I did not know the check penalty of the breastplate offhand. I take it the bonuses for being masterwork (the default quality of mithral) are already baked into those for being mithral?Yes, but if you reduce the ACP to zero, then there is effectively no penalty. The penalty for wearing armor you aren't proficient in is taking the ACP on attack rolls (and more skills, I think) ... if that number is zero, you're off the hook.I believe that a character who only has Light Armor Proficiency due to their class (rogue, for example) still needs the Medium Armor Proficiency feat to wear Mithral Breastplate.
You are correct, already baked in.
It's a bit tragic that reality has shown heavy armor isn't as inflexible as codified in PF. I agree the ACP on heavy armor is way too high, and is not a good balancing point (as is max Dex bonus). The fact that Dex is SO much more powerful of an ability compared to strength is still the primary reason, IMO, for the popularity of Dex-focused builds.
It's a bit tragic that reality has shown heavy armor isn't as inflexible as codified in PF. I agree the ACP on heavy armor is way too high, and is not a good balancing point (as is max Dex bonus).
In fairness to Pathfinder, most of the ACP and Max Dex numbers come from 3rd edition D&D, which was made back when knowledge about how actual armor worked wasn't as common and accessible as it is now. Like a lot of Pathfinder's problems, it's as much a legacy issue as anything else.
The other thing that makes Heavy Armor a little less popular is that a high mobility build will usually have a very hihg Touch AC as well where as the hihg armor has a high flat-foot AC.
It's a bit tragic that reality has shown heavy armor isn't as inflexible as codified in PF. I agree the ACP on heavy armor is way too high, and is not a good balancing point (as is max Dex bonus). The fact that Dex is SO much more powerful of an ability compared to strength is still the primary reason, IMO, for the popularity of Dex-focused builds.While the ACP's are high, I've never thought they were unfairly so. You are wearing enough metal on you, that depending on your race, could very much weigh just as much as you.
How would you expect to move in that? For any kind of activity that required fine manipulation. (aka. dex) I mean it sucks, but it makes complete sense to me and I honestly wouldn't have them change it.
I have seen guys in Field Plate to kick-ups* and a girl in masterwork full plate (was especially made for her) do flik-flaks on a meadow. I myself have worn a chain shirt which was worse than wearing types of armor classified as medium or heavy in PF. For example a jack of plate, which is essentially a banded mail protecting only the torso. (thus it is to a banded mail what a chainshirt is to the chainmail.
*jumping to your feet from a prone position as taught in martial arts.
I agree that overall, chain should have a significantly higher ACP than it does now, and full plate much less. Similarly, full plate could drop the movement penalty as well, being the penultimate of armor. Just make it a bit harder to acquire than simply "have cash and big city, it's yours".
I agree that overall, chain should have a significantly higher ACP than it does now, and full plate much less. Similarly, full plate could drop the movement penalty as well, being the penultimate of armor. Just make it a bit harder to acquire than simply "have cash and big city, it's yours".
As a houserule you could easily do this by ruling that nonmagic fullplate is always tailor-made and is always masterwork. That way if you want one you have to ask some armorsmith that you want him to make you your suit. Then he would want at least part of the money beforehand because if you don't come by and fetch it he wasted lots of time and money.
And after how long ever it takes him to craft your armor you can get it.As is now if the half-orc fighter finds a new suit of armor he likes better the half-elven female paladin can just take his old full plate and she's good to go. This makes thinks easier but surely not more realistically.
So this boils down to: How much realism do RPGs need/endure.
I had a cleric who wore heavy armor and wielded a tower shield without the proficiency for either. I think I was able to get him to a -21/-26 attack bonus at level 8. It was great. Did terrible things to touch spells, but still, amazing. Man could hardly move at all. Had to bust out the Ant Haul to even move at one point.
I think it was... 6 BAB - 1 Strength Penalty - 2 for a Broken weapon - 4 for weapon non-proficiency - 2 inappropriately sized weapon - 2 Tower Shield penalty - 6 Full Plate non-proficiency armor check penalty - 10 Tower Shield non-proficiency armor check penalty for... -21!
I had him wielding a broken scythe in one hand for giggles.
His AC was good though.
I just wonder what a -21 attack bonus would look like, visually.
I just wonder what a -21 attack bonus would look like, visually.
Really sad. :P
That being said, if they wanted to go for some sort of "realism", armor doesn't restrict movement half as much as it fatigues you, so instead of movement penalties and super high check penalties, it'd be more realistic to cause the fatigued condition after a while.
But that also sounds very lame. :P
It's a bit tragic that reality has shown heavy armor isn't as inflexible as codified in PF. I agree the ACP on heavy armor is way too high, and is not a good balancing point (as is max Dex bonus). The fact that Dex is SO much more powerful of an ability compared to strength is still the primary reason, IMO, for the popularity of Dex-focused builds.While the ACP's are high, I've never thought they were unfairly so. You are wearing enough metal on you, that depending on your race, could very much weigh just as much as you.
How would you expect to move in that? For any kind of activity that required fine manipulation. (aka. dex) I mean it sucks, but it makes complete sense to me and I honestly wouldn't have them change it.
They might not be "unfairly" high from a simulationist perspective. But they are from a gamist perspective. Drom a simulationist perspective, tge full plate should also make you nearly immune to daggers and other stuff (like tiger sized claws), except for coup de grace situations, but from a gamist perspective that would make plate too powerful and dagger rogues unbalanced. The ACP is way too high from a balance point of view. A 20th level cleric/fighter in full plate was destroyed by 1st level grease spell, and a knight in full plate and heavy metal shield has negative riding skill.
It's a bit tragic that reality has shown heavy armor isn't as inflexible as codified in PF. I agree the ACP on heavy armor is way too high, and is not a good balancing point (as is max Dex bonus). The fact that Dex is SO much more powerful of an ability compared to strength is still the primary reason, IMO, for the popularity of Dex-focused builds.While the ACP's are high, I've never thought they were unfairly so. You are wearing enough metal on you, that depending on your race, could very much weigh just as much as you.
How would you expect to move in that? For any kind of activity that required fine manipulation. (aka. dex) I mean it sucks, but it makes complete sense to me and I honestly wouldn't have them change it.
It doesn't matter how realistic it is ... if the drawbacks to anything are so severe that nobody every uses it, that element is merely a waste of space in the game manual. Plus, if you actually think about it, it doesn't make sense.
Let's also consider that in the typical PF/D&D world ...
1. They've been wearing the same armor and using the same weapons for centuries, perhaps millenia. Being in that kind of innovative stasis, where you can't create new things, means that you will be very, very good at improving what you already can. It is perfectly logical to me that PF armor, while still primitive/midaeval, would be far more advanced than our 'comparable' armor.
2. You can literally look at the sky, and say, "Hey, (God of Metal/Forge/Invention), can you please tell me how to make this armor easier to move around in?" and it can work.
3. Anybody of average intelligence cast spells. Someone could easily create a 'Know How To Craft Better Armor' spell, or a 'look at my craft skill go through the roof' spell in general, and teach it to anybody with a halfway decent intelligence.
The only time the ludicrous ACP penalties make sense is if you, for some reason, think fantasy gaming has anything to do with historical accuracy or reality simulation.
The social status associations for the more advanced armours would probably be a bigger limitation than cost. Nobles viewed armour like full plate as status symbols and wouldn't want oiks running around in it.
1. In the real world, not necessarily in fantasy worlds.
2. You can't always get what you want.
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They might not be "unfairly" high from a simulationist perspective. But they are from a gamist perspective. Drom a simulationist perspective, tge full plate should also make you nearly immune to daggers and other stuff (like tiger sized claws), except for coup de grace situations, but from a gamist perspective that would make plate too powerful and dagger rogues unbalanced. The ACP is way too high from a balance point of view. A 20th level cleric/fighter in full plate was destroyed by 1st level grease spell, and a knight in full plate and heavy metal shield has negative riding skill.It's a bit tragic that reality has shown heavy armor isn't as inflexible as codified in PF. I agree the ACP on heavy armor is way too high, and is not a good balancing point (as is max Dex bonus). The fact that Dex is SO much more powerful of an ability compared to strength is still the primary reason, IMO, for the popularity of Dex-focused builds.While the ACP's are high, I've never thought they were unfairly so. You are wearing enough metal on you, that depending on your race, could very much weigh just as much as you.
How would you expect to move in that? For any kind of activity that required fine manipulation. (aka. dex) I mean it sucks, but it makes complete sense to me and I honestly wouldn't have them change it.
cavaliers dont have any ACP to ride
A cavalier does not take an armor check penalty on Ride checks while riding his mount. The mount is always considered combat trained and begins play with Light Armor Proficiency as a bonus feat. A cavalier’s mount does not gain the share spells special ability.and a low dc acrobatics check wont hurt a 20th lvl fighter at all. armor training, a few skill points, and a good dex. i can see it happening to some builds/monsters but as a problem of the class i dont see it.
I just wonder what a -21 attack bonus would look like, visually.Really sad. :P
That being said, if they wanted to go for some sort of "realism", armor doesn't restrict movement half as much as it fatigues you, so instead of movement penalties and super high check penalties, it'd be more realistic to cause the fatigued condition after a while.
But that also sounds very lame. :P
If much of the combat/weapons/armor were done realistically we'd have a very different game with much less combat. It would also have a lot more fatigue, incremental and specific damage, weapon breakage, specified attacks and defenses, and loss of effectiveness over time.
So I just try to apply the rules and not get too tied up in how realistic or unrealistic they are.
cavaliers dont have any ACP to ride
I said "knights", not "cavaliers". A fighter can be a knight too. Or a Paladin. Even a Ranger.
I'd just halve the ACP penalties across the board and keep it simple.
I just wonder what a -21 attack bonus would look like, visually.Really sad. :P
That being said, if they wanted to go for some sort of "realism", armor doesn't restrict movement half as much as it fatigues you, so instead of movement penalties and super high check penalties, it'd be more realistic to cause the fatigued condition after a while.
But that also sounds very lame. :P
If much of the combat/weapons/armor were done realistically we'd have a very different game with much less combat. It would also have a lot more fatigue, incremental and specific damage, weapon breakage, specified attacks and defenses, and loss of effectiveness over time.
So I just try to apply the rules and not get too tied up in how realistic or unrealistic they are.
Heheh, don't worry. I'm not. Like I said, fatiguing characters due to their armor wouldn't be much fun or very nice to the martials, though I suppose enforcing the myth that armor was clunky and hard to move in isn't much nicer.
Likewise having a lethal, well equipped group of killers running about pursuing whatever cause takes their fancy is not something most lords would tolerate. So denying the pcs equipment unless they were working for them should be the norm for those in power.
A group of lethal, well equipped group of fireball slingers is way more dangerous for a lord. Denying the wizard PCs access to spellbooks should also be the norm for those in power. Actually it was in middle ages, even burning the wizards in a stake. And their magic wasn't even real
Indeed but I will point out that the basis for most fantasy worlds is the medieval world.
Which is ridiculous and illogical.
Plus, HOW is he going to deny the PCs equipment? They don't buy it from the nobles, and if he says 'give me that armor', well, he deserves to have his face laughed in for being a putz.
Likewise having a lethal, well equipped group of killers running about pursuing whatever cause takes their fancy is not something most lords would tolerate. So denying the pcs equipment unless they were working for them should be the norm for those in power.A group of lethal, well equipped group of fireball slingers is way more dangerous for a lord. Denying the wizard PCs access to spellbooks should also be the norm for those in power. Actually it was in middle ages, even burning the wizards in a stake. And their magic wasn't even real
Gustavo is right. And let's be honest here. If we want to get "realistic" then you have to understand that literally every non magical individual would be on a lower social caste, ruled over by the magical overlords, and no one but the mages would have any viable means of combating them.
Armor, including those of mystical materials like mirthral and adamantine provide virtually no protection against magic. In fact, most of the time it actually makes you more vulnerable to magic (such as with [Electricity] spells getting a bonus on attacks vs metal wearers, lower touch ACs, slower movement speeds, and in many cases literally turning into an oven to roast you in with spells like heat metal).
Even ADEPTs the NPC class would rule over humanity easily if we were being "realistic".
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Heavy armor is good if you are in a medieval style battle, such as being mounted on a warhorse and charging a bunch of giants.
Heavy armor and shield start becoming truly obsolete as touch attacks become more common. If there are alchemists, firearms, and creatures with touch attacks, then any small advantage that heavy armor had is negated. And many of the touch attacks turn out to be things, like disintegration beams, incorporeal life energy drains, or harm spells, that you really want to avoid.
The skill penalties are not such a big deal, because most characters are no good at stealth or acrobatics anyway.
On the ocean, heavy armor is just dumb.
Actually due to the availability of mundane energy touch attacks like acid, alchemist fire, alchemist frost, tanglefoot bags, and so forth, it's very easy to ignore armor even for the mundane folk. A vial of acid is a mere 10 gold (about 3.3 gp to craft) and is a ranged touch attack that deals DR-ignoring damage and splash damage. Alchemist fire is 20 gp and is even more dangerous due to setting the creature ablaze (a focus-firing of alchemist fire will bring ruin to most creatures in the game).
These tools are likely the best defenses against common monsters in the world. For example, if a Tyrannosaurus attacked a settlement looking to feed on the tiny humanoid morsels, it would find itself in deep doo-doo.
If you tossed about 21 alchemist fires on the critter (a fairly easy task) it will likely die, or be so wounded as to flee before being mopped up by some low level archers or something before the town eats the thing. So all you'd need is a militia of about 20 guys to kill it with a few grenade weapons that are easily within the NPC gear values for the militia.
And a T-Rex is kind of extreme. It's amazingly large and flooded with HP. Other dangers like hydra, manticore, most undead, constructs, vermin (including giant species), animals, and even young dragons are pretty vulnerable to alchemical assaults unless they have some sort of magical protections available to them.
On the ocean, heavy armor is just dumb.
In the middle ages and even far later most sailors could not swim properly. Often that was on purpose because men who could not swim were more inclined to defend their ship.
If you are on the ocean and can't swim, what does it matter if you wear heavy armor?
And, really, if you can swim and are on the open sea, how likely is it that someone comes by rescuing you?
In my opinion the idea/hope to survive falling into the ocean is dumb undless it's near the shore. And besides there are magic items that let you swim quite well in full plate. My stonelord had one of those.
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On the ocean, heavy armor is just dumb.
In the middle ages and even far later most sailors could not swim properly. Often that was on purpose because men who could not swim were more inclined to defend their ship.
If you are on the ocean and can't swim, what does it matter if you wear heavy armor?
And, really, if you can swim and are on the open sea, how likely is it that someone comes by rescuing you?
In my opinion the idea/hope to survive falling into the ocean is dumb undless it's near the shore. And besides there are magic items that let you swim quite well in full plate. My stonelord had one of those.
The problem is not when you are into the sea. The problem is not being cast at sea. You WILL need good acrobatics skill and speed. The heavy armor definitely does not help with this.
In the middle ages and even far later most sailors could not swim properly. Often that was on purpose because men who could not swim were more inclined to defend their ship.
On the ocean, heavy armor is just dumb.
Not to mention that until pretty recently, naval duty tended to be so absolutely miserable that a lot of sailors would jump ship the first chance they got. Especially since the standard naval recruitment practice was to just grab nearby able-bodied men and force them into the navy. Sailors who can swim have more options when it comes to getting away.
Not to mention that until pretty recently, naval duty tended to be so absolutely miserable that a lot of sailors would jump ship the first chance they got. Especially since the standard naval recruitment practice was to just grab nearby able-bodied men and force them into the navy. Sailors who can swim have more options when it comes to getting away.In the middle ages and even far later most sailors could not swim properly. Often that was on purpose because men who could not swim were more inclined to defend their ship.
On the ocean, heavy armor is just dumb.
Only if they manage to get off the boat within swimming distance of land.
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Heavy armor is good if you are in a medieval style battle, such as being mounted on a warhorse and charging a bunch of giants.
Heavy armor and shield start becoming truly obsolete as touch attacks become more common. If there are alchemists, firearms, and creatures with touch attacks, then any small advantage that heavy armor had is negated. And many of the touch attacks turn out to be things, like disintegration beams, incorporeal life energy drains, or harm spells, that you really want to avoid.
The skill penalties are not such a big deal, because most characters are no good at stealth or acrobatics anyway.
On the ocean, heavy armor is just dumb.
Actually due to the availability of mundane energy touch attacks like acid, alchemist fire, alchemist frost, tanglefoot bags, and so forth, it's very easy to ignore armor even for the mundane folk. A vial of acid is a mere 10 gold (about 3.3 gp to craft) and is a ranged touch attack that deals DR-ignoring damage and splash damage. Alchemist fire is 20 gp and is even more dangerous due to setting the creature ablaze (a focus-firing of alchemist fire will bring ruin to most creatures in the game).
These tools are likely the best defenses against common monsters in the world. For example, if a Tyrannosaurus attacked a settlement looking to feed on the tiny humanoid morsels, it would find itself in deep doo-doo.
If you tossed about 21 alchemist fires on the critter (a fairly easy task) it will likely die, or be so wounded as to flee before being mopped up by some low level archers or something before the town eats the thing. So all you'd need is a militia of about 20 guys to kill it with a few grenade weapons that are easily within the NPC gear values for the militia.
And a T-Rex is kind of extreme. It's amazingly large and flooded with HP. Other dangers like hydra, manticore, most undead, constructs, vermin (including giant...
fond memories of videogame "shadows of mystara" and its OP flasks of alchemist fire :)
It's a bit tragic that reality has shown heavy armor isn't as inflexible as codified in PF.
Eh, masterwork full plate (and really, if you buy full plate, masterwork is the least you should spring for) has a max dexterity of +2. That is more than most normal human warriors will have.
For me, the time you need to put it on is the biggest problem. If you are not expecting combat, you might as well not have it.
DEX adds to many other very important things such as Reflex saves, ranged attacks, ranged touch attacks and Initiative, not just Touch AC and overall AC. Furthermore with Weapon Finesse you can add DEX to hit and with the Agile weapon property you also get DEX to damage, though admittedly not the same modifier if you are using Two-handed weapons. But heavily investing in DEX is a small sacrifice if you are willing to accept you won't be the hardest hitter in exchange for being very difficult to hit, have a great reflex save, a good chance of going first, while still maintaining a decent damage output.
I always play with no armor.
Are you always a monk or a caster?
I always play with no armor.Are you always a monk or a caster?
Well divine casters should be rocking the best armor they can wear and even arcane casters should be using Haramaki or Silken Ceremonial Armor, if nothing else it gives them a place to store armor enchantments. So really, just Monks.
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I always play with no armor.Are you always a monk or a caster?
They won't let me sit at the table in full plate. To be fair, its hard to roll dice with metal gloves on.
Well divine casters should be rocking the best armor they can wear and even arcane casters should be using Haramaki or Silken Ceremonial Armor, if nothing else it gives them a place to store armor enchantments. So really, just Monks.I always play with no armor.Are you always a monk or a caster?
Divine casters don't really count; they wear armor and are usually in melee; I consider them hybrids. I've been in plenty of games where casters aren't using the armors from Ultimate Combat...besides, isn't that what Bracers of Armor are for? :)
And if you really wanted to, you could make an argument for putting armor on a Monk...go with Master of Many Styles, which replaces your flurry, and suddenly you don't have much to lose from wearing armor.
And if you really wanted to, you could make an argument for putting armor on a Monk...go with Master of Many Styles, which replaces your flurry, and suddenly you don't have much to lose from wearing armor.
One of the reasons they're so dip friendly!
On a side note, I use armor on my characters frequently. Most of the time I think the movement speed penalty and check penalties aren't harsh enough to make me not want to be filled with goblin arrows. Most martials I play with start with chainmail and a heavy wooden shield, a few melee weapons, and several slings (a fighter, paladin, or ranger begins with 175 gp, which leaves 20 gp for supplies after getting chainmail and a heavy wooden shield, which is plenty to stock up on a reach weapon, some clubs, some slings, the armor comes with gauntlets, and that usually leaves at least 10-15 gp for additional adventuring supplies).
By higher levels armor is very manageable for most classes. Virtually every spellcaster has some way to take advantage of armor with little to no real drawbacks, and martials have access to things like celestial armor or mithral celestial plate armor (if splatbook material is allowed), which a suit of full plate that is very easy to move in (counts as light armor so you don't have to worry about things like evasion not kicking in, it has a solid AC bonus, and it has a max Dex of something like +7 or so). Mithral Celestial Armor would be the the way to go if you're a very Dex-heavy build that is going to get up to +10 Dex, has no check penalty, and only 5% ASF.
Most of the check penalties on armors aren't that harsh. For example, the breastplate only has a -4, and a masterwork breastplate only has a -3. That's almost entirely offset with a masterwork tool. Once you get into special materials or magical effects you can all but erase most of the dangerous check penalties.
It's a problem if you get dumped into some water, or suddenly have to make a life-or-death climb check.
It's a problem if you get dumped into some water, or suddenly have to make a life-or-death climb check.
If you're in a situation where you have to be making difficult climb checks or swim checks you're in trouble already and in most cases should have known what you were getting into before hand so that you could doff anything extreme if needed.
There are some instances where you're pretty much boned regardless of what sort of armor you're wearing. In most cases you're safer carrying a potion of alter self to turn into a merfolk for a while if you find yourself underwater (you get a swim speed, a +8 racial on swim checks, and can take 10 on swim checks in all cases).
There's a lot of things that can make climbing easier, but wearing armor while climbing may actually save your life. You're usually a pretty easy target dangling about while climbing, so having the higher flat-footed AC may prevent you from having to make checks vs falling in the first place. Meanwhile, climbing ropes tends to be pretty easy (DC 0 for a knotted rope with a brace, then you can get climbing assisting items like mwk tools).