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Does an Ifrit Bard with Burning Hands as a spell-like ability meet the prerequisites for Fire Music, or must he still multi-class?
Prerequisites: Spellcraft 5 ranks, ability to cast bard spells, ability to cast an arcane fire spell from some other spellcasting class.
Benefit: When you cast a bard spell that deals damage, you may replace the spell's normal damage with fire damage or split the spell's damage so that half of it is the normal damage type and half is fire damage.
If you cast a summon monster spell as a bard spell, you may choose to give the summoned creature a fiery appearance, which gives it fire resistance 5 and adds +1 fire damage to all of its natural attacks. The creature sheds dim light in a 5-foot radius. This aspect of the feat has no effect if the creature already has the fire subtype.
When you use this feat, the affected spell gains the fire descriptor.
I noticed this question was asked some time ago HERE, but that was before the recent ruling that SLAs count as arcane spells for purposes of meeting feat requirements. What I'm hung up on is the phrase, "from some other spellcasting class".
I just got an Ifrit boon at PacifiCon, and if this works I'm totally making an Ifrit Bard for PFS.
It's an arcane fire spell that isn't on the bard spell list. Looks legitimate to me.
I believe it would be legal. Let's walk through it.
The FAQ states spell like abilities meet qualifications/pre-reqs.
It also states we use the Universal Monster rules to determine if a racial spell like ability is arcane or divine, and what version of the spell it emulates.
Both FAQs found here
Going by these rules, it would be Arcane, since it is a Wiz/Sorc spell (highest priority) and we would use the Wiz/Sorc version, for the same reason.
Since you are using a Wiz/Sorc version of an Arcane [Fire] spell like ability, and spell likes meet casting requirements, I think you are in the clear.
I would say no too, because the SLA isn't coming from another class, but from a race.
Spellcraft 5 ranks, ability to cast bard spells, ability to cast an arcane fire spell from some other spellcasting class.
Ah, but does the casting have to come from the other class, or just the spell.
The phrase "from some other spellcasting class" can be read to modify either "cast," to indicate the source of the casting, or "spell" indicating the source of the spell.
Burning Hands is a spell from another class, you just don't get the casting from a class.
And if the intent of the FAQ is to let SLA's qualify, I don't see it as an issue.
Owner - D20 Hobbies
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I would say no too, because the SLA isn't coming from another class, but from a race.
I'd side on the no came because the "from another class", the SLA is not a class. The SLA FAQ qualifies you for "able to cast x level spells."
Also, this is where when building a character. A player should consider how much twisting is required to interpret the rules. Characters shouldn't rely on things that need to be explained using multiple FAQ to convince someone it works.
I would say no too, because the SLA isn't coming from another class, but from a race.I'd side on the no came because the "from another class", the SLA is not a class. The SLA FAQ qualifies you for "able to cast x level spells."
Also, this is where when building a character. A player should consider how much twisting is required to interpret the rules. Characters shouldn't rely on things that need to be explained using multiple FAQ to convince someone it works.
The original FAQ didn't mention anything about counting as X level spells, that is something developed through dev commentary more than anything else. It said, Dim Door SLA counts as "cast Dim Door" pre-req.
So burning hands SLA should definitely meet "arcane fire spell". That leaves the "from another class" part.
I can totally see how different people are interpreting that part of the pre-req differently. But I don't see it as "twisting" anything, and I hate it when people imply there is dishonesty in the way other people read a rule. FAQs are just clarifications on how the rules already work, so you aren't relying on FAQs, just the rules.
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Owner - D20 Hobbies
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imply there is dishonesty
No dishonesty was implied in my post.
I just can't think of any way to describe that trying to assert that an SLA is "from another class" when it isn't from a class. Twist seemed to fit. If you don't like twist, think of something.
The key point: The SLA is not a class.
If you had an SLA from a class (like Paladin Detect Evil) then I'd say that fits "from another class".
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I just can't think of any way to describe that trying to assert that an SLA is "from another class" when it isn't from a class. Twist seemed to fit. If you don't like twist, think of something.
As the OP, the reason why I asked this question was because of the wording found in the SLA FAQ:
A monster's spell-like abilities are presumed to be the sorcerer/wizard versions. If the spell in question is not a sorcerer/wizard spell, then default to cleric, druid, bard, paladin, and ranger, in that order.
For spell-like abilities gained from a creature's race or type (including PC races), the same rule should apply: the creature's spell-like abilities are presumed to be the sorcerer/wizard versions.
A reasonable argument can be made that an Ifrit's Burning Hands spell-like ability counts as a sorcerer/wizard spell-like ability, and thus would qualify as a prerequisite for the Fire Music feat. This is why I posted this thread in the first place, to get other opinions on the matter, since I wasn't entirely sure myself.
I assure you no "twisting" was involved.
I'm also not dead set on either interpretation. I had a nifty little idea in my head to combine this feat with the Affinity of the Elements trait to increase the DCs of my damaging Bard spells, but it's not worth the table variation I would likely receive. I can just go with Spell Focus instead.
Thanks all. I doubt a FAQ would ever be issued for this "corner case", so I'm fine putting it to rest.
I'd allow it at my table. Even though the wording is a gray area, it fits the spirit of the feat, and doesn't seem to "break" anything.
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By raw, I'd have to say no since the feat specifically calls out that the spell must from a class. If class was not important the prerequisite would have just been, "ability to cast an arcane fire spell". However, I might allow it at my table since it fits flavor-wise and since fire is a very common resistance the feat is not particularly strong.
By RAW I don't believe that the build would fit the requirements. I would probably allow it at my table.
I'm gonna go with no as well. Everytime I've seen sla count towards a prereq was when the wording was "able to cast x number level x type spells". This imo is a bit different in that it calls out a class who can cast it, and not the type.
It looks like it works, by RAW. You're getting a fire spell that is not on the bard list.
However, it's a terrible feat.
Bard just plain doesn't get many damage-dealing spells, and fire is the worst energy type for a spell to be anyway. Plus, in the specific case of the bard, most of the damage spells are sonic, which is the most sought after / premium energy type and thus the spells tend to be weak for their level to make up for it. Making them fire is a sucker's bet.
And bard is a poor class for summoning, his spell levels just don't keep up like a wizard or cleric does, and he doesn't get to jump to higher level SM spells like a Summoner does.
TL;DR: It works, but you shouldn't bother taking it.