Eagle Shaman & the Roc


Rules Questions

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Liberty's Edge

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Question: How is an Eagle Shaman Druid supposed to wild shape into a Roc?

The Eagle Shaman archetype for the Druid class references wild shaping into a Roc at 6th level as though they were 8th level. The Druid wild shape ability only allows for Huge size. The Roc is Gargantuan. Wild Shape does not allow for the addition of templates to animals they wild shape into. The only way to get a Huge-sized Roc is for it to have the Young template.


You can still wildshape into a young Roc without using any templates. While not completely RAW it can be just a flavor using the general statistics and abilities of a Roc as a base while wildshaping in a Huge bird.

Since the ability modifiers are fixed anyway and don't depend on the actual animal shape taken, I don't see this as a problem.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

Call it typo and move on.
There is a similar issue with 4th level summons adding Roc to the list.


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You could run the wildshape with the statistics of the Roc as an animal companion at 7th level. Then you're dealing with a size large creature.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

MendedWall12 wrote:
You could run the wildshape with the statistics of the Roc as an animal companion at 7th level. Then you're dealing with a size large creature.

Which wouldn't be RAW, but a DM could choose to use that to allow it.


James Risner wrote:
MendedWall12 wrote:
You could run the wildshape with the statistics of the Roc as an animal companion at 7th level. Then you're dealing with a size large creature.
Which wouldn't be RAW, but a DM could choose to use that to allow it.

Correct. :)

I just figured since the raw in this case is a little iffy, a complete set of acceptable mechanical stats might be a good fix. You are correct though, that in a rules forum a house-ruled fix doesn't really fit.

Liberty's Edge

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The question is also largely for PFS. In a home game, as both a GM and a Player, I don't think I'd have a problem coming up with a solution or compromise.

Grand Lodge Contributor

I'm also wondering this for a potential PFS character. I haven't been able to find an authoritative answer yet.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

Pinstripedbarbarian wrote:
I'm also wondering this for a potential PFS character. I haven't been able to find an authoritative answer yet.

It is very clear that without something from Mr Brock or similar, you can't Wild Shape into a Roc or summon a Roc with a 4th level SNA spell.

The Exchange

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

you CAN wild shape into a Roc. it just becomes a grey area that hits table variation, as you're limited to becoming a "Huge" Roc, sizing down the Roc for the Beast Shape spell.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

Seraphimpunk wrote:
you CAN wild shape into a Roc ... "Huge" Roc, sizing down the Roc for the Beast Shape spell.

But without a rule for allowing you to size down a Roc to Huge, you can't ever take that shape. Without a DM Rule 0 you a way.

The Exchange

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

beast shape just says you take the shape of an animal. it doesn't limit you in the spell to animals from the bestiary, or say that it has to exist there to turn into it.
there's no DM Rule zero needed.

I'm of the camp where you can do it, choose an animal from the bestiary, cross check its special abilities with the beast shape spell you're using to see what you pick up, and use the creature's base form, per the size of the beast shape spell. type that up , and keep it with your shapeshifter.

otherwise you need an animal of every size, for every polymorph you do.
the polymorph rules say that you can't change into a creature with a template, so a young roc is off the table. Anyway, all it would do is size down the natural attacks, which is what i'm suggesting anyhow. the end result is the same. The only feat i know of that lets you template your wild shape is Planar Wild Shape.

Paizo is of course welcome to correct me, but then they'd have to tell us whats meant by the eagle shaman, whether an 6th level eagle shaman can indeed take the form of a Huge Roc, or whether the archetype is in error.

until then, i'll continue to change into a Huge dire tiger.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

Seraphimpunk wrote:

beast shape just says you take the shape of an animal. it doesn't limit you in the spell to animals from the bestiary

indeed take the form of a Huge Roc, or whether the archetype is in error.

The spell limits you to an animal, which appears obvious to me but not you, that must be in a write up somewhere. Either in a Bestiary or in the mind of the DM via Rule 0.

My vote goes to archetype in error.


Pinstripedbarbarian wrote:
I'm also wondering this for a potential PFS character. I haven't been able to find an authoritative answer yet.

You have all of the authority you need. It says you can turn into a Roc. It also say when you turn into a Roc your size is huge.

I say you become a Roc as written in the bestiary. The only difference would be that your size is huge. I would not size down the attacks, reach or anything else. I believe that RAW, this is the only solution. Calling it a typo is not a PFS answer. PFS could ban it, but I don't think they have. So, ignoring it is not an option.

Now, to clarify, that would the way I think it should play in PFS because it is RAW driven and has the ability to add additional rules when it feels the need.

In a home game, I agree with the solutions written above.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

Driver 325 yards wrote:
You have all of the authority you need. It says you can turn into a Roc. It also say when you turn into a Roc your size is huge.

If you take this stance, then expect huge table variances. I suspect the majority of tables will reject this form.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Driver 325 yards wrote:
I say you become a Roc as written in the bestiary. The only difference would be that your size is huge. I would not size down the attacks, reach or anything else.

Reach scales down with size automatically. The attacks would be an open question.


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James Risner wrote:
Driver 325 yards wrote:
You have all of the authority you need. It says you can turn into a Roc. It also say when you turn into a Roc your size is huge.
If you take this stance, then expect huge table variances. I suspect the majority of tables will reject this form.

Well my point is that the OP was willing to come to the table with an appropriately powered Roc whose size and attacks were scaled down. Then he was attacked by posters who say, no you can't do that. You can't scale down. There are no rules for scaling down. So ignore it.

I am just pointing out that he could respond to such people by saying, "Ok, since there are no rules for scaling down and you won't let me and I know I can be a Roc and I know I can be huge then I will do exactly what the RAW says." "Now how do you like that?"

Once the nay sayers realize that the OP has the upperhand they will be more than willing to let him bring his down sized Roc into the game.

Now this is the correct outcome. However, to reach that outcome, you have to play hardball with some people.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

Driver 325 yards wrote:
I can be a Roc and I know I can be huge then I will do exactly what the RAW says." "Now how do you like that?"

That is when the DM says "haha, funny. Umm no."

The point is that since the rules don't make sense and they don't tell you how to shape into a Roc or summon a Roc, then there is NO RAW.

Liberty's Edge

Jason Nelson the archetype's writer has said numerous times that he'd included a section allowing shamans to wildshape into giant and young versions of their totem animals (thus allowing huge wolves and small bears). Paizo cut this text - I assume for word count. Unfortunately, as a result, we now have class features that don't work. I've been flagging this subject for FAQing for years now with no luck.

So for PFS, you're screwed.


James Risner wrote:
Driver 325 yards wrote:
I can be a Roc and I know I can be huge then I will do exactly what the RAW says." "Now how do you like that?"

That is when the DM says "haha, funny. Umm no."

The point is that since the rules don't make sense and they don't tell you how to shape into a Roc or summon a Roc, then there is NO RAW.

And that is when the player says, ha ha funny, yes, see you later. I will go play with a reasonable GM

Further, I am sure there are PFS GMs that will let you play the Roc.

Grand Lodge

Perhaps this is an exception?


Feral wrote:

Jason Nelson the archetype's writer has said numerous times that he'd included a section allowing shamans to wildshape into giant and young versions of their totem animals (thus allowing huge wolves and small bears). Paizo cut this text - I assume for word count. Unfortunately, as a result, we now have class features that don't work. I've been flagging this subject for FAQing for years now with no luck.

So for PFS, you're screwed.

Oh, cool! I once played a Tiger Shaman, and just when I got Wild Shape I did more research and realized that I was relegating myself into more of a summoning role since being a Dire Tiger was missing out on a lot due to being only Large.


I think a Roc with the young template should be quite valid.

And speaking of Rocs, The Roc's "photobombing" of the thread is hilarious. There need to be more Roc threads.

Lantern Lodge

Supporting an FAQ for this.

As someone who dropped a Eagle Shaman Dwarf ideal due to this, I'm supporting an FAQ for this question.

The Exchange

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Feral wrote:

Jason Nelson the archetype's writer has said numerous times that he'd included a section allowing shamans to wildshape into giant and young versions of their totem animals (thus allowing huge wolves and small bears). Paizo cut this text - I assume for word count. Unfortunately, as a result, we now have class features that don't work. I've been flagging this subject for FAQing for years now with no luck.

So for PFS, you're screwed.

that makes sense. there's a lot about a lot of shaman options, not just eagle, that seems chopped.

The Exchange

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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

i still contend any druid should be able to wild shape into sizes as limited by beast shape, not limited by the bestiary entries.

paizo cuts down on what's needed for bestiary by providing templates like young and giant.
so when they need to use a Huge Dire Wolf in an adventure: they grab dire wolf, and apply the giant template. thus they're never going to print a huge dire wolf, or a huge dire tiger, or a large Roc. they have the tools they need to represent those creatures in the game already.

and so do druids. if a young roc or a giant dire wolf can exist in the game and he can fight it, and summon it, he should be able to transform into it.

giant and young templates should be open for wild shape, and an FAQ or errata should put them in as an exception for the rules on polymorphing into templated creatures. They already have feats that specifically break the template rule:

Planar Wild Shape wrote:

You can infuse your wild shape with planar strength.

Prerequisites: Wild shape class feature, Knowledge (planes) 5 ranks.
Benefit: When you use wild shape to take the form of an animal, you can expend an additional daily use of your wild shape class feature to add the celestial template or fiendish template to your animal form. (Good druids must use the celestial template, while evil druids must use the fiendish template.) If your form has the celestial template and you score a critical threat against an evil creature while using your form's natural weapons, you gain a +2 bonus on the attack roll to confirm the critical hit. The same bonus applies if your form has the fiendish template and you score a critical threat against a good creature.

rather than require an additional feat to transform into a Young Roc or a Giant Dire Tiger, it should be something all druids can do. this would fix the text removed from shamans, as well as clarifying how existing creatures can be re-sized for use with beast shape spells and wild shape.


The problem with the argument that you aren't limited to the bestiary is the issue of natural attacks. Bigger creatures tend to have more or nastier ones, so if you were automatically allowed to scale down, it'd negatively impact the range of valid choices.

In addition, with no stat block for an animal, (other than resized ones), how do you know what its natural attacks are? Who decides what's fair? Well, the GM does - but then if you resort to rule 0, you can probably get a Huge Roc anyway.


Fortunately, giant and young don't add natural attacks, so allowing them isn't bad as a house rule.


Seraphimpunk, I still don't understand what keeps you from shaping into a young Roc (i.e., a huge one, or even large). As you can wildshape into huge birds with beast shape III. That does, however, not mean that you apply the young template to the druid, since the ability modifiers etc. are already given by the spell, not by templates.

Bizbag, I doubt that the number of attacks really becomes much of an issue. The damage dice get scaled down and there are enough creatures of any size with lots of attacks to shape into. The Gargantuan Roc has just as many regular attacks as the Medium Leopard (and the latter gets pounce and rake attacks)

The Exchange

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Isil-zha wrote:

Seraphimpunk, I still don't understand what keeps you from shaping into a young Roc (i.e., a huge one, or even large). As you can wildshape into huge birds with beast shape III. That does, however, not mean that you apply the young template to the druid, since the ability modifiers etc. are already given by the spell, not by templates.

Bizbag, I doubt that the number of attacks really becomes much of an issue. The damage dice get scaled down and there are enough creatures of any size with lots of attacks to shape into. The Gargantuan Roc has just as many regular attacks as the Medium Leopard (and the latter gets pounce and rake attacks)

Isil-zha, I agree. If you could take the form of a young Roc, you use the ability modifiers granted by the spell/ability that lets you change, not the Str/Dex/Con etc of a young roc. The template has no impact on stats for polymorph purposes. In effect all it does is size down the natural attacks of the creature. Normally however polymorph rules don't permit you to polymorph into a creature with a template applied, it has the added benefit of not confusing new players into making mistakes in changing a creature's size. To get to a young roc though, you need to apply the young template to the roc. making it an illegal option RAW.

I think its fine to change into [size allowed by spell] [creature permitted by spell]. all the spell does is let you flavor the creature you're transforming into. there is some disconnect though, as we need creatures to turn into to figure out what special abilities and attacks they get, so of course we look to the bestiary for some examples. I just don't think the bestiary is the be-all/end-all of Animals to change into. In my home games, go ahead, turn into a small Tiger or a Tiny Roc. Try it in PFS and you'll hit a lot of table variation though, so of course people like to say "here is the monster i'm turning into, its in this book, and additional resources say that its valid to turn into this."

Bizbag wrote:
The problem with the argument that you aren't limited to the bestiary is the issue of natural attacks. Bigger creatures tend to have more or nastier ones, so if you were automatically allowed to scale down, it'd negatively impact the range of valid choices.

lets take a look at a Large Roc, a Large Giant Vulture (bestiary 3 thats its name, not a template ) and a Large Eagle. Roc sized down from Gargantuan, a Giant Vulture is naturally large, and Eagle sized up from small for Beast Shape II spell.

A small eagle has bite/talon/talon all at 1d4.
Large just means they get three attacks at 1d8 each as they size up.

A gargantuan roc has bite/talon/talon at 2d8/2d6/2d6.
bringing it down to Large just means 1d8/1d6 plus grab/1d6 plus grab

A large Giant Vulture has a bite attack at 2d6

so it seems like they just offer some variety. an eagle has nice uniform attack damage but no special abilities. a roc just has a nasty bite, its talons are actually worse than an eagle sized up. but because its Beast Shape II we get a bonus of the grab ability on its talons. and the giant vulture just has the one bite, but its a little nastier than the other two birds at the large size.

Is that broken? no, its just variety. there's already an underlying scale of balance in attacks and creature size. there's plenty of land animals that are small, medium, or large to turn into. Its when you start breaking it down to categories of birds, sharks, dinosaurs, bears, wolves/canines etc that you really have a limited amount of shapes to transform into if you look strictly at the bestiary, even though the spells allow you to turn into larger or smaller animals.


Seraphimpunk, that is exactly what I said regarding the ability modifiers. Can you point me towards the section were it is stated that you cannot wildshape into templated creatures?

edit: found the passage, but I'd argue that RAI is not to apply the template after you polymorph, not to disallow the templated form per se. But this is not an RAW discussion anymore.


Isil-zha, here you go.

CRB p212 wrote:
Unless otherwise noted, polymorph spells cannot be used to change into specific individuals. Although many of the fine details can be controlled, your appearance is always that of a generic member of that creature’s type. Polymorph spells cannot be used to assume the form of a creature with a template or an advanced version of a creature.

Note: Wildshape is as per various Polymorph spells so it follows the rules on Polymorph spells.

- Gauss

The Exchange

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

even if it isn't to allow you to take the form of creature with a template, or a creature and then apply a template, it doesn't quite matter. if you apply the template before or after, you're getting the stats from the spell anyway. at that point it becomes semantics.

"i'm not turning into a Giant Wolf, I'm turning into a wolf and applying the Giant template."

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

Seraphimpunk wrote:
"i'm not turning into a Giant Wolf, I'm turning into a wolf and applying the Giant template."

One isn't allowed due to no stat block in a Bestiary (Giant Wolf) and one isn't allowed due to no templates (wolf with Giant template.)

The Exchange

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Quote:
One isn't allowed due to no stat block in a Bestiary (Giant Wolf)...

that's the debate =)

RAW option 1 is frowned on. option 2 is illegal.

if more people start doing it in home games though, or clamoring for it, i think we can make a case to allow polymorphs into creatures with the young and giant template applied (once) and plea for paizo to change it.


@Seraphim:

In that example, I concede it's not unbalanced an option, in that case.

I'm still concerned over the possibilities, though. Some creatures have abilities that would be far more dangerous for a creature of a different size. What about a Huge Weasel? It only gets the one attack, but the damage is automatic; the victim has to CMB their way out on their turn (actually this sounds like a clever anti-caster tactic.

What happens if a new book introduces a new Plant that can Attach with four attack, but is mitigated by being Tiny and having low Strength? Can you just say "I'm a Large version of that" (Feed me, Seymour!)

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Bbauzh ap Aghauzh wrote:

Question: How is an Eagle Shaman Druid supposed to wild shape into a Roc?

The Eagle Shaman archetype for the Druid class references wild shaping into a Roc at 6th level as though they were 8th level. The Druid wild shape ability only allows for Huge size. The Roc is Gargantuan. Wild Shape does not allow for the addition of templates to animals they wild shape into. The only way to get a Huge-sized Roc is for it to have the Young template.

This is the text in question:

At 6th level, an eagle shaman’s wild shape ability functions at her druid level – 2. If she takes on the form of an eagle or roc, she instead uses her druid level + 2.

The text does not say that you get the option of turning into a roc AT 6th level. What it says is that you get your totemic wildshaping at 6th. The bonuses for taking eagle and roc form are in a separate sentence. So at 6th level your valid form would be that of a Giant Eagle with the Beast Shape 3 spell to draw your abilities from to the limit allowed by the form. Which is pretty much the same deal you're going to get if you choose the druidic roc animal companion option.

There was probably never intention of letting you wildshape into a bird large enough to warrant it's own zipcode.

Sczarni

Was the author unaware that a Druid cannot wildshape into a gargantuan-sized animal?


Nefreet wrote:
Was the author unaware that a Druid cannot wildshape into a gargantuan-sized animal?

That's the most likely scenario; that or he didn't realize there were stricter restrictions on templates and resizing.

That or he intended a Druid to wait for the Gargantuan Wild Shape epic feat.


Bbauzh ap Aghauzh wrote:

Question: How is an Eagle Shaman Druid supposed to wild shape into a Roc?

The Eagle Shaman archetype for the Druid class references wild shaping into a Roc at 6th level as though they were 8th level. The Druid wild shape ability only allows for Huge size. The Roc is Gargantuan. Wild Shape does not allow for the addition of templates to animals they wild shape into. The only way to get a Huge-sized Roc is for it to have the Young template.

The RAW says he can turn into a Roc and there has been no errata on this, so what is the problem? He can turn into a Huge Roc. This huge Roc does not have to be a Roc with a template. It can just be a special type of Huge Roc that only this Eagle Shaman can turn into.

Other than that, a Huge size Roc has Huge size reach and weapon damage.

I love how every against the plain language in the Eagle Shaman keep proclaiming that the only Huge size Roc is a Roc with a template. Well, not in this case, so live with it.


When does he gain the ability to WS into a roc? Is it when he can WS into S or M creatures? Is it when he can do L creatures? Is it when he can do H creatures?

Can he just size down any number of categories to get the animal he wants? Or is it only one size category, to Huge?

Do you get where I'm going with this? Answers to any of the above questions are ones you invent, because there is no such thing as a RAW roc without a template that isn't Gargantuan.

SHOULD there be? Oh my yes. Is there? No.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

Driver 325 yards wrote:
The RAW says he can turn into a Roc ... He can turn into a Huge Roc.

RAW doesn't say anything of the sort. Without a rule or stat block compliant with Wild Shape rules it doesn't matter what the rules in Eagle Shaman say. An Eagle Shaman can't be a Roc RAW.

If they had chosen to say "Young Roc" or "Animal Companion Roc" then your statement would be true, but until there is Errata this isn't clear and isn't RAW.


It has been reported (I cannot find the reference to verify it) that the author, Jason Nelson, was aware of the rules regarding not being able to change into a Roc. The report states that the author wrote a section allowing shamans to apply the Young or Giant templates to their shaman related wild shape forms but that it was removed by the developers.

Again, I cannot confirm this but it would explain the problem.

Because that section does not exist (was not written or was removed in development) you have a situation where you cannot turn into a Roc despite the archetype indicating it is an option.

This type of situation is not unprecedented (Titan Mauler?).

- Gauss


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Which is why I find house-ruling it completely acceptable, but it is wrong to insist it is RAW.


Doesn't RAW stand for rules as written. It is written that an Eagle Shaman can become a huge Roc. Deal with it. He is an exception to the rule.

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