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It is implied that monks of the empty hand shouldn't take improvised weapon penalties. But...
Weapon and Armor Proficiency
Monks of the empty hand are proficient with the shuriken only. A monk of the empty hand treats normal weapons as improvised weapons with the following equivalencies (substituting all of their statistics for the listed weapon): a light weapon functions as a light hammer, a one-handed weapon functions as a club, and a Two-handed weapon functions as a quarterstaff.
This replaces the normal monk weapon proficiencies.
Flurry of Blows (Ex)
Starting at 1st level, a monk of the empty hand can make a flurry of blows using any combination of unarmed strikes or attacks with an improvised weapon. He may not make a flurry of blows with any other weapons, including special monk weapons.
A monk of the empty hand’s flurry of blows otherwise functions as normal for a monk of his level.
...it doesn't actually say that he doesn't. It says that he uses real weapons as improvised and that he can use improvised weapon in flurry but it doesn't say anything about being proficient with them. It seems odd that the class doesn't grant proficiency, since that kind of seems like the point. Am I going to have to take the Catch Off-Guard feat or am I missing something?
Also, it talks about using real weapons as improvised while failing to mention how that monks abilities work with actual improvised weapons. For example, how much damage would a broken bottle do and ho does it factor in with the monks abilities? Would it be piercing damage? Is there anywhere I can find rules about the damage/abilities of certain improvised weapons, such as a chair, a carpet, a book, etc.?
a light weapon functions as a light hammer, a one-handed weapon functions as a club, and a Two-handed weapon functions as a quarterstaff.
You just look at the weapon the monk is using, ignore the stats for that weapon, and treat the damage/crit range, etc, as if it were the weapon substituted. So, if the monk picks up a Great Swore, he treats it as a quaterstaff for damage and crit range.
You still take the penalty for using a improvised weapon, as nothing in the archetype says you don't. I agree that's unfortunate, but it is called the Monk of the Empty Hand, not the Monk of hitting you w/ the table leg. :P
At 6th level you can take Improvised Weapon Mastery as a bonus feat, which will help a lot. Prior to that, just using bare fists is a better option.
Also, it talks about using real weapons as improvised while failing to mention how that monks abilities work with actual improvised weapons.
Real weapons are treated as improvised weapons. Improvised weapons are still treated as improvised weapons.
For example, how much damage would a broken bottle do and ho does it factor in with the monks abilities? Would it be piercing damage? Is there anywhere I can find rules about the damage/abilities of certain improvised weapons, such as a chair, a carpet, a book, etc.?
To determine the size category and appropriate damage for an improvised weapon, compare its relative size and damage potential to the weapon list to find a reasonable match. An improvised weapon scores a threat on a natural roll of 20 and deals double damage on a critical hit. An improvised thrown weapon has a range increment of 10 feet.
So for your broken bottle I would say it does damage as a dagger w/ piercing damage. This could fluctuate from table to table, but most things you use will be the equivalent to daggers, clubs, and large clubs.
Hope that helps. :)
The Monk of Hitting You With A Table Leg? That reminds me of a superhero-campaign PC I once ran who had studied martial arts in the pool-halls of Great Britain at the feet of the great British sensei, "No-Nose 'Arry", and the Scottish sifu, "Glasgow Grin McHeath".
Every superhero campaign needs a PC like that. :)
Am I going to have to take the Catch Off-Guard feat or am I missing something?
Yes, if you want to avoid penalties from using an improvised weapon, you'll need to take Catch Off-Guard. I suppose they could have gone the same route as the Tetori archetype (for instance) and said "You must use your level 1 monk bonus feat for Catch Off-Guard, no exceptions", but there's no particular advantage to doing it that way, IMO.
For example, how much damage would a broken bottle do and ho does it factor in with the monks abilities?
My interpretation is that a broken bottle would be a light weapon, and hence it would use do damage as a light hammer. As to the damage type, it's unclear, but I'd go with "bludgeoning or piercing".
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Re broken bottle, here's a handy d20modern table for improvised weapons
Re broken bottle, here's a handy d20modern table for improvised weapons
That's handy! Is there anything like this ruled into Pathfinder? Because if there isn't, using different improvised weapons from constantly varying environments would result in constant on the fly rulings from the GM. That would get annoying really fast.
This kind of arch type leads to lots of ruling questions about how many different improvised weapons would work. I was also wondering about using an alchemist fire as an improvised melee weapon, e.g smashing it on their face. Would they take the tiny weapon damage and the fire damage?
This arch type raises so many questions...
Can I used a two handed melee improvised weapon as part of a flurry? The weapon would naturally deal x1.5 STR damage, but I can see this as working because I can complete the rest of the flurry by not using my hands, like the monk entry describes.
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Alchemists fire would deal tiny weapon damage, for the impact of your hand behind it, and splash damage, but you would take it to IMO. I have no proof though. You could use a 2-handed imp. weapon in a flurry but you only add str. once because it is a flurry (Unless you have the dragon style feat chain).
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Per James Jacobs (not FAQ, but shows intent), they do not take the penalty as improvised weapons.
Dear James Jacobs:
True or false? Monks of the empty hand take a -4 penalty to attacks when wielding improvised weapons.
The monk of the empty hand treats improvised weapons as if she were proficient in them, and can wield normal weapons as improvised weapons. This effectively has the same end effect as the Catch Off-Guard feat, but isn't a feat and thus doesn't use up a feat slot since it's a variant class ability. Thus, they do not take a nonproficient penalty when using improvised weapons. The text is not as clear as it could have been, I guess, but hopefully common sense can step in to bolster that if someone doesn't read this post?
(We COULD have simply said, "The monk of the empty hand gains "Catch Off-Guard" as a bonus feat, I guess, but that would have lost the flavor bit about how they often wield normal weapons as improvised weapons.)
What ArmouredMonk13 said. You would at minimum take splash damage from using the alchemists fire like that, but I could see some GMs ruling you took it in total due to it being in your hand when it broke. Not sure what the "official" ruling would be though.
@Happler: I was unaware of that. Thanks. They should probably put that in a FAQ somewhere, b/c I would dare say most people don't check on 2 year old posts...
@IQuarent: So, looks like you may not need to worry about Catch-Off Guard depending on your GM...I'm still not sure how the weapon focus feats, etc, would work in this case, since you usually take that feat for one weapon (like greatsword or table leg?) not an entire weapon class (2-handed weapons or improvised weapons?)...so...maybe you'd have to take the feat for only one improvised weapon? Or all of them? Or none of them? I don't know. Have your GM read all this stuff and see what they say. :)
Per James Jacobs (not FAQ, but shows intent), they do not take the penalty as improvised weapons.
Dear James Jacobs:
True or false? Monks of the empty hand take a -4 penalty to attacks when wielding improvised weapons.
The monk of the empty hand treats improvised weapons as if she were proficient in them, and can wield normal weapons as improvised weapons. This effectively has the same end effect as the Catch Off-Guard feat, but isn't a feat and thus doesn't use up a feat slot since it's a variant class ability. Thus, they do not take a nonproficient penalty when using improvised weapons. The text is not as clear as it could have been, I guess, but hopefully common sense can step in to bolster that if someone doesn't read this post?
(We COULD have simply said, "The monk of the empty hand gains "Catch Off-Guard" as a bonus feat, I guess, but that would have lost the flavor bit about how they often wield normal weapons as improvised weapons.)
I really need to know whether to take the penalties or not. I makes a big difference to the build. I like catch off-guard because it is in the monk feat tree and it makes improvised weapons always strike at flat-footed AC. If I don't know whether or not I have the penalties, I can't make my character.
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This kind of arch type leads to lots of ruling questions about how many different improvised weapons would work. I was also wondering about using an alchemist fire as an improvised melee weapon, e.g smashing it on their face. Would they take the tiny weapon damage and the fire damage?
This arch type raises so many questions...
Can I used a two handed melee improvised weapon as part of a flurry? The weapon would naturally deal x1.5 STR damage, but I can see this as working because I can complete the rest of the flurry by not using my hands, like the monk entry describes.
Since the monk of the empty hand's flurry states:
Flurry of Blows (Ex): Starting at 1st level, a monk of the empty hand can make a flurry of blows using any combination of unarmed strikes or attacks with an improvised weapon. He may not make a flurry of blows with any other weapons, including special monk weapons. A monk of the empty hand's flurry of blows otherwise functions as normal for a monk of his level.
you have to take into account this line from the normal flurry:
A monk applies his full Strength bonus to his damage rolls for all successful attacks made with flurry of blows, whether the attacks are made with an off-hand or with a weapon wielded in both hands.
So, a monk of the empty hand, wielding a two handed melee improvised weapon, would only deal x1 str and not x1.5 str damage.
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I really need to know whether to take the penalties or not. I makes a big difference to the build. I like catch off-guard because it is in the monk feat tree and it makes improvised weapons always strike at flat-footed AC. If I don't know whether or not I have the penalties, I can't make my character.Per James Jacobs (not FAQ, but shows intent), they do not take the penalty as improvised weapons.
Dear James Jacobs:
True or false? Monks of the empty hand take a -4 penalty to attacks when wielding improvised weapons.
The monk of the empty hand treats improvised weapons as if she were proficient in them, and can wield normal weapons as improvised weapons. This effectively has the same end effect as the Catch Off-Guard feat, but isn't a feat and thus doesn't use up a feat slot since it's a variant class ability. Thus, they do not take a nonproficient penalty when using improvised weapons. The text is not as clear as it could have been, I guess, but hopefully common sense can step in to bolster that if someone doesn't read this post?
(We COULD have simply said, "The monk of the empty hand gains "Catch Off-Guard" as a bonus feat, I guess, but that would have lost the flavor bit about how they often wield normal weapons as improvised weapons.)
going off this, if this was a game I was running, I would say no penalties (not 100% sure on PFS though, I would think it would be the same).
I did FAQ the initial question though in hopes of getting it added to the FAQ.
It sounds like this topic really needs or be well fleshed out. If there is no final ruling about whether he takes the penalties or not, or rulings on how different improvised weapons would work(e.g examples of weapons like in this link)d20modern table for improvised weapons
then this character will slow the game to a crawl and will essentially by unplayable.
(This character is going to be used for PFS)
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It sounds like this topic really needs or be well fleshed out. If there is no final ruling about whether he takes the penalties or not, or rulings on how different improvised weapons would work(e.g examples of weapons like in this link)d20modern table for improvised weapons
then this character will slow the game to a crawl and will essentially by unplayable.(This character is going to be used for PFS)
I would be tempted to ask this in the PFS boards then.
Or just wait to see if it gets an official answer or FAQ.
Also, one thing I was starting to get worried about as I looked at the arch type was how to use items in the environment. I was planning on using a prehensile tail/grasping tail (tiefling) to grab weapons and put them in my hand without having to pick them up, but even with that squared away, a bunch of other problems come up, too.
For example, how durable are these objects? Would a bottle break the first time it's used as a weapon? What about other items? A much simpler solution would be to give the items the fragile weapon quality... But the fragile weapon quality is really not that fragile. A natural one has to be rolled in order for it to be broken, and then ANOTHER natural one has to be rolled to destroy it. That seems very unrealistic. However, the alternatives would be really annoying and complicated. One alternative might be that the damage done with the weapon is also damage done to the weapon, but then hardness and hit points would have to calculated for every random item that's picked up. That would be a complete b*%#*.
The thing I was really worried about, though, would be using part of an object as a weapon; say a table leg. I imagine the GM saying "Oh you want to use the table leg? Make a sunder attempt." Or a tree branch; "You want to rip the branch off the tree? Sunder attempt." Using a standard action to MAYBE get an improvised item would never, ever, be worth it.
Man, I just wanted to make a fun character. I never thought this would be such a pain in the butt.
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Can I used a two handed melee improvised weapon as part of a flurry? The weapon would naturally deal x1.5 STR damage, but I can see this as working because I can complete the rest of the flurry by not using my hands, like the monk entry describes.
Just as a quick note, Monks only get STR, not STR x1.5, when flurrying, even with a two-handed weapon. The Monk of the Empty Hand's flurry doesn't change this.
If you were playing in a home game a lot of this would probably be house ruled to simplify it. For a PFS game you absolutely need to find out their rules b/c they are very rigid in their rulings.
EDIT: So I second checking the PFS rules board.
Yeah, it sounds like this really needs an FAQ. If the intention was for Empty Hand Monks to take no penalties with any weapon, the rules sure don't show it. At all.
Also, am I right in assuming that Empty Hand Monks can't get slashing or piercing damage unless they use a "true" improvised weapon? Otherwise they're stuck with hammer/staff/club.