Aldarionn |
Well the question is what abilities move with the flow of accelerated time? Certainly Regeneration would, meaning a Mythic Time Stop would take Baphomet from 1 HP to full health just on his regeneration alone. Spell durations would also move with the flow of accelerated time, because a spell needs a duration longer than the duration of Time Stop to affect creatures in normal time. IE a spell that lasts 1 round per level cast both outside or inside of Time Stop would continue to tick off rounds inside time stop.
We have to look at what specifically does NOT happen during Time Stop. Fortunately the Augmented Mythic Time Stop entry says creatures do not gain the benefits of sleep or rest during the duration of Augmented Mythic Time Stop. It doesn't mention anything else, so again by the RAW a creature that spends 24 hours in Augmented Mythic Time Stop would theoretically replenish Mythic Points, per-day abilities like Spell Like Abilities and other daily abilities assuming they can get around the rest requirements for these abilities to refresh. Demons have no need of rest or sleep, so it seems logical that even if 24 apparent hours have elapsed, that would satisfy the requirements for him to replenish his MP and per-day SLA's since many of the rest of his abilities move with him during Time Stop.
Now I am 100% certain this is not the INTENT, but by the RAW I do not see anything preventing it. I would most certainly use the ability to draw enemies into more favorable combats because I feel that is something Baphomet would do as a highly intelligent Demon Lord out to murder the people that foiled his plans, but I would not allow him to use Mythic Time Stop to regenerate his SLA's because I'm positive the intent of that ability does not include creating an infinite Time Stop loop.
Lochar |
1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Honestly, when my party gets there I'm liable to do this.
Augment Time Stop before he leaves.
Teleport in.
24 hours to cast Unhallow with Silence for anyone not a CE worshipper of Baphomet.
Wait 2.9 hours.
Summon 24 Half-Fiend Minotaurs into position.
Summon the labyrinth minotaur.
Summon the three demons of choice.
Wait.
Roll initiative.
Have Baphomet sigh when the players crap themselves over the new horde of enemies surrounding them.
Alleran |
Except it's 27 hours in the Mythic Time Stop. Surely that's more than enough time to "recharge" his spells per day.
Six seconds, technically. The spell text is quite clear:
"You are free to act for 1d4+1 rounds of apparent time."
Emphasis mine. Even if you use a full 24 hours or more to blow all your SLAs, spells, mythic abilities etc. for the whole day, that still only takes place within six seconds of actual time. It just seems like longer to you because you're not stopping time, you're just moving so fast within it that everything else seems frozen. It's not actually 24+ hours.
Aldarionn |
So I did the math and found out that if your characters hit every encounter and got the xp for everything then their xp would be over 9,000,000 and this is without random encounters. Also if they got every mythic trial then they would make 10th tier. Just thought this was interesting.
Yeah I noticed that the amount of XP you can earn in this AP is absurd, especially if you manage to kill Baphomet. That fight alone is enough to level you from the bottom of 18 to mid 19. Seems a little crazy.
Broggly |
"If the PCs have made an alliance with Alderpash, they may be able to control Igramalash—see area O for details."
So, did I just miss that bit? Or is this supposed to just say that Alderpash knows enough about Igramalash that his knowledge will help manipulate the Inverted Giant (such as telepathically sending him images of places so he'll teleport there to get out of the room)?
brad2411 |
"If the PCs have made an alliance with Alderpash, they may be able to control Igramalash—see area O for details."
So, did I just miss that bit? Or is this supposed to just say that Alderpash knows enough about Igramalash that his knowledge will help manipulate the Inverted Giant (such as telepathically sending him images of places so he'll teleport there to get out of the room)?
dangerous of these foes, and that they should avoid a direct
confrontation with her. His advice is to travel to the deep
isolation cell (area M) and release Igramalash. He can
explain to the PCs how to do so (see Releasing Igramalash
on page 44), and warns them that once the monster is loose,
it will attack them at once. Ylleshka will arrive swiftly after
the creature is freed, however, at which point the PCs can
use the mythic inverted giant against the warden.....
Pretty much releasing Igramalash causes Ylleshka to come and
once that happens Igramalash attacks Ylleshka at least in my opinion.
James Jacobs Creative Director |
brad2411 wrote:So I did the math and found out that if your characters hit every encounter and got the xp for everything then their xp would be over 9,000,000 and this is without random encounters. Also if they got every mythic trial then they would make 10th tier. Just thought this was interesting.Yeah I noticed that the amount of XP you can earn in this AP is absurd, especially if you manage to kill Baphomet. That fight alone is enough to level you from the bottom of 18 to mid 19. Seems a little crazy.
Nope; not crazy. The adventure actually doesn't expect you to fight and kill Baphomet... but if you do, you can indeed start the next adventure at 19th level instead of 18th. Note that the difference in power between 18th and 19th level is pretty minimal.
Furthermore...regardless of what level you start at... you'll be 20th level about halfway through the last adventure anyway.
James Jacobs Creative Director |
2 people marked this as a favorite. |
So I did the math and found out that if your characters hit every encounter and got the xp for everything then their xp would be over 9,000,000 and this is without random encounters. Also if they got every mythic trial then they would make 10th tier. Just thought this was interesting.
They should exit this adventure at mythic tier 9. Once they gain enough tiers to go up to tier 10... they should stop. Achieving tier 10 should be a special something saved for the last adventure.
Tangent101 |
Aldarionn wrote:brad2411 wrote:So I did the math and found out that if your characters hit every encounter and got the xp for everything then their xp would be over 9,000,000 and this is without random encounters. Also if they got every mythic trial then they would make 10th tier. Just thought this was interesting.Yeah I noticed that the amount of XP you can earn in this AP is absurd, especially if you manage to kill Baphomet. That fight alone is enough to level you from the bottom of 18 to mid 19. Seems a little crazy.Nope; not crazy. The adventure actually doesn't expect you to fight and kill Baphomet... but if you do, you can indeed start the next adventure at 19th level instead of 18th. Note that the difference in power between 18th and 19th level is pretty minimal.
Furthermore...regardless of what level you start at... you'll be 20th level about halfway through the last adventure anyway.
What I find interesting is that I believe Deskani is a CR30 foe, while Baphomet is CR27. Given the players are two levels and one tier below what they'd be facing Deskani, they're pretty much at the same power potential they'd be (with the exception of perhaps one having a Heraldic boost).
Given the Big D hasn't died yet either... it's strongly looking like none of the Demon Lords will be permanently killed. Why would the Big D risk his existence when he can just try again in a couple hundred years when those pesky mythic PCs are dead?
Alleran |
What I find interesting is that I believe Deskani is a CR30 foe, while Baphomet is CR27.
Deskari is CR 29.
Areelu Vorlesh is CR 27, the same as Baphomet.
9th tier you're immortal.
Nah. It's not until 10th tier that the Immortal ability really becomes powerful. At 9th tier, you're definitely hard to kill, but a weapon capable of bypassing epic damage reduction only needs to have a total bonus of +6 or higher. Per the rules in Mythic Adventures:
"DR/Epic: A type of damage reduction, DR/epic can be overcome only by a weapon with an enhancement bonus of +6 or greater (Pathfinder RPG Bestiary 299). Weapons with special abilities also count as epic for the purposes of overcoming damage reduction if the total bonus value of all of their abilities (including the enhancement bonus) is +6 or greater."
So something like a +4 flaming ghost touch longsword technically counts, because that bypasses Epic DR. Definitely annoying to CDG or critical hit a 9th tier to death with one of those, and they're out of reach in terms of wealth to the vast majority of the world, but by the time you reach 9th tier the Big Guns you go up against will all be packing something along those lines, if they aren't already bypassing Epic DR with their natural weapons. Especially since a mythic creature (or creature of "greater power") can potentially kill you even if they don't have a +6 weapon.
At 10th tier, it's that you can only be killed by a CDG or critical hit from an artifact. Which means that if the GM wants to kill your character at 10th tier, he has to hand out artifacts to his monsters. Otherwise, you're coming right back once Jack Bauer has finished saving the world.
Although a mythic ability that turns critical hits into regular hits would be really useful. I think there actually is one that does that.
(EDIT: Found it. Shrug It Off on the Guardian path. Spend 1 MP as an immediate action to turn a critical hit into a normal hit, which could let you respawn as per normal. Still, you can run out of MP. Best to get an item that makes you immune to criticals somehow. That way, only a CDG will do it.)
Lochar |
At 10th tier, it's that you can only be killed by a CDG or critical hit from an artifact. Which means that if the GM wants to kill your character at 10th tier, he has to hand out artifacts to his monsters. Otherwise, you're coming right back once Jack Bauer has finished saving the world.
Although a mythic ability that turns critical hits into regular hits would be really useful. I think there actually is one that does that.
(EDIT: Found it. Shrug It Off on the Guardian path. Spend 1 MP as an immediate action to turn a critical hit into a normal...
Better, at 10th tier you recoup 1 MP an hour, on top of the refresh at 24 hours. Since it takes you a day to recover, you come back with at least one MP.
James Jacobs Creative Director |
And in fact, the construction of the last adventure specifically takes into account the fact that the PCs are immortal. Basically... there is a VERY aggressive timer the PCs are up against in that last adventure that more or less forces them to, as the movies are fond of saying, GO GO GO!
A TPK more or less chews a block of time out of their timer before something really bad happens.
James Jacobs Creative Director |
I guess the party magic item crafters will be disappointed then with their chances to turn their WBL into more valuable magical goods. ^^
By the time you get to the last adventure I would hope that the focus is on "Oh boy let's finish this off and use what we've been building up our power for over the past 19 levels and 9 tiers." AKA: The time for "turning WBL into more valuable magical goods" is the first 5 adventures, not the 6th one.
If not... that's too bad... but with the inclusion of immortality at tier 9... there's not really any other option for adventure design at that point.
Sc8rpi8n_mjd |
If not... that's too bad... but with the inclusion of immortality at tier 9... there's not really any other option for adventure design at that point.
Why do you say so? I think that even if the characters resurrect automatically, if you put powerful enemies in their way they may screw up even if they are inmortal. I don't see the need to always include a timer.
Tier 10 is more complicated to deal with.
magnuskn |
magnuskn wrote:I guess the party magic item crafters will be disappointed then with their chances to turn their WBL into more valuable magical goods. ^^By the time you get to the last adventure I would hope that the focus is on "Oh boy let's finish this off and use what we've been building up our power for over the past 19 levels and 9 tiers." AKA: The time for "turning WBL into more valuable magical goods" is the first 5 adventures, not the 6th one.
If not... that's too bad... but with the inclusion of immortality at tier 9... there's not really any other option for adventure design at that point.
Don't worry, I don't see having a timer as a bad thing at such high levels, because the shenanigans players can get up to at that level of power are already crazy enough without the additional worry what they could do with even more self-chosen swag. ^^
Lochar |
James Jacobs wrote:
If not... that's too bad... but with the inclusion of immortality at tier 9... there's not really any other option for adventure design at that point.Why do you say so? I think that even if the characters resurrect automatically, if you put powerful enemies in their way they may screw up even if they are inmortal. I don't see the need to always include a timer.
Tier 10 is more complicated to deal with.
Give a high level player an infinite amount of time to deal with something and they'll figure out a way to overcome the challenge without it being a challenge.
Time limitations at this level are part and parcel of the challenge. "Yes, if you had several weeks you could craft an artifact solely designed to shatter the McGuffin. However, you have 48... well 47 now, hours before Golarion and the Abyss become one."
Aldarionn |
Yeah I would say a timer helps. If the party gets bogged down in superfluous BS like crafting magic items they think will help them against a BBEG, that BBEG might just pull off his plan to dominate the world in the mean time.
Also, if they want to make a change to an item in a short period of time that's what the Upgradeable feature on a Legendary Item is there for. Take the hyper-expensive piece of useless loot you just got and spend 8 hours upgrading your Legendary Item using the loot for fuel. It's quick, it's limited to the type of item the character already has, and at a certain point there is nothing more the character can do with it.
I'm extremely anxious to see the 6th adventure and really wrap my head around the campaign as a whole. My players are just about to finish the 2nd book and things are just starting to get good.
James Jacobs Creative Director |
James Jacobs wrote:
If not... that's too bad... but with the inclusion of immortality at tier 9... there's not really any other option for adventure design at that point.Why do you say so? I think that even if the characters resurrect automatically, if you put powerful enemies in their way they may screw up even if they are inmortal. I don't see the need to always include a timer.
Tier 10 is more complicated to deal with.
Tier 10 is indeed more complicated to deal with, and that's really what I meant to mention rather than tier 9. It's only the last adventure where the PCs become tier 10 that things get really tricky.
And "always including a timer" is blatantly incorrect. We almost NEVER include timers in our adventures, because in most situations, a timer is a bad idea. Sure... there are IMPLIED timers all the time, but actual mechanics for timers worked into adventures are very rare.
Lochar |
If you're going to burn 3 MP to augment timestop to create an item, go ahead.
As a DM, I'll point out that it's still six seconds of apparent time and no you don't get your 3 MP back.
Create Greater Demiplane is a 9th level spell with a six hour casting time. While you can cast it in the above time stop to negate the casting time, it's still only at best flowing time of double time, no faster.
The fun thing is, mythic time stop also specifically calls out you don't get the benefits of rest so no invoking 3rd tier's recuperation ability.
Sc8rpi8n_mjd |
Tier 10 is indeed more complicated to deal with, and that's really what I meant to mention rather than tier 9. It's only the last adventure where the PCs become tier 10 that things get really tricky.And "always including a timer" is blatantly incorrect. We almost NEVER include timers in our adventures, because in most situations, a timer is a bad idea. Sure... there are IMPLIED timers all the time, but actual mechanics for timers worked into adventures are very rare.
You misunderstood what I was saying. I was specifically talking about adventures with Tier 9 characters, not every AP.
I wasn't talking about timer mechanics either.
James Jacobs Creative Director |
James Jacobs wrote:
Tier 10 is indeed more complicated to deal with, and that's really what I meant to mention rather than tier 9. It's only the last adventure where the PCs become tier 10 that things get really tricky.And "always including a timer" is blatantly incorrect. We almost NEVER include timers in our adventures, because in most situations, a timer is a bad idea. Sure... there are IMPLIED timers all the time, but actual mechanics for timers worked into adventures are very rare.
You misunderstood what I was saying. I was specifically talking about adventures with Tier 9 characters, not every AP.
I wasn't talking about timer mechanics either.
Did I answer your question though?
If not... re-ask the question, please, so that I can start fresh with a more accurate answer?
magnuskn |
And "always including a timer" is blatantly incorrect. We almost NEVER include timers in our adventures, because in most situations, a timer is a bad idea. Sure... there are IMPLIED timers all the time, but actual mechanics for timers worked into adventures are very rare.
Well, of course timers are not always included, but a good number of adventure paths have them in the last module, like Jade Regent and Carrion Crown.
Lochar |
Yeah, you did. Thanks!
Don't you think that maybe that Tier 10 improved inmortality complicates things too much? I mean, an artifact is a very specific game element, so that limits your design choices (arming every major monster with an artifact-level weapon).
Which is the point of the timer. Yes, you can't fully die even to those Balors vorpal'ing your butt. However, if you've only got a few days to stop something losing 24 hours is a big enough issue.
j b 200 |
James Jacobs wrote:And "always including a timer" is blatantly incorrect. We almost NEVER include timers in our adventures, because in most situations, a timer is a bad idea. Sure... there are IMPLIED timers all the time, but actual mechanics for timers worked into adventures are very rare.Well, of course timers are not always included, but a good number of adventure paths have them in the last module, like Jade Regent and Carrion Crown.
Second Darkness also has a pretty good timer mechanic in the 6th book.
James Jacobs Creative Director |
1 person marked this as a favorite. |
James Jacobs wrote:And "always including a timer" is blatantly incorrect. We almost NEVER include timers in our adventures, because in most situations, a timer is a bad idea. Sure... there are IMPLIED timers all the time, but actual mechanics for timers worked into adventures are very rare.Well, of course timers are not always included, but a good number of adventure paths have them in the last module, like Jade Regent and Carrion Crown.
Huh. Fair enough. I guess I should have said "I rarely if ever put timers in adventures I develop." I didn't develop Jade Regent or Carrion Crown.
James Jacobs Creative Director |
magnuskn wrote:Second Darkness also has a pretty good timer mechanic in the 6th book.James Jacobs wrote:And "always including a timer" is blatantly incorrect. We almost NEVER include timers in our adventures, because in most situations, a timer is a bad idea. Sure... there are IMPLIED timers all the time, but actual mechanics for timers worked into adventures are very rare.Well, of course timers are not always included, but a good number of adventure paths have them in the last module, like Jade Regent and Carrion Crown.
Good example. That's the type of timer I prefer (this one I did develop); one that imparts a sense of urgency but one that the PCs can, through their actions, manipulate.
Which is, actually, the same kind of thing that happens in the last WotR adventure.
brad2411 |
Ok so my group of 3 just did the Ylleshka and Igramalash trap fight. She came really quick the turn after he was released. and then 2 rounds after that the fight was over. Igramalash was taken out by my wizard with a channeled power quicken augmented mythic disintegrate spell (162d6's). He also threw in a horrid wilting for good cause (another 18d6). Ylleshka was facing our cleric that has an AC of 45 so she could not hit her on anything less then a nat 20 and the cleric hit on 4 attacks and one critical also killing her off.
If it continues to go like this Baphomet will be killed in one round.
Sloanzilla |
I wonder if a fantasy world could have some sort of distinction between free-willed corruption and involuntary corruption.
I feel kind of bad for the herald. There he was, doing his herald thing, but being a good herald in Pathfinder means that you have a huge target on your back, since it is an apparently acceptable way you can snub a god w/o breaking the rules. So he gets kidnapped and tortured and finally, after his heart gets ripped out, he turns evil.
Circumstances are pretty unforgiving in the Pathfinder world. His turning evil was not really his fault, but more the fault of extreme trauma and some magical dark ritual. Yet if he dies, he still gets the evil punishment. This is pretty common- there are all kinds of formerly-good Whispering Tyrant playthings that are doomed for eternity. This is not the same as a free-willed being opting to take evil actions due to his or her own interests.
Is that somehow a requirement of fantasy, or could you have a world where beings, upon death, are more or less absolved of evil actions that were not realistically their fault?
Tangent101 |
In the non-sparkly vampire stories, just being turned into a vampire means your soul is damned for all eternity. This is even if you were a noble and decent person prior to your turning. Your soul is damned.
So I don't see any problem with a paragon of decently and nobility being corrupted and then damned forever by a demon lord who was pissed off after being shanked.
brad2411 |
With a +22 fort save, it failed two Forts? What was the DC?
And yeah, an average of 567 damage on those two fails is bad.
Disintegrate DC 36. Save rolled for this was a 3
Horrid Wilting DC 38. Save rolled for this was 2
He was an Int of 47 (Base score 18, +2 Elf, +4 level, +8 Mythic, +6 Headband, +2 Redeemed Succubus, +2 Iomedae, +5 Wish) I could be wrong if all of that adds up together, if I am let me know. He is also an Arcanist and expanded arcane points to increase the DC by +2.
Lochar |
Augmented Mythic Disintegrate creates two rays, which means it should have had two saves for partial, and two attack rolls (although with a touch of 11 that's pretty much fishing for 1s there)
Igramalash should have at least attempted to surge one of those saves for 1d10 extra.
Not sure where the +2 Iomedae Int is coming from, as she doesn't offer boons until after the Herald is killed or redeemed, as far as I can tell.
But low rolls suck big time. If your party is kicking that much ass, I'd almost suggest an x2 or x3 modifier on HP for the big bads.
Sloanzilla |
Shrug, ghosts in Skyrim are constantly thanking me for freeing them from their corrupted mortal flesh, and Skyrim ain't exactly sparkly.
I like my damnation mythos to have some culpability, but I suppose in a world with true resurrection there needs to be some very high levels of bad stuff happens to you. Still, if a guy was mind-washed into evil, he isn't really evil.
Being a good god herald does seem like a poor job duty, however. You are just immortal enough to not be exempt from the "no direct messing with mortals" rule, but not immortal enough to be able to handle the big dudes. It's like beating up someone's baby brother.
Tangent101 |
Skyrim and all of the Elder Scrolls game is a Mary Sue fest.
I say this as a huge fan of Skyrim and Oblivion, mind you.
So naturally ghosts will thank you and the like. And hey, in Second Darkness a ghost actually thanks you if you killed her undead lover as it frees her (and she helps you out before she finally leaves). So Golarion isn't completely dark and dire.