Just set your mount to defend you in the morning (or at the start of the dungeon) When it sees you whacking a gnoll in the head it will get the idea.
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Doing some research, it appears that handle animal is not mentioned at all in the Ride skill description:
Specifically, it calls out directing your combat-trained mount to attack:
Fight with a Combat-Trained Mount: If you direct your war-trained mount to attack in battle, you can still make your own attack or attacks normally. This usage is a free action.
This is a dc10 ride check.
The second post hear has an assertion that this is the case:
Design Manager
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Doing some research, it appears that handle animal is not mentioned at all in the Ride skill description:
Specifically, it calls out directing your combat-trained mount to attack:
Fight with a Combat-Trained Mount: If you direct your war-trained mount to attack in battle, you can still make your own attack or attacks normally. This usage is a free action.This is a dc10 ride check.
The second post hear has an assertion that this is the case:
I will point out, for the sake of noting that this really should be FAQ'd, that nothing in the above-mentioned Ride check actually says that you can use it to command your mount. All that the check says is that if you command your mount to attack, you can still make your own attacks normally with a DC 10 Ride check. Currently, the only way given to command your mount to make that attack, is a Handle Animal check.
The Mounted Combat rules in general need an address...though I'm a little worried for it at the same time. They seem to be headed in a similar direction as some other areas in PF--more tiny rules.
We need clarification more. :/
In the book, the handle animal skill description only says you need to make checks to teach an animal the tricks it would need to know, and once it's been trained, I don't believe you need to make further checks to get it to do those tricks you've taught it. You just give it the command to perform that trick.
Teach an Animal a Trick: You can teach an animal a specific trick with 1 week of work and a successful Handle Animal check against the indicated DC.
Attack (DC 20): The animal attacks apparent enemies. You may point to a particular creature that you wish the animal to attack, and it will comply if able. Normally, an animal will attack only humanoids, monstrous humanoids, giants, or other animals. Teaching an animal to attack all creatures (including such unnatural creatures as undead and aberrations) counts as two tricks.
I would think that if it's a combat trained mount, then it's trained to attack in combat without you having to do any more than command it to perform the "attack" trick it already knows. Handle animal would only be used to teach it that trick yourself, if it doesn't already know it.
On the other hand, I'd think that if it's not a trained mount (you've managed to jump on the back of an attacking beast and are riding it around) it would just attack as it normally would. You just have to make ride checks to stay on, or possibly use a handle animal check to make it attack a specific target or obey some other reasonable command.
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In the book, the handle animal skill description only says you need to make checks to teach an animal the tricks it would need to know, and once it's been trained, I don't believe you need to make further checks to get it to do those tricks you've taught it.
You've cited the fourth and fifth paragraphs of the skill but skipped the second:
Handle an Animal: This task involves commanding an animal to perform a task or trick that it knows .. If your check succeeds, the animal performs the task or trick on its next action.
I would think that if it's a combat trained mount, then it's trained to attack in combat without you having to do any more than command it to perform the "attack" trick it already knows.
Yes. You give that command by making a Handle Animal skill check.
I have to lean to the side that Ride trumps Handle Animal when you are mounted. The Monk doesn't even get Handle Animal as a class skill, but he gets Ride.
Giving commands while riding or controling your mount seems to be a lot different, to me, than getting an animal to do something when you are not riding it.
For a Paladin or Fighter to be a good "Knight" type character they would have to use both their skill points for one thing. It seems to much for me.
But, as with many things, the rules are not 100% clear and I see the point of those that think Handle Animal is the key.
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For a Paladin or Fighter to be a good "Knight" type character they would have to use both their skill points for one thing. It seems to much for me.
Barring a highly unusual build, a 5th level paladin with 1 rank in Handle Animal automatically passes checks to order her mount to perform a trick that it knows (rank +1, CHA +3 or more, class skill +3, link +4). The only reason she needs 1 rank is that Handle Animal is trained only.
A fighter is not a good Knight type character, because his mount won't get any better as he advances and will become a smear when hit by level-appropriate attacks.
Don't forget that the Paladin's mount (through the divine bond) has a higher Int and therefore understands one language which should at least make it easier to command (circumstance bonus on the HA check?) and later on becomes a magical beast which doesn't need to be handled at all anymore since it does not have tricks.
So if you choose not to go into mounted combat before level 11 even the 1 rank is not necessary (or you can retrain it if your GM incorporates these rules).
But isn't handle animal specifically for creatures with Int 1 or 2, for creatures with Int 3 and above you should use diplomacy or intimidate. (not sure about source - sort of a vague memory).
Also the trained only part of handle animal only goes for training animals, you can command or push an animal with a charisma check.
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I have to lean to the side that Ride trumps Handle Animal when you are mounted. The Monk doesn't even get Handle Animal as a class skill, but he gets Ride.
Giving commands while riding or controling your mount seems to be a lot different, to me, than getting an animal to do something when you are not riding it.
For a Paladin or Fighter to be a good "Knight" type character they would have to use both their skill points for one thing. It seems to much for me.
But, as with many things, the rules are not 100% clear and I see the point of those that think Handle Animal is the key.
On the other hand, Cavaliers and Rangers get both skills and more skill points (and associated bonuses to using those skills). This might be a clue.
Don: no, Animals with high intelligence are still subject to Handle Animal. I believe that was clarified in Animal Archive (and a blog post related to that book)
edit: http://paizo.com/paizo/blog/v5748dyo5lejb?Animals-and-Their-Tricks
So if it has the type Animal (or Int 1 or 2), you use handle animal. That's what I got from the link - good clarification.
With this - as to the original question:
Ordering your mount to attack requires the use of handle animal and a move(command) or full round action(push)* to accomplish. And ride is not a valid substitute.
Is that the answer? Is that an answer?
*not counting special abilities to do this in reduced time.
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Design Manager
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Don't forget that the Paladin's mount (through the divine bond) has a higher Int and therefore understands one language which should at least make it easier to command (circumstance bonus on the HA check?) and later on becomes a magical beast which doesn't need to be handled at all anymore since it does not have tricks.
So if you choose not to go into mounted combat before level 11 even the 1 rank is not necessary (or you can retrain it if your GM incorporates these rules).
Just wanted to point out, the Paladin's mount never actualy becomes a magical beast, it just becomes one "for the purposes of determining which spells affect it". So the Paladin pretty much always needs at least that 1 rank in Handle Animal.
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Design Manager
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Having your animal know a trick doesn't obviate the need to make Handle animal checks, it just lowers the action type and check necessary for them to perform it. An animal who doesn't know a trick has to be pushed, a DC 25 check, while getting an animal to perform a trick it knows still requires a DC 10 (or 12 if it's injured) Handle Animal check.
"Handle an Animal: This task involves commanding an animal to perform a task or trick that it knows. If the animal is wounded or has taken any nonlethal damage or ability score damage, the DC increases by 2. If your check succeeds, the animal performs the task or trick on its next action."
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Design Manager
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Untrained: If you have no ranks in Handle Animal, you can use a Charisma check to handle and push domestic animals, but you can't teach, rear, or train animals. A druid or ranger with no ranks in Handle Animal can use a Charisma check to handle and push her animal companion, but she can't teach, rear, or train other nondomestic animals.I think this extends to a Paladin and her mount as well.
Probably so. Does lower your odds of successfully pulling it off if you don't spend that rank, and you do still need to make the check. But you are right in that you definitely don't have to be trained if you're a Ranger or Druid, and that that coverage probably extends to the Paladin as well.
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from ride
Control Mount in Battle: As a move action, you can attempt
to control a light horse, pony, heavy horse, or other mount
not trained for combat riding while in battle. If you fail the
Ride check, you can do nothing else in that round. You do
not need to roll for horses or ponies trained for combat.
From Mounted Combat
Mounts in Combat: Horses, ponies, and riding dogs
can serve readily as combat steeds. Mounts that do not
possess combat training (see the Handle Animal skill)
are frightened by combat. If you don’t dismount, you must
make a DC 20 Ride check each round as a move action
to control such a mount. If you succeed, you can perform
a standard action after the move action. If you fail, the
move action becomes a full-round action, and you can’t do
anything else until your next turn.
Your mount acts on your initiative count as you direct it.
Nothing in there about needing a check for a combat trained mount.
I don't think that I agree with you Ssalarn.
Ride: Control Mount in Battle: As a move action, you can attempt to control a light horse, pony, heavy horse, or other mount not trained for combat riding while in battle. If you fail the Ride check, you can do nothing else in that round. You do not need to roll for horses or ponies trained for combat.
Based on my understanding of your understanding, this part from ride would mean that the use of the ride skill would only allow you to use the handle animal skill to actually control the mount. Am I correct in understanding your understanding?
I really think that ride is meant to control mounts that you are riding. Handle animal, in my opinion, is for training animals, mounts included, and for controlling animals that you are not riding.
And it would be a move action to control the mount with handle animal, wouldn't it? With that in mind, how could you ever charge, make a full attack or use any number of the mounted feats? You couldn't even make a full-attack with ranged weapons except in a very few cases because getting your mount to change direction would be a move action, wouldn't it?
Could I not control my mount to move and attack, draw my weapon and attack with the mount in the same round (no Quick Draw of course)?
Controlling the mount: Move action
Drawing the weapon: Move action
Attack: Standard-ish action (more than 5' movement rules for mounts)
So that would be to many actions for what I assume most of us feel is possible while mounted.
The only thing that makes sense to me, rules wise, is to replace the handle animal check with the ride rules, while mounted. It makes no sense that you would have to make a ride check so that you could make a handle animal check or vise-versa.
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Design Manager
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I disagree. Ride check covers how well you can stay on your mount. Mounts are skittish in battle and the "controlling" granted by the section you referenced is both
a)specifically referencing non-combat trained mounts which aren't trained to be in combat
and
b) referring to the consequences of you failing that check, i.e. you cannot do anything, but stay seated on your mount.
It has nothing to do with commanding your mount to attack or perform tricks.
A character without handle animal can use the ride skill to make his mount move about as he pleases, and can use his ranks to ensure that while his mount is moving about, he isn't suffering any penalties.
If he wants to make his mount do things other than carry him about, like Attack, Defend, etc. He needs to make a Handle Animal check to do so.
You aren't making Ride Checks so you cando a Handle Animal check or vice versa, they cover two completely different things.
Ride- You move about on your mount guiding it with reins, kness, etc.
Handle Animal- You have your mount perform actions independent of your shared movement, i.e. Attack, Track, or most other tricks noted under the Handle Animal skill.
Than what does control mean under Ride - control mount in battle? The check is only required for untrained mounts, but the effect (controlling your mount in battle) is automatic for trained mounts.
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Design Manager
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Than what does control mean under Ride - control mount in battle? The check is only required for untrained mounts, but the effect (controlling your mount in battle) is automatic for trained mounts.
It means the ability to make your mount go where you want it to go. IF your mount isn't trained for combatand you haul it into the melee, it takes extra effort on your part just to make the mount do anything other than dash for safety. That's why you burn your move wrestling the reins, or potentially your entire full round action, to make the horse do crazy things like run towards the bloodthirsty troll your horse knows damn well it wants nothing to do with.
Combat Training itself is nothing but a packet of Handle Animal tricks:
•Combat Training (DC 20): An animal trained to bear a rider into combat knows the tricks attack, come, defend, down, guard, and heel. Training an animal for combat riding takes 6 weeks. You may also “upgrade” an animal trained for riding to one trained for combat by spending 3 weeks and making a successful DC 20 Handle Animal check. The new general purpose and tricks completely replace the animal's previous purpose and any tricks it once knew. Many horses and riding dogs are trained in this way.
Once more, Ride covers your ability to do things while bouncing around on the back of that four-legged beastie; the better a rider you are, the less effort it takes to keep the mount going where you want it to go.
Handle Animal covers the animal actually doing things, like utilizing its feats and performing tricks like Attack and Defend, things that don't fall within the scope of you taking actions while sitting on its back, but that actually require the animal to do something other than move in the direction of your choice.
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Than what does control mean under Ride - control mount in battle? The check is only required for untrained mounts, but the effect (controlling your mount in battle) is automatic for trained mounts.
To control your mount technically has nothing to do with your mount. Yes you are controlling your mount, but the purpose of this skill is allow the rider to take his/her actions. You control your mount enough so that you can act normally, otherwise you are trying to hold on for dear life as it is moving about the battlefield. A combat trained animal knows to attack when you give it the order. And if you are mounted on this combat trained animal you need to hold on so you do not fall off and get left behind. So you make your ride check to hold on (control mount).