rainzax |
thanks to Ciaran Barnes (and others) for the original idea.
Cunning (Ex):
Once per day, after rolling an attack roll, skill check, or saving throw, the rogue may immediately either re-roll or add in her Intelligence bonus (if any). She may not do both, and is bound to this altered result. At 3rd level, and again every three rogue levels, the rogue gains an additional use of this ability, to a maximum of 7 times per day at 18th level.
At the DM's option, a 1st-level rogue may key this ability instead to either Wisdom or Charisma. Once this choice has been made, it may not be changed later.
01- Sneak Attack, Trapfinding, Cunning 1/day
02- Evasion, Rogue Talents
03- Trap Sense, Cunning 2/day
04- Rogue Talent, Uncanny Dodge
05-
06- Rogue Talent, Cunning 3/day
07-
08- Rogue Talent, Improved Uncanny Dodge
09- Cunning 4/day
...
aside from it's simplicity, i see this as an elegant way to increase a typical rogue's number of skill ranks while at the same time fortifying their defenses/offenses. being able to retroactively add a certain amount to a saving throw or attack roll, even if it is technically a limited number of times, is practically similar to granting a like bonus to all such rolls. because often times the threshold of failure/success is vast rather than narrow - so being able to roll first, conduct an evaluation, and either intervene with the dice or not, will allow the rogue to be very conservative with this X/day ability, despite appearances. plus, i consider the ability very thematic for the rogue. beware what fate has in store when her luck finally runs out(!)...
Aelryinth RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16 |
I try very hard to stay away from adding +stats to anything when I make abilities. It's the easiest way to break a build. It's why I don't like dex to damage for finesse fighters, among other things.
But that's a personal preference.
The Cunning I use for the Rogue, like Resolve for the fighter, has several parts.
1) Add Cunning as damage to every attack with a finessable weapon as precision damage. If Sneak Attack is eligible, instead use d6's per point of Cunning.
--Which gets Rogues focused on finesse weapons, gets them a solid damage buff all the time, and preserves sneak attack.
2) Add a Skill point per level and a new class skill with every point of Cunning. (Note: The Rogue starts with Stealth, Perception, Bluff and Disable device, and 4 skills of his choice).
==The Rogue is the super Expert. At level 20, he will have more skill points then a wizard with a 36 Int, and AT LEAST 14 class skills of his choice. Take that!
3) Add his Cunning as a competence modifier on all skills he has maximum ranks in.
==Which is a gold saver, since most +Skill magic items are competence items. It also means that he is the equal of a bard with any skill the two of them share, like, oh, KNOWLEDGE skills.
And then start modding Rogue talents to work with skills and turn them into something awesome. Note that Skill feats for the rogue always add the skill as a class skill, so picking up new class skills is very easy...
==Aelryinth
rainzax |
added 10th level ability to re-roll opponent's dice
Cunning (Ex):
Rogues live on the edge, surviving by a combinations of uncanny instinct, quick wits, and sheer luck. Consequently, once per day the rogue may retroactively add her Intelligence bonus to or simply re-roll any d20 check. She may not do both, and is bound to the altered result, even if it is worse. This is a free action and may be used for reactive rolls (such as saving throws). At 3rd level, and again every three rogue levels, the rogue gains an additional daily use of cunning. This is an extraordinary ability.
At 10th level, a rogue may instead use this ability to subtract her Intelligence bonus from or force a re-roll of an opponent's d20 check which directly opposes her (such as an attack roll). This is an immediate action. If her opponent is also using cunning, the effects cancel each other out, and the original roll is kept unmodified.
As an optional rule, a 1st level rogue may choose another mental ability score (Wisdom or Charisma) to govern this ability (instead of Intelligence). Once this choice is made it cannot be altered.
Goth Guru |
Here's how I would use it.
Once per day, after rolling an attack roll, skill check, or saving throw, the rogue may immediately either re-roll or add in the relevant stat bonus (if any). She may not do both, and is bound to this altered result. At 3rd level, and again every three rogue levels, the rogue gains an additional use of this ability, to a maximum of 7 times per day at 18th level.
Thus if it's a reflex save, they can reroll or add again their dex. bonus.
As I would be allowing foe rogues to use this, I will not allow rogues to force enemy rerolls.
rainzax |
rogue is the original investigator
stat bonus
i am choosing to run with Intelligence because although the cunning ability is very broad, one very special function it has is shoring up a weakness of the rogue - defenses. specifically, saving throws. in effect, so long as the rogue has cunning, she has +INT to any saving throw. i think that part of the rogue's challenge is to accept that because they have weaker defenses compared to other classes, but more skill points and some offensive capabilities, that they must play their characters in such a way as to gain advantages against enemies to offset their relative weakness. that said, i think keeping a (limited) trick up their sleeve in case of emergency is a very thematic way of offering a boost to defenses without doing it outright (for example, changing Fortitude or Will to the good track). finally, as the stars must sometimes align for the rogue to obtain strategic advantages, having a re-roll mechanic will help them not to botch the final roll which has been painstakingly set up. so, there is a little bit of 'your best defense is a strong offense' baked in.
forcing re-rolls
this is powerful indeed. i guess i instilled two checks on it in attempt to balance it. the first is access - this ability is not available until 10th level. so, do you think this ability is too good even for a 10th level non-spellcasting character? the second is context - essentially, the rogue may only use this on rolls which are 'contested' or 'opposed' with her included - she can't counter a spell with it, but she can effectively raise her AC (sort of) by forcing her opponent to re-roll an attack. she can't interfere with rolls she is not a part of. so, bearing that in mind, is the ability still too good? what abuses are there?
cheers.
Da'ath |
That comment seems dismissive and without contribution. This is the homebrew forum, in case you missed the sign on the way in.
Seconded. There has been a lot of that, "if you don't like x, you can play y," crap going around lately.
Also, a lot of people pimping their product, i.e. "I already did this in <insert product link>, for the low price of <whatever>." You, know, because we all want to chuck our vision in the trash to pay for your product.
Both are cases of bad form and make me less likely to contribute to their requests for review; in the case of the second, it insures I'll never buy said product (or regret buying in the first place, regardless of usefulness).
Da'ath |
As an optional rule, a 1st level rogue may choose another mental ability score (Wisdom or Charisma) to govern this ability (instead of Intelligence). Once this choice is made it cannot be altered.
As a general rule, I don't like letting players sub in alternate stats for things, even for rogues who desperately need fixed. This isn't to say I haven't done so in the past, just that I don't care for it. While I like your idea, what I am asking is this: does this method enforce the expectation of your players to do similarly with other classes and as a result, caused other unforeseen/unintended synergy issues?
rainzax |
1 person marked this as a favorite. |
where i don't want to create that expectation, i do want the rogue chassis to be flexible. Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma all govern a very different set of skills, and i think it'd be nice to be able to play a rogue whose skill choice can be meaningfully backed up by raising the proper mental stat in a way that offers incentives within the mechanics to do so.
check out this guy's rogue. he solves the quandary by offering the Cunning-CHA option as sort of an archetype by renaming the pool to Panache.
Da'ath |
Thanks. Your text and the link explain the idea pretty well. While I'm lucky to have had the same gaming group of 8-9 players for the past 12+ years, I'm unfortunate in that they're all really good at making things work in ways I never considered. You might say this is one of those topics I'm over-cautious with.
Ciaran Barnes |
forcing re-rolls
this is powerful indeed. i guess i instilled two checks on it in attempt to balance it. the first is access - this ability is not available until 10th level. so, do you think this ability is too good even for a 10th level non-spellcasting character? the second is context - essentially, the rogue may only use this on rolls which are 'contested' or 'opposed' with her included - she can't counter a spell with it, but she can effectively raise her AC (sort of) by forcing her opponent to re-roll an attack. she can't interfere with rolls she is not a part of. so, bearing that in mind, is the ability still too good? what abuses are there?
Too good? No, I wouldn't say that. Just presenting an alternative if it is needed or wanted. The cunning class feature could be supported by multiple rogue talents.
Bandw2 |
That comment seems dismissive and without contribution. This is the homebrew forum, in case you missed the sign on the way in.
that's because cunning has the same end goal of inspiration, which I think is better done. So, in essence I believe that this notion should be dismissed as I find cunning to have no meaningful contribution.
I think Rogue should officially be buried as it doesn't offer much, if anything, anymore. trying to fix it is simply trying to meek out an existence between the investigator and the slayer, i'm honestly happy that they made the investigator and the slayer as their roles are more clear cut than the rogue and thus give a more congealed and synergistic use.
also, it's here, free of charge, so don't get all "buy this" with my Da'ath.
Goth Guru |
3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Ciaran Barnes wrote:That comment seems dismissive and without contribution. This is the homebrew forum, in case you missed the sign on the way in.that's because cunning has the same end goal of inspiration, which I think is better done. So, in essence I believe that this notion should be dismissed as I find cunning to have no meaningful contribution.
I think Rogue should officially be buried as it doesn't offer much, if anything, anymore. trying to fix it is simply trying to meek out an existence between the investigator and the slayer, i'm honestly happy that they made the investigator and the slayer as their roles are more clear cut than the rogue and thus give a more congealed and synergistic use.
also, it's here, free of charge, so don't get all "buy this" with my Da'ath.
1. I disagree that the rogue is obsolete. It's an important element in fantasy and if the Rogue sucks only at combat, then pathfinder needs more non combat development. Also, Robin Hood and Captain Jack Sparrow are both good at combat in their generas.
2. You've stated why you dislike the entire point of this topic, so you should just hide the topic from yourself so you don't have to keep defending your position.Da'ath |
Well said, Goth. I know better than to do anything but ignore that sort of behavior, but I always manage to bite at least once when someone goes fishing.
Overall, I think I like the idea of "cunning". Frankly, I don't see it as terribly powerful, but certainly useful. It reminds me of an SWSE talent tree or two (misfortune and fortune).
RedDogMT |
...I disagree that the rogue is obsolete. It's an important element in fantasy and if the Rogue sucks only at combat, then pathfinder needs more non combat development. Also, Robin Hood and Captain Jack Sparrow are both good at combat in their genres.
This, I think, is what many Pathfinder/D&D players overlook. They think that if a class is not super-effective in combat, then it must be a subpar class.
To make any class 'work' it is up to both the player and GM to be on the same page. A rogue is not as good if the GM does not give the character places to hide, traps to thwart, and pilfering to do....and the rogue is not as good if the players does not look for shadows to use, search for traps, or try to pick a pocket...
Ciaran Barnes |
I think Rogue should officially be buried as it doesn't offer much, if anything, anymore.
I will add that what you said in this quote is obviously believed by many on these forums, and there is a pile of evidence to support the opinion. However, keep in mind that for most who post homebrew, the purpose is not so much to fix something as it is because we have fun writing homebrew and want to share it.
rainzax |
Overall, I think I like the idea of "cunning". Frankly, I don't see it as terribly powerful...
i couldn't disagree with you more. being able to re-roll (or retroactively add in a stat bonus!) on essentially any die roll is pretty amazing. and Cunning as written above allows either!
speaking specifically to the retroactive adding, most failed attacks/saves/skills are not missed by a narrow margin - more often than not they are clear successes or failures (certainly to a seasoned gamer!) and so adding +2 or +4 has no actual effect on the outcome (because the difference between success and failure exceeds 2 or 4) - therefore at times when the difference between success and failure is narrow (especially if the risk is high - like saving throws), this ability bridges that gap. in effect, Cunning is functionally similar to adding +INT to all saving throws (ie functionally similar to Divine Grace).
at least, that is how i see it.
this is why it is important to strictly restrict it's use - not having it be as plentiful as Grit or even Ki - hence, the 1/3x+1 model.
rainzax |
a vast gulf separates 'reactive' and 'retroactive' - with the latter being a more meaningful use of the ability nearly every time, rather than a mere shot in the dark.
i would even weigh the 'extra' feat more greatly:
Extra Cunning (new feat)
Prerequisite: Cunning 2/day
Benefit: You gain an additional daily use of your cunning ability
Special: You may take this feat multiple times
rainzax |
How about the thieves guildmaster uses cunning on his use magic device to operate a wand of fireballs. Then he uses cunning to ruin the party's best fighter's saving throw.
even better: thieves guildmaster, a 10th level cunning rogue (who switched the ability to be based on CHA at level 1 and has a CHA of 20 by level 10) uses skill mastery to eliminate failure with a wand of baleful polymorph, and uses his cunning against the party's best fighter to either bestow a -5 to his saving throw (CHA 20) or to force him to re-roll the dice.
you know what, now that i say that, it is unclear what information the cunning rogue gets before she decides to declare a re-roll: (1) just the fact that a dice was rolled, (2) what the number on the dice was, or (3) what the result will be before meddling?
in the case of 2, is the DM willing to render transparent his/her die rolls to the cunning rogue (as they pertain to her)?
Ciaran Barnes |
it is unclear what information the cunning rogue gets before she decides to declare a re-roll: (1) just the fact that a dice was rolled, (2) what the number on the dice was, or (3) what the result will be before meddling?in the case of 2, is the DM willing to render transparent his/her die rolls to the cunning rogue (as they pertain to her)?
The intent of the lower level version is that the rogue sees her own d20 roll and decides that it needs to be higher. The higher level version that affects someone else's roll could use clarification though.
rainzax |
1 person marked this as a favorite. |
right. does the 10th level cunning rogue suddenly have the privilege to keep one eye behind the DM screen or to question every roll the DM makes "in case I might use my cunning ability"? fun-killer right there!
maybe the 10th level function simply imposes a worst-of-two roll, obviating any need for prior knowledge?:
Cunning (new):
Rogues live on the edge, surviving by a combinations of uncanny instinct, quick wits, and sheer luck. Once per day, after rolling an attack roll, skill check, or saving throw, the rogue may immediately either re-roll it or add in her Intelligence bonus (if any). She may not do both, and is bound to this altered result. At 3rd level, and again every three rogue levels, the rogue gains an additional use of this ability, to a maximum of 7 times per day at 18th level.
At 10th level, a rogue may instead use this ability to force an opponent's attack roll, skill check, or saving throw to be rolled twice with the lowest result taken. This is an immediate action, and may only be used on rolls which are directly opposed by the rogue herself. If her opponent is also using cunning, the effects cancel each other out, and the original roll is kept unmodified.
As an optional rule, a 1st level rogue may choose another mental ability score (Wisdom or Charisma) to govern this ability, instead of Intelligence. Once this choice is made it cannot be altered.
rainzax |
This is the version I will be using in my game. Got rid of the 10th level 'baleful' ability. Replaced it with a 1st-level static damage bonus and the ability to apply SA to a crit or induce multiplication under optimal circumstances. This all balanced by the fact that it's a powerful ability with extremely limited daily mileage. But, it'll turn any fail into a success, or any success into a super-success. heregoes:
Cunning (v 2.0):
Once per day, the rogue can cheat fate and alter the result of an attack roll, skill check, or saving throw she has just failed. She may either retroactively re-roll the die, or, may retroactively add in her +1 cunning bonus, treating this altered result as her final roll. She gains an additional daily use of this ability at 3rd level and every three rogue levels thereafter, and, her cunning bonus improves by +1 every odd rogue level after 1st, to a maximum of +10 at 19th level.
The expenditure of cunning is always an immediate action.
Finally, the rogue gains the following benefits when using a melee finesse weapon or a ranged weapon within point blank range (30 feet). She may add her cunning bonus to all damage rolls made with that weapon, but the bonus does not stack with sneak attack dice (if any). When the rogue scores a critical threat with such a weapon, she may expend a daily use of her cunning. If she does, and the confirmation roll succeeds, she may apply her sneak attack dice to the damage roll. If the attack was already a sneak attack, she may multiply the sneak attack dice by her weapon's critical modifier when calculating damage.
...
cheers.
rainzax |
After playtesting this cunning rogue, I realize I have been stingy with the uses-per-day, and also seek a different gameplay experience - specifically that of Cheating Lady Luck. I want the use of cunning to simulate gambling. Enter the a "grit" mechanic, modeled after the gunslinger, but synergizing with Sneak Attack and granting power over the dice:
Cunning: (version 3 - grit version)
Cunning is a fluctuating pool of points whose capacity is equal to 1 + the rogue’s Intelligence bonus (minimum 0), replenishing completely after a full nights rest. Additionally, the rogue may recover a single point whenever she defeats an opponent using her sneak attack ability, or, whenever she rolls a natural 20 on an opposed skill check (and succeeds). At the DMs option, she may also recover a single point by executing a clever scheme that involves a significant risk at the prospect of obtaining a great reward.
So long as the rogue retains at least one point in her pool, she is treated as having the Improved Initiative feat. When the rogue threatens a critical hit, she may expend a point of cunning before rolling to confirm. If the confirmation roll succeeds, she may add her sneak attack dice to the damage roll. If the attack already qualified as a sneak attack, she may instead multiply her sneak attack dice when rolling for damage (breaching the normal restriction against doing so).
The expenditure of cunning is always an immediate action.
At 3rd level, the rogue may expend a point of cunning to re-roll one attack roll, saving throw, or skill check. She must do so before knowing the outcome, and is bound to the second result, even if it is lower.
At 7th level, the rogue may expend a point of cunning to declare a single attack to be resolved as if it were a sneak attack. The decision to do so must be made prior to rolling.
At 11th level, when the rogue uses cunning to re-roll a die, if the second result is higher than the first result, she does not expend the point of cunning for doing so.
At 15th level, the rogue may expend a point of cunning to declare a single attack to be resolved as if her foe had no immunity to precision damage. The decision to do so must be made prior to rolling.
At 19th level, when the rogue uses cunning to re-roll a die, and the second result is higher than the first result, she may either keep the point of cunning, or expend it to treat the die roll as a result of 20.
Cunning is considered a form or Grit or Panache. At the DMs option, when the rogue first gains this ability, she may choose either Wisdom (Grit) or Charisma (Panache) as the governing stat.
...
I am specifically looking for feedback on recovery methods and the sneak attack synergy mechanics. cheers!
Ciaran Barnes |
If the pool size is 1 + ability bonus, then the minimum is automatically 1.
I like the recovery method, but opposed skill check (or opposed rolls of any kind) are not defined in game, so you should probablyy reword it to something like "The rogue regains 1 point when she reduces any enemy to zero hit points with a sneak attack and when she rolls a natural 20 on a skill check that is opposed by another creature's skill check. For example, if she uses Stealth to hide from an enemy, her Stealth check is opposed by the enemy's Perception check. Also include something in here about the maximum size of the pool. I might just go straight to Grit or Panache and copy and paste what you need.
I'm not so keen on the second paragraph. Lots of ifs in there. What if you changed it to something like "As long as a rogue has at least 1 point of Cunning remaining in her pool, she gains a +2 bonus to initiative checks. When she succeeds on an attack, she can spend 1 point to gain a bonus to the damage roll equal to her Intelligence modifier + her level."
rainzax |
Pool size (1+mod) as opposed to size (mod; minimum 1) rewards a "12" in the governing stat and completely discourages dumping lower than 10. Since the player can provisionally choose their mental stat, there is still diversity of concept.
I will consider using your language to amend the recovery description.
As far as "ifs" are concerned, I quite like the mechanic as I feel it simulates gambling. I want the rogue to spend the point before she knows the outcome, rather than after, introducing a risk/reward factor. Same goes for the higher level abilities. If you can think of a better way to word it without changing that dynamic, I am interested in hearing. Also, the point of the level 1 abilities is to synergize with Sneak Attack (+4 to initiative, +SA on a crit). Is there a specific reason you advise against granting the Improved Initiative feat vs a raw bonus?
rainzax |
Ok I think I'm married to this version.
It's just 3 abilities designed to stay relevant from 1-20.
Improved Initiative, Critical Roulette, and Lady Luck. The last to introduce risk/reward into dice.
Cunning (version 3.5):
Cunning is a fluctuating measure of a rogue’s uncanny luck and sheer prowess; a daily pool with a maximum point capacity equal to 1 + her Intelligence bonus. The rogue recovers a single point whenever she drops one of her foes by inflicting sneak attack damage, or, whenever she succeeds on an opposed skill check by rolling a natural 20. She may also recover cunning points by executing a clever scheme that involves a significant risk at the prospect of obtaining a great reward, subject to the DM’s approval.
Improved Initiative:
While the rogue retains one or more points in her pool, she is considered as having the Improved Initiative feat.
Critical Roulette:
When the rogue threatens a critical hit, she may expend a single point of cunning before rolling to confirm. If the confirmation roll succeeds, she may immediately turn the attack into a sneak attack. If the attack already qualified as a sneak attack, she may multiply her sneak attack dice by her critical multiplier when rolling for damage (breaching the normal restriction against doing so).
Lady Luck:
The rogue may expend 1 point of cunning to re-roll a single attack roll, saving throw, or skill check. She is bound to the second result. If the rogue rolls higher than the initial roll, she gains an additional +2 luck bonus to the check, and keeps her point of cunning. If she rolls a natural 1, the rogue goes bust, and loses all remaining cunning points in her pool.
At 5th level, the rogue may similarly gamble 2 points of cunning, potentially yielding a +4 luck bonus. At 9th level, the rogue may gamble 3 points of cunning for a +6 luck bonus. At 13th level, she may gamble 4 points for a +8 bonus. And at 17th level, she may gamble 5 points for a +10 bonus. Furthermore, at each of these level increases, her total pool capacity permanently expands by one point.
The expenditure of cunning is always an immediate action.
Cunning is considered a form or Grit or Panache; multiple pools overlap instead of stacking. Upon first gaining this ability, the rogue may instead choose Wisdom or Charisma as the governing ability score.
...
cheers.