So a DM i just started playing with lets players use Diplomacy on each other to solve arguments. When I experienced this in my first game with her i was pretty shocked. After the game i talked with her about how openly broken it was. During the campaign I was forced to leave my mother to die because one of my companions Succeeded in a Diplomacy check against me where i fumbled. I was then basically told that because of this success i didnt want to save my mother anymore and left her to get eaten by giants as we escaped.
Well long story short my DM disagreed with me even though i told her even the core says that we should do that and just to role play it out.
Pretty sure my deceased mother doesnt agree so to prove my point and honor her memory Im making a maxed out Diplomacy character for our next campaign and Im pretty much going to make the entire party my minions.
I have some pretty good Ideas so far but im interested to hear opinions from others. This is what i have so far. http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=674035
If you want to just see a summery without having to look on the sheet here it is.
Character Name: Diplomacy Dude
Race: Half-Elf
Class: Wizard
Level: 1
Charisma: Base 18 and +2 from race to make it 20(+5 modifier total)
Adaptability(Racial Trait): Skill Focus in Diplomacy to make it trained and +3
Diplomacy Skill Ranks: 1 rank and another +3 for being trained
Wizard School(Enchantment): +2 to all Bluff and Diplomacy Checks
Wizard Familiar: Thrush gives +3 to all Diplomacy Checks
Feat(Additional Trait): Gives 2 traits
Trait(Illuminator): +2 to Diplomacy Checks
Trait(Inspired): Once per day, as a free action, you may roll twice on skill or ability checks and take the better result.
Total Diplomacy: +19
Also Hoping to get the spells Eagles Splendor and Charm Person as well as the Persuasive Feat when i hit level3 for another +4 to my checks and -5 to theirs.
Any Tips?
Since you are taking Additional Trait, you have 4 traits, correct? Or is taking the feat the only way your GM allows traits? Since you could have more traits, you have possible bonuses there. Not a direct bonus to the roll, since the traits wouldn't stack, but for example
Calculated Bribe (Social) no bonus, but allows Diplomacy rerolls
Gregarious (Social) grants reroll
Memorable (Social) no bonus, but Diplomacy effects last longer
You would have to pick one since they are all social traits.
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Well I wouldnt reccomend an arms race... I tend to say that the way your DM is applying diplomacy is arbitrary and cruel. It stops you from being your own character and there are a TON of threads of people here who are against that. Personally, I'm against any serious PVP to begin with.
So please, before going nuts, talk to your DM, explain how you feel like your character was stolen from you, and leave the group if you feel you have no control. This kind of "arms race" will only end with the other players as unhappy as you are, and the DM pulling out his hair (or murdering you arbitrarily).
How are you going to cast anything? As a wizard, you cast off int, so you'll be of very limited use. However, there is a trait that allows you to do "persuade" diplomacy checks off of intelligence (student of philosophy). Might be better than inspired.
Edit: Whow, didnt see your stats. That should survive well. It's not an attitude I would recommend though. Be aware, the other players will be as unhappy with you as you are with them.
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If you're sure you want to go through witht his, you can swap out Half Elf for Human. You can trade the bonus feat for Focused Study (3 skill focuses at 1, 8, and 16), and pick up Silver Toungued, for another +2.
However, I don't recommend it. If you've talked it over with your DM, and your sure he won't change his mind, then a good shock like this might be enough to wake him up, but only do it if you're sure nothing else will work.
Well I wouldnt reccomend an arms race... I tend to say that the way your DM is applying diplomacy is arbitrary and cruel. It stops you from being your own character and there are a TON of threads of people here who are against that. Personally, I'm against any serious PVP to begin with.
So please, before going nuts, talk to your DM, explain how you feel like your character was stolen from you, and leave the group if you feel you have no control. This kind of "arms race" will only end with the other players as unhappy as you are, and the DM pulling out his hair (or murdering you arbitrarily).
How are you going to cast anything? As a wizard, you cast off int, so you'll be of very limited use. However, there is a trait that allows you to do "persuade" diplomacy checks off of intelligence (student of philosophy). Might be better than inspired.
Edit: Whow, didnt see your stats. That should survive well. It's not an attitude I would recommend though. Be aware, the other players will be as unhappy with you as you are with them.
Well im not planning on using this character like this the entire way through. This is purely to prove a point because I think the only way he is going to realise just how dumb this rule is is just to show him. The character is built well enough that even after she changes the rule(hopfully by the first session) that he will still be decently well off.
The players at the board arnt great at the game and the DM doesnt throw out anything too tough so you dont even have to close max min your character to be fine.
If you're sure you want to go through witht his, you can swap out Half Elf for Human. You can trade the bonus feat for Focused Study (3 skill focuses at 1, 8, and 16), and pick up Silver Toungued, for another +2.
However, I don't recommend it. If you've talked it over with your DM, and your sure he won't change his mind, then a good shock like this might be enough to wake him up, but only do it if you're sure nothing else will work.
Oh! nice pick up on the Silver Tounged. I didnt check alternate race traits. ^-^
Level 1 Human Sorcerer
Cha 18 with a +2 for 20.
Racial Traits: Focused Study (Diplomacy), Silver Tongued
Trait: Illuminator (+2 Diplomacy, Diplomacy is a class skill)
Feat: Persuasive
Arcane Bloodline (Familiar, Thrush)
Level 1 Diplomacy bonus: 1 rank, +3 class skill, +5 attribute, +2 trait, +3 Skill Focus, +3 Familiar, +2 Persuasive= +19 Diplomacy, first level.
This looks like the better option since you can make use of that Cha in your casting as well.
Take Cultural Adaptation as one of your spells, and just attune it to whatever the culture of the person you're using Diplomacy on is. There's +21.
Level 1 Human Sorcerer
Cha 18 with a +2 for 20.
Racial Traits: Focused Study (Diplomacy), Silver Tongued
Trait: Illuminator (+2 Diplomacy, Diplomacy is a class skill)Feat: Persuasive
Arcane Bloodline (Familiar, Thrush)
Level 1 Diplomacy bonus: 1 rank, +3 class skill, +5 attribute, +2 trait, +3 Skill Focus, +3 Familiar, +2 Persuasive= +19 Diplomacy, first level.
This looks like the better option since you can make use of that Cha in your casting as well.
Take Cultural Adaptation as one of your spells, and just attune it to whatever the culture of the person you're using Diplomacy on is. There's +21.
We dont start with 2 traits like normal. Which is why i took Additional Traits as one of my feats. I took Additional Instead of persuasive because Additional gives Persuasive plus a reroll once per Day. With that i would only have +17
I went Wizard instead of Sorcerer because the Enchantment School from Sorcerer gives me another +2 to Diplomacy and Bluff.
I have no real problems with character power, just interested in ensuring that all my diplomacy checks have the highest chance of success possible.
Sadly i cant use Cultural Adaptation. We arnt allowed to use Player Companion Books. Only Core + Advanced + Ultimate books.
Ah, so you don't get a trait normally, I see.
Still, even without Persuasive you're at +19. I forgot to add the +2 from Silver Tongued.
So you have: 1 rank, +3 class skill, +5 attribute, +2 trait, +3 Skill Focus, +3 Familiar, +2 Silver Tongued = +19 Diplomacy
I've been down this road, it leads to tears.
Don't do this. Not like this anyways. Are you sure your GM won't listen to your concerns?
I've been down this road, it leads to tears.
Don't do this. Not like this anyways. Are you sure your GM won't listen to your concerns?
Positive. She already has alot of made up rules in place that ive talked to her about and she refuses to listen. Like the fact that casting ANY spell takes greater then a full-round action. That you cant use your full move action and a standard action in the same round(you can only use half your move and a standard), standing up from prone takes a full-round, or that regardless of ranks in linguistics you cannot learn a language without having to spend at least 1 week in a place with that language as its native and "immersed in the language". None of which she will change regardless of what source i show her, she simply says i am playing word games with the rules. So~~ she is a little stubborn when anyone says she is wrong, about anything. So im not gonna say anything, just show her.
She is a real-life friends so its not like i hate her, i actually like her alot. But like i said she is pretty hard headed.
Ah, so you don't get a trait normally, I see.
Still, even without Persuasive you're at +19. I forgot to add the +2 from Silver Tongued.
So you have: 1 rank, +3 class skill, +5 attribute, +2 trait, +3 Skill Focus, +3 Familiar, +2 Silver Tongued = +19 Diplomacy
But taking this road im still down 2 in Diplomacy from not taking the Enchantment School. I just switched over to Human and added Silver Tongue though so i now have +21 as a wizard without adding in any spell effects^-^
Depending on how you rule it, you can get twice your wisdom to diplomacy with a dip into infiltrator inquisitor and taking the conversation domain.
If your going wizard, take student of philosophy. It allows you to use intelligence for diplomacy to persuade someone.
No matter who you are you can take persuasive and skill focus. If you get a familiar you can stack that(but you knew that).
But no, really, awful thing to do, and using social skills against other players, especially maliciously, its a terrible road to take and one that you may not one to participate in.
She is a real-life friends so its not like i hate her, i actually like her alot. But like i said she is pretty hard headed.
Some people are great friends, but aren't the people you want to play dnd with. Those rulings look somewhat rough and its awkward to get told your playing with words when there are plenty of houserules like that.
Depending on how you rule it, you can get twice your wisdom to diplomacy with a dip into infiltrator inquisitor and taking the conversation domain.
If your going wizard, take student of philosophy. It allows you to use intelligence for diplomacy to persuade someone.
No matter who you are you can take persuasive and skill focus. If you get a familiar you can stack that(but you knew that).
But no, really, awful thing to do, and using social skills against other players, especially maliciously, its a terrible road to take and one that you may not one to participate in.
She is a real-life friends so its not like i hate her, i actually like her alot. But like i said she is pretty hard headed.Some people are great friends, but aren't the people you want to play dnd with. Those rulings look somewhat rough and its awkward to get told your playing with words when there are plenty of houserules like that.
Oh didnt know Inquisitor was so useful^-^ havnt delved into archtypes very much so their all fairly new to me, nice class for all intents and purposes ^-^
Like i said im not doing it to be malicious. After about 15min of me doing it she will prob stop me and change the rule to only working on NPC's, from then on the game will just go as normal and ill just happen to have a retarded amount of diplomacy, which isnt bad in itself, prob be useful elsewhere.
I feel its better to do this then to continue playing and basically treating Diplomacy like a mind control ability. Cause obviously the other players havnt realized it yet(since we all just recently started playing) but some people will start doing it eventually, then others and so on and so forth. Attacking the problem aggressively from the start before it actually gets out of hand is a better idea to me.
But taking this road im still down 2 in Diplomacy from not taking the Enchantment School. I just switched over to Human and added Silver Tongue though so i now have +21 as a wizard without adding in any spell effects^-^Ah, so you don't get a trait normally, I see.
Still, even without Persuasive you're at +19. I forgot to add the +2 from Silver Tongued.
So you have: 1 rank, +3 class skill, +5 attribute, +2 trait, +3 Skill Focus, +3 Familiar, +2 Silver Tongued = +19 Diplomacy
Yeah, but with my road you haven't gimped yourself for the remainder of the game once her decision is reversed (as you think will happen). =)
There comes a point when you start getting diminishing returns with this.
Assuming your party starts out as Friendly or at least Indifferent towards each other (and why would you be working together if you weren't?), you have a DC 10-15 (plus Cha mod of theirs, likely to not be too high unless they're also Cha casters) check to make them Helpful.
You make both on a 1. With a 1 you have a 20 Diplomacy. That's enough to make that DC 15 check, and go 5 above (meaning they get shifted 2 steps instead of 1), and are Helpful.
Unless everyone else has 18+ Cha (shifting it from 10-15 to 14-19) you're not going to have much of an issue. Succeeding on a 2 or 3 is just fine as well. But this way you aren't sinking your best stat and race bonus into a stat that has no real use for you once all's said and done. With a Sorcerer it has a two-fold bonus, which is always good.
Once they're at Helpful, you have a whopping DC 10 check to make them give you "Dangerous Aid" ("Be my meatshield, kthx"). Even if you only shift them to Friendly (if they have an 18 Cha mod, that's a whopping DC 19. You make it on a 1) that's a DC 15 for "Dangerous Aid". You make that and then some.
With a +19 you already can't lose, basically. No point in jacking it further.
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Yeah, but with my road you haven't gimped yourself for the remainder of the game once her decision is reversed (as you think will happen). =)
There comes a point when you start getting diminishing returns with this.
Assuming your party starts out as Friendly or at least Indifferent towards each other (and why would you be working together if you weren't?), you have a DC 10-15 (plus Cha mod of theirs, likely to not be too high unless they're also Cha casters) check to make them Helpful.
You make both on a 1. With a 1 you have a 20 Diplomacy. That's enough to make that DC 15 check, and go 5 above (meaning they get shifted 2 steps instead of 1), and are Helpful.
Unless everyone else has 18+ Cha (shifting it from 10-15 to 14-19) you're not going to have much of an issue. Succeeding on a 2 or 3 is just fine as well. But this way you aren't sinking your best stat and race bonus into a stat that has no real use for you once all's said and done. With a Sorcerer it has a two-fold bonus, which is always good.
From the story given, it sounds like it's an opposed check, who ever rolls higher wins and the other does what they want. With this, you need to account for a low roll vs a high roll, plus mods. And besides, just the effect of saying, "okay, with my +20-whatever to diplomacy...", is the main point of the build, the sheer powerlessness of the other players. Do it once or twice, show that they literally cannot not do what you say, and get the DM to change the ruling. And even then, a 16 int is still respectable enough to get by, especially in an unoptimized group.
So I think ive gotten as far as i can with my lvl1 character. +21 to Diplomacy is pretty darn good and should be fine, like someone said unless they have high diplomacy's(which i doudt they do since everyone goes Str since spells take greater then full-round actions) it will work fine. Also yes like Jorshamo said she makes it an Opposed Check. My Diplomacy vs Their Diplomacy + Circumstance Modifiers.
Also with some ideas from this thread i also made a level5 version of Diplomacy Dude if anyone wants to see it, was kinda fun. Dont know if its maxed or not yet just put in the mods that where in plain sight. Its also without any spells added to it, Not including his Rhetorical Flourish feat(that gives +4 Dip after a successful Bluff Check) and no aid of magical items. Also i wouldnt bother looking at the other stats just yet as i really only filled out the sheet that pertained to Diplomacy.
Level 5 D Dude: http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=679417
spells take greater then full-round actions
Well I was willing to pass off the Diplomacy thing as an isolated incident but your GM has a rash of terrible houserules it looks like.
I actually quite like the house rule about linguistics and learning languages. The rest of her stuff looks like garbage, though.
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Ok, I knew I had seen a similar thread a while ago, and I tracked down this link:
http://www.thealexandrian.net/creations/advanced-rules/diplomacy-design.htm l
This basically exlains how the rules (as written) on diplomacy are fairly broken. I would also recommend the following fix (from the author of Order Of the Stick):
http://www.giantitp.com/articles/jFppYwv7OUkegKhONNF.html
Propose this to your GM. I know it may not fix everything, it does make much more sense, and personally I want to apply it pretty universally in any game I GM. It's for 3e, but that's close enough to pathfinder for it to work. This convinced me diplomacy was simply too easy to abuse, and maybe it will convince your GM as well.
As for covering the "making people like you" side of things that gets swept under the rug, I reccoment the relationship rules from ultimate campaign:
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/basics-ability-scores/more-character-options/ultima te-campaign---relationships
It's much more interesting from my perspective, and I've got a GM that uses it quite well.
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Human Court Bard (which has better stat synergy than a Wizard with 18 Charisma)
Do this or a tattooed/arcane bloodline sorcerer with a familiar and the extrememly fashionable trait (makes Diplomacy a class skill and gives +1 Diplomacy, Bluff, and Intimidate). I highly do not suggest wizard because the poor stat synergy will make you worthless other than a few diplomacy checks.
Do this or a tattooed/arcane bloodline sorcerer with a familiar and the extrememly fashionable trait (makes Diplomacy a class skill and gives +1 Diplomacy, Bluff, and Intimidate). I highly do not suggest wizard because the poor stat synergy will make you worthless other than a few diplomacy checks.Human Court Bard (which has better stat synergy than a Wizard with 18 Charisma)
Or you can take either trait clever wordplay or Student of Philosophy. Then you use intellect for your diplomacy.
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Or you can take either trait clever wordplay or Student of Philosophy. Then you use intellect for your diplomacy.
Cool traits but I hate how they don't make it a class skill. If he does this he'll still have less bonus than a normal charisma build (but will still be high no doubt) but if he's dead set on wizard this is certainly the way to go.
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Or you can take either trait clever wordplay or Student of Philosophy. Then you use intellect for your diplomacy.Cool traits but I hate how they don't make it a class skill. If he does this he'll still have less bonus than a normal charisma build (but will still be high no doubt) but if he's dead set on wizard this is certainly the way to go.
And then you take extremely fashionable to make them class skills too! May as well be good looking too.
During the campaign I was forced to leave my mother to die because one of my companions Succeeded in a Diplomacy check against me where i fumbled. I was then basically told that because of this success i didnt want to save my mother anymore and left her to get eaten by giants as we escaped.
I am speechless.
Rather than "beat" the GM at his own game for spite, I wouldn't play his little diplomacy game at all. Perhaps doing so requires a talk, maybe walking away from the game. I would personally try for unanimous concent of all players.
I think also Patient Optimist and Dealmaker are potentially two great traits for a diplomacy based character, sure they can take a trait to get Int but if Diplomacy is your primary bag then a Charisma based caster gets their best stat to back it up naturally and leaves the traits to add yet more options.
Dealmaker and patient optimist are pretty far on the side of potential. Dealmaker is useless in a lot of campaigns and patient optimist is situational and a religion trait specifically for Erastil. Trait bonuses don't stack so patient optimist is only good if you already have it in class and really want to only do diplomacy. Sorcerer in particular doesn't start with it in class.
human (focused study; silver tongue)
cha: 18+2race
synthesist (quadruped- skilled[diplomacy], ability boost[Cha])
traits: make Diplomacy class skill +1; one of the reroll or roll-twice traits
feats: skill focus[diplomacy], persuasive
+1 rank
+3 class skill bonus
+1 trait bonus
+6 stat bonus (20 Cha base, +2 from eidolon)
+2 untyped (from silver tongue)
+3 untyped (from skill focus)
+2 untyped (from persuasive)
+8 racial (from skilled evolution)
+26 total without any buffs
if you wanted to, i think there's a trait that lets you add a cantrip from another class to your list- you could use that to add enhanced diplomacy, which would get you up to +28!
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All of the advice listed above is pretty decent, but if you really want to cut to the chase, there's a faster way.
Create an Oracle with the Deaf curse.
Multiclass Deaf Oracle + True Primitive Barbarian Xenophobic Dwarf for maximum "I CAN'T UNDERSTAND YOU" power!
Multiclass Deaf Oracle + True Primitive Barbarian Xenophobic Dwarf for maximum "I CAN'T UNDERSTAND YOU" power!All of the advice listed above is pretty decent, but if you really want to cut to the chase, there's a faster way.
Create an Oracle with the Deaf curse.
Too much work. Someone could decide to learn Dwarf or something.
No, what you want is a Feral Orc. They have NO languages, and can only communicate by grunts and gestures. =)
Some of the house rules are fine (learning a language for instance). Some will have interesting consequences -- a full-round to stand from prone makes trip builds more effective, for example, as well as the feats that exist to allow you to stand up faster, e.g. Monkey style chain. Only being able to move half your speed on a round in which you attack will make faster movement builds better, e.g. barbarians, monks, the fleet feat. (Too bad they didn't name the feat Fleet Feet, then we could be saying 'the Fleet Feet feat'.)
The length of casting is a nerf to spellcasters, but does it also apply to spells that are specifically called out as being shorter than a standard action, e.g. quickened spells? If not, that makes that feat and such spells very significantly powerful. If all spells are 1 round casting time, summon spells and other spells that take 1 round normally are more powerful because they no longer have an action penalty compared to regular spells. Again, it makes things easier for some builds and better for others.
But the diplomacy on PCs thing is horrible. It keeps you from making decisions for your own character. Try asking her what she would do if the shoe was on the other foot -- Ask her if anything in the world besides mind-altering magic would stop her from trying to save her child or parent or loved one from danger, if she could. Point out that no magic was used, just some fast talking by the other party member, which supposedly would leader your character to do something entirely against her nature?
Finally, it comes down to, "I don't want to play in a game in which decisions about my character's actions are made for me by others, in direct opposition to my stated desires, unless there's a really powerful effect that makes sense in game to cause that."
Sounds like the Synthesist could fix all of the house rules.
Diplomacy 26 at 1st.
Can't double move? How about a base move of 60? Fly of 80?
Languages? Just cast Tongues.
Full round to stand? Fly, take the Dimension Dervish feat line and charge from prone, or just have 12 legs and be untrippable.
Long cast spells? Just get pre-fight buffs.
Sounds like the catalyst from Attack on Titan.
I hope this is a joke, because it's ridiculous.