I'm helping a player who's creating a cleric for my campaign. He doesn't have much experience with Pathfinder and is asking for my advice on feats.
So one of my first thoughts was to take Heavy Armor Proficiency, especially since he has a low DEX bonus. And so I look at various class guides and builds out there, but I don't see this feat included.
Is there a reason for that? From what I can see, full plate affords a +3 to AC over the best medium armors. The only reason I see for a cleric not to take Heavy Armor Proficiency is (1) there are other feats they are prioritizing or (2) they have a high DEX mod (but mithral heavy armor adds +2 to the maximum DEX bonus). This particular player wants to get into melee, and so I see it as necessary for his character.
I can see why rangers and barbarians won't take Heavy Armor Proficiency, because it would cancel out important class abilities. But I don't see what clerics would lose.
Is there something I'm not considering?
I don't think so. It'd mainly be to #1.
The cleric is feat starved (more than most classes IMO as they don't get bonus feats or abilities as they progress), so spending a feat for heavier armor isn't always a priority. The build could be more DEX based, or caster based, or what have you. However, if they see themselves as a get in the think of it type character, heavy armor is a good plan IMO.
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The main reasons would be:
1) As you said, needing the feats for other things. This might be the biggest, since clerics have no sources of bonus feats. Additionally, lots of clerics focus on casting, making AC not that much of a priority.
2) With any kind of significant DEX mod, the value of HAP drops significantly. If you have 13 or less DEX, HAP is +3 AC. If you have 14-15 DEX, it's only +2 AC. At 16-17 DEX, it's only +1 AC (compare to Dodge at that point). Yes, you could get mithral heavy armor, but that's pretty expensive.
3) Prefers light armor: full move speed, can sleep in it, etc.
All that said, if you're trying to spend time in melee, then yeah, HAP is a very good feat, very near the top of the list. It's just that not everyone builds a battle cleric. (Lots of people assume that being a cleric means you need to be good at healing.)
Yes, you're losing a feat for a +3 armor. It's not really worth it, not when you can get a breastplate or agile breastplate for 200/400 gp. At higher levels you get it Mithral so he has higher mobility. Being able to move around the battle field and heal is a major benefit.
On top of that, that feat is much better spent taking something like selective channel so he can heal in combat without healing the other people.
If you really want heavy armor, you're almost better off with a fighter level dip (hp, bab, fort save, and weapon/armor proficiency) or if your alignment allows it a Paladin dip (hp, bab, fort save, smite, proficiency). If you go that route, I suggest 2 levels to get the bonus to saves (assuming +1 or better to charisma). In both situations you'll be giving up a bit of spellcasting (with a fighter dip you'll not be much more different than a sorcerer or oracle).
For that matter, you could go with an oracle of battle and put him in full plate that way with revelations.
EDIT : Sorry, Oracle of Metal, not Oracle of Battle. Oracle of Metal can get all martial weapons and armor as one revelation, and a second one for the ability to move at normal speed in heavy armor, and reduce the armor check penalty. You might want to consider that.
Dex is the primary reason, but there are others.
Medium Breastplate counts as light, meaning full movement speed. Heavy Armor will always slow you down without some special class feature. Not to mention ACP.
At best your burning a feat for 3 AC (which is very worth it for some builds!) and slowing yourself down.
At worst (a high dex build) you get +1 AC
Unless you're a dwarf, mithral heavy plate slows your movement (unlike a mithral breastplate) which can be serious if you need to get to an ally in one round to save their life. But it's a valid choice.
I've played 10 clerics and never taken it. You do just fine without it.
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How high is his strength? If he didn't prioritize it, he might not actually be able to move around in that heavy armor without buffing first.
What kind of weapon is he using, and is he using a shield? IF his check penalties make it impossible for him to pull off STR or DEX based skills, that might be another thing to consider. You also don't have a lot of feats, so that can make it prohibitive unless they're taking an archetype like the Crusader.
Wow, very useful advice from everyone! What I will definitely raise with him is the lack of full movement speed and the encumbrance factor. (Although isn't he already considered heavily encumbered because of the full plate, so therefore he could carry a load close to his 100% maximum carrying capacity without an additional penalty?
Just so everyone knows, we will be starting Wrath of the Righteous with five characters:
Paladin
Monk
Cleric
Inquisitor focused on archery
Wizard
He wanted to be able to contribute to melee, but I am using the Elite Array (15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8) which kind of forces the players to specialize and cooperate. He's very excited to be a healer. With at most a +1 in STR he won't be very useful in melee, especially later when his BAB falls behind the paladin and the monk-when-flurrying, and they can do the bulk of melee fighting. My logic for HAP was, "You can't heal anybody if you're dead." But then perhaps the paladin and monk can sufficiently protect him?
Casters don't need the feat even if they stay in melee as they don't attack and can just take the penalty. Its the battle clerics that need it. Most of the pfs deaths I've seen from melee damage were clerics with poor AC. I saw two bite it once in the same session.
Do not multiclass a caster. Losing that spell level hurts!
I don't see throwing one or two levels of fighter onto a cleric as being a big deal. You're still getting your 9th level spells, and you get two bonus feats, the proficiencies ... overall, it's not a bad deal, IMHO.
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I'm playing a support cleric in Reign of Winter and debating whether or not to take HAP. I'm still torn- my dex is drek so the extra 3 AC would really help, and with scribe scroll I could sock away a few "Effortless Armors" for a rainy day... it may not be a terrible idea.
I considered taking a level of fighter or two, but decided I'd rather be able to sling the spells I need right when I need them, and not 2 levels later.
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I'd also recommend going reach cleric route, especially if he takes the 2 levs in fighter, which gives him room to be effective with both reach weapons and decent with spell casting
Dwarven clerics of Cayden, take it and with travel and liberation domains, stone plate clad cleric rolls over everything just like the rock-biter!
Movement is 30 no matter how heavy the armor is and 40 for most of the day thanks to longstrider......
He's taking HAP because of low Dex.
Remember that anyone can increase Dex...at higher levels. But if his Dex is going to stay low, HAP could be +2-3 AC. That's significant.
At higher levels, he can always train it out for something else if his Dex gets high enough that it is no longer useful. However, at lower levels his main problem is going to be his slow move.
Make sure he grabs a shield if AC is his primary. Otherwise, Reach weapon to stay out of melee keeps him alive.
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If you allocate your cash properly, AC goes up VERY quickly. Casters especially can stay ahead of the curve at lower levels with Greater Magic Vestment, Shield of Faith, and esp Barkskin.
==Aelryinth
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That's equivalent to a 15 point build... that's going to be painful in Wrath. But I won't say it's not doable.
He wanted to be able to contribute to melee, but I am using the Elite Array (15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8) which kind of forces the players to specialize and cooperate.
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Most clerics I've played and played with don't take it. They are a bit feat starved and things like selective channel come first.
YMMV
I think the only time we've had clerics select it was specifically when they took the Crusader archetype and had bonus feats and some pretty specific reasons to want it.
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It's an okay feat if you want to play a strong support cleric which doesn't require much in the way of feats to function well. Added defense on top of a shield and buffs cna be quite nice if you already have some decent mobility and doesn't compromise your spellcasting in the way dipping does.
Otherwise there are much better things to take and more incentive to take them. Personally I've never taken it simply because I'd rather be doing something else with my money and feats. Like scribing scrolls.
Just an update: this player basically wants to do what's best for the party and so I suggested he specialize and not worry about melee so much. And when he saw that heavy armor would slow him down it was a dealbreaker (he's playing a human and is committed to taking the Healing and Glory domains). With a paladin and monk in front, he can go the reach weapon route as some people suggested.
I also will give him advice about the importance of buffing and other types of cleric spells beyond just straight healing. Also, the inquisitor player has decided to be a sorcerer.
With this same group, I am running a campaign that is more RP focused where I have fudged a couple rolls behind the screen, while with this campaign I am deliberately emphasizing more the tactical/teamwork side of the game and upping the sense of danger.
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All modules, and AP are written to be run with only 15 point buy. 15 point buy is standard fantasy. I love making characters on 15 points it forces you to make real choices of what you want to be good at, along with what can I be no so good at.
As for HAP most of the time it's not worth the feet you spend on it. There are much better ways to a high AC with a one level dip. My cleric in PFSP is level 6. His unbuffed AC is 18. His buffed AC is 31. That's what happens when you have a ok Dex then dip one level of monk to get your Wis Mod to AC. Stacked with a wand of mage armor, and protection domain defense subdomain so you can cast shield, and Bark skin. Just need a few level one pearls to cast shield a few extra times a day.
Dex Mod 1 + Wis Mod 6 + Dodge 1 + Armor 4 + Shield 4 + Natural Armor 2 + Enchantment 1 = 31 (For 5min at a time. 4 pearls let me do this 5 times a day.) (I can activate the defense subdomain power for 2 more if needed.)
At high levels, heavy armor proficiency is worthless... unless you sink a bunch of resources into boosting your AC (and that means spending a lot of your WBL on AC-boosting items, and feats, and seeking class features to boost AC), combat focused monsters at around your level will land hits on a natural 2.
In my experience this isn't true.
For example, the non-caster final boss enemies from one adventure path have the following iterative attacks against level 15 PCs:+33/+28/+23/+18
+24/+19/+14
+23/+18/+13 & a +15 natural weapon or +21/+16/+11 ranged
(possibly improved by buffs).
Let's say a cleric has +3 full plate, a +2 ring of protection, a +3 amulet of natural armor, a +3 heavy shield, another +2 from an ioun stone and a Jingasa of the Fortunate Soldier, and +1 from Dex.
That's AC of 35 for 57000gp or so (about a quarter of wealth by level) - less if he achieves the same bonuses with buffs.
One of those attacks will hit on a 2, but some won't even hit on a 19. Without heavy armor, the damage he'd take would increase by around 20%.
As for HAP most of the time it's not worth the feet you spend on it.
Don't spend your feet! That will reduce your movement speed even more!
25% of WBL is the suggested guideline for defenses, so it's not overspending.
We're talking about one feat, Heavy Armour Proficiency, to get +3 AC.
If you want to get the financial cost down, we'll use Shield of Faith instead of Ring of Protection, two casting of Magic Vestment in place of the enchantments on the full plate and shield, and reduce the Amulet of Natural Armour to +2. So that's two level 3 spell slots and three or four castings of a level 1 spell, and only 20,000gp of equipment (plus maybe a few Pearls of Power to conserve your level 1 spell slots), and the AC is now 1 higher (because Shield of Faith is +4 AC at that level). At level 16, AC will rise by another 2 for free because the Magic Vestment will improve.
25% of WBL is the suggested guideline for defenses, so it's not overspending.Defense is much larger than just AC. Defense includes saving throws, and immunities, and miss chance-based illusions. 25% of WBL and a bunch of feats just to get a somewhat meaningful AC is definitely overspending on AC.
Uhm, no...
Protection: This category includes armor and shields, as well as any magic item that augments a character's Armor Class or saving throws.
Their grandfather made them wear his old heavy plate armor every day and then he would hit them with a stick for 12 hours straight. When their grandfather died, they vowed they would never wear heavy armor ever again...
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25% of WBL is the suggested guideline for defenses, so it's not overspending.Defense is much larger than just AC. Defense includes saving throws, and immunities, and miss chance-based illusions. 25% of WBL and a bunch of feats just to get a somewhat meaningful AC is definitely overspending on AC.
If by a bunch of feats, you mean- Heavy Armor Proficiency.
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It depends on level, but in any case it isn't all that great:
At low levels, selective channeling (or another channeling feat, like turn undead) is better. Or something to boost your spellcasting. You need feats, and a small difference in AC isn't that huge a deal. You can take it, but it isn't all that great. It doesn't suck either, though at low levels, but you will want to retrain it later.
At mid levels, you'll probably know whether you are built to go into melee or not. Not all clerics do. If you aren't going into melee much, it isn't worth a feat. If you are doing more martial combat, then as Zhayne said, you'd probably be better off dipping one level of fighter. That way, you get heavy armor proficiency and more weapon proficiencies and better BAB and another combat feat in addition to heavy armor proficiencies.
At high levels, heavy armor proficiency is worthless. Why, you ask? The game is intentionally designed so that high level attack bonuses increase faster than AC. So unless you sink a bunch of resources into boosting your AC (and that means spending a lot of your WBL on AC-boosting items, and feats, and seeking class features to boost AC), combat focused monsters at around your level will land hits on a natural 2. AC at high levels is all-or-nothing: either you pump a huge portion of your character's resources into boosting AC, or you don't worry about it at all (get a miss chance from something). If a monster can hit you on a natural 2, an extra -3 to AC won't make you any easier to hit.
EDIT: And if you are building a melee-combat focused character with a ton of resources put into AC, you'd probably still want to consider a dip in fighter or another class with HAP.So overall, the drawbacks of heavy armor proficiency depend a lot on your level. But overall, it is okay (not great) for melee-focused clerics below level 5. If your game won't go past level 5, it could be a good choice, but there are probably other good...
For reference, I have an 8th-level cleric in PFS. I spend a huge percentage of wealth on AC. But as a result, even a CR+3 attack-focused monster needs a 12 to hit me (or a 14 if I throw up shield of faith).
And that's a single-monster encounter, attack-focused, at "epic" (CR=APL+3). A natural 12 to hit me. Is the encounter anything less than epic? Is there more than one monster? Is the monster's power divided between attacks and something else? Then it's even harder to hit me. (The "low attack" value for a CR+1, for instance, needs a 19 to hit me, unbuffed.)
Ironically, I also have full movement speed (mithral breastplate).
Personally I'm going for Shield Focus for my next cleric, so that I can later get the Missile Shield feat - a great counter for those archers who ready to shoot you when you're casting. Admittedly, Selective Channeling comes first! It almost always does.
I hate selective channeling.
But anyway, I'd almost rather go improved unarmed/deflect arrows for that sort of thing. Fewer prerequisite and i dont have to be holding a shield. IT also opens up the possibility of domain strike. Hilarity defined is when you're casting fleshworm infestation punch them in the face while domain strike (madness) and your spellstoring amulet of mighty fists procs to cast bestow curse all at once.
Yes, yes this is a horrible way to die.
Personally I'm going for Shield Focus for my next cleric, so that I can later get the Missile Shield feat - a great counter for those archers who ready to shoot you when you're casting. Admittedly, Selective Channeling comes first! It almost always does.I hate selective channeling.
But anyway, I'd almost rather go improved unarmed/deflect arrows for that sort of thing. Fewer prerequisite and i dont have to be holding a shield. IT also opens up the possibility of domain strike. Hilarity defined is when you're casting fleshworm infestation punch them in the face while domain strike (madness) and your spellstoring amulet of mighty fists procs to cast bestow curse all at once.
Yes, yes this is a horrible way to die.
I hate Selective channeling too.
I don't remember where I saw it, but this also opens up punching a Lich with a Disruption weapon'ed fist and watching him explode.
I don't really get the fascination with selective channel. Channeling for healing is a nice benefit, but in combat its just not getting the job done, certainly not enough to burn a feat on.
As for the heavy armor. It really depends on how you play your cleric. My battle cleric is low dex, low int (so no combat expertise), so i need to wear heavy armor due to penalties. But other clerics that are less martial or balanced don't even need to bother with any AC feats. Besides, judicious spell/consumable use can negate the need to worry about AC based damage mitigation.
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I don't really get the fascination with selective channel. Channeling for healing is a nice benefit, but in combat its just not getting the job done, certainly not enough to burn a feat on.
Since not all clerics will be channeling positive energy, Selective Channel can save you from killing your own party....not that I've done that by mistake... <.< >.>
And when your GM tracks the difference between "bleeding out" enemies and "dead" enemies, Selective Channeling keeps you from inadvertently giving certain foes a chance to pop back up and start pounding you again.
What? You were throwing around free healing. Not their fault for exploiting it.
Thankfully the healing is so low anyway that a prone and now conscious enemy is a minor nuisance.
Personally I'd smack the gm upside the head with a newspaper for wasting my time like that.
Because now my characters are going to personally run around and coup de grace all the bodies after the fight so he doesn't pull the "playing dead" crap.
At high levels, heavy armor proficiency is worthless... unless you sink a bunch of resources into boosting your AC (and that means spending a lot of your WBL on AC-boosting items, and feats, and seeking class features to boost AC), combat focused monsters at around your level will land hits on a natural 2.In my experience this isn't true.
For example, the non-caster final boss
enemies from one adventure path have the following iterative attacks against level 15 PCs:
+33/+28/+23/+18
+24/+19/+14
+23/+18/+13 & a +15 natural weapon or +21/+16/+11 ranged
(possibly improved by buffs).
Let's say a cleric has +3 full plate, a +2 ring of protection, a +3 amulet of natural armor, a +3 heavy shield, another +2 from an ioun stone and a Jingasa of the Fortunate Soldier, and +1 from Dex.
That's AC of 35 for 57000gp or so (about a quarter of wealth by level) - less if he achieves the same bonuses with buffs.
One of those attacks will hit on a 2, but some won't even hit on a 19. Without heavy armor, the damage he'd take would increase by around 20%.
I bolded the relevant part.
The reason why many people find AC non-relevant at higher level is because most the time, it's the casters the one that give real problems, and most the time, it's the will save what you should be raising with your gold against bosses. Right from the top of my head, Rise of Runelords, Curse of Crimson Throne, Kingmaker, Reign of Winter... Most the AP final BBEG is a caster of some sort, and when it is not (like dragons), their to-hit is so big, than most players AC would be hit with a 2 regardless, only dedicated AC-boost characters would remain relevant.That said, having a decent AC make your life easier for the grinding process of getting to the BBEG room, and if you mix several bonuses, it's relatively easy to get a decent AC that will keep the minions, sub-bosses and liutenants crying.
And when your GM tracks the difference between "bleeding out" enemies and "dead" enemies, Selective Channeling keeps you from inadvertently giving certain foes a chance to pop back up and start pounding you again.
What? You were throwing around free healing. Not their fault for exploiting it.
Thankfully the healing is so low anyway that a prone and now conscious enemy is a minor nuisance.
Personally I'd smack the gm upside the head with a newspaper for wasting my time like that.
Because now my characters are going to personally run around and coup de grace all the bodies after the fight so he doesn't pull the "playing dead" crap.
Really? You'd get mad at a GM for following the rules? Why shouldn't monsters/NPCs get to bleed out and have a chance to stabilize/survive like everyone else?
How would you feel if the enemies did the same thing to you?
To be fair, most characters do max out their Will saves. If not, they get owned by it. It's a completely different argument. You don't use AC against a caster, and you don't worry about will saves against rampaging enemy cloud giants and vrock fighter/7's.
And concealment effects/displacement get LESS useful with level, not more, as more and more enemies have blindsense, blindsight, tremorsense, and especially True Seeing, and just ignore your displacement/concealment/mirror image effects.
Major Displacement is also extremely expensive. For the same money, you could buy a +5 Luck bonus to AC and likely reduce a 50% hit chance for the same enemy all the time to 25%, just like the cloak. You generally only see it on casters for the simple reason they can use it on a spell, and don't spend money on AC. If your AC at 15 is 20-25, Displacement is a great investment. If it's 30-35, not so much.
==Aelryinth
Really? You'd get mad at a GM for following the rules? Why shouldn't monsters/NPCs get to bleed out and have a chance to stabilize/survive like everyone else?And when your GM tracks the difference between "bleeding out" enemies and "dead" enemies, Selective Channeling keeps you from inadvertently giving certain foes a chance to pop back up and start pounding you again.
What? You were throwing around free healing. Not their fault for exploiting it.
Thankfully the healing is so low anyway that a prone and now conscious enemy is a minor nuisance.
Personally I'd smack the gm upside the head with a newspaper for wasting my time like that.
Because now my characters are going to personally run around and coup de grace all the bodies after the fight so he doesn't pull the "playing dead" crap.
Because they're npc's.
And by this assumption one's we weren't very nice to from the start. If the gm is douche enough to pull that and make the group waste another minute of their precious game time killing an enemy already defeated (unless they were intentionally trying to keep him alive that's a different story) then they can face the sports section.
For the record I don't do this to my players. Dead enemies are dead. I don't prolong fights to the point of comedy. I want to move on with the game. This is rule zero working to the benefit of the group.
And if the enemies did the same thing to me? Wouldn't know. Never happened. I'd probably be happy about it.
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I wouldn't dream of getting HAP with my cleric.
It is an example of how clerics can be made differently.
She s a Drow with the Trickery and Darkness domains and maxed Stealth. Slowly clanking around in full plate is going to be pretty silly. It would waste the advantage of her Darkness and Invisibility (picking up the Drow feats for maximum Darkness SLAs).
Different builds etc., and clerics can be made in many ways.
Notabot, this character has Selective Channelling. She needs it. After hiding among the enemies she starts throwing out negative energy blasts. Fellow party members wouldn't be too amused without that feat.
I don't see throwing one or two levels of fighter onto a cleric as being a big deal. You're still getting your 9th level spells, and you get two bonus feats, the proficiencies ... overall, it's not a bad deal, IMHO.
This is a valid option, especially if there is a weapon proficiency you want, as well. This also comes with a d10 hit dice and a bonus feat(Improved Initiative anyone?). Take Magical Knack as a trait and you won't really even notice. If you take the fighter level at first you'll get 10 hp, which is quite nice.
I don't see throwing one or two levels of fighter onto a cleric as being a big deal. You're still getting your 9th level spells, and you get two bonus feats, the proficiencies ... overall, it's not a bad deal, IMHO.This is a valid option, especially if there is a weapon proficiency you want, as well. This also comes with a d10 hit dice and a bonus feat(Improved Initiative anyone?). Take Magical Knack as a trait and you won't really even notice. If you take the fighter level at first you'll get 10 hp, which is quite nice.
At that point though I'd much rather be an oracle of battle or METAL. I get my cake with a side order of more skill points.