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Oracle of the Heavens. They can subtract the amount of HD from the monster equal to their Cha. modifier for determining the effects of illusion spells.
Awesome Display (Su): Your phantasmagoric displays accurately model the mysteries of the night sky, dumbfounding all who behold them. Each creature affected by your illusion (pattern) spells is treated as if its total number of Hit Dice were equal to its number of Hit Dice minus your Charisma modifier (if positive).
EX. Oracle with CHA. 18(+4) with 1 Sorcerer uses Color Spray on a 7HD creature. For the effects of the spell it counts as only 3 HD, and thus affected by Colorspray. Its a decidedly cheesy and lame tactic at low levels. We are leveling at our store with a gnome who does this and it makes boss fights incredibly anticlimactic. I hate it.
Basic Setup: Oracle 1/Sorcerer 1
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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Amathon, you will always have players spring stuff on you. I am still getting surprised by player tactics; I'd be disappointed if I weren't, actually.
At my final table at GenCon, a player explained that his sorcerer had learned a feat from Ultimate Magic that allowed him to use his bloodline ability on a target of his spells. We looked at his copy of the feat, made sure we understood its limitations (it has to be a spell that allows a saving throw, and it can delay a second-round save but not prevent one) and we were good.
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Amathon, you will always have players spring stuff on you. I am still getting surprised by player tactics; I'd be disappointed if I weren't, actually.
At my final table at GenCon, a player explained that his sorcerer had learned a feat from Ultimate Magic that allowed him to use his bloodline ability on a target of his spells. We looked at his copy of the feat, made sure we understood its limitations (it has to be a spell that allows a saving throw, and it can delay a second-round save but not prevent one) and we were good.
I'm not aware of the feat (and I checked and can't find it in UM), but there's also an item that is similar to the feat but works on spells with no saves (quite ridiculously when you use a spell like magic missile with laughing touch, I might add), so if you see a player throwing around spells with their bloodline abilities on them, it's important to figure out if they're using the item (limited uses per day, but can be used without a save) or this feat.
Venture-Captain, California—San Francisco Bay Area North & East
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Amathon, you will always have players spring stuff on you. I am still getting surprised by player tactics; I'd be disappointed if I weren't, actually.
At my final table at GenCon, a player explained that his sorcerer had learned a feat from Ultimate Magic that allowed him to use his bloodline ability on a target of his spells. We looked at his copy of the feat, made sure we understood its limitations (it has to be a spell that allows a saving throw, and it can delay a second-round save but not prevent one) and we were good.
Which also puts something on the player. If you have a build that relies on a strange chain of occurrences, be ready to explain it every step of the way, and support it with relevant book passages.
Chris allowed me a great example on the first game of the con. When my cold caster does her thing, it leaves the target dazed, entangled, slowed, and staggered, and deals a bit of damage. I then walked through how I got to each step of that, and was prepared to show books for it.
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Something I've seen a few GMs do is ask before the game if any of the PCs have crazy abilities or really high numbers that the GM should know about, so they can make sure they understand the details before the game actually starts. That way, you don't feel like you're interrupting the flow of the game if you ask them how they pulled something off in the middle of combat.
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Amathon, you will always have players spring stuff on you. I am still getting surprised by player tactics; I'd be disappointed if I weren't, actually.
At my final table at GenCon, a player explained that his sorcerer had learned a feat from Ultimate Magic that allowed him to use his bloodline ability on a target of his spells. We looked at his copy of the feat, made sure we understood its limitations (it has to be a spell that allows a saving throw, and it can delay a second-round save but not prevent one) and we were good.
Hi! It wasn't a feat - it was the Sorcerer's Robe from Ultimate Equipment.
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Oracle of the Heavens. They can subtract the amount of HD from the monster equal to their Cha. modifier for determining the effects of illusion spells.
So, a 11 HD monster can be treated as a lvl. 3? LOL. That's pretty rough.
I'm thinking of a 20 CHA Oracle with a +6 CHA belt, means a -8 HD. Enjoy the color spray. :)
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Absolutely! Thanks! My apologies for mis-remembering.
If it's the Sorcerer's Robe, then the two tidbits you mentioned aren't the case. The darn thing can be used on spells with no save, applying things like Laughing Touch without a save, and if you use Laughing Touch + Hideous Laughter, then if they fail the save, the Laughing Touch will prevent the 2nd round full-round action to attempt a save vs Hideous Laughter.
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Well, as to the first (Paizo), sometimes things slip through. The larger the system gets, the more likely different aspects will interact in unexpected ways. The same thing happened to 3.5 (do a google search for Pun-Pun). It might be changed in errata, or it might not. We'll see.
As to the second (PFS), the intent is to allow as much of the rules as make sense for the setting. Disallowing Oracle of Heavens, or disallowing a sorc multiclass, or ruling that the revelation only applies to Oracle spells, would be a ruling specific to the organized campaign. Campaign Management has stated that the less PFS-specific house rules the better.
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why does it matter if the spell comes from an Oracle list or the Sorcerer list?
Oracles of Heaven get Color Spray at 2nd level. And this ability isn't one of those where many different abilities get lost in the snow as they build new abilities. This was very specifically designed. It only really affects a few spells.
And as for the "lame" or "cheesy" thing, is if the player constantly does it, not letting other players shine while doing so.
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why does it matter if the spell comes from an Oracle list or the Sorcerer list?
Oracles of Heaven get Color Spray at 2nd level. And this ability isn't one of those where many different abilities get lost in the snow as they build new abilities. This was very specifically designed. It only really affects a few spells.
And as for the "lame" or "cheesy" thing, is if the player constantly does it, not letting other players shine while doing so.
Yes, I also just saw they get that as a level 2 spell, did not know that.
Zach W. wrote:
Its a decidedly cheesy and lame tactic at low levels
Why is it considered "cheesy" and "lame" when it's apparently 100% legal. If it's so game-breaking, why did Paizo/PFS allow it?
Paizo is not an omnipotent god, things will slip through, such as master summoner, which has since been banned. Sometimes the concept of something is very interesting but when combined with other mechanics of the game, it will become more than what it was intended for.
Another feat chain I usually disallow in homegames is the Dimensional Assault feat chain, but that is a discussion for another thread.
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RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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Well, as to the first (Paizo), sometimes things slip through. The larger the system gets, the more likely different aspects will interact in unexpected ways.
If you look at the Heavens oracle, it's pretty obvious that it's fully intended:
The revelation in question affects a very small subset of spells. I'm guessing fewer than 5 spells in the game. Not only that, but that mystery gives color spray as a mystery spell at 2nd level, so every single Heavens oracle ever is obviously intended to be casting color spray.I don't see how anyone could read the Heavens oracle and think that the color spray thing is unintentional.
EDIT: Ninja'd.
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why does it matter if the spell comes from an Oracle list or the Sorcerer list?
Doesn't matter to me at all. I was spitballing ways it might be "fixed" by house rule. I don't think it needs to be fixed, because it's not really that powerful. We have one in my home group who wishes he could retrain because 1) he has a hard time aiming that cone with all the melee characters in the group, and 2) my NPCs roll uncannily good saving throws. I guess it makes up for their horrible initiative rolls. :/
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Absolutely! Thanks! My apologies for mis-remembering.If it's the Sorcerer's Robe, then the two tidbits you mentioned aren't the case. The darn thing can be used on spells with no save, applying things like Laughing Touch without a save, and if you use Laughing Touch + Hideous Laughter, then if they fail the save, the Laughing Touch will prevent the 2nd round full-round action to attempt a save vs Hideous Laughter.
I was arguing on the second point for a little bit, but after a minute or so I figured it wasn't worth it and let Chris' interpretation stand. I was a bit tired anyway so I don't think I was making my case well.
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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If it's the Sorcerer's Robe, then the two tidbits you mentioned aren't the case. The darn thing can be used on spells with no save, applying things like Laughing Touch without a save, and if you use Laughing Touch + Hideous Laughter, then if they fail the save, the Laughing Touch will prevent the 2nd round full-round action to attempt a save vs Hideous Laughter.
Right on the requirement of a saving throw.
Iammars was indeed intending to combine laughing touch with hideous laughter. I ruled that the victim wouldn't get a saving throw on the second round, because he would be incapacitated at that point, but could postpone it till the third round.
The point being: he showed me the text, we looked over it (and got the saving throw thing wrong), made an adjudication of ists effectiveness, and moved on. It's not something a GM should worry too much about.
The problems arise when the player wants to surprise the GM with the combination in combat. Last month, a player at my table had a Cleric 1 / Druid 5, and he was used to casting the Growth domain power on his animal companion through Share Spells. It was a good thing he checked with me before gameplay started, because that doesn't fly, and tense combat is the wrong time to look up a bunch of rules, and a bad time to find out that the domain power you just tried to cast on your animal companion fizzles.
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Well, as to the first (Paizo), sometimes things slip through. The larger the system gets, the more likely different aspects will interact in unexpected ways.If you look at the Heavens oracle, it's pretty obvious that it's fully intended:
The revelation in question affects a very small subset of spells. I'm guessing fewer than 5 spells in the game. Not only that, but that mystery gives color spray as a mystery spell at 2nd level, so every single Heavens oracle ever is obviously intended to be casting color spray.I don't see how anyone could read the Heavens oracle and think that the color spray thing is unintentional.
EDIT: Ninja'd.
It is definitely intentional, but when we are in games with this Oracle, its basically just watching him run around and take control of everything. We dont really get to do much. Its not so much cheesy in the overpowered sense as it is cheesy in the fact that everyone simply runs around as his groupies. After the third module of him just sleeping the boss, it had gotten very boring.
Zach W. wrote:
Another feat chain I usually disallow in homegames is the Dimensional Assault feat chain, but that is a discussion for another thread.Bit of a derail, but I have to ask - why?
In society its really not that great. By the time you get it your retiring. In homegames though its obnoxious to have the arcane trickster DDooring through the dungeon, backstabbing everything because its flat footed, or not having to worry about tactics because he can flank with himself, getting his full BAB without having to even start in combat, or end in combat.
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Rereading the spell and your example with Color Spray, something sticks out at me.
Awesome Display (Su): Your phantasmagoric displays accurately model the mysteries of the night sky, dumbfounding all who behold them. Each creature affected by your illusion (pattern) spells is treated as if its total number of Hit Dice were equal to its number of Hit Dice minus your Charisma modifier (if positive).EX. Oracle with CHA. 18(+4) with 1 Sorcerer uses Color Spray on a 7HD creature. For the effects of the spell it counts as only 3 HD, and thus affected by Colorspray.
While I suspect your example fits the popular interpretation, it seems inconsistent. I did a quick search for this AD in the Rules section of Paizo and I saw this thread:
Orable's Awesome Display questions. Specifically this quote which many, if not all, agreed with:
The creature's saving throw remains unchanged.
In your example, all the revelation does is forcing the target to apply the (more severe) results should it fail its save.If Midnight Angel is correct, then I have to make an obvious observation that a creatures HD aren't reduced unless they are "affected" by the spell. Creatures above 4 HD are immune to Color Spray. I don't see how they can have their HD reduced before they are affected by the spell. It is logically inconsistent to say the spell does not affect their Saving Throw (which is HD dependent) but then reduces their HD to see if they are affected before they have to make saving throw to see if they are affected.
I put this out there, not because I'm convinced I'm right, but because I'm expecting some Paizo/PFS official has specifically said that the spell works as your example suggests. I would like to see that link so I know in the future.
5+ hit dice creatures are not immune to color spray. They are just normally only stunned for a single round.
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It is definitely intentional, but when we are in games with this Oracle, its basically just watching him run around and take control of everything. We dont really get to do much. Its not so much cheesy in the overpowered sense as it is cheesy in the fact that everyone simply runs around as his groupies. After the third module of him just sleeping the boss, it had gotten very boring.
I've experienced the same thing with a witch using slumber. And that can be used on every single enemy in every single encounter. Minions go down in one round, BBEG gets softened up with the evil eye first, then sleep & cdg by a martial the next round. 4 hour scenario turns into less than 2 hours of game time with little roll or role play for others.
I am really struggling to see how people have such a problem with Colour Spray. Yes it's a strong spell and you can keep it relevant with Awesome Display but the area it affects is tiny, a 15' cone is what, 6 squares. You are going to struggle to hit more than 1 or 2 opponents with it.
I think the issue is not that it's amazingly super-terrific. It's that all-or-nothing save-or-die effects are inherently kind of dull (either you succeed boringly or you fail boringly) and spamming the same one every single round is even less interesting. It's like reducing combat to "keep flipping a coin until you get heads".
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I am really struggling to see how people have such a problem with Colour Spray. Yes it's a strong spell and you can keep it relevant with Awesome Display but the area it affects is tiny, a 15' cone is what, 6 squares. You are going to struggle to hit more than 1 or 2 opponents with it.I think the issue is not that it's amazingly super-terrific. It's that all-or-nothing save-or-die effects are inherently kind of dull (either you succeed boringly or you fail boringly) and spamming the same one every single round is even less interesting. It's like reducing combat to "keep flipping a coin until you get heads".
This. And once you hit mid tier+ its not so much a problem anymore. The only gripe I have is it makes level 1-5 VERY dull for people if the monsters are just slept and then killed all in 1 to 2 rounds. My main character is a Cavlier, tower shield tank. I have not had to sit in the front for the first 5 scenarios, never even got swung on cause the mobs would be put down by the high initiative oracle. I just sat there. My fiance is a healer/undead bane cleric. She sat at each of those sessions for 3 hours each, never even cast a spell. Not so much over powered...just boring to the rest of the party.
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Oracle of the Heavens. They can subtract the amount of HD from the monster equal to their Cha. modifier for determining the effects of illusion spells.
Awesome Display (Su): Your phantasmagoric displays accurately model the mysteries of the night sky, dumbfounding all who behold them. Each creature affected by your illusion (pattern) spells is treated as if its total number of Hit Dice were equal to its number of Hit Dice minus your Charisma modifier (if positive).
EX. Oracle with CHA. 18(+4) with 1 Sorcerer uses Color Spray on a 7HD creature. For the effects of the spell it counts as only 3 HD, and thus affected by Colorspray. Its a decidedly cheesy and lame tactic at low levels. We are leveling at our store with a gnome who does this and it makes boss fights incredibly anticlimactic. I hate it.
Basic Setup: Oracle 1/Sorcerer 1
And if they are an Undead Bloodline Sorcerer they can colorspray corporeal undead that were once humanoids - it is lucky bards don't get colorspray or you'd have dirge bard oracle of heavens.
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I'm starting to take offense to some of these post...
Effective is not Broken. Cheesy of course is always on the table, but seriously working isn't broken. GM's make saving throws all the time.
Not having to sit through some of the fights at the end of certain PFS mods is not boring. It is preferable to being subject to alpha strikes by opponents and killed or nerfed into the ground. It is preferable having to deal with 2 or 3 layers of status effects that make a 20 minute combat take 2 hours.
Ending encounters quickly and efficiently lets the story have time to resolve itself, in character issues to be hashed out and paperwork to be completed properly in the time one normally has in a given play slot. Having to skip the conclusion of a module because the boss fight took too long is boring and makes the entire mod feel very unfulfilling.
Boss fights are usually not fun or excited. They traditionally are a huge pile of annoyance and frustration. If they were fun you'd think fewer people would be looking to end them as quickly as humanly possible.
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RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 8
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Boss fights are usually not fun or excited. They traditionally are a huge pile of annoyance and frustration. If they were fun you'd think fewer people would be looking to end them as quickly as humanly possible.
Wow. I disagree with this statement! More so than I originally thought I would.
Boss fights are supposed to be the best fights in the scenario. As a player, I don't remember the random ghouls, guards, or goblins on my way to fight the dragon, but I'll definitely remember the dragon. I take it as my mission as a GM to make the other fights finish quickly (one way or another) to give my table the chance to have a long, rewarding encounter at the end. Almost like the rest of the scenario was building to the final confrontation.
Admittedly, some scenarios lend themself to shorter BBEG fights, especially if they just turn tail and run (or dimension door off the map). But those with the glorious words -- "fights to the death" -- inspire me to make those inevitable deaths as magnificent as possible.
There's no talk of surrender, no time wasted on the notion of a cease-fire mid-combat. Damn the torpedoes and forgo your diplomacy rolls! PREPARE YOURSELVES FOR THE FIGHT OF A LIFETIME AND--oh.
I just rolled a 2 on that save. The bad guy passes out.
Witch cackles as a move action.
Yay.
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I can see it now...
Encounter starts - players glance up to see both monsters are liveing creatures, within 5 feet of each other and...
the Oracle of the Heavens steps forward to win the encounter again...OotH: "I step here and color spray the vile creatures!"
Judge rolls dice. freezes in shock. Double twenties showing on the save dice... "ah... the monsters step forward and full attack?"
Fighter player..."ah - what the heck was he out front for?!"
Wizard player..."Fireball coming on line!"
Rogue player..."Dang it! Who has my healing wand!? I've got UMD!"
Bard player...miming picking up fist sized object - "I make a Heal check, Is this a Spleen?"
That Colorspray needs some persistence.