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I've put together the following revision to the rogue base class. Please let me know what you think of these changes. There's a lot to it, so I've tried to use spoiler tags to break things down a bit into more manageable chunks.
I'm interested in any opinions people have, mostly concerning whether or not it fixes perceived problems with the rogue class, and if it's balanced.
The goals of this revision are as follows:
- Combine the ninja and rogue classes into one class. Ninjas should, in my opinion, be a sub-group of rogues that have learned shadow-related magic. Nonmagical ninja are just rogues in an Asian setting. I felt like the ninja class was Paizo's own rogue revision to give them more magic. I don't like rogues relying on magic; I'd rather boost up the rogue talents, which is what I did here, as I think they're the most important element of the class, along with skills. There is a pretty sizable talent tree based on the shadow magic talent to represent "magical ninja", though - they can be pretty neat, and I didn't want to leave anybody out in the cold, least of all ninjas who can walk through walls and kill me in my sleep.
- Boost rogue talents. Lots of the RAW rogue talents are weak, usable once per day only for an effect that's less powerful than an equivalent spell available to a caster class. I'm not a fan of that. I added a pool of points using the grit mechanics from the gunslinger that rogues can use to activate powers that were previously once-per-day, and standardized that across the class's mechanics. It's similar in function to the ninja's ki pool, but I like the mechanics of grit where you get rewarded for doing what your class should do more than an arbitrary per-day point pool. I'm up in the air on what recharges it - as written it's two things. 1. Drop an enemy with sneak attack, and 2. Roll a natural 20 on a skill check. I figured that encourages rogues to do what they should be doing pretty well. Originally I had some mechanics about winning an opposed skill roll by a certain amount, but those numbers didn't work out well and were clunky. "natural 20 on a skill check" is easy to remember and close to the gunslinger's grit mechanics.
- Make rogue talents more consistent. Splatbooks had added a number of rogue talents that were all doing the same thing but were each a different talent. I tried to fold those together where I could. There were several different "walk up to someone, draw a weapon, get sneak attack" talents that were rolled together into one, for example. I added the Skill Adept talent to use the D&D Next advantage mechanics that several UM and UC talents used - you spend 1 cunning and roll two dice for a skill check with a chosen skill, and take the better one. It's a nice, simple way to make rogues really good at skills, which is something they should be good at.
- Added a number of new rogue talents. A few of them are poison-related alchemist discoveries; most are just new. They focus on skills, action economy, helping rogues hit, the surprise round, and combat maneuvers, mostly.
- Rogues should, in my opinion, mostly care about either Dex+Int or Dex+Charisma. That's why I set up the cunning pool for Int-based rogues and the panache pool for Charisma-based rogues. All the examples I could think of of for rogues combined one of those two, so I think it works out pretty well. Arguably it makes them a little bit more MAD than they were, but I think most rogues had decent-to-good scores in one of those two stats. Dex is actually only important because they're still a lightly armored class - you could pick up heavier armor and would be able to do Str/Int or Str/Cha with this class as written too, if you don't care about Dex-based skills.
Cunning & Panache: SteelDraco's Revised Rogue
Alignment: Any
Hit Die: d8
Starting Wealth: 4d6 × 10 gp (average 140 gp.) In addition, each character begins play with an outfit worth 10 gp or less.
Class Skills
The rogue's class skills are Acrobatics (Dex), Appraise (Int), Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Disable Device (Dex), Disguise (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (dungeoneering) (Int), Knowledge (local) (Int), Linguistics (Int), Perception (Wis), Perform (Cha), Profession (Wis), Sense Motive (Wis), Sleight of Hand (Dex), Stealth (Dex), Swim (Str), and Use Magic Device (Cha).
Skill Ranks per Level: 8 + Int modifier.
Base Attack Bonus: Medium
Fortitude Save: Poor
Reflex Save: Good
Will Save: Poor
1st: Cunning pool, rogue talent, sneak attack +1d6, trapfinding
2nd: Evasion, rogue talent
3rd: Sneak attack +2d6, trap sense +1
4th: Rogue talent, uncanny dodge
5th: Sneak attack +3d6
6th: Rogue talent, trap sense +2
7th: Sneak attack +4d6
8th: Improved uncanny dodge, rogue talent
9th: Sneak attack +5d6, trap sense +3
10th: Advanced talents, rogue talent
11th: Sneak attack +6d6
12th: Rogue talent
13th: Sneak attack +7d6
14th: Rogue talent
15th: Sneak attack +8d6, trap sense +5
16th: Rogue talent
17th: Sneak attack +9d6
18th: Rogue talent
19th: Sneak attack +10d6
20th: Master strike, rogue talent
Cunning
Rogues live on their skill, improvisation, and fortune. A rogue who can't outthink his opponents is not likely to survive to see another day - he lives or dies by his cunning. In game terms, cunning is a fluctuating measure of a rogue's ability to manage amazing feats. At the start of each day, a rogue gains a number of cunning points equal to his Intelligence modifier (minimum 1). His cunning goes up or down during the day, but usually cannot go higher than his Intelligence modifier (minimum 1), though some things may affect this maximum. The rogue spends cunning to use his rogue talents, and regains cunning in the following ways.
- The rogue gains a point of cunning when he rolls a natural 20 on a skill check.
- The rogue gains a point of cunning when he reduces a worthy opponent to 0 or fewer hit points with an attack that deals sneak attack damage.
To count as a "worthy opponent," a creature must have a number of hit dice equal to or greater than half the rogue's character level.
While he has at least 1 point in his cunning pool, a rogue adds half his level to all initiative rolls (minimum +1).
Panache (Rogue Archetype)
Some rogues are dashing and charming, relying on their charisma to carry them successfully through life when others rely on their wits. This ability replaces the cunning pool ability and modifies a number of rogue talents. Panache functions just the same as a cunning pool, save that it is based on Charisma instead of Intelligence. All references to a cunning pool refer instead to the rogue's panache pool. Save DCs and benefits for all rogue talents that rely on Intelligence instead rely on Charisma for a panache rogue.
Modifications to the Core Class:
Combine the rogue's list of talents and advanced talents with the ninja's list of tricks and master tricks. The full list of available rogue talents is as follows.
Befuddling Strike
Black Market Connections
Bleeding Attack
Choking Bomb*
Coax Information
Combat Trick
Cunning Trigger
Deflect Arrows*
Distracting Attack
Fast Getaway
Fast Picks
Fast Stealth
Finesse Rogue
Firearm Training
Flurry of Stars*
Follow Clues
Getaway Artist
Guileful Polyglot
Hidden Weapons
Iron Guts
Major Magic
Minor Magic
Offensive Defense
Poison Bomb*
Pressure Points*
Quick Disable
Quick Disguise
Rogue Crawl
Rope Master
Slow Metabolism*
Slow Reactions
Snap Shot
Snatch Arrows*
Strong Impression
Style Master*
Surprise Attack
Swift Poison
Terrain Mastery
Trap Spotter
Weapon Training
Confounding Blades
Crippling Strike
Deadly Cocktail
Dispelling Attack
Entanglement of Blades
Feat
Getaway Master
Improved Evasion
Opportunist
Skill Mastery
Canny Observer
Charmer
Combat Swipe
Convincing Lie
Deft Palm
False Friend
Fast Fingers
Feather Fall
Forgotten Trick*
Hold Breath
Honeyed Words
Ki Pool
Lasting Poison
Ledge Walker
Obfuscate Story
Peerless Maneuver
Powerful Sneak
Quick Trapsmith
Strong Stroke
Survivalist
Wall Climber
Advanced Talent
Deadly Shuriken*
Deadly Sneak
Hard to Fool
Master Disguise*
Rumormonger
Thoughtful Reexamining
Acrobatic Master* (Ex): If a rogue fails to beat an opponent's CMD when making an Acrobatics check to avoid an attack of opportunity, the rogue may use his Acrobatics check result in place of his Armor Class against that attack, if it is better. This ability may be used once per round without paying any cunning; each use after the first costs 1 point from the rogue's cunning pool.
Assault Leader (Ex): As an immediate action when the rogue misses with an attack on a flanked opponent, she can designate a single ally who is also flanking the target that her attack missed. That ally can make a single melee attack against the opponent as an immediate action. Using this ability costs 1 point of cunning. The rogue must be at least 6th level to select this ability.
Camouflage (Ex): A rogue with this talent can craft simple but effective camouflage from the surrounding foliage. The rogue needs 1 minute to prepare the camouflage, but once she does, it is good for the rest of the day or until the wearer fails a saving throw against an area effect spell that deals fire, cold, or acid damage, whichever comes first. The wearer gains a +4 bonus on Stealth checks while within terrain that matches the foliage used to make the camouflage. This ability cannot be used in areas without natural foliage. When the rogue uses this ability, he may prepare camouflage for himself plus one additional ally per three levels. Activating this ability costs one point of cunning.
Cat Burglar (Ex): A rogue with this talent retains her Dexterity bonus to AC while climbing and using the Acrobatics skill to balance on a narrow surface. She also moves at his full speed while using the Acrobatics skill in this manner without penalty.
Darkvision* (Su): A rogue with this talent has learned to use his connection to shadows to see in complete darkness. Activating this ability is a standard action that costs 1 point of cunning. For one hour, the rogue gains darkvision to a range of 60'. A rogue must have the shadow magic talent to select this ability.
Esoteric Scholar (Ex): A rogue with this talent has picked up a bit of knowledge on a variety of subjects. He many roll Knowledge checks untrained. If he spends 1 point of cunning, he may add half his rogue level to an untrained Knowledge check.
Expert Leaper (Ex): When making jump checks, the rogue is always considered to have a running start as long as he has at least 1 point of cunning. When falling, the rogue may always make an Acrobatics check to reduce the damage, as if falling deliberately. A DC 15 Acrobatics check reduces the falling damage by 1d6, and by an additional 1d6 for every three points over 15.
Fast Tumble (Ex): As the advanced talent, except it's not an advanced talent.
Frugal Trapsmith (Ex): As the advanced talent, except it's not an advanced talent.
Grit (Ex): A rogue with this talent may choose one 1st level deed from the list of gunslinger deeds and one grit feat that he qualifies for. He may spend cunning to activate these abilities as though he were spending grit. A rogue must have Exotic Weapon Proficiency (firearms) to select this talent.
High Jumper (Ex): When a rogue with this talent makes a high jump, the DC for that jump is half the normal DC. The rogue must have the expert leaper talent before selecting this one.
Improvised Trick* (Ex): A rogue with this ability excels at improvisation. As a standard action, she may spend 2 cunning and select any rogue talent that she qualifies for (though not an advanced talent). She gains that talent for a number of rounds equal to her level. If the chosen ability costs cunning, she must pay all normal costs associated with it.
Ki Block* (Su): A rogue with this talent has learned to combine her studies of ki with her knowledge of vital strikes to prevent a target from using its own ki pool. When she damages a target with a sneak attack, they must make a Will save (DC 10 + 1/2 her rogue level + her Intelligence modifier). If they fail, they cannot spend ki points for a number of rounds equal to the rogue's Intelligence modifier. Their ki pool total does not change, and they can use abilities that do not require the subject to spend ki still function. A rogue must have the ki breakthrough talent to select this talent.
Positioning Attack (Ex): When a rogue with this talent hits a creature with a melee attack, she can move up to 30 feet without provoking attacks of opportunity. The movement must end in a space adjacent to the creature hit with the melee attack. Activating this ability is an immediate action that costs 1 point of cunning.
Resiliency (Ex): As an immediate action, a rogue with this ability can gain a number of temporary hit points equal to his level. This ability can only be activated when she is brought below 0 hit points. This ability can be used to prevent her from dying. These temporary hit points last for 1 minute, and this ability cannot be used again during that time. If the rogue's hit points drop below 0 due to the loss of these temporary hit points, she falls unconscious and is dying as normal. Activating this ability costs 1 cunning.
See the Unseen* (Su): A rogue with this talent learns how to see invisible creatures through his connection to shadows. As a swift action, the rogue can cast see invisibility, using his level as the caster level. Each use of this ability costs 1 cunning. A rogue must have the shadow magic talent to select this ability.
Shadow Clone* (Su): The rogue has learned to create shadowy duplicates of himself to confuse attackers. This functions as a mirror image spell with a caster level equal to the rogue's level. Using this ability is a standard action that costs 1 point of cunning. The rogue must have the shadow magic talent to learn this ability.
Smoke Bomb* (Ex): This ability allows a rogue to throw a smoke bomb that creates a cloud of smoke with a 15-foot radius. This acts like the smoke from a smokestick. The rogue can center this smoke on herself, or throw the bomb as a ranged touch attack with a range of 20 feet. Using this ability is a standard action. Each use of this ability costs 1 point of cunning.
Sniper's Eye (Ex): A rogue with this talent increases the range at which he can apply sneak attack damage with a ranged attack by 30', and may apply his sneak attack damage on ranged attacks to targets within this distance that currently have concealment. Foes with total concealment are still immune.
Special: If this rogue has other talents that can only be used within 30', the range for those abilities is also increased by 30'.
Stand Up (Ex): A rogue with this ability can stand up from a prone position as a free action. She may make an Acrobatics check to avoid the attack of opportunity this provokes with a bonus to the roll equal to 1/2 her rogue level. The DC of this check is equal to her opponent's CMD.
Stealthy Sniper (Ex): As the advanced talent, except it isn't an advanced talent.
Underhanded (Ex): A rogue with this talent gains a +4 circumstance bonus on all Sleight of Hand checks made to conceal a weapon. Furthermore, if she makes a sneak attack during the surprise round using a concealed weapon that her opponent didn't know about, she may spend 1 cunning. If she does so, all sneak attack damage she deals against that target during the surprise round is increased by 50% (count up the sneak attack dice and multiply by 1.5).
Unwitting Ally (Ex): A rogue with this talent can spend a swift action and 1 cunning to attempt to make an opponent act like an ally for purposes of providing a flank until the beginning of the rogue’s next turn. The opponent must be able to hear and see the rogue, and the rogue must succeed at a Bluff check opposed by the opponent’s Sense Motive. If the check succeeds, the opponent acts as an ally for the purpose of providing a flank. Whether or not the check succeeds, the rogue cannot use this trick again on the same opponent for the next 24 hours. If the rogue fails the check by 5 or more, she cannot use the unwitting ally ability on any opponent within line of sight of the failed attempt for 24 hours.
Wall Scramble* (Ex): A rogue with this talent has learned to climb with astonishing speed and grace when necessary. As a swift action, he may spend 1 cunning to gain a climb speed equal to two-thirds of his base speed (rounded to the nearest 5' increment - 20' for a creature with a 30' speed and 15' for a creature with a 20' speed). This lasts for one minute per level. To select this talent, a rogue must have skill focus (climb) or skill adept (climb).
Weapon Snatcher (Ex): As the advanced talent, except it isn't an advanced talent.
Another Day (Ex): When the rogue would be reduced to 0 or fewer hit points by a melee attack, she can take a 5-foot step as an immediate action that costs 2 points of cunning. If this movement takes her out of the reach of the attack, she takes no damage from the attack. The rogue is staggered for 1 round on her next turn.
Assassinate* (Ex): A rogue with this advanced talent can kill foes that are unable to defend themselves. To attempt to assassinate a target, the rogue must first study her target for 1 round as a standard action and spend 2 cunning. On the following round, if the rogue makes a sneak attack against the target and the target is denied its Dexterity bonus to AC, the sneak attack has the additional effect of possibly killing the target. This attempt automatically fails if the target recognizes the rogue as an enemy. If the sneak attack is successful and the target of the attack fails a Fortitude save, it dies. The DC of this save is equal to 10 + 1/2 the rogue's level + the rogue's Intelligence modifier. If the save is successful, the target still takes the sneak attack damage as normal, but it is immune to that rogue's assassinate ability for 1 day.
Blinding Bomb* (Ex): Whenever the rogue throws a smoke bomb, all living creatures in the cloud must make a Fortitude save or be blinded by the black smoke for 1d4 rounds. The DC of this save is 10 + 1/2 the rogue's level + the rogue's Intelligence modifier. This talent cannot be combined with a choking bomb, but the rogue can combine a choking bomb with a poison bomb. The rogue must have the choking bomb talent before selecting this ability.
Defensive Roll (Ex): With this advanced talent, the rogue can roll with a potentially lethal blow to take less damage from it than she otherwise would. When she would be reduced to 0 or fewer hit points by damage in combat (from a weapon or other blow, not a spell or special ability), the rogue can attempt to roll with the damage. To use this ability, the rogue must attempt a Reflex saving throw (DC = damage dealt). If the save succeeds, she takes only half damage from the blow; if it fails, she takes full damage. She must be aware of the attack and able to react to it in order to execute her defensive roll—if she is denied her Dexterity bonus to AC, she can't use this ability. Since this effect would not normally allow a character to make a Reflex save for half damage, the rogue's evasion ability does not apply to the defensive roll. Activating this ability reduces the rogue's cunning pool to 0; she must have at least 2 cunning available to use this ability.
Ghost Step* (Su): As a swift action, a rogue with this talent can pass through walls as if he were a ghost. Until the end of his turn, he can pass through walls or other surfaces that are up to 5 feet thick per level as if he were incorporeal. He must exit solid material by the end of his turn, or be thrust out violently into the nearest open space, suffering 1d6 points of damage per 5 feet that he travels this way. Activating this ability costs 2 cunning. A rogue must have the shadow magic talent to select this ability.
Hide in Plain Sight (Ex): This functions as the assassin ability of the same name. The rogue must have one of this following talents to select this ability: favored terrain, shadow magic, skill adept (stealth), or skill focus (stealth). If the rogue has the favored terrain talent but none of the other talents listed, this ability functions only in his favored terrain. This is an advanced talent.
Hunter's Surprise (Ex): As a swift action that costs 2 points of cunning, a rogue with this talent can designate a single enemy within 30' as her prey. Until the end of her next turn, she can add her sneak attack damage to all attacks made against her prey, even if she is not flanking it or it is not denied its Dexterity bonus against her. While this power is in effect, she does not regain cunning by dropping the target with an attack that causes sneak attack damage.
Special: If the rogue has the Sniper's Eye or Improved Sniper's Eye talents, the range of this ability is increased to 60' or 90', respectively.
Invisible Blade* (Su): This rogue is a student of the deepest mysteries of shadow magic. Whenever she uses the shadow magic talent, she is treated as if she were under the effects of greater invisibility. The rogue must have the shadow magic talent before selecting this advanced talent.
Knock-Out Blow (Ex): As part of an attack, the rogue may spend 2 cunning and forgo his sneak attack damage to attempt to knock out an opponent. He must declare the use of knock-out blow before he makes the attack. If the attack hits, it does normal damage, but instead of dealing sneak attack damage (and instead of any effect that triggers when the rogue deals sneak attack damage), the target falls unconscious for 1d4 rounds. A successful Fortitude save reduces this effect to staggered for 1 round. The DC of this save is equal to 10 + 1/2 the rogue's level + the rogue's Intelligence modifier.
Master of Disguise (Su): A rogue with this talent can take on the appearance of other creatures and individuals. Whenever the rogue uses the many faces talent, the duration increases to 10 minutes per level. Alternatively, the rogue can use the many faces talent to take on the appearance of a specific individual that the rogue has seen before for 1 minute per level. Creatures that are familiar with the individual receive a Will saving throw (DC 10 + 1/2 the rogue's level + the rogue's Intelligence modifier) to see through the illusion. This illusion also changes the rogue's speech, if she has heard the individual talk and can speak his language. The rogue must have the many faces talent before selecting this talent.
Redirect Attack (Ex): When a rogue with this talent is hit with a melee attack, she can spend 2 cunning as an immediate action to redirect the attack to strike at an adjacent creature. The creature targeted must be within melee reach of the attack that hit the rogue, and the creature that made the attack against the rogue must make a new attack roll against the new target.
Shadow Split* (Su): This talent allows the rogue to create an illusory double of herself that moves away from her, allowing the rogue to create a distraction. When she uses this ability, an illusory double appears and moves away from the rogue, heading in one direction. The double climbs walls, jumps pits, or simply passes through obstacles, moving at twice the rogue’s speed in the direction indicated by the rogue when the ability is used. Its course cannot be changed. The double persists for 1 round per level of the rogue. Those who interact with the double receive a Will saving throw to recognize that it is fake. The DC of this save is 10 + 1/2 the rogue’s level + the rogue’s Intelligence modifier. Each use of this ability costs 1 cunning. The rogue must possess the shadow clone rogue talent before selecting this talent.
Slippery Mind (Ex): A rogue with this talent is adept at escaping mind-affecting effects. At the start of her turn, if she is still subject to any mind-affecting spells or effects, she can make a Will saving throw with a standard DC for the effect’s level, and if she succeeds at the check, she is no longer subject to the mind-affecting effect. She can make this saving throw even against mind-affecting effects that normally don’t allow a saving throw. In those cases, generate the saving throw as if the spell or effect did allow a saving throw.
Unarmed Combat Mastery* (Ex): A rogue with this talent deals damage with his unarmed strikes as if she were a monk of her rogue level - 4. If the rogue has levels in monk, this ability stacks with monk levels to determine how much damage he deals with his unarmed strikes. A rogue must have the Improved Unarmed Strike feat before selecting this talent.
Unbound Steps* (Su): This rogue has taken his ability to walk across surfaces to a supernatural level. When this rogue uses the light steps talent, he can walk on air, rising or descending as he desires. He must end his move on a solid surface. Each use of this ability costs 1 cunning. A rogue must have the light steps talent to select this ability.
Acrobatic Maneuver (Ex): A rogue with this talent selects one of the following combat maneuvers: bull rush, dirty trick, disarm, drag, feint, overrun, reposition, steal, or trip. The rogue may roll an Acrobatics check in place of a combat maneuver check when attempting to use that particular combat maneuver. Bonuses to that combat maneuver (such as the bonus from maneuver-related feats) apply to this check. Otherwise, this is resolves as a normal combat maneuver. A rogue must have skill focus or skill adept in Acrobatics to select this talent. A rogue may take this talent more than once, selecting a new combat maneuver each time.
Acquired Immunity (Ex): A rogue with this talent has acquired immunity to a small group of poisons. When he selects this talent, he chooses a number of different specific poisons equal to his Constitution modifier that he has been exposed to at least once. He is immune to these poisons. Once these poisons have been selected, they may not be changed. The rogue must have the poison resistance talent or the great fortitude feat to select this talent.
Bully (Ex): A rogue with this talent is adept at fighting foes too frightened to defend themselves properly. He may roll sneak attack damage against any enemy suffering from a fear condition (shaken, frightened, or panicked).
Confounding Movement (Ex): If a rogue starts his turn adjacent to an enemy and moves to a position where he would have a flank with his starting position, he is considered to be flanking that opponent until the end of his turn.
Cunning Defense (Ex): As an immediate action, a rogue with this talent may gain a circumstance bonus to his AC and CMD equal to his Intelligence modifier until the beginning of his next turn. Activating this ability costs 1 point from his cunning pool.
Cunning Maneuver (Ex): As a swift action that costs 1 point of cunning, this rogue may gain a circumstance bonus to his CMB and on Bluff checks made to feint equal to his Intelligence modifier until the end of his turn.
Cunning Resistance (Ex): As an immediate action, this rogue gains a circumstance bonus to saving throws equal to her Intelligence modifier until the beginning of her next turn. Activating this ability costs 1 point from her cunning pool.
Deadly Strike (Ex): A rogue with this talent has learned to make his strikes count and his luck work for him. As an immediate action after rolling damage for an attack that dealt sneak attack damage, he may spend 1 cunning to reroll all the damage dice for that attack. He must take this second roll, even if it is lower than the first.
Defensive Focus (Ex): When fighting defensively, a rogue with this talent gains an additional +1 dodge bonus to AC. When using the total defense action, he gains an additional +2 dodge bonus to AC. When using the Combat Expertise feat, he increases the dodge bonus granted by that feat by 50%, to a minimum of a +1 increase.
Extraordinary Cunning (Ex): Rogues with this talent increase their maximum and daily starting cunning by 1.
Extraordinary Reflexes (Ex): Once per round as an immediate action, a rogue with this talent may spend 1 cunning to make a number of extra attacks of opportunity in this round equal to his Intelligence bonus.
Find Weakness (Ex): A rogue with this talent has learned to study his opponents, allowing him to strike where they are weakest. Activating this ability is a standard action that costs 1 cunning. The rogue chooses a creature within 30' he can see and that does not have concealment or total concealment against him, and chooses one of the following bonus types: armor, circumstance, cover, deflection, dodge, insight, natural armor, profane, sacred, shield, or size. The rogue makes a Perception or Sense Motive check against the target' creature's CMD. If successful, his attacks and combat maneuvers ignore any AC bonus of the selected type that the target has for 1d4+1 rounds. In order to select this talent, the rogue must have skill focus or skill adept in either Perception or Sense Motive.
Fleet Escape (Ex): For some rogues, running away from pursuers is a smarter option than staying to fight. This character is practiced at escaping from foes, and knows the best way to avoid just about any obstacle while moving quickly. The rogue gains a +4 bonus on all rolls to navigate obstacles during a chase.
Flurry of Steel (Ex): When making a full attack, a rogue with this talent may spend 1 point of cunning to gain an extra attack with one of his weapons at his highest attack bonus. All attacks the rogue makes this turn suffer a -2 penalty. This ability does not stack with itself, or other effects that grant an extra attack, such as haste.
Greater Maneuver (Ex): A rogue with this talent gains one of the following feats, chosen when this talent is taken: Greater Dirty Trick, Greater Disarm, Greater Feint, Greater Reposition, Greater Steal, or Greater Trip. In order to select one of these feats, the rogue must have the equivalent improved maneuver feat (Improved Disarm to select Greater Disarm, for example). A rogue must be at least 6th level to select this talent.
Improved Maneuver (Ex): A rogue with this talent gains one of the following feats, chosen when this talent is taken: Improved Dirty Trick, Improved Disarm, Improved Feint, Improved Reposition, Improved Steal, or Improved Trip. He does not have to fulfill the prerequisites to select this feat.
Improved Sniper's Eye (Ex): A rogue with this talent may make sneak attacks at a range of up to 90'. A rogue must have the Sniper's Eye talent to select this ability.
Ki Breakthrough (Ex): You have learned to meld your understanding of ki with your rogue cunning. Your rogue levels stack with levels in the class that grants the ki pool ability to determine your maximum ki pool. You may use your Intelligence modifier instead of the ability score used by the other class to determine the number of ki points in your ki pool if you choose, though that choice must be made when this talent is gained. You must have the ki pool ability from another class to select this talent.
Light Steps (Ex): A rogue with this talent has learned to move while barely touching the surface she is crossing. As a full-round action, she can move up to twice her speed, ignoring difficult terrain. While moving in this way, any surface will support her, no matter how much she weighs. This allows her to cross water, lava, or even the thinnest tree branches. Movement made this way leaves no tracks. She must end her move on a surface that can support her normally. She cannot move across air in this way, nor can she walk up walls or other vertical surfaces. When moving in this way, she does not take damage from surfaces or hazards that react to being touched, such as lava or caltrops, nor does she need to make Acrobatics checks to avoid falling on slippery or rough surfaces. Finally, when using light steps, the rogue ignores any mechanical traps that use a location-based trigger. The rogue must have at least 1 cunning in his pool to use this ability.
Low-Light Vision (Ex): A rogue with this talent has improved his ability to see in the dark. He gains low-light vision, as the racial ability of the same name.
Many Faces (Su): A rogue with this talent has learned to magically alter his features. As a standard action that costs 1 cunning, he may cast disguise self with a duration of one minute per level. He must have the minor magic or shadow magic talent to select this ability.
No Trace (Ex): This rogue has learned to minimize the tracks he leaves behind. The DC of all Survival checks made to track him increases by his rogue level. If he moves at half speed, the rogue can apply this modifier to the tracks of a group of individuals nearby, up to one additional person per level.
Poison Resistance (Ex): A rogue with this talent gains a +2 bonus on all saves against poison. At 5th level, this bonus increases to +4. At 8th level, it increases to +6.
Poison Use (Ex): A rogue with this talent cannot accidentally poison herself when applying poison to a weapon.
Quick Footwork (Ex): As a swift action, the rogue may spend 1 point of cunning to take a 5-foot step, even if he has already moved or taken a 5-foot step this turn. Using this ability does not prevent the rogue from taking a move action later in the turn. Otherwise, this movement follows all the normal rules for a 5-foot step.
Quick Glance (Ex): A rogue with this talent can notice things with just a glance. It is a swift action for him to examine an area in detail or search for stimulus with the Perception skill, rather than a move action.
Quick Reaction (Ex): A rogue with this talent may spend 1 point cunning at the beginning of his turn on a surprise round to take both a move action and a standard action, rather than just a standard action, as is normally allowed in a surprise round.
Scentbreaker Bomb (Ex): A rogue with this talent has learned to mix in noxious chemicals into his bombs that interfere with the scent ability. Any creature with the scent ability that enters a rogue's smoke cloud must make a Fortitude save or become sickened for one round and lose the benefit of the scent ability for one hour. If it succeeds at the save, the creature loses scent for one minute. A rogue must have the smoke bomb talent to select this ability.
Scrounger (Ex): A rogue with this talent has learned to survive in the toughest environments and with improvised or broken tools. He may add his Intelligence modifier to Survival checks, in addition to his Wisdom modifier. He reduces all penalties he would take from not having appropriate tools on a skill check by half, rounded down. As a swift action that costs 1 cunning, he may treat an item with the broken condition as though it were not broken for one minute per level.
Secretive (Su): This rogue has gained magical assistance in protecting himself from divinations, perhaps through a little-known ritual or a pact with otherworldly beings. He gains spell resistance 10 + his level against any spells or effects of the divination school. This applies whenever a divination effect would provide information about him, even if the spell is not normally subject to spell resistance (such as the divination spell or contact other plane). Additionally, the DC of all Diplomacy checks made to gather information about this rogue increase by his rogue level.
Shadow Magic (Su): A rogue with this talent has started to learn the mysterious rogue art of shadow magic. As a swift action, he may spend 1 cunning to become invisible, as the spell, for up to one round per level.
Silent Takedown (Ex): A rogue with this talent has learned to muffle the sounds of a surprise attack. If he spends 1 cunning when making an attack during a surprise round and reduces the target to 0 hit points or fewer, he may make a Stealth check opposed by the Perception check of nearby enemies that do not have line of sight to him. If he succeeds, the target was eliminated quietly and nearby enemies are not alerted. If he fails the Stealth check or does not eliminate the target in one round, the rogue makes enough noise that nearby enemies are alerted to the sounds of combat as normal.
Skill Adept (Ex): When a rogue chooses this talent, he selects a class skill. Whenever a roll for that skill is made he may spend 1 point of cunning to roll two dice and take the better result. A rogue may select this talent multiple times, selecting a different skill each time. A rogue must be at least 4th level to select this talent.
Skill Focus (Ex): When a rogue selects this talent, he gains the Skill Focus feat in any one class skill. A rogue may select this talent multiple times, choosing a different skill each time.
Skill Training (Ex): When a rogue selects this talent, he selects two skills that are not currently class skills. They become class skills for the rogue. This talent may be taken more than once, selecting two new class skills each time.
Sticky Poison (Ex): When the rogue applies poison to a weapon, he may spend 1 point of cunning as part of the action of applying the poison. The weapon remains poisoned for a number of strikes equal to the rogue's Intelligence modifier. A rogue must be at least 6th level and have the poison use talent to select this ability.
Strike at Weakness (Ex): Any opponent within reach that rolls a natural 1 on an attack roll provokes an attack of opportunity from this rogue.
Team Player (Ex): As a swift action, the rogue may choose an ally within line of sight that possesses at least one teamwork feat. For one minute, the rogue gains the benefits of a single teamwork feat that ally has, chosen when this ability is used. He may only gain one feat at a time when using this ability. Activating this ability costs 1 point of cunning.
Trapfinding (Ex): This functions as the rogue class ability of the same name. Selecting this talent allows rogues with an archetype that trades it out access to this rogue ability.
Trapsmith (Ex): A rogue with this talent is trained at creating improvised traps. Select one extraordinary ranger trap. He may set this trap as a ranger, except the DC for the trap is 10 + 1/2 his rogue level + his Intelligence modifier - 2 (because of the extraordinary trap penalty). Creating this trap is a full-round action that provokes an attack of opportunity, and costs 1 cunning. A rogue must have the trapfinding special ability to select this talent.
Special: A rogue with the major magic talent or any spellcasting ability may select and create supernatural traps. A rogue may take this talent more than once, gaining a new trap known each time.
Two-Weapon Adept (Ex): While he has at least 1 point of cunning, this rogue reduces the penalty for fighting with two weapons or a double weapon by 1, on both his primary and off-hand weapons. A rogue must be at least 6th level and have the Two-Weapon Fighting feat to select this talent.
Vicious Ambush (Ex): This rogue has learned to attack from surprise with astonishing speed, catching his targets unawares. When performing a full attack action from stealth or invisibility against a target that would be denied its Dexterity bonus against the rogue's first attack, the target is denied its Dexterity bonus to AC against all the rogue's attacks for that action. Activating this ability is a swift action that costs 1 point of cunning. A rogue must be at least 6th level to select this talent.
Doublestrike (Ex): As a standard action, a rogue with this advanced talent may spend 1 cunning to make one melee attack with her primary weapon and one melee attack with her off-hand weapon with her full base attack bonus. She suffers the normal penalties for two-weapon fighting when using this ability.
Heart of Lies (Su): Whenever a rogue with this talent succeeds at a saving throw against a divination spell, or someone fails to penetrate his spell resistance from the secretive talent, he is immediately aware of this, and may attempt to provide false information. The caster must make a caster level check with a DC of 1d20 + the rogue's level + his Intelligence modifier. If the check fails, the false information is provided. If the check succeeds, no information is provided. Activating this ability is an immediate action that costs 1 cunning. A rogue must have the secretive talent before selecting this advanced talent.
Surprise Attack (Ex): A rogue with this talent may act normally in a surprise round - he is not limited to a standard action. This is an advanced talent.
Dotting.
MA
I really like this. Really really.
Just a handful of suggestions/questions (in no particular order, sorry):
1) Stand up: Why not just let this talent automatically avoid attacks of opportunities? Fewer rolls and less math are always a plus in my book.
2) Extraordinary reflexes: The fact that this duplicates the Combat Reflexes feat but requires expenditure of cunning AND an immediate action sort of bothers me, especially given how hard it is to regain cunning and how many talents require immediate actions. I'd personally just give them Combat Reflexes (maybe modified to use Int/Cha instead of Dex) and be done with it.
3) Doublestrike: I don't know if it would be overpowered, but it would be awesome if this could be reworded to work with Spring Attack.
4) Positioning attack: As worded, this would allow dwarves and similarly slow races to move farther than their normal speed would allow. Is that intentional?
Very well done!
What's to stop me attempting to imitate the king's voice multiple times a round as a free action in order to roll lots of 20s, or just jumping up and down on the spot? Attacking enemies works well as a mechanic because whenever there are enemies, you want to defeat them and there are consequences for failure. Skill checks are basically boring most of the time, and a mechanic that rewards you for making lots of them is a poor mechanic in my book.
That aside, this looks interesting.
I really like all the work you have put into this, a lot of time and thought.
The only criticism I have is that I believe the second part of Expert Leaper to be too powerful. A rogue could very easily pump acrobatics to the point where jumping off of a hundred foot building means nothing... it takes the monk many many levels to do the same, and only when touching a structure on the way down. Maybe make the falling damage reduction cost a point of cunning to activate as free action? That would balance it out I think.
Thanks!
As to Expert Leaper, I was comparing to Feather Fall, not slow fall, which I feel is a pretty worthless class ability. A 1st level wizard can de-orbit if he feels like it and not take damage. A mid-to-high level rogue should be able to jump off a tall building and land in a roll, not taking much damage. I think that's in keeping with an acrobatic rogue archetype like, say, Catwoman or Dick Grayson Robin. (The Bat-Family inspired a number of my mechanics for this class.) A cunning cost doesn't bother me, but I don't think it's necessary.
I really like this. Really really.
Just a handful of suggestions/questions (in no particular order, sorry):
1) Stand up: Why not just let this talent automatically avoid attacks of opportunities? Fewer rolls and less math are always a plus in my book.
2) Extraordinary reflexes: The fact that this duplicates the Combat Reflexes feat but requires expenditure of cunning AND an immediate action sort of bothers me, especially given how hard it is to regain cunning and how many talents require immediate actions. I'd personally just give them Combat Reflexes (maybe modified to use Int/Cha instead of Dex) and be done with it.
3) Doublestrike: I don't know if it would be overpowered, but it would be awesome if this could be reworded to work with Spring Attack.
4) Positioning attack: As worded, this would allow dwarves and similarly slow races to move farther than their normal speed would allow. Is that intentional?
Very well done!
Glad you like it! It's been percolating for a long time.
1. I like rewarding skill use, I suppose? As written there's no way to avoid an AoO while standing, so it seemed a bit too much to avoid the AoO for free.
2. I wrote it with the expectation that they already had Combat Reflexes, but you're right, it would be better your way.
3. Hm. I did neglect Spring Attack, didn't I? I'll fix that tonight. I think it'd be fine - you need an advanced talent to get this ability, it should be powerful and rogues should be mobile and nasty.
4. That's what I get for just rewriting a published talent - the source is worded the same way. Yes, it should be 'your speed'.
4.
What's to stop me attempting to imitate the king's voice multiple times a round as a free action in order to roll lots of 20s, or just jumping up and down on the spot? Attacking enemies works well as a mechanic because whenever there are enemies, you want to defeat them and there are consequences for failure. Skill checks are basically boring most of the time, and a mechanic that rewards you for making lots of them is a poor mechanic in my book.
That aside, this looks interesting.
GM fiat, I suppose. I could include language about only important or dramatically significant skill checks, but I assumed it. For me that would fall under rule 0b for my players, "Don't be THAT GUY." I'll think about how to note that politely, though.
I stand behind skill checks, though. Rogues are a skill-centric class.
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I applaud your efforts to put some more oomph in the rogue. And I like the Cunning/Panache thing. I was thinking along those same lines but with "Esprit" (inspired by the movie Ridicule).
I haven't yet read through all the talents. That's the problem with all these rogue threads; reading through a long list of talents, ugh...
I'm not sure about your recharge mechanic. Drop a person with SA (should it be Precision?) damage, sure. What about if the guy drops from Bleed inflicted with a talent?
Natural 20 on a check, I dunno. It gets silly with skill checks taken as free actions, but otherwise it's rather unreliable. How about instead making a short list of skills that can trigger it (Stealth, Sleight of Hand..), whenever you win a check (opposed check?) by 10? That also rewards being good at skills, not just skill at dice rolling.
I think the 'win opposed check by 10' as the recovery target for the Panache Rogue (as Ascalaphus suggests) is an elegant solution.
This is probably the best thought out full class revision I've seen in a while. I quite like it, and as a huge credit to you, you even made it mostly malleable for what stats a rogue uses, saving me that rant.
There are many cool ideas in here, and I agree with a lot of these, but that isn't to say some (hopefully) constructive criticism isn't in order. Praise is nice, but criticism is useful, so don't take anything personal. (I need to set up a script to just auto-insert that on the first post I make in a Homebrew thread, hmm)
General Issues:
Cunning Pool and the ways to get it back:
I'm a huge fan of grit. I think it's a really cool idea, especially the cyclical nature of it. I don't care for cries of MAD-ness unless the class requires 5 stats, as 4 is about the average. But there are some serious issues with its use here.
For one, the ways to get it back. 5% chance on a skill check. Hard to rely on in combat, and effectively means they are refilled after every combat. You'll note that the way gunslingers get it are all combat oriented, even though not all deeds are combat oriented. Well, ok they all are except one. This ensures that the gunslinger can't just refill their grit after every combat. Here's where the problem is apparent: the gunslinger is all about combat. The rogue, not so much. So certainly, there's a good reason to allow a way to regain cunning outside of combat. But there really should not be a way to just fill it after combat, especially since combat applications are generally pretty good.
As well, it's quite easy to stack skills against what enemies will reasonably be able to beat. I wouldn't recommend many solutions to regaining cunning that involved opposed rolls.
Another serious issue is that you're keeping costs the same as they were for ninjas. This causes some issues since the "worth" of a point is vastly different between a Ki Pool and Grit. With Ki Pool, you'll be getting quite a lot eventually. This is not the case with Cunning. This is akin to using Zimbabwean dollars to have the same worth as US dollars. Sure, they're both "dollars", but the worth of each one is much different.
Class Structure:
Dippability:
Rogue talents probably shouldn't be available at first level. They are passable without them at first level, and the whole point of putting them at 2nd level is to ensure that you'd have to halfway commit to the class rather than just making a single dip level, and then taking Extra Rogue Talent over and over again to get the same goodies the rogue does, minus higher sneak attack. The classes that get their Menu Choice Options at first level all have not much else going for them :)
Note that this is especially good with some rogue talents, since there's no longer a pool that's based on your level. A magus 9 / rogue 1 will get quite a bit of cunning that they can use on all the rogue talents they picked up with Extra Rogue Talent. The ability to go invisible as a swift action before using spell combat would be very useful, for example.
In essence, you've made rogue a very useful dip due to the wide-reaching nature of the rogue talents, as well as the fluid nature of cunning.
Making both of these, cunning and rogue talents, available at 2nd level fixes most of these issues, as there's a mountain of difference between a 1 and 2 level dip.
Changed Talents:
Acrobatics Master: I feel this may as well be an auto-success when it comes to getting past without AoOs. Would mobility affect it? In general, using skills in place of non-skill rolls should be very limited, since it's so easy to boost skills as opposed to other rolls. Careful.
Positioning Attack: 30 is a bit excessive. I understand why you're doing it, size categories larger than Medium, but still.
Sniper's Eye: +30' is huge, and the reason for the 30' range is a solid one. I would shorten the range by quite a bit.
Weapon Snatcher: See above about skill checks replacing other things. There's a reason why it's an advanced talent :)
Changed Advanced Talents:
Master of Disguise: I'm very iffy on this one, especially the ability to disguise as specific person.
Slippery Mind: The original was fine. With this one you may as well just give them immunity to harmful mind-affecting effects, as that's what the ability does. Even no saves ones? Yea, no.
New Talents:
Acrobatic Maneuver: Yay for autosuccess! Don't do this. They shouldn't be nearly autosuccesses.
Bully: Strongly recommend not doing this as written and will recommend at most dealing half sneak attack under these conditions. There are so many ways to get free Intimidate checks that it really shouldn't happen with full SA.
Confounding Movement: Un-wanted Side Effects senses tingling. I'd nix it just to be safe.
Improved Sniper's Eye: Nope :)
Ki Breakthrough: I don't know what this has to do with rogues. Ninjas maybe, but it doesn't require shadow magic.
Quick Footwork: Ah yea, here's what my Un-Wanted Side Effects senses were detecting. Full-attack sneak attack for 1 cunning point. Due tothe strength of full attack sneak attack, this has a decent chance of killing the enemy. Gaining the cunning point spent back. This really shouldn't be so easy, especially since you already placed something similar as an advanced talent that uses up 2 cunning points (hunter's surprise?)
Scentbreaker: Clever.
Silent Takedown: Nice.
Team Player: I don't get why the rogue has it, but it's probably fine. Kinda nudges on the inquisitor, but it does cost resources.
Trapsmith: Again with the "different values of points" thing. I really don't recommend just assuming every point is worth the same.
Vicious Ambush: Ranged rogues are meant to have difficulty landing sneak attack due to the high extra damage it grants. This negates that aspect without lowering the damage, and as such I strongly recommend making it melee only or at most making it the first two attacks if it works with ranged.
New Advanced Talents:
Doublestrike: Works with Quick Footwork, but not as well as confounding movement. Still, it's nice.
In what ways would you have changed this if your perspective was as a class for use by NPCs against the party?
GM fiat, I suppose. I could include language about only important or dramatically significant skill checks, but I assumed it. For me that would fall under rule 0b for my players, "Don't be THAT GUY." I'll think about how to note that politely, though.
I stand behind skill checks, though. Rogues are a skill-centric class.
I'm of the firm belief that a design that encourages boring play is a bad design. It's not just a matter of a player making pointless skill checks every round, it's also a matter of the player literally being paid to bog the game down with rolls.
Worthwhile skill checks are most often reactive, so encouraging skill checks is pretty much encouraging unneeded skill checks.You'll be seeing heal checks that are still helpful, but not too useful, lots more requests for perception checks, hobbies that just happen to involve crafting, pointless day jobs, hopeless attempts to to convert captured foes to the side of right etc.
What I can see somebody wanting to encourages is swinging on a rope, jumping a pit, identifying wands and the like. Problem is, those all happen because the GM prompts them, by introducing the ropes, pits etc.
I'm not sure about your recharge mechanic. Drop a person with SA (should it be Precision?) damage, sure. What about if the guy drops from Bleed inflicted with a talent?Natural 20 on a check, I dunno. It gets silly with skill checks taken as free actions, but otherwise it's rather unreliable. How about instead making a short list of skills that can trigger it (Stealth, Sleight of Hand..), whenever you win a check (opposed check?) by 10? That also rewards being good at skills, not just skill at dice rolling.
Like I said, I waffled a bit on the skill-based recharge mechanic for cunning. I would like it to be something that can be accomplished outside of combat, because not all uses of cunning are combat-related, and it's perfectly viable for a rogue to try and avoid combat (as much as possible in a tabletop RPG, anyway).
As Cheapy notes in a later post (and I'll get to hist post next, it's a doozy) it's relatively easy for a rogue, or any skill-focused character, to win an opposed skill roll by whatever arbitrary amount you want. Getting a good skill roll is much easier than getting a good, say, attack roll or save. Furthermore, since a lot of opposed rolls are active rolls that the rogue can initiate, he can pick his targets so that he'll always be rolling something he's good at against something they're bad at, making it too easy for him to win an opposed roll by a good amount.
I briefly considering going with "win an opposed roll by X" and increasing X as the rogue gained levels, but that was clunky as all get out to actually write up and work with, and didn't really solve the problem that it's pretty easy for a rogue to game winning an opposed roll. It's much harder to game rolling a natural 20 on a skill roll, especially if as the GM you just shoot them down if they start trying to find every excuse to roll skill checks to regain cunning (as I would do).
Ultimately the goal is not to automatically allow the rogue to re-fill the cunning pool after every combat. I would not award cunning to a rogue for rolling a skill check in a non-dramatic, non-relevant situation. If he goes off and gets in trouble or saves the party with a lucky Perception check, though, I'm okay with him getting a point of cunning back. He doesn't have that much of it to spend anyway - I can't imagine most rogues will have more than 2 or 3 even if they have a generous stat system, unless they're multiclassing or something with an Int or Cha class.
Possibly I'm showing my Savage Worlds experience here, where I'm inclined to give a benny (that game's in-game currency) to cool ideas and fun descriptions. That's really what I'm going for here - rewarding rogues for pulling off something brilliantly and with style. I'd add the same 'you did something awesome!' language that the gunslinger has in the sidebar about how they regain grit.
This is probably the best thought out full class revision I've seen in a while. I quite like it, and as a huge credit to you, you even made it mostly malleable for what stats a rogue uses, saving me that rant.
There are many cool ideas in here, and I agree with a lot of these, but that isn't to say some (hopefully) constructive criticism isn't in order. Praise is nice, but criticism is useful, so don't take anything personal. (I need to set up a script to just auto-insert that on the first post I make in a Homebrew thread, hmm)
Thanks for the kind words. Don't worry, your feedback is excellent and well-reasoned, the best kind of feedback. Nothing here that bothers me.
Cunning Pool and the ways to get it back:
I'm a huge fan of grit. I think it's a really cool idea, especially the cyclical nature of it. I don't care for cries of MAD-ness unless the class requires 5 stats, as 4 is about the average. But there are some serious issues with its use here.For one, the ways to get it back. 5% chance on a skill check. Hard to rely on in combat, and effectively means they are refilled after every combat. You'll note that the way gunslingers get it are all combat oriented, even though not all deeds are combat oriented. Well, ok they all are except one. This ensures that the gunslinger can't just refill their grit after every combat. Here's where the problem is apparent: the gunslinger is all about combat. The rogue, not so much. So certainly, there's a good reason to allow a way to regain cunning outside of combat. But there really should not be a way to just fill it after combat, especially since combat applications are generally pretty good.
As well, it's quite easy to stack skills against what enemies will reasonably be able to beat. I wouldn't recommend many solutions to regaining cunning that involved opposed rolls.
I disagree that it means they'll get it all back after every combat. I wouldn't give them cunning back if they were deliberately rolling skill checks just to regain cunning - that's not where I was going with it. I'm just not sure how to phrase it to say "don't be a wanker and waste everybody's time just to regain cunning" in a mechanical way.
I agree that opposed rolls aren't the answer, as I outlined above.
What do you think would work well as a not-necessarily-in-combat cunning recovery method based on skill use? I couldn't come up with anything better than the natural 20 on a skill check.
Another serious issue is that you're keeping costs the same as they were for ninjas. This causes some issues since the "worth" of a point is vastly different between a Ki Pool and Grit. With Ki Pool, you'll be getting quite a lot eventually. This is not the case with Cunning. This is akin to using Zimbabwean dollars to have the same worth as US dollars. Sure, they're both "dollars", but the worth of each one is much different.
Grit doesn't give a lot of flexibility in costs - you're really only looking at 1 or 2 points, and I figured 2 should be pretty darned rare, pretty much reserved for advanced talents, and the good ones at that. I'm estimating almost all rogues will have 2 or 3 grit for most of their careers (until they can afford a secondary stat boost item, which is usually what, maybe 8-10ish? If they can spare the slot?)
Which ones do you think are poorly costed? Under or over-costed?
Dippability:
Rogue talents probably shouldn't be available at first level. They are passable without them at first level, and the whole point of putting them at 2nd level is to ensure that you'd have to halfway commit to the class rather than just making a single dip level, and then taking Extra Rogue Talent over and over again to get the same goodies the rogue does, minus higher sneak attack. The classes that get their Menu Choice Options at first level all have not much else going for them :)Note that this is especially good with some rogue talents, since there's no longer a pool that's based on your level. A magus 9 / rogue 1 will get quite a bit of cunning that they can use on all the rogue talents they picked up with Extra Rogue Talent. The ability to go invisible as a swift action before using spell combat would be very useful, for example.
In essence, you've made rogue a very useful dip due to the wide-reaching nature of the rogue talents, as well as the fluid nature of cunning.
Making both of these, cunning and rogue talents, available at 2nd level fixes most of these issues, as there's a mountain of difference between a 1 and 2 level dip.
Fair point. I put the talent at 1st level after a suggestion in the recent thread on Master Arminas's rogue. It replaced granting Weapon Finesse at 1st level, but you're right in that it creates too good a dip.
What are your thoughts on free Weapon Finesse at 1st level? I've never been sold on it, myself, but most of the rogue revisions I've seen seem to put it front and center. Talents should be where it's at for a rogue, not a predetermined fighting style.
Acrobatics Master: I feel this may as well be an auto-success when it comes to getting past without AoOs. Would mobility affect it? In general, using skills in place of non-skill rolls should be very limited, since it's so easy to boost skills as opposed to other rolls. Careful.
Riffing on Mounted Combat's mechanics, mostly. CMDs can be crazy even for a rogue that's good at Acrobatics, especially as levels get up there. What did you think of the ninja's +20 to an Acrobatics roll for 1 ki point as a swift? That's mostly an auto-success as well.
Positioning Attack: 30 is a bit excessive. I understand why you're doing it, size categories larger than Medium, but still.
That's straight from source, actually. The original ability was just the same except it was 1/day only and wasn't an action of any type. What are you thinking, half their speed?
Sniper's Eye: +30' is huge, and the reason for the 30' range is a solid one. I would shorten the range by quite a bit.
Hmmmm. I disagree, but I can see a rewrite. My intent was to make actual, you know, SNIPING viable. Possibly some kind of aim action as a standard that increases the range at which you can deal SA damage? How would that strike you? I could never see the logic of +10' per talent for the RAW talents. Why do you think this is so powerful? Admittedly I need to fix a few other talents that can be used with ranged attacks that probably shouldn't, but shots from a decent distance should, in my mind, be possible. Keep in mind also that there's a magic item out there from Paizo that removes all range limits on sneak attack and gives an additional damage bonus, which I thought was significantly more powerful than it should be.
Sniping is not currently a viable rogue tactic, and I want it to be, without having to pay for a magic item. 12 squares on a map instead of 6 just doesn't seem like that big a deal to me. Why does it seem so powerful to you?
Weapon Snatcher: See above about skill checks replacing other things. There's a reason why it's an advanced talent :)
I don't know, disarm is usually a pretty poorly-regarded combat maneuver in my experience. It's very situational and lots of things can prevent it, and the people you want to use it against the most usually have the highest CMD to block you. Do you think it'd be okay with a cunning cost? Maybe Sleight of Hand-related prereqs like Skill Adept or Skill Focus?
Getting tired, I'll reply to the rest tomorrow. Thanks again for your thoughts, they're very helpful!
Cudos to you!
Nice work.
and...
Dotting.
Master of Disguise: I'm very iffy on this one, especially the ability to disguise as specific person.
I think that's the best part. It's the ninja identity theft power! Why does the ability to replicate an individual bother you? It's powerful, sure, but it's an advanced talent.
Slippery Mind: The original was fine. With this one you may as well just give them immunity to harmful mind-affecting effects, as that's what the ability does. Even no saves ones? Yea, no.
This is actually just the Paizo "Hard to Fool" talent, which was strictly an improvement on Slippery Mind. You've got a fair point, though, this is effectively immunity to mind-affecting powers, and Slippery Mind was already pretty useful.
Acrobatic Maneuver: Yay for autosuccess! Don't do this. They shouldn't be nearly autosuccesses.
My trouble is that rogues should be good at maneuvers - it encourages a fighting style that lets them get SA (with Feint and Dirty Trick) and is more interesting than trading full attacks all the time. However, with a medium BAB they'll have trouble pulling maneuvers off, especially after mid levels where most fights are against Huge+ creatures with a bunch of Strength and BAB that means rogues will never make CMB checks. You're right that it's probably too good, though. Not sure where to find the middle ground here.
Bully: Strongly recommend not doing this as written and will recommend at most dealing half sneak attack under these conditions. There are so many ways to get free Intimidate checks that it really shouldn't happen with full SA.
But then how would my Batman write-up that depends on all those work? (Enforcer, Gory Finish, Boar Style, Skill Adept (Intimidate), and Bully) You're probably right, though. Do you think half SA would be okay, or do you think a cost or an action to pull it off would be enough?
Confounding Movement: Un-wanted Side Effects senses tingling. I'd nix it just to be safe.
I'm not attached to this one - it's a conversion of the core ability of the Harrier class from Iron Heroes that a guy in my group really seemed to enjoy when we tried that system. It does work too well with Quick Footwork, as you've mentioned, and I think that's a more interesting and useful power, so I'd rather nix this ability than that one.
Improved Sniper's Eye: Nope :)
See my earlier disagreement on Sniper's Eye. I just can't see anyone taking it if it's just +10' per increment.
Ki Breakthrough: I don't know what this has to do with rogues. Ninjas maybe, but it doesn't require shadow magic.
Fair point. It makes more sense as a feat that helps with multiclassing - several of these rogue talents do, actually.
Quick Footwork: Ah yea, here's what my Un-Wanted Side Effects senses were detecting. Full-attack sneak attack for 1 cunning point. Due tothe strength of full attack sneak attack, this has a decent chance of killing the enemy. Gaining the cunning point spent back. This really shouldn't be so easy, especially since you already placed something similar as an advanced talent that uses up 2 cunning points (hunter's surprise?)
I'll nix Confounding Movement, as discussed above. What do you think of this ability without that option in play?
Team Player: I don't get why the rogue has it, but it's probably fine. Kinda nudges on the inquisitor, but it does cost resources.
I like teamwork feats, and think teams of rogues make sense - they work well together with SA and flanking. This allows rogues to work together well with inquisitors, since it relies on SOMEBODY having the teamwork feat they're copying.
Trapsmith: Again with the "different values of points" thing. I really don't recommend just assuming every point is worth the same.
Hm. Do you think this is over or under costed, then? I was just using the points to get away from the per-day mechanics of the Learn Ranger Trap feat. I don't view the ranger trap mechanics as all that powerful - you have to spend cunning for it and plan your fight ahead of time, which can occasionally work out and be very powerful, but it's not something you can rely on every time.
Vicious Ambush: Ranged rogues are meant to have difficulty landing sneak attack due to the high extra damage it grants. This negates that aspect without lowering the damage, and as such I strongly recommend making it melee only or at most making it the first two attacks if it works with ranged.
Hmmm. This was a Batman-inspired talent - I was picturing a flurry of shuriken dropping several guards from stealth, or a surprise flurry that devastates a single guy. Perhaps an advanced talent that costs 2 cunning to activate? I can see making it one extra attack, but I'd keep it a standard talent if I did that. It IS a very powerful ability, but it's also one that I think makes good sense for a rogue to have.
In what ways would you have changed this if your perspective was as a class for use by NPCs against the party?
Hm. Cunning is a very PC-centric ability, since it depends on dropping enemies or rolling a lot of skill checks to recharge it. Honestly most enemy rogues are going to blow all their cunning as fast as possible just to get it used before they get killed - that's the fate of most bad guys, though. It's not very defensive, something the standard rogue also lacks, but I can't imagine picking any of the cunning-costing defensive powers for an enemy rogue, as they won't get used much. Hm. I suppose I would have given it some more defensive powers that didn't cost cunning to improve survivability.
What about recovering Cunning when you achieve surprise (you win the surprise roll, at least one enemy doesn't), against meaningful enemies (not fluffy bunnies or encounters way below APL).
That kinda limits it to Stealth-focused rogues, though, doesn't it? I want to reward the trapspringer and diplomacy rogues, too.
I forgot that when I write long posts, people sometimes respond to everything :-)
I will respond later. My NPC question was actually aiming at the 60' / 90' sneak attack thing, as that's the reason for the short range. It isn't fun for PCs to have to deal with that.
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Maybe make a list of about eight Cunning Recovery Triggers. At level 1, you pick one CRT, and at levels 5, 10, 15 and 20 you select another CRT. Whenever a CRT you selected occurs, you regain a point of cunning.
Possible CRTs:
- discover/disarm a trap (difficult enough trap)
- achieve surprise
- change an attitude by two steps
- drop an enemy with precision damage (or bleed damage inflicted by a SA talent)
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The general idea is that you get to branch out your operations, but also have to have a degree of focus in what your character does. You never get to get all the CRTs.
Maybe make a list of about eight Cunning Recovery Triggers. At level 1, you pick one CRT, and at levels 5, 10, 15 and 20 you select another CRT. Whenever a CRT you selected occurs, you regain a point of cunning.
Possible CRTs:
- discover/disarm a trap (difficult enough trap)
- achieve surprise
- change an attitude by two steps
- drop an enemy with precision damage (or bleed damage inflicted by a SA talent)
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-The general idea is that you get to branch out your operations, but also have to have a degree of focus in what your character does. You never get to get all the CRTs.
Hmmm. Interesting idea. It'd give the rogue flexibility in what they get rewarded for, which makes sense, but sound like it'd make it easier to game ways to get back cunning.
I considered something like that, in that I was going to include additional cunning recovery methods at the end of talent trees as a reward for going all the way through them. They wouldn't have kicked in until at least 10th level, though, since all the tree capstones that I was thinking of were advanced talents. I didn't get very far in developing that idea, though.
For example, at one point I was considering a Poisoned Strike talent tree, where the rogue can spend cunning to add self-crafted, non-gp-costing poison to his weapon strikes (created using a daily resource, like smoke bombs and an alchemist's bombs). The end of the tree included something like "if an enemy is dropped by a poison you inflicted, gain a point of cunning", though the talent did something else as well.
I forgot that when I write long posts, people sometimes respond to everything :-)
I will respond later. My NPC question was actually aiming at the 60' / 90' sneak attack thing, as that's the reason for the short range. It isn't fun for PCs to have to deal with that.
I've had PCs deal with snipers in other games where it's actually a viable tactic (like Deadlands). It's hard to deal with, but not so much that I think it'd cause excessive frustration. Smart rogues should be frustrating to deal with, shouldn't they? It's certainly less likely to be annoying than a battlefield-control spellcaster, I think.
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I'm in favor of making classes as a mix of choice and fixed elements. There should be a basic structure (fixed CRT increases at certain levels; numbers to be decided for balance reasons), but choice in what they'll be exactly. Compare to paladin Mercies for example.
I'm not wild about long talent trees; I think that rewards specialization too much. I'd rather have that a bit more loose; you can specialize in one direction making you good at that CRT, but you're going to get multiple CRTs so it's also valid to lay groundwork in several directions to get a lot of smaller chances rather than one big chance.
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Sniping: this is often problematic in games, since being sniped at as PC is often awful. You're just walking along, maybe you missed one Perception check, and Bam! You're dead.
On the other hand, the current system feels way too gimped. It's absurdly hard to qualify for SA ranged attacks, both because of range and of even getting targets to lower their Dex bonus to AC.
I think that generally, bonus damage from SA won't be too high as to cause a lot of first-turn kills, particularly if you can't easily full-attack SA.
Maybe some combination of the following two principles:
* Rate of fire on ranged SAs should be limited. First you need talents to unlock longer-range SA, but even then you can only make one SA at ranged beyond 30ft per round. This to prevent long-range full attack madness.
* Ranged SAs should mostly occur within an area where opponents can reach the rogue in melee in one round. That's the basis for the 30ft I guess; it should never grow beyond say, 60ft, for this reason.
So you might increase the range where you can shoot multiple SAs to 60ft eventually, and the range where you can single-shoot SAs to the range of your ranged weapon.
Single shots are not likely to kill anyone of equal level; and one round time to seek/make cover before the next shot should give decent chances for survival to significant enemies. Meanwhile, sniping is still good to pick off sentries and petty officers. And if you survive a shot, you really want to make sure the sniper won't have time to line up a new shot, which is as it should be.
I've put together the following revision to the rogue base class. Please let me know what you think of these changes.
I promise to review in more details but first let me tell you, nice presentation!
Second comment: I agree with posters above about rejuvenation of cunning pool: I wish there was another non-combat way to gain cunning points. In my games, my players used their rogues mainly to avoid combat (and once combat breaks, avoid having to drop the opponent to 0 hp).
'findel
I really like this a lot! I'll be using this for the rogue in the game I'm DMing tonight. Though I agree with the criticism of the Talent at level 1. Instead I'm giving them free Weapon Finesse. That also saves me needing to explain the changes presented here until they understand their character better (1st time player).
Regarding the discussion about Weapon Finesse for free, here's my two cents. It's not forcing them into a particular style, it prevents a feat tax for the most clear method of fighting the class offers.
Very very few rogue archetypes put high value on Str. Almost all rogue archetypes put high value on Dex. This means that almost any rogue build without Weapon Finesse is totally boned in melee. I feel that in the new build, making weapon finesse the default talent at level 1 is the right approach. If someone brings a build that really wants a different talent, let's talk about it.
I'd probably just delay giving them the cunning pool until level 2, and thus by default restricting them from choosing any talents that require spending cunning until then?
My two cents.
All-in-all, I really like this!
dot-o-mundo
The like the grit-esque addition. However, even though the gunslingers point pool is based off of one ability, I feel it stiffles the rogue. Part of my love for the rogue class is that a PC can use strength, intelligence, wisdom, or charisma as secondary or tertiary ability scores, and I feel that this does not encourage that.
EDIT: I noticed the archetype to use charisma. What about wisdom?
I didn't do a Wisdom-based rogue because I don't think of Wisdom as a rogue-relevant stat, and couldn't think of any examples of a Wis-focused rogue. Just doesn't feel like a rogue archetype. Obviously it's a simple addition if anybody is attached to the idea. Initially I was going to limit talents by Cunning or Panache, but decided to just let people describe things differently instead.
I will try and post a second draft tonight if I can avoid the lure of Guild Wars 2. Once again, thanks to all for the feedback.
Would people ya'll like the cunning recovery if I put the GM-subjective Daring Act of Awesome cunning recovery method from the gunslinger's grit in there?
Between charisma, intelligence and wisdom, wisdom easily has the fewest skills that key off it, the most notable of which for a rogue are perception and sense motive. The increase in the rogue's will save is welcome, but hardly makes intelligence and charisma forgettable.
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I was hoping to hear back from Cheapy before I did a second draft of this, since I was curious about some of his thoughts, but I'll go ahead and put this together. I hope it addresses some concerns people have.
Changes:
- Bumped cunning and first rogue talent to 2nd level
- Added clarification to regaining cunning with a natural 20 on a skill check, that it has to be during an encounter
- Added daring act to the list of ways to regain cunning
- Changed Acrobatic Master to be 1/round as long as the rogue has cunning, costs an immediate action
- Increased bonus HP from Resiliency to be equal to twice the rogue's level
- Changed Sniper's Eye to be a move action to increase sneak attack damage range for the rest of the rogue's turn
- Used the standard Slippery Mind instead of Hard to Fool for Slippery Mind (added Slippery Mind to the list of unchanged advanced talents)
- Rewrote Acrobatic Maneuver talent to increase rogue's CMB when fighting creatures larger than himself
- Decreased Bully to half sneak attack damage
- Deleted Confounding Movement talent
- Updated Improved Sniper's Eye to reflect changes to Sniper's Eye
- Updated Extraordinary Reflexes to work like Combat Reflexes
- Changed Doublestrike to be part of an attack action, so it can be used with Spring Attack
- Added the Bloody Mess advanced talent to increase bleed damage from Bleeding Attack and regain cunning when a target you've inflicted bleeding on is dropped
- Renamed the Surprise Attack advanced talent to Amazing Reaction, and changed it to follow Quick Reaction rather than doing mostly the same thing in a different way.
Cunning & Panache: SteelDraco's Revised Rogue, 2nd Draft
Alignment: Any
Hit Die: d8
Starting Wealth: 4d6 × 10 gp (average 140 gp.) In addition, each character begins play with an outfit worth 10 gp or less.
Class Skills
The rogue's class skills are Acrobatics (Dex), Appraise (Int), Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Disable Device (Dex), Disguise (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (dungeoneering) (Int), Knowledge (local) (Int), Linguistics (Int), Perception (Wis), Perform (Cha), Profession (Wis), Sense Motive (Wis), Sleight of Hand (Dex), Stealth (Dex), Swim (Str), and Use Magic Device (Cha).
Skill Ranks per Level: 8 + Int modifier.
Base Attack Bonus: Medium
Fortitude Save: Poor
Reflex Save: Good
Will Save: Poor
1st: Sneak attack +1d6, trapfinding
2nd: Cunning pool, evasion, rogue talent
3rd: Sneak attack +2d6, trap sense +1
4th: Rogue talent, uncanny dodge
5th: Sneak attack +3d6
6th: Rogue talent, trap sense +2
7th: Sneak attack +4d6
8th: Improved uncanny dodge, rogue talent
9th: Sneak attack +5d6, trap sense +3
10th: Advanced talents, rogue talent
11th: Sneak attack +6d6
12th: Rogue talent
13th: Sneak attack +7d6
14th: Rogue talent
15th: Sneak attack +8d6, trap sense +5
16th: Rogue talent
17th: Sneak attack +9d6
18th: Rogue talent
19th: Sneak attack +10d6
20th: Master strike, rogue talent
Cunning
Rogues live on their skill, improvisation, and fortune. A rogue who can't outthink his opponents is not likely to survive to see another day - he lives or dies by his cunning. In game terms, cunning is a fluctuating measure of a rogue's ability to manage amazing feats. At the start of each day, a rogue gains a number of cunning points equal to his Intelligence modifier (minimum 1). His cunning goes up or down during the day, but usually cannot go higher than his Intelligence modifier (minimum 1), though some things may affect this maximum. The rogue spends cunning to use his rogue talents, and regains cunning in the following ways.
- The rogue gains a point of cunning when he rolls a natural 20 on a skill check during an encounter with a CR greater than or equal to the rogue's character level - 2.
- The rogue gains a point of cunning when he reduces a worthy opponent to 0 or fewer hit points with an attack that deals sneak attack damage.
- The rogue gains a point of cunning when he performs a daring act. As a general guideline, a daring act should be risky and dramatic. It should be a dangerous action, testing the rogue's cunning and ability to survive, and carry a low chance of success. If it is successful, the rogue regains 1 cunning point. Before attempting a daring act, the player should ask the GM whether the action qualifies. The GM is the final arbiter of what is considered a daring act, and can grant a point of cunning for a daring act even if the player does not ask beforehand whether the act qualifies.
To count as a "worthy opponent," a creature must have a number of hit dice equal to or greater than half the rogue's character level.
While he has at least 1 point in his cunning pool, a rogue adds half his level to all initiative rolls (minimum +1).
Panache (Rogue Archetype)
Some rogues are dashing and charming, relying on their charisma to carry them successfully through life when others rely on their wits. This ability replaces the cunning pool ability and modifies a number of rogue talents. Panache functions just the same as a cunning pool, save that it is based on Charisma instead of Intelligence. All references to a cunning pool refer instead to the rogue's panache pool. Save DCs and benefits for all rogue talents that rely on Intelligence instead rely on Charisma for a panache rogue.
Modifications to the Core Class:
Combine the rogue's list of talents and advanced talents with the ninja's list of tricks and master tricks. The full list of available rogue talents is as follows.
Befuddling Strike
Black Market Connections
Bleeding Attack
Choking Bomb*
Coax Information
Combat Trick
Cunning Trigger
Deflect Arrows*
Distracting Attack
Fast Getaway
Fast Picks
Fast Stealth
Finesse Rogue
Firearm Training
Flurry of Stars*
Follow Clues
Getaway Artist
Guileful Polyglot
Hidden Weapons
Iron Guts
Major Magic
Minor Magic
Offensive Defense
Poison Bomb*
Pressure Points*
Quick Disable
Quick Disguise
Rogue Crawl
Rope Master
Slow Metabolism*
Slow Reactions
Snap Shot
Snatch Arrows*
Strong Impression
Style Master*
Surprise Attack
Swift Poison
Terrain Mastery
Trap Spotter
Weapon Training
Confounding Blades
Crippling Strike
Deadly Cocktail
Dispelling Attack
Entanglement of Blades
Feat
Getaway Master
Improved Evasion
Opportunist
Skill Mastery
Slippery Mind
Canny Observer
Charmer
Combat Swipe
Convincing Lie
Deft Palm
False Friend
Fast Fingers
Feather Fall
Forgotten Trick*
Hold Breath
Honeyed Words
Ki Pool
Lasting Poison
Ledge Walker
Obfuscate Story
Peerless Maneuver
Powerful Sneak
Quick Trapsmith
Strong Stroke
Survivalist
Wall Climber
Advanced Talent
Deadly Shuriken*
Deadly Sneak
Hard to Fool
Master Disguise*
Rumormonger
Thoughtful Reexamining
Acrobatic Master* (Ex): While he has at least 1 cunning in his cunning pool, if a rogue fails to beat an opponent's CMD when making an Acrobatics check to avoid an attack of opportunity, he may use his Acrobatics check result in place of his Armor Class against that attack, if it is better. Activating this ability is an immediate action.
Assault Leader (Ex): As an immediate action when the rogue misses with an attack on a flanked opponent, she can designate a single ally who is also flanking the target that her attack missed. That ally can make a single melee attack against the opponent as an immediate action. Using this ability costs 1 point of cunning. The rogue must be at least 6th level to select this ability.
Camouflage (Ex): A rogue with this talent can craft simple but effective camouflage from the surrounding foliage. The rogue needs 1 minute to prepare the camouflage, but once she does, it is good for the rest of the day or until the wearer fails a saving throw against an area effect spell that deals fire, cold, or acid damage, whichever comes first. The wearer gains a +4 bonus on Stealth checks while within terrain that matches the foliage used to make the camouflage. This ability cannot be used in areas without natural foliage. When the rogue uses this ability, he may prepare camouflage for himself plus one additional ally per three levels. Activating this ability costs one point of cunning.
Cat Burglar (Ex): A rogue with this talent retains her Dexterity bonus to AC while climbing and using the Acrobatics skill to balance on a narrow surface. She also moves at his full speed while using the Acrobatics skill in this manner without penalty.
Darkvision* (Su): A rogue with this talent has learned to use his connection to shadows to see in complete darkness. Activating this ability is a standard action that costs 1 point of cunning. For one hour, the rogue gains darkvision to a range of 60'. A rogue must have the shadow magic talent to select this ability.
Esoteric Scholar (Ex): A rogue with this talent has picked up a bit of knowledge on a variety of subjects. He many roll Knowledge checks untrained. If he spends 1 point of cunning, he may add half his rogue level to an untrained Knowledge check.
Expert Leaper (Ex): When making jump checks, the rogue is always considered to have a running start as long as he has at least 1 point of cunning. When falling, the rogue may always make an Acrobatics check to reduce the damage, as if falling deliberately. A DC 15 Acrobatics check reduces the falling damage by 1d6, and by an additional 1d6 for every three points over 15.
Fast Tumble (Ex): As the advanced talent, except it's not an advanced talent.
Frugal Trapsmith (Ex): As the advanced talent, except it's not an advanced talent.
Grit (Ex): A rogue with this talent may choose one 1st level deed from the list of gunslinger deeds and one grit feat that he qualifies for. He may spend cunning to activate these abilities as though he were spending grit. A rogue must have Exotic Weapon Proficiency (firearms) to select this talent.
High Jumper (Ex): When a rogue with this talent makes a high jump, the DC for that jump is half the normal DC. The rogue must have the expert leaper talent before selecting this one.
Improvised Trick* (Ex): A rogue with this ability excels at improvisation. As a standard action, she may spend 2 cunning and select any rogue talent that she qualifies for (though not an advanced talent). She gains that talent for a number of rounds equal to her level. If the chosen ability costs cunning, she must pay all normal costs associated with it.
Ki Block* (Su): A rogue with this talent has learned to combine her studies of ki with her knowledge of vital strikes to prevent a target from using its own ki pool. When she damages a target with a sneak attack, they must make a Will save (DC 10 + 1/2 her rogue level + her Intelligence modifier). If they fail, they cannot spend ki points for a number of rounds equal to the rogue's Intelligence modifier. Their ki pool total does not change, and they can use abilities that do not require the subject to spend ki still function. A rogue must have the ki breakthrough talent to select this talent.
Positioning Attack (Ex): When a rogue with this talent hits a creature with a melee attack, she can move up to half his speed without provoking attacks of opportunity. The movement must end in a space adjacent to the creature hit with the melee attack. Activating this ability is an immediate action that costs 1 point of cunning.
Resiliency (Ex): As an immediate action, a rogue with this ability can gain a number of temporary hit points equal to twice his level. This ability can only be activated when she is brought below 0 hit points. This ability can be used to prevent her from dying. These temporary hit points last for 1 minute, and this ability cannot be used again during that time. If the rogue's hit points drop below 0 due to the loss of these temporary hit points, she falls unconscious and is dying as normal. Activating this ability costs 1 cunning.
See the Unseen* (Su): A rogue with this talent learns how to see invisible creatures through his connection to shadows. As a swift action, the rogue can cast see invisibility, using his level as the caster level. Each use of this ability costs 1 cunning. A rogue must have the shadow magic talent to select this ability.
Shadow Clone* (Su): The rogue has learned to create shadowy duplicates of himself to confuse attackers. This functions as a mirror image spell with a caster level equal to the rogue's level. Using this ability is a standard action that costs 1 point of cunning. The rogue must have the shadow magic talent to learn this ability.
Smoke Bomb* (Ex): This ability allows a rogue to throw a smoke bomb that creates a cloud of smoke with a 15-foot radius. This acts like the smoke from a smokestick. The rogue can center this smoke on herself, or throw the bomb as a ranged touch attack with a range of 20 feet. Using this ability is a standard action. Each use of this ability costs 1 point of cunning.
Sniper's Eye (Ex): As a move action, a rogue with this talent may take aim at a distant target to improve the range at which he can deal precision damage, such as sneak attack. Using this ability is a move action; the rogue must make a sneak attack before the end of his turn, or the benefit of this ability is lost. Using this ability increases the range at which the rogue can apply sneak attack damage with a ranged attack by 30', and may apply his sneak attack damage on ranged attacks to targets within this distance that currently have concealment. Foes with total concealment are still immune.
Special: If this rogue has other talents that can only be used within 30', the range for those abilities is also increased by 30' during a round in which he uses this ability.
Stand Up (Ex): A rogue with this ability can stand up from a prone position as a free action. She may make an Acrobatics check to avoid the attack of opportunity this provokes with a bonus to the roll equal to 1/2 her rogue level. The DC of this check is equal to her opponent's CMD.
Stealthy Sniper (Ex): As the advanced talent, except it isn't an advanced talent.
Underhanded (Ex): A rogue with this talent gains a +4 circumstance bonus on all Sleight of Hand checks made to conceal a weapon. Furthermore, if she makes a sneak attack during the surprise round using a concealed weapon that her opponent didn't know about, she may spend 1 cunning. If she does so, all sneak attack damage she deals against that target during the surprise round is increased by 50% (count up the sneak attack dice and multiply by 1.5).
Unwitting Ally (Ex): A rogue with this talent can spend a swift action and 1 cunning to attempt to make an opponent act like an ally for purposes of providing a flank until the beginning of the rogue’s next turn. The opponent must be able to hear and see the rogue, and the rogue must succeed at a Bluff check opposed by the opponent’s Sense Motive. If the check succeeds, the opponent acts as an ally for the purpose of providing a flank. Whether or not the check succeeds, the rogue cannot use this trick again on the same opponent for the next 24 hours. If the rogue fails the check by 5 or more, she cannot use the unwitting ally ability on any opponent within line of sight of the failed attempt for 24 hours.
Wall Scramble* (Ex): A rogue with this talent has learned to climb with astonishing speed and grace when necessary. As a swift action, he may spend 1 cunning to gain a climb speed equal to two-thirds of his base speed (rounded to the nearest 5' increment - 20' for a creature with a 30' speed and 15' for a creature with a 20' speed). This lasts for one minute per level. To select this talent, a rogue must have skill focus (climb) or skill adept (climb).
Weapon Snatcher (Ex): As the advanced talent, except it isn't an advanced talent.
Another Day (Ex): When the rogue would be reduced to 0 or fewer hit points by a melee attack, she can take a 5-foot step as an immediate action that costs 2 points of cunning. If this movement takes her out of the reach of the attack, she takes no damage from the attack. The rogue is staggered for 1 round on her next turn.
Assassinate* (Ex): A rogue with this advanced talent can kill foes that are unable to defend themselves. To attempt to assassinate a target, the rogue must first study her target for 1 round as a standard action and spend 2 cunning. On the following round, if the rogue makes a sneak attack against the target and the target is denied its Dexterity bonus to AC, the sneak attack has the additional effect of possibly killing the target. This attempt automatically fails if the target recognizes the rogue as an enemy. If the sneak attack is successful and the target of the attack fails a Fortitude save, it dies. The DC of this save is equal to 10 + 1/2 the rogue's level + the rogue's Intelligence modifier. If the save is successful, the target still takes the sneak attack damage as normal, but it is immune to that rogue's assassinate ability for 1 day.
Blinding Bomb* (Ex): Whenever the rogue throws a smoke bomb, all living creatures in the cloud must make a Fortitude save or be blinded by the black smoke for 1d4 rounds. The DC of this save is 10 + 1/2 the rogue's level + the rogue's Intelligence modifier. This talent cannot be combined with a choking bomb, but the rogue can combine a choking bomb with a poison bomb. The rogue must have the choking bomb talent before selecting this ability.
Defensive Roll (Ex): With this advanced talent, the rogue can roll with a potentially lethal blow to take less damage from it than she otherwise would. When she would be reduced to 0 or fewer hit points by damage in combat (from a weapon or other blow, not a spell or special ability), the rogue can attempt to roll with the damage. To use this ability, the rogue must attempt a Reflex saving throw (DC = damage dealt). If the save succeeds, she takes only half damage from the blow; if it fails, she takes full damage. She must be aware of the attack and able to react to it in order to execute her defensive roll—if she is denied her Dexterity bonus to AC, she can't use this ability. Since this effect would not normally allow a character to make a Reflex save for half damage, the rogue's evasion ability does not apply to the defensive roll. Activating this ability reduces the rogue's cunning pool to 0; she must have at least 2 cunning available to use this ability.
Ghost Step* (Su): As a swift action, a rogue with this talent can pass through walls as if he were a ghost. Until the end of his turn, he can pass through walls or other surfaces that are up to 5 feet thick per level as if he were incorporeal. He must exit solid material by the end of his turn, or be thrust out violently into the nearest open space, suffering 1d6 points of damage per 5 feet that he travels this way. Activating this ability costs 2 cunning. A rogue must have the shadow magic talent to select this ability.
Hide in Plain Sight (Ex): This functions as the assassin ability of the same name. The rogue must have one of this following talents to select this ability: favored terrain, shadow magic, skill adept (stealth), or skill focus (stealth). If the rogue has the favored terrain talent but none of the other talents listed, this ability functions only in his favored terrain. This is an advanced talent.
Hunter's Surprise (Ex): As a swift action that costs 2 points of cunning, a rogue with this talent can designate a single enemy within 30' as her prey. Until the end of her next turn, she can add her sneak attack damage to all attacks made against her prey, even if she is not flanking it or it is not denied its Dexterity bonus against her. While this power is in effect, she does not regain cunning by dropping the target with an attack that causes sneak attack damage.
Special: If the rogue has the Sniper's Eye or Improved Sniper's Eye talents, the range of this ability is increased to 60' or 90', respectively.
Invisible Blade* (Su): This rogue is a student of the deepest mysteries of shadow magic. Whenever she uses the shadow magic talent, she is treated as if she were under the effects of greater invisibility. The rogue must have the shadow magic talent before selecting this advanced talent.
Knock-Out Blow (Ex): As part of an attack, the rogue may spend 2 cunning and forgo his sneak attack damage to attempt to knock out an opponent. He must declare the use of knock-out blow before he makes the attack. If the attack hits, it does normal damage, but instead of dealing sneak attack damage (and instead of any effect that triggers when the rogue deals sneak attack damage), the target falls unconscious for 1d4 rounds. A successful Fortitude save reduces this effect to staggered for 1 round. The DC of this save is equal to 10 + 1/2 the rogue's level + the rogue's Intelligence modifier.
Master of Disguise (Su): A rogue with this talent can take on the appearance of other creatures and individuals. Whenever the rogue uses the many faces talent, the duration increases to 10 minutes per level. Alternatively, the rogue can use the many faces talent to take on the appearance of a specific individual that the rogue has seen before for 1 minute per level. Creatures that are familiar with the individual receive a Will saving throw (DC 10 + 1/2 the rogue's level + the rogue's Intelligence modifier) to see through the illusion. This illusion also changes the rogue's speech, if she has heard the individual talk and can speak his language. The rogue must have the many faces talent before selecting this talent.
Redirect Attack (Ex): When a rogue with this talent is hit with a melee attack, she can spend 2 cunning as an immediate action to redirect the attack to strike at an adjacent creature. The creature targeted must be within melee reach of the attack that hit the rogue, and the creature that made the attack against the rogue must make a new attack roll against the new target.
Shadow Split* (Su): This talent allows the rogue to create an illusory double of herself that moves away from her, allowing the rogue to create a distraction. When she uses this ability, an illusory double appears and moves away from the rogue, heading in one direction. The double climbs walls, jumps pits, or simply passes through obstacles, moving at twice the rogue’s speed in the direction indicated by the rogue when the ability is used. Its course cannot be changed. The double persists for 1 round per level of the rogue. Those who interact with the double receive a Will saving throw to recognize that it is fake. The DC of this save is 10 + 1/2 the rogue’s level + the rogue’s Intelligence modifier. Each use of this ability costs 1 cunning. The rogue must possess the shadow clone rogue talent before selecting this talent.
Unarmed Combat Mastery* (Ex): A rogue with this talent deals damage with his unarmed strikes as if she were a monk of her rogue level - 4. If the rogue has levels in monk, this ability stacks with monk levels to determine how much damage he deals with his unarmed strikes. A rogue must have the Improved Unarmed Strike feat before selecting this talent.
Unbound Steps* (Su): This rogue has taken his ability to walk across surfaces to a supernatural level. When this rogue uses the light steps talent, he can walk on air, rising or descending as he desires. He must end his move on a solid surface. Each use of this ability costs 1 cunning. A rogue must have the light steps talent to select this ability.
Acrobatic Maneuver (Ex): Some rogues are adept at fighting foes much larger than themselves. A rogue with this talent gains a +2 bonus on combat maneuver checks for each size category between his size and his target's, as long as the target is larger than he is.
Acquired Immunity (Ex): A rogue with this talent has acquired immunity to a small group of poisons. When he selects this talent, he chooses a number of different specific poisons equal to his Constitution modifier that he has been exposed to at least once. He is immune to these poisons. Once these poisons have been selected, they may not be changed. The rogue must have the poison resistance talent or the great fortitude feat to select this talent.
Bully (Ex): A rogue with this talent is adept at fighting foes too frightened to defend themselves properly. While he has at least 1 cunning, he may add half his sneak attack damage (rounded down) against any enemy suffering from a fear condition (shaken, frightened, or panicked).
Cunning Defense (Ex): As an immediate action, a rogue with this talent may gain a circumstance bonus to his AC and CMD equal to his Intelligence modifier until the beginning of his next turn. Activating this ability costs 1 point from his cunning pool.
Cunning Maneuver (Ex): As a swift action that costs 1 point of cunning, this rogue may gain a circumstance bonus to his CMB and on Bluff checks made to feint equal to his Intelligence modifier until the end of his turn.
Cunning Resistance (Ex): As an immediate action, this rogue gains a circumstance bonus to saving throws equal to her Intelligence modifier until the beginning of her next turn. Activating this ability costs 1 point from her cunning pool.
Deadly Strike (Ex): A rogue with this talent has learned to make his strikes count and his luck work for him. As an immediate action after rolling damage for an attack that dealt sneak attack damage, he may spend 1 cunning to reroll all the damage dice for that attack. He must take this second roll, even if it is lower than the first.
Defensive Focus (Ex): When fighting defensively, a rogue with this talent gains an additional +1 dodge bonus to AC. When using the total defense action, he gains an additional +2 dodge bonus to AC. When using the Combat Expertise feat, he increases the dodge bonus granted by that feat by 50%, to a minimum of a +1 increase.
Extraordinary Cunning (Ex): Rogues with this talent increase their maximum and daily starting cunning by 1.
Extraordinary Reflexes (Ex): A rogue with this talent may make a number of additional attacks of opportunity in a round equal to his Intelligence bonus. These additional attacks stack with those granted by Combat Reflexes.
Find Weakness (Ex): A rogue with this talent has learned to study his opponents, allowing him to strike where they are weakest. Activating this ability is a standard action that costs 1 cunning. The rogue chooses a creature within 30' he can see and that does not have concealment or total concealment against him, and chooses one of the following bonus types: armor, circumstance, cover, deflection, dodge, insight, natural armor, profane, sacred, shield, or size. The rogue makes a Perception or Sense Motive check against the target' creature's CMD. If successful, his attacks and combat maneuvers ignore any AC bonus of the selected type that the target has for 1d4+1 rounds. In order to select this talent, the rogue must have skill focus or skill adept in either Perception or Sense Motive.
Fleet Escape (Ex): For some rogues, running away from pursuers is a smarter option than staying to fight. This character is practiced at escaping from foes, and knows the best way to avoid just about any obstacle while moving quickly. The rogue gains a +4 bonus on all rolls to navigate obstacles during a chase.
Flurry of Steel (Ex): When making a full attack, a rogue with this talent may spend 1 point of cunning to gain an extra attack with one of his weapons at his highest attack bonus. All attacks the rogue makes this turn suffer a -2 penalty. This ability does not stack with itself, or other effects that grant an extra attack, such as haste.
Greater Maneuver (Ex): A rogue with this talent gains one of the following feats, chosen when this talent is taken: Greater Dirty Trick, Greater Disarm, Greater Feint, Greater Reposition, Greater Steal, or Greater Trip. In order to select one of these feats, the rogue must have the equivalent improved maneuver feat (Improved Disarm to select Greater Disarm, for example). A rogue must be at least 6th level to select this talent.
Improved Maneuver (Ex): A rogue with this talent gains one of the following feats, chosen when this talent is taken: Improved Dirty Trick, Improved Disarm, Improved Feint, Improved Reposition, Improved Steal, or Improved Trip. He does not have to fulfill the prerequisites to select this feat.
Improved Sniper's Eye (Ex): When this rogue uses the aim action from the Sniper's Eye talent, he may deal sneak attack damage and ignore concealment at a range of up to 90', instead of 60'. A rogue must have the Sniper's Eye talent to select this ability.
Ki Breakthrough (Ex): You have learned to meld your understanding of ki with your rogue cunning. Your rogue levels stack with levels in the class that grants the ki pool ability to determine your maximum ki pool. You may use your Intelligence modifier instead of the ability score used by the other class to determine the number of ki points in your ki pool if you choose, though that choice must be made when this talent is gained. You must have the ki pool ability from another class to select this talent.
Light Steps (Ex): A rogue with this talent has learned to move while barely touching the surface she is crossing. As a full-round action, she can move up to twice her speed, ignoring difficult terrain. While moving in this way, any surface will support her, no matter how much she weighs. This allows her to cross water, lava, or even the thinnest tree branches. Movement made this way leaves no tracks. She must end her move on a surface that can support her normally. She cannot move across air in this way, nor can she walk up walls or other vertical surfaces. When moving in this way, she does not take damage from surfaces or hazards that react to being touched, such as lava or caltrops, nor does she need to make Acrobatics checks to avoid falling on slippery or rough surfaces. Finally, when using light steps, the rogue ignores any mechanical traps that use a location-based trigger. The rogue must have at least 1 cunning in his pool to use this ability.
Low-Light Vision (Ex): A rogue with this talent has improved his ability to see in the dark. He gains low-light vision, as the racial ability of the same name.
Many Faces (Su): A rogue with this talent has learned to magically alter his features. As a standard action that costs 1 cunning, he may cast disguise self with a duration of one minute per level. He must have the minor magic or shadow magic talent to select this ability.
No Trace (Ex): This rogue has learned to minimize the tracks he leaves behind. The DC of all Survival checks made to track him increases by his rogue level. If he moves at half speed, the rogue can apply this modifier to the tracks of a group of individuals nearby, up to one additional person per level.
Poison Resistance (Ex): A rogue with this talent gains a +2 bonus on all saves against poison. At 5th level, this bonus increases to +4. At 8th level, it increases to +6.
Poison Use (Ex): A rogue with this talent cannot accidentally poison herself when applying poison to a weapon.
Quick Footwork (Ex): As a swift action, the rogue may spend 1 point of cunning to take a 5-foot step, even if he has already moved or taken a 5-foot step this turn. Using this ability does not prevent the rogue from taking a move action later in the turn. Otherwise, this movement follows all the normal rules for a 5-foot step.
Quick Glance (Ex): A rogue with this talent can notice things with just a glance. It is a swift action for him to examine an area in detail or search for stimulus with the Perception skill, rather than a move action.
Quick Reaction (Ex): A rogue with this talent may spend 1 point cunning at the beginning of his turn on a surprise round to take both a move action and a standard action, rather than just a standard action, as is normally allowed in a surprise round.
Scentbreaker Bomb (Ex): A rogue with this talent has learned to mix in noxious chemicals into his bombs that interfere with the scent ability. Any creature with the scent ability that enters a rogue's smoke cloud must make a Fortitude save or become sickened for one round and lose the benefit of the scent ability for one hour. If it succeeds at the save, the creature loses scent for one minute. A rogue must have the smoke bomb talent to select this ability.
Scrounger (Ex): A rogue with this talent has learned to survive in the toughest environments and with improvised or broken tools. He may add his Intelligence modifier to Survival checks, in addition to his Wisdom modifier. He reduces all penalties he would take from not having appropriate tools on a skill check by half, rounded down. As a swift action that costs 1 cunning, he may treat an item with the broken condition as though it were not broken for one minute per level.
Secretive (Su): This rogue has gained magical assistance in protecting himself from divinations, perhaps through a little-known ritual or a pact with otherworldly beings. He gains spell resistance 10 + his level against any spells or effects of the divination school. This applies whenever a divination effect would provide information about him, even if the spell is not normally subject to spell resistance (such as the divination spell or contact other plane). Additionally, the DC of all Diplomacy checks made to gather information about this rogue increase by his rogue level.
Shadow Magic (Su): A rogue with this talent has started to learn the mysterious rogue art of shadow magic. As a swift action, he may spend 1 cunning to become invisible, as the spell, for up to one round per level.
Silent Takedown (Ex): A rogue with this talent has learned to muffle the sounds of a surprise attack. If he spends 1 cunning when making an attack during a surprise round and reduces the target to 0 hit points or fewer, he may make a Stealth check opposed by the Perception check of nearby enemies that do not have line of sight to him. If he succeeds, the target was eliminated quietly and nearby enemies are not alerted. If he fails the Stealth check or does not eliminate the target in one round, the rogue makes enough noise that nearby enemies are alerted to the sounds of combat as normal.
Skill Adept (Ex): When a rogue chooses this talent, he selects a class skill. Whenever a roll for that skill is made he may spend 1 point of cunning to roll two dice and take the better result. A rogue may select this talent multiple times, selecting a different skill each time. A rogue must be at least 4th level to select this talent.
Skill Focus (Ex): When a rogue selects this talent, he gains the Skill Focus feat in any one class skill. A rogue may select this talent multiple times, choosing a different skill each time.
Skill Training (Ex): When a rogue selects this talent, he selects two skills that are not currently class skills. They become class skills for the rogue. This talent may be taken more than once, selecting two new class skills each time.
Sticky Poison (Ex): When the rogue applies poison to a weapon, he may spend 1 point of cunning as part of the action of applying the poison. The weapon remains poisoned for a number of strikes equal to the rogue's Intelligence modifier. A rogue must be at least 6th level and have the poison use talent to select this ability.
Strike at Weakness (Ex): Any opponent within reach that rolls a natural 1 on an attack roll provokes an attack of opportunity from this rogue.
Team Player (Ex): As a swift action, the rogue may choose an ally within line of sight that possesses at least one teamwork feat. For one minute, the rogue gains the benefits of a single teamwork feat that ally has, chosen when this ability is used. He may only gain one feat at a time when using this ability. Activating this ability costs 1 point of cunning.
Trapfinding (Ex): This functions as the rogue class ability of the same name. Selecting this talent allows rogues with an archetype that trades it out access to this rogue ability.
Trapsmith (Ex): A rogue with this talent is trained at creating improvised traps. Select one extraordinary ranger trap. He may set this trap as a ranger, except the DC for the trap is 10 + 1/2 his rogue level + his Intelligence modifier - 2 (because of the extraordinary trap penalty). Creating this trap is a full-round action that provokes an attack of opportunity, and costs 1 cunning. A rogue must have the trapfinding special ability to select this talent.
Special: A rogue with the major magic talent or any spellcasting ability may select and create supernatural traps. A rogue may take this talent more than once, gaining a new trap known each time.
Two-Weapon Adept (Ex): While he has at least 1 point of cunning, this rogue reduces the penalty for fighting with two weapons or a double weapon by 1, on both his primary and off-hand weapons. A rogue must be at least 6th level and have the Two-Weapon Fighting feat to select this talent.
Vicious Ambush (Ex): This rogue has learned to attack from surprise with astonishing speed, catching his targets unawares. When performing a full attack action from stealth or invisibility against a target that would be denied its Dexterity bonus against the rogue's first attack, the target is denied its Dexterity bonus to AC against one additional attack. Activating this ability is a swift action that costs 1 point of cunning.
Amazing Reactions (Ex): When using the quick reaction talent, this rogue may act normally in a surprise round - he is not limited to a standard action and a move action. A rogue must have the quick reaction talent to select this ability. This is an advanced talent.
Bloody Mess (Ex): When a rogue with this talent deals sneak attack damage to a target that is already bleeding from the effects of the bleeding attack talent, the target's bleed damage increases by 2 points per round, to a maximum of this rogue's level. The Heal check to end this bleed effect has its DC increased by the amount of bleed damage the target is taking each round. Additionally, if the target is reduced to 0 hit points or less while suffering from bleed damage, this rogue regains a point of cunning. A rogue must have the bleeding attack talent to select this ability. This is an advanced talent.
Doublestrike (Ex): As part of an attack action, a rogue with this advanced talent may spend 1 cunning to make one melee attack with her primary weapon and one melee attack with her off-hand weapon with her full base attack bonus. She suffers the normal penalties for two-weapon fighting when using this ability.
Heart of Lies (Su): Whenever a rogue with this talent succeeds at a saving throw against a divination spell, or someone fails to penetrate his spell resistance from the secretive talent, he is immediately aware of this, and may attempt to provide false information. The caster must make a caster level check with a DC of 1d20 + the rogue's level + his Intelligence modifier. If the check fails, the false information is provided. If the check succeeds, no information is provided. Activating this ability is an immediate action that costs 1 cunning. A rogue must have the secretive talent before selecting this advanced talent.
Between charisma, intelligence and wisdom, wisdom easily has the fewest skills that key off it, the most notable of which for a rogue are perception and sense motive. The increase in the rogue's will save is welcome, but hardly makes intelligence and charisma forgettable.
My objections to the Wisdom archetype aren't mechanical, they're conceptual. I can't think of any characters I'd call a rogue that were wisdom-focused. The closest I can think of would be Indiana Jones, and he'd likely be a cunning rogue with his focus on knowledge and history, along with his quick thinking in a crisis situation. Quick thinking is an Intelligence trait to me, not Wisdom.
As a conceptual experiment, here's how I'd stat up a nasty ranged assassin rogue using this class. He's a forlorn elf who grew up an orphan, and learned to mix his natural agility and archery with a love of the city's rooftops, where he can be by himself. He doesn't break into his target's home if he can help it - he just waits until the target gets out in the open where he can draw a bead on them, and then eliminates them from a rooftop, then disappears into the city's rooftops or leads pursuers on a merry chase before ducking out of hiding and sniping them as they look for him.
Elf Rogue 12
Elf - Silent Hunter racial trait replaces Elven Magic
Str 16 (base 14, +2 from belt)
Dex 22 (base 15, +2 racial, +3 from levels, +2 from belt)
Con 10 (base 12, -2 racial)
Int 16 (base 13, +2 racial, +1 level)
Wis 10
Cha 8
Trait - Forlorn (+1 to Fortitudes saves)
Trait - Poverty-Striken (+1 to Survival, Survival is always a class skill)
12th Level Rogue Powers
Roof Runner Archetype
Sneak attack +6d6, roof running, cunning pool (3), evasion, rogue talents (4), tumbling descent, uncanny dodge, improved uncanny dodge, advanced talents (2)
Feats and Talents
Char1: Point Blank Shot
Rogue2: Combat Trick (Precise Shot)
Char3: Deadly Aim
Rogue4: Sniper's Eye
Char5: Weapon Focus (Composite Shortbow)
Rogue6: Stealthy Sniper
Char7: Rapid Shot
Rogue8: Snap Shot
Char9: Extra Rogue Talent (Quick Reaction)
Rogue10: Assassinate
Char11: Ability Focus (Assassinate)
Rogue12: Improved Sniper's Eye
Skills maxed out would be... 12 ranks in, say...
Acrobatics +18
Bluff (for distractions) +11
Climb +15
Craft (Bowyer/Fletcher) +15
Disable Device +18
Escape Artist +18
Knowledge (Local) +15
Perception +14
Stealth +23
Survival +12
Plus a smattering of other skills that make sense.
+2 mighty (+3) seeking composite shortbow
Masterwork short sword
Various arrows (handful of +1 human bane arrows, silver, cold iron, bludgeoning, etc)
+1 studded leather armor
Cloak of Elvenkind (+5 to Stealth)
+2 belt of physical might (+2 Str, +2 Dex)
2 potions of see invisibility
THE HIT
Stealthily moves around to keep target in view for a round while studying the target for assassinate. Stealth check is +23. During the surprise round, the rogue uses Snap Shot to get a 26 initiative and spends a point of cunning to use Quick Reactions, giving him both a move action and a standard action. For his move action, he uses Improved Sniper's Eye to aim at his target, increasing the range at which he can sneak attack to 90'. For his standard action he fires an arrow at the target. His attack roll is +18 and ignores all miss chances, and a hit deals 1d6+5+6d6 piercing damage (avg 29.5 dmg), and the target must make a DC 21 Fortitude save or die. The sniper uses the Stealth skill to remain hidden, with a +13 Stealth roll due to Stealthy Sniper. He has spent all three cunning he has in one round.
That doesn't seem too powerful to me, honestly. A 12th level spellcaster could do much worse, and wouldn't have spent nearly as much effort to do it.
I've been busy, but was hoping to be able to respond bit-by-bit during the downtime at work today!
For recovering Cunning through skill use, you could leave it up to the GM and then list several typical examples where a point would be awarded. Examples may include: exceptional success with a skill, using a skill to advance the plot, using a skill in a creative way.
This method is subjective, so it relies on us trusting the GM to be fair. But that applies to all aspects of a role playing game.
not-necessarily-in-combat recovery method: I think the "do cool stuff" optional grit-recovery mechanic might be best. It's almost painful to leave a main class feature to GM's mercy, but I'm not seeing many other options that couldn't be exploited. THAT method has the issue that many of the out-of-combat talents let you do the cool stuff more easily, meaning you aren't in as much danger. You could give them a choice for how to do it. For example, burglary, pickpocketry, stealthy assassinations, shake-downs, etc. Roughly analogous to the various archetypical rogue activities. These would all be keyed off of your levels in rogues. So, to get a point of cunning back with the pickpocket method, you'd have to steal, say, 50 * level worth of GP. You only get one method, but perhaps could choose more with the rogue talents. the problem here is that this would be fine if WBL was linear...but it's not. One popular method for this sort of thing is to make it based off the HD or CR of the foe. So some abilities give you a bonus if you kill a worthy opponent, and a worthy opponent is anyone whose HD are at least your HD minus 4 or greater. So, whenever your burglarize a house whose CR (as an example) is 6, and you're level 8, you'd get the cunning back. Of course, this is may just slow the game down a ton, and wouldn't work so well in non-urban environments...but at this point, I'm just throwing ingrediants at a wall and seeing what comes out.
Under/over-costed abilities: I had thought that you took the same ki points and used them as the cunning point values. I don't recall any off the top of my head, but it's been a few days.
Weapon Finesse: As an experiment, I've actually given weapon finesse to everyone for free at first level. My issues with giving it as a free feat to the rogue is that while it does allow them to make the Dex rogue more easily, I feel it gets the reader into the mindset of a dex rogue. And I strongly believe that the rogue is and should remain the versatility-of-concept class rather than shoehorned into one type.
Positioning Attack: ...so it is. I thought that one was a 5' step or two. I think once-per-day mechanic of the original one is what balances it. If they can do it more often...I don't know. 30' is to help them get around big creatures, or do other movement based shenanigans. Cutting the movement goes against this idea. So, I don't know.
Sniper's Eye: I think I mentioned why I didn't like this one below. It's the "not fun" factor of a NPC doing it (and as far as I can tell, that's literally the reason for the 30' limitation. To make sure you can see them more easily.)
Weapon Snatcher: Disarm is one of those maneuvers that when it works well, it makes encounters trivially easy. Or at least parts of them. I think they made the right call on this one. Now, Steal combat maneuver on the other hand...
Master of Disguise: There's a certain disconnect between magic users not able to use it with their powerful spells, but a rogue is able to. It's weird.
Hard To Fool: wtf paizo
Acrobatic Maneuver: I see that was changed below, so skipping.
Bully: Da'ath did a playtest based on my sneak attack replacement where instead of giving +2 damage per 2 levels, they can do half sneak attack versus those with some conditions (and full against they're flanking or who are flat-footed). He says it went fine, I still think that's a wee bit much damage. But half-SA against [fear]'d guys is better than full! Or full-SA once per round.
skipping a few...
Trapsmith: I'm loath to suggest a second pool to keep track of. Perhaps a free one once per day, and then 1 cunning for the later ones. It occurs to me that this might be a good way to get cunning points back. Using traps is quite cunning, and with the full-round set up time...perhaps if a worthy opponent sets one off that you set recently (hour, 8 hours, last day, who knows), you can get a cunning point back. Just a thought (and haven't thought it through).
Vicious Ambush: The issue with basing things off other media is that other media doesn't need to make sure that one guy is outshining the rest. Making it cost 2 points is probably a good solution if you want to keep it. You could also do some thing where the next few attacks are against the normal AC, but still inflict sneak attack, but that's clunky.
----
I probably won't be doing as large a critique on the new version, but I'll at least try to read through it later.
Pardon me, but does Vicious Ambush even does anything? I mean, if the target lost his dex to AC because you were in stealth or invisible, he doesn't recover it in the middle of your action, he takes the full attack and then he gets his dex back to AC at the end of your turn. Or at least that is the way I've always interpreted it. Can anyone point me where it says otherwise?
Bully: Da'ath did a playtest based on my sneak attack replacement where instead of giving +2 damage per 2 levels, they can do half sneak attack versus those with some conditions (and full against they're flanking or who are flat-footed). He says it went fine, I still think that's a wee bit much damage.
It's currently the favorite talent of everyone (in my gaming group) who plays rogues, as well (which is usually a "warning sign"). I think I have it currently limited to the effects one can accomplish with "Dirty Trick" + bleeding (the only real "nerf" I've done to it since our last playtest of it).
Pardon me, but does Vicious Ambush even does anything? I mean, if the target lost his dex to AC because you were in stealth or invisible, he doesn't recover it in the middle of your action, he takes the full attack and then he gets his dex back to AC at the end of your turn. Or at least that is the way I've always interpreted it. Can anyone point me where it says otherwise?
Once you attack, you are no longer invisible or stealthed. They see where you are, and can then react.
Pardon me, but does Vicious Ambush even does anything? I mean, if the target lost his dex to AC because you were in stealth or invisible, he doesn't recover it in the middle of your action, he takes the full attack and then he gets his dex back to AC at the end of your turn. Or at least that is the way I've always interpreted it. Can anyone point me where it says otherwise?Once you attack, you are no longer invisible or stealthed. They see where you are, and can then react.
But they don't get their dex to AC back until your turn ends. No debuff works that way.
If it's otherwise, please point to me where it says so. I want to know if it's a paragraph I don't remember or an errata that I missed.
I'm not finding the developer post that clarified it for me, but that's the point of it - you are only supposed to get sneak attack on the first attack after attacking from stealth or invisibility. That's why invisibility says first attack, not action or anything else - it uses the singular 'attack'.
Really? Huh.
Then Vicious Ambush is a great talent.
Sorry about the necro. I really liked this revision when I saw it. And now probably we will playtest it in a Rise of the Runelords campaign (if any of the players is interested in using a rogue). For the while I'm just translating it to the player's who can't read english (brazilian here), but come to this:
Amazing Reactions: What is the point of this talent? I mean, Quick Reactions already let you take standard + move actions, isn't it the same as a full-round action? Or it isn't, and with Amazing Reactions I could do a full-attack action or take a swift action too? If is that, is a advanced talent really needed for this?
A standard and a move is not the same as a full action. Quick Reactions doesn't let you full attack, for example. Amazing Reaction does. That's why they're separate.
Rogues get a lot out of a full attack in the surprise round, generally. They usually have high Dex scores, and Improved Initiative is a relatively common rogue feat. If they beat someone on initiative they can get sneak attack almost all the time, since their opponent is going to be flat-footed, and a full attack of sneak attack can bring the hurt very effectively. That's why I made Amazing Reactions an advanced talent.
To the best of my knowledge, the only other way to get a full action on a surprise round is the Lookout teamwork feat, which is one of the best teamwork feats. That means that two people in the group have to have it (or one inquisitor).\
I don't think it would super broken to give the benefits of Amazing Reactions to Quick Reactions, but you would notice that rogues (particularly archer rogues) kill things a lot more effectively if they ambush someone.
Thanks for the reply. I'm not thinking to merge Amazing Reactions into Quick Reactions, but I think there's not so much benefit to make it an Advanced Talent.
You could make it a normal Talent with Quick Reactions as prerequisite, or make it cost no cunning and keep it as an Advanced Talent. You should note that probably only ranged rogues will ever take Amazing Reactions, as Quick Reactions provide almost all that a melee rogue need (aside some situations as starting the fight within <10 feet of the enemy, or if he wants to use a swift action). Watcha think?