may treat all skills as class skills, may use any skill untrained, and may take 10 using any skill even if distractions would ordinarily prevent her.
At 15th level, when using a skill mastery skill, the rogue may perform any action that is normally a move action as a swift action.
At 19th level, when using a skill mastery skill, the rogue may perform any action that is normally a swift action as an immediate action.
...
01- Sneak Attack, Skill Mastery, Trapfinding
02- Rogue Talents, Evasion
03- Skill Mastery, Trap Sense
04- Rogue Talent, Uncanny Dodge
05-
06- Rogue Talent
07- Skill Mastery
08- Rogue Talent, Improved Uncanny Dodge
09-
10- Advanced Talents, Rogue Talent
11- Skill Mastery
...
more robust but worth the extra paragraphs?
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mastery skills may now be selected daily
:
Rogues inherently master many different kinds of skills - their general philosophy of living on the edge means they get continuous practice in doing so. A rogue who has invested the maximum number of ranks in a skill may add half her rogue level (minimum +1) as a competence bonus to skills checks with that skill. This is an extraordinary ability.
A rogue of 3rd level or higher may select a number of skills equal to 1 plus her Intelligence bonus (if any) every morning to be her mastery skills for that day. She may opt to roll twice or simply take 10 (rogue's choice) when using one of her daily mastery skills, no matter the circumstance. After 6 hours of rest and recovery, the rogue may prepare a new set. For every four additional rogue levels she attains, the rogue may prepare an additional mastery skill, until at 19th level she may prepare up to 5 plus her Intelligence bonus per day.
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changes to this iteration:
1) selection process simplified: max ranks only
2) vague language about 'action steps' eliminated
3) clarification on what skills can have time/action reduced explicit
4) border between standard and move action economy stricter
5) take 10 > take 20 circumstances made clearer
(version 7):
Rogues hone their bodies and minds through continuous practice, becoming capable of extraordinary feats of raw skill. A rogue gains a competence bonus to all skills she has maximum ranks for equal to half her rogue level (minimum +1). These skills are hereafter referred to as her mastery skills.
At 3rd level, when using a mastery skill, the rogue may elect to roll twice and take the better result or simply take 10 on the check, regardless of distractions. This does not increase the amount of time it takes to make the check.
At 7th level, when using a mastery skill, the rogue halves the amount of time required to make the check. Applications that normally require a full-round can be attempted as a standard action. This ability does not function with job skills (Craft, Perform, and Profession) nor with the skills which modify or enable movement (Acrobatics, Climb, Fly, Stealth, and Swim).
At 11th level, the rogue may treat all skills as class skills, may use any skill untrained, and may elect to take 10 on any skill check she makes with any skill.
At 15th level, when using a mastery skill, the rogue quarters the amount of time required to make the check. Applications that normally require a full-round or standard action can be attempted as a move action, and applications that normally require a move action can be attempted as a swift action. Similarly, this ability does not function with job or movement skills.
At 19th level, whenever circumstances would ordinarily allow for taking 10 on a skill check, the rogue may instead take 20, without increasing the amount of time required to make the check.
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seeking input on changes.
especially if this achieves the end of restoring rogue's place as king of skills.
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version 8.
much simplified.
directly interacts with cunning - (having both twice-rolling and re-rolling seems superfluous)
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Rogues are cool under pressure. A 2nd level rogue may always choose to take 10 with skills for which she has invested maximum ranks, regardless of distractions. When using her cunning ability to re-roll a skill check with one of these skills, if the re-roll results in a success, she does not expend a daily use of that ability.
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01- Sneak Attack, Trapfinding, Cunning 1/day
02- Rogue Talents, Skill Execution, Evasion
03- Trap Sense, Cunning 2/day
04- Rogue Talent, Uncanny Dodge
05-
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(i like talking to myself in this thread)
(also thx to Ciaran Barnes for the idea, whole-baked into the mechanic)
I'm reading. :)
I do like the brevity though.
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i am often biased towards brevity.
do you think the ability is too easy to dip at level two? one deterrent against it is the rogue's sheer number of skill points (8), meaning they can keep more skills maxed out than any other class. also, aside from interactivity with cunning (mitigated because it is a level-dependent resource), being able to 'take 10' doesn't seem attractive enough to abandon caster levels. i figure classes like bard and ranger would be tempted to dip, because they could sustain 6 skill points worth of maxed skills, as well as SAD but Intelligent classes like the wizard. in fact, this was the main argument against brevity in general.
and, though i like the "+1/2x if maxed" concept, and find it to be an even stronger deterrent against dipping, not only is it redundant with Trapfinding (which i would like to keep - especially because it makes maintaining rogue archetypes easy), it has less 'cool factor' than 'taking 10' does.
either way, i love the high risk-reward decision-moment of choosing to bank the loss of cunning (a valuable resource) against the prospect of succeeding on a re-rolled skill check! pure genius! using the 'take 10' model, this situation will only be reserved for truly high risk situations (where a mere 10 will not do), thus mechanically and thematically putting the rogue betwixt glorious success and utter defeat - which is where her place should be.
Maybe to dippy. You could move it to level 5.
The idea where take 10 is dropped, and instead having maxed ranks grants a bonus equal to 1/2 rogue level has its merits too. Did I understand that right? The downside to this is that it encourages only having maxed out skills. One of the first things I liked when I first delved into PF was that the +3 trained bonus encouraged dabbling in skills, so that characters are a bit more rounded out.
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"max ranks = privileges" plays two roles.
1) it incentivizes Intelligence (more skill points = more maxed out skills)
2) it incentivizes class loyalty (Intelligence being equal, more rogue levels = more skill points = more maxed out skills)
why i like the 'take 10' over the '+1/2x' is that it creates the following decision tree when rolling a skill check:
A) "should i just take 10 on this roll? is the DC low enough"
B) "i rolled, but probably not enough to make the check. should i just accept the failure? or should i bank 1 cunning on rolling higher?
C) the outcome is either rogue makes the check and keeps the cunning, or loses both!
this exchange is exciting and reflects what a competent and confident skill-user might be able to perform. it offers two choices in rolling the check, and has six possible outcomes - all without excessively bogging down play. and it gives skills a consistent reliability that is competitive with spells like Charm, Featherfall, Knock, Spider Climb, etc.
finally, while being marginally worried about dipping, i want cool abilities to come online early in the rogue's career - and am inclined to permit the former to ensure the latter.